AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 13 December 1946.)
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, in order to substantiate the position of the defendant Sievers and his concern with the Ahnenerbe, I now ask the Tribunal to turn to page 12 in the Document Book, which is Doc. 3546-PS which has been previously introduced by Mr. McHaney as exhibit 123. I have put this document in the Document Book for the convenience of the Tribunal, the translation into English.
We will turn to page 11 of the Document Book under "22 February, 1330 hours to 1500 hours. Article ** Conference with Dr. Habil. Ed. May, (b) Collaboration with Dr. Ploetner and Prof. Schilling."
THE TRIBUNAL (Judge Sebring): Just a moment sir. I haven't located it, will you repeat that again, sir.
MR. HARDY: Under date of 22 February, page 14.
THE TRIBUNAL (Judge Sebring): Name the page.
MR. HARDY: 14 of your Honor's Document Book. At the bottom of the page under the date of 22 February - two lines up from the bottom, number 2, "Conference with Dr. Habil. Ed. May, b) Collaboration with Dr. Ploetner and Prof. Schilling."... Ploetner is one of the doctors who assisted Schilling in his work at Dachau. Now turn to page 19 of your Honor's Document Book. Under the date of 31 May we see "SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ploetner. 1. Decree of Reichsarzt SS concerning collaboration with Prof. Schilling."... Which indicates that not only Himmler personally was interested in Schilling's works, but here Dr. Grawitz decrees that all shall collaborate with Prof. Schilling. Turn to the next page - top of the page. "3. Visit to Prof. Schilling: Discussion about limiting SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner's activities after his transfer to the AE"... Which is presumably Ahnenerbe. That is all the mention that is made to malaria experiments in Sievers" diary in 1944 and these important bits of evidence will establish Sievers' position in many murders of hundreds in experiments at Dachau.
A few days ago Prosecution pointed out the WVHA - that is Economic and Administrative Division under Oswall Pohl -- also played a leading roll in this experimental plant in that they supplied fortunate victims placed at the disposal of various physicians and scientists conducting experiments at various concentration camps.
I now introduce document NO-065 which is an affidavit of Oswald Pohl and is offered in evidence as exhibit 127.
THE TRIBUNAL: (Judge Sebring) On what page is that?
MR. HARDY: That is page 26 of your Honor's Document Book. This affidavit refers to several experiments which we will deal with its presentation. At this time I will read the affidavit.
Medical Experiments General Medical experiments were conducted by order of Himmler.
Representatives of the medical profession who knew how to sell him a medical problem as extremely important or had good friends to intervene for them, ...
DR. KARL HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, I object to the reading of this affidavit as far as it has to do with my client. My client is mentioned in so far as experiments of Ma*aus are concerned. Pohl is here in the Nurnberg prison and is available at all times for testimony. His testimony on the subject of the experiments which concern my client is so unclear that I would like to cross examine him under all circumstances. I, therefore, request that this document be not read.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I would like very vigorously to object to his motion to exclude the affidavit secured from Oswald Pohl. In the first place Ordnance No. 7 clearly provides that affidavits are permissable before this Tribunal and the availability of the witness is not set up as a rule for determination of it. It is true that Pohl is now in the Nurnberg jail. However, this man will be indicted and tried in this same Court. Prosecution does not wish to call him as a witness.
If the Defense Attorney wishes to call Pohl for cross examination to the extent he desires regarding the statement made hereby shown, that is his privilege. We may at a later stage of the trial bring Pohl to the stand to testify on other matters of a more general nature than set forth in this affidavit. However, we are not prepared to call him at this time and I would request the over-rule of this objection on the grounds of his availability here.
They man call Pohl for cross examination if they so wish as to any statement made in the affidavit but I do not see that runs against the admissibility of our document.
DR. KARL HOFFMAN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, if Pohl is available at another time then I will take back my motion.
DR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please I do not wish to be understood as making any hard and fast committment that we will or will not call Pohl as a witness for the Prosecution. We may do so but we have not finally decided that matter. Anyway, the witness Pohl will be available for cross examination as to any matter contained in this affidavit at any time and if we do not call him then, of course, the Defense Attorney for the defendant Pokorny may avail himself of the right to call Pohl to the stand.
DR. KARL HOFFMAN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, it will depend on the testimony of Pohl whether it can be ascertained that experiments were made with the medicament which is charged to my client or not. You will find in the document that Pohl does not express himself clearly. Thus I shall need Pohl in any circumstances and I shall take back my motion only if I have the right to call him as a witness at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection to the admission of the affidavit at this time is overruled. It will be understood, according to the statement by the Prosecution, that Pohl will be available to be called as a witness by the defendant.
MR. HARDY: I shall read the affidavit:
General. Medical experiments were conducted by order of Himmler. Representatives of the medical profession who knew how to sell him a medical problem as extremely important or who had good friends to intervene for them, could easily arouse his interest, though Himmerler himself did not possess any more medical knowledge than any educated layman. He had, however, an ample opportunity to talk about those problems with the doctors on his staff and in his immediate environment, and he probably did so. (Grawitz, Gebhardt, Brandt, Conti and others).
When he was interested in a project he did all within his power to aid the medical men and kept in close contact with the problems and personally watched the progress of the project.
When prisoners were provided for an experiment, the order usually was sent to the Inspection department, later also to me. But I don't think it impossible that, in addition to the above, orders were sent directly to the camp commanders, otherwise I would have known of more experiments than those described below.
After I protested in 1944 against the delivery of prisoners for this purpose as this prevented their use for work, Himmler made Grawitz his representative for the execution of medical experiments.
From this time on it was Grawitz' duty to supervise all the experiments ordered by Himmler and to report about them, but this does not mean that Himmler reduced his personal participation.
Special. The following experiments because known to me in the period from April 1942 until the end of 1944, the time when the Inspection department belonged to the WVHA.
1. Schilling: These projects are probably known for quite a while through the trial of Schilling. During one of my visits in Dachau, Schilling, whom I had not known before, had shown me his establishment and told me all sorts of things about malaria and malaria mosquitoes.
I think this was the largest experiment. It was also on this occasion that I decided to send my protest to Himmler, because Schilling continuously asked for prisoners. I can not say the exact number that were sent to him.
2. Rascher; I became aware of these experiments through the written orders of Himmler to me. The prisoners were sent to Dachau. The experiments also took place there. On the occasion of one of his visits to Munich, Himmler took me with him to watch one of these experiments.
We saw an airplane cockpit and eventually a prisoner sat in it. Then the cockpit was put under the diminished air pressure and Rascher observed this through a glass window. Afterwards the person experimented upon was brought to Rascher's study where he was asked questions by Rascher. The prisoner answered those first questions as if in a stupor until after a certain time his full senses of perception were restored. I did not see any other experiments of Rascher. Neither did I select the prostitutes for his cooling experiments. They probably came from Ravensbruck.
3. Klauberg (or Glauberg). I met him at a dinner in the Fuehrerhaus in Auschwitz. He was introduced to me, but I did not speak with him about his experiments. I was not present at the organization of his experiments, but I had heard previously from Gluecks that Klauberg was working on sterilization.
Gluecks was a subordinate of Oswald Pohl.
I declined Klauberg's invitation to see his experiments.
4. Sievers (Ahnenerbe). I heard for the first time about it in Berlin on occasion of Sievers' visit with me. Evidently at that time the experiments were finished. Sievers came to find out from me about the possibilities for manufacturing of medicine. I mentioned the Deutsche Heilmittel GMBH (German Medical Corporation, Ltd.) in Prag which belonged to the German plants, managed by Oberfuehrer Baier of my staff. I recommended Sievers to go to him. The medicine had been manufactured later in Schlachters (Black Forest). Sievers told me the following: The 'Ahnenerbe', whose manager was Sievers, had developed in Dachau a medicine which quickly brought coagulation of blood. It was enormously important for our army because it prevented continual bleeding.
It was the result of experiments in Dachau dying which a prisoner was fired upon. A prisoner in Dachau, a specialist in the field, took an important part in the discovery of this medicine.
5. Hassmeyer. An Oberarzt (head physician) in the medical institution in Hohenlychen, received from Himmler permission to carry out experiments with tuberculoses. I sent him to Gluecks who put the necessary persons to experiment upon at his disposal. He received about ten orphan children who probably came from Auschwitz. The experiments took place in Neuengamme. Later I saw a paper on these experiments which was written for Himmler. But it was written in such a scientific way that I did not understand a thing.
6. Madaus. Worked in Radebeul on a sterilization drug. The Schweigrohr plant was needed for its preparation. As this plant grows mainly in North America, Himmler charged me to arrange for its cultivation in Germany. Himmler evedently meant the medical plants division of the Herb Garden in Dachau, which belonged to my administration.
The contract with Madaus was made through the doctor at Lolling's Inspection department.
Madaus, assisted by Dr. Koch, considered Dachau unsuitable; therefore, he invited us to visit Radebeul and to start the cultivation there. During this visit we were shown the premises and experiments with animals in the laboratory. I am not sure that these were experiments with the Schweigrohr medicine, but I presume that this was the case. A hothouse was needed for the cultivation of this plant in Radebeul, and therefore Dr. Koch asked for my help in getting it. I promised him to report this business to Himmler, who granted his request.
To what extent they were successful with the cultivation of the plant and whether it resulted in the mass production of the medicine and to experiments with human beings, I don't know. especially because from then on all further details were taken care of by Lolling alone.
7. Lost. I can't remember whether experiments took place in this case at all, because also, other offices were participating in such experiments. It is, of course, possible. I don't know either whether the bombs which I saw during my visit in the I.G. Farben (Chemical Trust) factory Byrrenfurt near Breslau (I was invited there by Dr. Ambrose) were filled with gas made out of Lost.
Conclusion: I have taken pains to do my best to describe what has stuck in my memory. I did not have any direct information about most of the experiments. The prisoners who were set aside (abgestellt) for the experiments appeared in the monthly reports from Lolling's office as one number, and they were divided among 40 different experiments.
I found this out in 1944 through Lolling. If I am not mistaken, the number of prisoners set aside for this purpose tatalled about 350-400. I tried time and again to make this number lower; in the first place, I admit, because I wanted to use the prisoners for work. This brought about a personal intervention by Himmler who personally ordered the presentation of the prisoners, e.g., in the case of Schilling.
My personal attitude toward the medical experiments with living human beings is the same as of any moral person. But I have not seen clearly the dimensions of these experiments -- and being an outsider, I could not see the extent of their danger. In my heart I was against the method of Himmler.
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for defendant Karl Brand): Mr. President, I can not see if the document has been sworn to. The phototstatic copy which I have received just now does not contain any note either that it has been sworn to. After Pohl's signature there is a number, "14/7" which I understand to mean 14 July. In the copy has been added "Sworn to and signed 23. June." Perhaps the Prosecutor could explain this to us. If the document has not been sworn to, then I ask that it be withdrawn.
MR. HARDY: I can fully explain the condition, Your Honor. This document was written by Oswald Pohl in his cell in his own handwriting, and when he finished writing it, it was 14 June. Then, after he had written the document, he waited several days before he was called for an interrogation, and at the time he was called for the interrogation he presented the document to Walter Rapp, Chief of our Evidence Division, and at that time Mr. Rapp took his oath and had the document sworn to.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I believe that this is a mistake. He has signed it in July, and supposedly he has sworn to it in June. Therefore, there must be a typographical error.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me. I did not notice that discrepance. It is obviously a typographical error. It was sworn to in July, the same date it was written. The reason for the difference between the 14th and 23rd was the time he was called from his cell.
DR. SERVATIUS: Then, may I request that the original be presented.
JUDGE SEBRING: Is it your assertion that the words "Sworn to and signed before me this 23rd of June 1946 in Nurnberg, Germany" should read 23rd of July?
MR. HARDY: To comply with the actual affidavit, yes, sir. 23rd of July.
THE PRESIDENT: The original document as submitted to the Tribunal shows no jurat.
MR. HARDY: May I see the document, your Honor?
Obviously, your Honor, the jurat isn't on the document and I request that we will retain the document and have it sworn to at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: The offer of the exhibit will be withdrawn at this time.
MR. HARDY: The question arose this morning - the defense counsel crossed Mr. McHaney's presentation of the admission of Document 2428-PS. At this time I have another section of that document to present to the Tribunal which is the testimony of Marion Dobrowski and at this time I wish to present to the. Tribunal the actual documents themselves which were presented in evidence to the IMT as Great Britain Exhibit 582. I must request that the Tribunal return them immediately as they are part of the original record of IMT and are being sent to the Library of Congress and I have signed for them only to be returned this evening. This is, you will see, an official report which has a cover sheet "Confidential Report of the Atrocities Committed at the Dachau Concentration Camp". It is in three volumes - two of them were upstairs and were obviously put into evidence. These volumes are numbered 25 to 27 and was a report of War Crimes Investigation Team # 6823. At this time I wish to call...
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. In connection with this exhibit which has just been offered. It may be admitted if a photostatic copy of the pertinent parts, including the confidential cover, will be substituted promptly.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel, can you point out in these document books where the affidavits are that you now have.
MR. HARDY: Yes, sir, Just a moment.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you hand up the other book, please?
DR. FLEMMING (defense counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky): I have been informed that these are Volumes 2 and 3 and that there still is a Volume 1 it is stated in the introduction how the commission carried out these interrogations and how it was organized.
This Volume 1 is, however, not available anymore to the Tribunal. I am therefore of the opinion that without the presentation of Volume 1 - without the possibility of determining how the commission was organized which carried out these interrogations and what was the assignment of the commission it cannot be determined any more if the affidavits contained in these two columns can be regarded as documents in accordance with the Charter. In addition to this, a large part of the documents have not been signed because those who were to have signed them were unable to sign the documents.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal. In this connection obviously the defense counsel knows what has happened to # 1. I sent up to the IMT Document Room and asked them to send down this exhibit. This is what they sent. I didn't know # 1 was not there. However, at this time I am only asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of this document and not admit it as an exhibit. Article 9 of Ordnance 7 states: "The tribunals shall not require proof of facts of common knowlege but shall take judicial notice thereof. They shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of any of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various Allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and the records and findings of military or other tribunals of any of the United Nations". This says that "the tribunals shall..." Now, this particular report is an official report of an army investigation team for war crimes and I submit that to the Tribunal for consideration.
DR. FLEMMING: If the report is the report of an officially recognized committee it could only be determined if Volume 1 was available. Volume 1 several days ago does not exist. When Attorney Pelckmann wanted to look at it, it was not available either. However, he knows that the three volumes, as he informed me, were never submitted in their entirety before the IMT. I therefore request the Tribunal to also examine this question: If the three volumes were not submitted in their entirety to the IMT these two volumes, in my opinion, cannot be used without Volume 1 at this time.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, may I point out that it is my opinion in answer the accusation that this is not an official committe I feel very strongly that the United States Army is an official organization and they set put these investigation teams particularly for this purpose.
These volumes are the result of their work. If you will read the top section of the affidavit you will see the amount of work that they went through to procure these affidavits and the caution they took. I also submit the fact that this has been introduced before the IMT, is in the evidence of IMT, and a. record of IMT, and under Article IX I ask that the Tribunal take judicial notice of these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection will be overruled. The certified copies may be filed before the Tribunal. The certified copies should carefully show the volume and page of each exhibit and also refer to the document book by appropriate number.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, you Honor. In due course I shall submit certified copies.
At this time I wish you would refer to Page 31 of your Honor's document book in connection with this affidavit. This is an affidavit of Marion Dobrowski.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: As I understand it the affidavit appearing on page 29, is a true multigraphed copy of an excerpt taken from the confidential report of the Atrocities Committee at the Dachau Concentration Camp: is that true?
MR. HARDY: That is correct, Your Honor, And certified by the Chief of our document center.
JUDGE SEBRING: That appears there as Exhibit 32, is that not correct?
MR. HARDY: Not, it is Great Britain Exhibit No.582, Your Honor. Great Britain Exhibit 582.
JUDGE SEBRING: I do not mean the exhibit before the International Tribunal, but the exhibit as it now appears on the front of the document book.
MR. HARDY: Number 52; that's correct, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that it will take judicial notice of the exhibit as you had it on the first page this morning. After that it will be sufficient to take it in our notes.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, sir. May I read the section in this testimony of Marion Dabrowski that I want you to take particular notice of, Your Honor? On page 29, you will find that this is the testimony of Marion Dabrowski, taken at Dachau, Germany 13 May 1945. Question number 1; Marion Dabrowski was asked his name, and his answer -- he was a Catholic priest. I now request the Tribunal to turn to page 31, the second question:
Q: Were you forced to submit to the malaria experiment while you were a prisoner at Dachau?
A: Yes, three times by mosquitoes and once by an injection of blood from a malaria patient.
Q: Did you volunteer or offer yourself in this experiment?
A: Never
Q: How did it happen that these experiments were performed upon you?
A: It happened through the camp secretary's office. At that station, prisoners who were communists were told to present the names of 100 prisoners for the malaria injections. These communists said that the priests are the most useless among the prisoners, so we priests were told that 100 of us had to go forward to get the malaria injections. The hundred names were finally chosen from amongst the priests by alphabet.
Q: Were 100 Catholic priests forced to submit to the malaria experiments?
A: Yes
Q: Were you given an opportunity to protest your being subjected to this experiment?
A: At the beginning a protest would have been like a death sentence. There was a sudden change at the end of the year 1943 in our general treatment. They were not officially allowed to lodge a protest. It was easier to have a word, and protest against further experiments.
Q: Did the protest do any good?
A: In my own case, and that of one of my fellow priests, the protest was successful, and I escaped a fifth injection, after the fourth I had. I know, however, in many cases, a protest was useless even at that time.
Q: What result did this malaria injection have upon you, and the other priests who were subjected to malaria injections?
A: At first we got a fever for about three hours. After three hours, we felt extremely cold and started shaking with cold. Then the fever started again, and the whole process continued sometimes for us many as nine days. My own brother, who is also a Polish priest, and is still in this camp, had, for nine days, daily higher fever, as high as 41 or 42 centigrade. Generally they were in a very bad state of health and there were several cases of death.
Q: Over what period of time were you subjected to these four experiments?
A: They began the experiment on me in December 1942 and the last was back in June of 1943.
Q: Who performed these experiments upon you and the other priests?
A: That was SS Obergruppenfuehrer, Professor Schilling.
Q: Did Dr. Schilling ever tell you by whose order he was making these experiments?
A: No, he never said anything to us. He treated us like dogs. When I protested to Dr. Schilling in person, I tried, at first, to talk French to him, because he knew that language; and it is easier for me than to talk German. He told me, in fact, he stopped me at once, and said, "In this camp we speak in German." When, after that, I protested in German language against further experiments on my body, he said, "You have no right to protest, you are a prisoner here, and I shall report you to the Commander of this camp for your protest, and you will see how hard the consequences will be for you.
Nevertheless, I kept on protesting. I had an order from the Camp Commander later on that, every time Dr. Schilling wanted me at the hospital, I had to appear without fail at the hospital at his disposal. I have witnesses that the facts I just related are exact.
I will not read any more from this document, Your Honor. I merely introduce this to show that these men subjected to these experiments were by no means criminals or volunteers. At this time, I respectfully request the Tribunal to call the witness August Heinrich Vieweg to the witness stand.
AUGUST HEINRICH VIEWEG, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q: Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, your name is August Heinrich Vieweg, is it not?
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: On the 17th of September, 1895, at Hannover.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: I am a book printer.
Q: Witness, will you kindly tell the Tribunal where you are presently living?
A: At the time, I am living at Bamberg.
Q: Witness, at this time -- are you now a prisoner in one of the military government prison?
A: For the time being, I am a prisoner.
Q: Would you kindly tell the Tribunal why you are now imprisoned?
A: From the Bamberg prison, I have been brought here in order to heard as a witness.
Q: Witness, you do not understand me. Why are you, or why were you, in the Bamberg prison? For what reason have you been placed or put into the Bamberg prison?
A: I have not yet been sentenced. I am in pre-trial confinement in the Bamberg prison.
Q: For what reason are you in pre-trial confinement?
A: The Bamberg police have accused me of engaging in black market activities and because of serious mischief.
Q: Thank you, witness. When were you first arrested by the Nazis and placed in a concentration camp?
A: I was arrested in May 1940 and taken to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen.
Q: When were you transferred to the Dachau Concentration Camp?
A: I was sent to the concentration camp at the 16 th of October 1940, coming from Neuengamme.
Q: While you were an innate at the concentration camp, did you ever undergo any medical experiments?
A: The concentration camp at Dachau; I was used for malaria experiments by Professor Dachfinney.
Q: How many times were you subjected to the malaria experiments by Dr. Schilling?
A: On five occasions I received five cubic centimeters of malaria-bug infective and later, --
Q: Would you kindly tell the Tribunal what effect these experiments had on you; that is, did you have high fever, serious illness, and so forth?
A: Quite often I ran a very high temperature. I reached a very exhausted condition, and after the injection I received large doses of medical drugs, quinine, ephedrine, and many others. I was in bed for weeks, and after one certain treatment in the course of 1943, 1944, 1945, and 1946, there were 20 to 26 occasions when I had malaria attacks, so that, for a long time I was unable to work.
Q: At the present time, do you have re-ocurrences of this malaria fever?
A: In this last year, I was in hospital from August 1st to 15th, again with malaria attacks.
Q: How many recurrences of malaria have you endured since you were experimented on by Dr. Schilling?
A: After my treatments in the experimental station had been concluded, I stayed with Dr. Schilling, and there were twenty occasions when I was treated for recurrences.
Q: Are you completely cured now, witness?
A: No.
Q: After you had undergone the various experiments at the hands of Dr. Schilling, did you then become a worker in Dr. Schillings' laboratory?
A: After my first so-called immunization treatment had been concluded, the Chief Medical Officer of that Department sent me over to Dr. Schilling's department for laboratory duties.
Q: On what date did you assume those duties
A: I am afraid I can't tell you that exactly, but it must have been on or about August of 1942.
Q: What were your duties in Dr. Schilling's experimental station?
A: In Dr. Schilling's Department I was in charge of animals. In other words, I cultivated animals: white mice and canaries; in fact, I was in charge of that department.
Q: Did you have any other or additional duties, such as file clerk or typist, witness?
A: For a certain period, I substituted for the Clerk and I was in direct contact with Dr. Schilling on various occasions. I had a certain amount of contact with the Chemistry Department purchases from Dachau, and also I was in command of battle fields in the surrounding district of Dachau; and I dealt with work done by the commander.
Q: While with Dr. Schilling, did you have the opportunity to read any of Dr. Schilling's correspondence?
A: I had frequent occasions to see the reports which Dr. Schilling sent in every three months, and sometimes I saw the answers which Dr. Schilling received from Berlin, as well as some other chemical manufacturers
Q: Witness, can you recall the whom those reports were sent, in Berlin?
A: These quarterly reports which Dr. Schilling used to prepare, went to the Gruppenfuehrer or Obergruppenfuehrer, the Reich Medical Officer: Dr. Grawitz.
Q: You have referred to the fact, today, that you saw some of the answers Dr. Schilling received from Berlin; who was the originator of those letters that Dr. Schilling received from Berlin?
A: As far as I can recollect, these replies came to Prof. Schilling from Dr. Grawitz.
Q: Do you know where Dr. Schilling received his material to be used in this research, that is injected blood, in the malaria Experiments, fly eggs, and so forth?
A: I can remember that Dr. Schilling received malaria fly eggs, so -called eggs, from which he bred, to other flies, from Duesseldorf; they came from an insane asylum, but I can't remember the name, and some from Rome medical institute at Rome that used to receive eggs. In fact, his material used to come from Berlin. According to my memory, it came from Prof. Rose, and also from Athens; but I am afraid I can not recollect the name there.
Q: Do you know whether Prof. Rose had any correspondence with Dr. Schilling?
A: I remember in connection with the previous breeding we were not too successful, and subsequently a number of letters given to a stenographer by Dr. Schilling came before me, and they were addressed to Prof. Rose. He was making certain explanations in it, regarding certain types of insects, in connection with which my name was used. I am certain it went to Berlin and I am certain that answers were received on numerous occasions.
Q: Did Dr. Schilling ever send any reports of these experiments to Prof. Rose, to your knowledge?
Q: Whether he sent reports about Malaria patients, I don't know. At any rate, so far as about these fly breeding experiments are concerned, he had sent reports. I know that for certain.
Q: Witness, during the time you were with Dr. Schilling's Labratory Department, were there any visits from distinguished visitors from Berlin or other places?
A: I remember for certain only this: Der. Grawitz, he came to see us on about three occasions, coming from Berlin. He came to see us first. A number of other visitors also came to see us, but I can not remember the details.
Q: Can you remember any of the names of the visitors that came to visit Dr. Schilling's experimental station?
A: Unfortunately, I am unable to remember them. I only know that one of my assistants, a certain Dr. Kurt Ploettner, received visits from Standartenfuehrer Sievers, and he carried out negotiations with him. This man, Sievers had taken the so-called Block No. 3. He had a room in our Department, where he carried on his writings; and Standartenfuehrer Sievers visited him several times and he visited our department and went through it. As far as any other visitors who visited our department are concerned, I can not remember any.
Q: Doctor -- Witness -- We will now turn to Experiments on Sea Water. Do you know anything about experiments at Dachau with sea water?
DR. PELCKMANN: May I raise an objection, please? I beg not to admit that this witness should be examined about sea water experiment questions. Undoubtedly, we know about this witness for the last 24 hours. The document book of the prosecution on sea water experiments however has only reached me five hours ago.
On the basis of the affidavits which are contained in that document book, I shall have to put certain points to this witness, in order to examine, whether his statement is correct; because these affidavits which are contained in that document book are coming from people also who have seen something in connection with these sea water experiments. And it is possible, that certain contradictions may be made here, regarding this.
I must ask, therefore, that the questioning of this witness in reference to sea water experiments should be postponed until I have had an opportunity to see the documents in Document Book No. 5, and examine them together with defendant Schaefer.
And, I should consider it as particularly suitable if the examination of this witness would not take place until the prosecution, too, have submitted the affidavits from this document book. Otherwise, you see, I should have to wait until after the presentation of these affidavits from Document Book No. 5, and then ask that this witness shall be called again. So that I could prove contradictions on the basis of this affidavit.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, I have several answers to Defense Counsel. First of all, we filed General Secretary Document Books on sea water experiments within the requirements of the Tribunal; that is, twenty four hours within which we wished to present the document books on sea water. This should have been placed in the hands of defense counsel yesterday, so I presume it was delivered to the Defense Counsel Information Centre.
Secondly, as we explained in the procedure the first day of the trial, we said it would not be possible -- pardon me -- we said it would be necessary on several occasions for testimony of witnesses to over-lap: That is, when we called a witness on Malaria, that at the same time this witness can testify as to the sea water and other experiments.
It was necessary for us at that time for convenience and in order to save the Tribunal's time here. We cannot call the witnesses back daily as we arrive at each experiment.
JUDGE SEBRING: May I ask the Secretary-General's office if he has a record which shows when these document books were placed in the Defense Counsel Information Center? I haven't received it.
MR. HARDY: The Secretary-General has the document books in his hand now, your Honor.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I say something, your Honor? My colleagues and I myself received the document book with these three affidavits at 10:30 a.m. to day.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I want to impress upon the Tribunal that it will be next to impossible for the prosecution to call witnesses, as I said before, to testify from one experiment to another and only call them after we have presented the documents on a particular experiment. In that case we would have to wait and hold the witnesses until the presentation of all documents and evidence has been completed because each witness that we will call can testify to more than one experiment. Furthermore, we have complied with the regulations of the Tribunal and filed the Document Book. However, as to what the witness can testify to now, I feel that the position the defense takes, that they have not had the document book, is immaterial at this time. These document books are placed in the Defense Information Center in boxes containing the defense counsels' names. If they did not go to the Defense Information Center after recess last evening, then naturally they would not have the copy until this evening.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you say that they were in the boxes at that time?
MR. HARDY: I can not say that, Your Honor, inasmuch as it is not our duty to deliver them to the Defense Counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that, but you can't say that, can you?
MR. HARDY: No, I can't, your Honor.
DR. PECLMANN: This morning, after most of my colleagues had already entered this courtroom to participate in the session, I received this document book at 10.30. The document books for the other colleagues had just arrived. They were not in the shelves for the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Examination of the witness may proceed at this time concerning sea-water experiments but the witness may be recalled at some later date soon, possibly Monday, for cross-examination upon those letters by the defendants.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, do you know about the experiments conducted at Dachau with sea water?
A: In the year 1944, I do not remember the exact month any more, a department was created in the so-called Block 3, Stage # 1, which previously had been occupied by malaria patients. This department was prepared for so-called sea water experiments Forty to sixty, I do not remember the exact number any more, gypsies were confined there and the door was locked.
There was a nurse in this ward who had previously been a nurse with us, I can't recall his name any more, and several Luftwaffe officers appeared, also some non-commissioned officers, and they took over the management of the whole project. This department in itself was isolated; none of us were allowed to enter there. However, from my section I was very well able to observe this department. These patients were confined there; they were also allowed to take some exercise in the yard during the first initial few days and then they told us that they were being nourished with Luftwaffe rations. As far as I can remember, this ration was continued for two weeks and then this nourishment was withdrawn. According to the stories we heard, because, after all, we wanted to know what was going on there, we were told that these people had been divided into three or four sections and that various methods of treatment were given to them. One part of them was to be given only pure seawater; another part was to get distilled sea water; and the third group was to be given sea water mixed together with some tablets. I can only remember this because we were told about it. But I have seen the following: that in this ward a certain amount of unrest began to develop. I mutiny almost broke out there at one time. They beat up their nurse. One nurse then was released by other personnel. I can remember that from this ward on various occasions people were carried out on stretchers who seemed to be in a very excited condition. In part they were then brought to other sections in order to be treated there. What happened to them there I do not know. On two or three occasions, I believe to be able to remember to a certainty, a stretcher was carried out by the nurses with a cloth and a blanket over it and these stretchers were carried to the so-called morgue. The whole experiment, as far as I can remember, lasted approximately 8 weeks and then the whole section was cleared out again.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess for 15 minutes.
