1946-12-18, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)

Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on, December 18, 1946, Justice Beals, presiding.

THE PRESIDENT: The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.

There will be order in the court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.

THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants arc present in court this morning.

THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note in the minutes the presence of the defendants in Court.

The prosecution may proceed.

WALTER NEFF -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. McHANEY: (Counsel for prosecution)

Q: Witness, at the end of the session yesterday we were discussing the freezing experiments, the water freezing experiments, and you had described to the Tribunal the death of the two Russian officers; I would like to ask you a few more questions with respect to those freezing experiments. Mil you describe to the Tribunal the method used for renaming the victims of the freezing experiments?

A: During that period when Rascher and Holzhoehner were there the rewarming at tine beginning was carried cut by massage and partly by means of injections of drugs affecting the heart, and also by moans of rewarming by electrical heaters and partly by means of a warm bath. On each occasion the body temperature was that of the experimental subject. At the end of the Hozloehner period the hot water renaming method was introduced and that was carried, out at the end of the re warming period with the exception of a few special experiments with animal warmth. For this warmth about 10 women from the concentration camp at Ravensbrueck were ordered to report to Dachau and were forced to press themselves naked against the body of the frozen person in order to rewarm him in that manner.

These arc the methods which were employed in order to rewarm the frozen body.

Q: Now, Witness, did. I understand you to say that the hot water bath method, of rewarming was not adopted until after Holzloehner and Finke had left?

A: After Holzloehner and. Finko had left the station hot water rewarming was also carried out.

Q: Do you recall receiving orders in September 1942 from Sievers to take the hearts and lungs of 5 inmates who had been killed to Professor Hirth in Strassbourg for further scientific study?

A: It is correct that I had to take specimens from the Morgue belonging to 5 persons who dies during experiments that had to be taken to Strassbourg to Hirth. I myself, of course, have never carried out an abduction and therefore have not prepared these speciments. Sievers at that time gave the order that I should have to go to Strassbourg and there deliver the glasses to Professor Hirth, together with an accompanying letter. This was the end of September or the beginning of October. The travel warrant had been made cut by Sievers and likewise the bodies' expense were born by Ahnenerbe.

Q: Had the 5 experimental subjects been killed shortly before you left for Strassbourg?

A: I cannot remember with absolute certainty whether the specimens were fresh or whether they originated from earlier death eases. I do know that amongst the specimens there was one from a Dutchman. The ether four I cannot recollect for certain to say which nationality they were.

Q: Did yon deliver these hearts and lungs to Professor Hirth in Strassbourg?

A: I delivered them in Strassbourg, not directly to Professor Hirth, but I had to hand them over to the laboratory at the University there. The letter to Professor Hirth I handed, to. him personally, and he wanted me to return and see him in the afternoon, since he had to give scathing to me to take to Dachau.

He gave no a closed letter to Dr. Rascher and a parcel which I handed Rascher for him to give to Sister Pia.

Q: Now, professor Hirth was also a member, in fact the head of the Department of the Ahnenerbe Society, was he not?

A: We know that professor Hirth was also making experiments and belonged to the Ahnenerbe Society.

Q: Tell mo just what you knew about these experiments which Professor Hirth was carrying out?

A: I can only repeat what I have heard. Amongst us in the camp there was a rumor that Professor Hirth was also making freezing experiments with comrades from the concentration camp at Natzweiler, but I have not heard any confirmation of this.

Q: Did you hear what sort of experiments these were?

A: I only heard about freezing experiments, what type or any details I do not know.

Q: I suggest to you that Professor Hirth was carrying out mustard and Lost gas experiments; did you over hear of that?

A: No.

Q: As I recall you having stated Sievers made certain visits to the experimental station when the freezing experiments were being carried out?

A: Yes, Sievers visited the experimental station quite frequently. He was present a few times during experiments, but I do not recollect whether he was present during experiments which resulted in death.

Q: Didn't Rascher make written reports to Sievers as being the Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe Society?

A: There were monthly reports at the first of the month and quarterly and 6 monthly reports, which were detailed reports to the Ahnenerbe Society. They were the working reports, following in detail Exactly what types of experiments and how many experiments were carried out. I also know at the end of these reports that the number of deaths were stated. I have deposited a copy of these reports with the Tribunal in Dachau.

Q: Now, Witness, didn't Rascher also make reports to the Luftgau No. 7 in Dachau?

A: In Dachau to Air District No. 7 and the Sanitary Department of No. 7 final reports. These were reports which were handled as top secret, and they were sent to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, Silvers and to the Sanitary Department of the Air District.

Q: Tell the Tribunal, Witness, what this Luftgau No. 7 in Munich was?

A: That I cannot explain. I only know that the designation Luftgau Sanitaets amt No. 7 existed, and that the offices were in the Prinz Regentenstr, and that Rascher was receiving instruction from there too. To whom the reports were handed directly and to whom they were passed on, is something I do not know.

Q: But you do know that Luftgau No. 7 was a medical installation of the Luftwaffe, isn't that so?

A: Yes.

Q: And was it not on the occasion of the delivery of one of these reports when you went with Rascher to Luftgau No. 7 and on that occasion that you saw the defendant Weitz?

A: Whether it was on that occasion when a report was delivered or some other occasion, since Rascher visited Luftgau No. 7 quite frequently, is something I cannot recollect exactly. I don't want to state that it was just the day when a top secret matter was handed over.

Q: Was Rascher well known in Luftgau No. 7 in Munich?

A: Yes, because before Rascher was the head of the experimental station in Dachau he had an experimental station dealing with "E" measures at Schongau, also coming under Luftgau No. 7.

Q: Now, witness, let's move along to the dry freezing experiments- when were they first conducted, do you know?

A: According to my recollection the air freezing experiments wore carried out in January, February and March 1943. First of all one experiment was made when the prisoner was placed on a stretcher at night and put outside the block He was covered with a linen sheet, but a bucket of cold water was poured over him hourly. That experimental subject remained there under these conditions until the morning and the temperature of that experimental subject was taken with a thermometer. Later Rascher said that it had been a mistake to cover the person with a linen cloth and pour wafer over him since that had produced wrong results as the air could not get at the body of the person, and therefore in the future experimental subjects were not allowed to be covered up any longer. The next experiment was a mass experiment when 10 prisoners were also put outside naked at night. The temperature of one of them was measured with a galvanometer, the others with a thermometer.

Raschor was present during approximately eighteen to twenty experiments of that type, but I cannot remember exactly how many deaths occurcd and if deaths occured in connection with those experiments. I would like to say with certain reservations that approximately three deaths occurcd during that peris One one of the subsequent days, Dr. Raschor telephoned me and said that Dr. Grawitz was here and he was demanding that at least one hundred experiment of that type should bo carried out.

He gave me the order that ten experiments had to be carried out that night by me. I told him. that this was an impossibility since I did not have the material to carry out the experiments. I tries to stop it. Dr. Grawitz then took over the phone end he said I should not try to make excuses, but should carry cut the experiments. I said I would try to carry them out. I went back to the block and discussed the matter with my comrades. My comrades said they thought it would be bettor to carry out the experiments without Raschor being present, for if Rascher was present, it would bo more dangerous.

We gave an evipan anaesthetic to ten prisoners. One detainee was put out until ten o'clock in the morning. At night, at ten o'clock, it was said no one could enter the camp. If it should bo entered, it would be an SS man or Dr. Raschor and we would bo warned because the camp would be illuminated with a red lamp, the sign for the guards, as no one was allowed to move in the camp.

Toward six o'clock we found the patients back outside, but we took a careful record indicating that ten experiments were made. That is why in the record of the experiences carried cut by Dr. Rascher, it is stated that experimental subjects had remained from the evening in outside temperature from three to ten degrees below freezing without anything happening to them and that a hot bath put them back on their feet. An expert would say immediately this was a possibility that cannot be exact. It was in that manner in theory we carried out one hundred experiments, but in practice there were only twenty. I want to emphasize in these experiments, there were neither cases of illness or death. If during these experiments any detainees suffered in any way. I would be full; responsible for them. I know as a comrade, I was more responsible to my comrade than those who need not bother their conscience with this affair.

Q: I understood you to say something about approximately three deaths a few moments ago. What did you have reference to then?

A: These deaths were due to the fact that during the initial period of these air freezing experiments, which occured when Dr. Rascher was present, when, of course, it was impossible to put the people inside the cell or blocks, that they died of the consequences or died during the freezing,

Q: How long were those people kept outdoors?

A: The longest period about which I know lasted from six P.M. to nine A.M., the following morning. It was a man Rascher kept outside for experimental purposes.

Q: How low did their temperatures drop?

A: The lowest temperature, which I can recollect during the open air freezing experiments was twenty five degrees body temperature.

Q: I take it that these experimental subjects suffered quite a lot. Is that true?

A: Yes, because at the beginning Rascher had prohibited that these experiments were to be carried out under anesthetic, but the experimental subjects screamed to such an extent it was impossible for Rascher to carry out the experiments without anesthetic, so he wrote a report to the Reichsfuchrer SS in which he gave reasons and made the suggestion that these experiments in the future would not be carried on in Dachau, but in Auschwitz or some other camp.

Q: Now, were these experimental, subjects selected in the some manner as those for the wot freezing and high altitude experiments?

A: Yes.

Q: In other words, some of the experimental subjects were political prisoners, some were criminal prisoners and not all of them had been condemn to deaths that correct?

A: Of the experimental subjects subjected to air cooling experiments, none were people who were sentenced to death, They were prisoner of various nationalities. There were also German political prisoners and "green" prisoners.

Q: And these prisoners had not volunteered? Had they?

A: No.

Q: Now, witness, tell us to the best of your ability, tell us how long Dr. Rascher was a member of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe?

A: I can only say that up until the end of 1943 Rascher appeared in the SS uniform. On the other hand, I know that as early as the beginning of these freezing experiments, they were carried out by the Ahnenerbe Institute and the finances o'f the Ahnenerbe Institute paid the expenses.

Q: How do you know that they paid the expenses?

A: I know that from the correspondence, which Rascher had with the Ahnenerbe Institute since the clerk working in the office was telling us currently about most important matters. He, too, you know, was a prisoner.

Q: But, Rascher did up until the end of 1943 wear the uniform of al Luftwaffe officer; s that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: So that all during the high altitude experiments, the freezing experiments in water and the air freezing experiments, Rascher was wearing the uniform of a Lultwaffe officer; s that right?

A: Yes, he was a captain or staff medical officer of the Luftwaffe.

Q: Alright, witness. Let us move on to a different matter. You remember that you worked with Robert Weichs, Pacholek and Rascher in connection with blood coagulation drugs?

A: Yes, but Pacholek did not arrive at the station until the beginning of 1942, whereas Robert Weichs came in May of 1943, May 1, with the permission of this High. Tribunal, explain in detail the circumstances under which those drugs wore worked on, parallel with the time the air freezing experiments and the water freezing experiments were going on? Now Rancher was trying to develop a new type of freezing experiment by use of direct blood pressure device and he was looking for machinery which would enable him to take blood pressure directly after. It was impossible to take it directly on the experiments once they reached bottom level. This would cause a new lot of experiments and we were determined to stop Rascher at all costs in some way or another from taking on this type of experiments.

I was sent out to find a chemical assistant. Ho needed someone for the laboratory who would be able to help as someone would have to bo there for this work on the prisoners themselves. Weichs was introduced to me; but he refused to try Rascher's experiments and he said he would not work in the laboratory. He said he was a chemist and the only thing he would be able to make was a coagulation which would be used in powder form. After checking with my comrades, we decided we must have this man at the station at any costs and maybe it would be possible to stop Rascher from amking rhose experiments in order to make him carry out harmless experiments. Rascher turned me anyway on two occasions; but the third time he followed my suggestions.

I, myself, went to Weichs' relatives to discuss the matter with him and told him and his lawyer that I was pursuing the plan to detain Rascher, whom I knew was a blood-hound and thus to bring Weichs into the station in order to bring out an easier type of experiment, as good human judgment was not causing the experiments.

There was an agreement on the lawyer's part and also on Weichs' part and thus Weichs came to our station. At the beginning of May, Rascher went on leave and in the meantime Weichs had started with the production of coagulant tablets Rascher returned towards the end of -ay and a method was developed which would enable us to test the effectiveness of these tablets. This was a well known clinical method. From a vein some blood was extracted by means of a hypodermic syringe and the drops of blood were placed on a glass plate, and then by means of a small glass tick they were stirred in order to find out how soon they would get solid. Then the person in question would take one or two tablets, and them every five, ten and fifteen minutes more blood was extracted in drops in order the test its qualities. Likewise, these tablets were sent to the dentist station and to the operating theater. Right up until I was transferred to the front --- or rather until I became ill in the end of Juno or the beginning of July, I never observed a single occasion when anyone might have suffered through these experiments, "hen I came back from the front they had reached the state whore Rascher was entending to begin the production of these coalulant tablets which was to take place in Luchenau (?) near the Swiss border.

Q: Well, witness, I understand that they made these clinical tests on these blood coagulant drugs, but don't you also know that Rascher shot people and created wounds on their body to test this blood coagulation drug under more realistic conditions?

A: Only after the arrival of the American troops, I heard rumors to that effect from a comrade, that things like that were supposed to have at that time.

Q: Well, but, witness, suppose you saw certain documents all written by Oswald Pohl to Rascher and you saw a lot of Rascher's mail in which Pohl took Rascher to task for having mentioned in an article that experiments were made on concentration camp inmates, would you suppose that those experiments were the simple clinical tests which you, have mentioned?

A: A written report from Rascher to Pohl is known to me. The situation was this: Rascher was walking a number of important written reports by writing them at home, not in the station. If such a report is in existence then it certainly wasn't written in the station's office because I have no knowledge of any similar report.

Furthermore, we must consider this: From June 1943 until January 1944 I was absent from the station.

Q: You do not recall having soon a letter then from Oswald Pohl to Dr. Rascher telling him that he must not mention in any report that he has been experimenting on concentration camp inmates with respect to polygal or this blood coagulation drug?

A: No. I know nothing of such a report.

Q: But you did hear after you returned from the Russian front that Rascher had in fact created wounds artificially on prisoners in order to test this blood coagulation drug, did you not?

A: For all necessary matters, I only heard -- not after my return from the Russian front -- hut earlier and alter after the arrival of the Americans.

Q: You were never present in the crematorium with Rascher whom he dissected a body and used the blood coagulant to see if it would staunch the flow of blood?

A: No, I never saw that.

Q: Tell me, witness, you remember having seen Professor Blome on one occasion, don't you?

A: I saw Professor Blome once fleetingly in Munich at a time when Weichs had to return a radio set to Blome, but I never saw Blome at the station.

Q: I didn't ask you if you had seen him at the station, but I ask you now if he had a mustache when you saw him?

A: I didn't pay enough attention; therefore I can't say whether he was wearing a mustache or not.

Q: Now, did you hear hr. Rascher mention Blome's name on occasions?

A: Yes, that is correct to say that Rascher spoke of Blome quite frequently not so much to us though but when visitors were there, such as standartenfuchrer Sievers or other visitors from the SS, then Blome was talked about.

A: He was mentioned in connection with the coagulation drugs and also in connection with Weichs.

Q: Did you understand that Blome was interested in the experiments being conducted on polygal?

A: I can only assume, I can't state for certain.

Q: Well, let me read you a few excerpts from a diary kept by Sievers and sec if these could refresh your recollection in any way as to what the connection was between Professor Blome and Dr. Rascher.

MR. McHANEY: I am referring to Document 3546-PS, Your Honors, and I read from page 170 the English Document Book Number 3. The first entry I would like to call your attention to is number three. It says; "SS--Mauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher supplied questions fro production of polygal experiments. Professor Blome--polygal report to SS-Gruppenfuehrer Professor Gebhardt. SS-Untersturmfuehrer Ebben as manager of polygal production. Color material chemist for L works, test report -on polygal."

BY MR. McHANEY:

Q: Now, what do you understand all of that to mean, witness? Here we find Professor Blome's name mentioned in connection with Rascher's, apparently relating to the polygal experiments. Can you throw any light on that subject?

A: I know that the leadership of the SS was very much interested in polygal Of the color experiments which you have mentioned, I know nothing; and it is to be assumed that Blome was interested in polygal because otherwise it would have been impossible that Rascher could have spoken so often of Blome and I know that he often visited with hi.

Q: Where did Rascher visit with Blome?

A: At Munich.

Q: Did you understand that Blome lived in Munich?

A: Whether he lived at Munich or whether he had his office there, I don't know, but I assume that that was whore he had his office.

Q: How far is Munich from Dachau?

A: 18 kilometers.

Q: How, another item in this diary of Sievers says, "Professor dome by telephone advised or Reichsfuchrer SS order concerning his work at Dachau and collaboration with Rascher." Do you know what that means?

A: I beg your pardon, but I have not exactly understood what was said.

Q: This is an entry in Sievers' diary made on the 25th of February 1944. You had just recently gotten back from the front and therefore this matter should have been fresh in your mind. The entry reads, "Professor Blome telephone advised of Reichsfuehrer SS order concerning his work at Dachau and collaboration with Rascher." In other words, Sievers was telephoning Professor Blome and Told him about the Reichsfuchrer SS order concerning Blome's work at Dachau and his collaboration with Rascher. Now, don't you know something about that?

A: I know nothing about this telephone conversation. It was difficult from all these facts to know precisely what the game was because on the one hand Raschor said to Weichs once if Pohl comes to this station and if you disappear and it has to be through the window, don't let Pohl see you because he will shoot you down. I never knew and neither did Weichs what the background of the story was of that, whether it was an intrigue of Rascher or whether Pohl had something again Weichs. Weichs did not recall that he ever had any controversy with Pohl. To come back to the telephone conversation, it may nave been so that on the part of the Ahnenerbe Society and on the part of the Reichsfuehrer there was a great deal of pressure for the production and manufacture of that coagulation drug. Maybe that is what it refers to.

Q: I don' t want to press this point too far, but the entry very clearly says that Blome is to collaborate with Rascher, and I am asking you if that wasn't a fact and don't you know it to have boon a fact that Blome did collaborate with Rascher?

A: I only know that Blome frequently mentioned Rascher -- excuse me -that Rascher often spoke about Blome and that Blome frequently visited Rascher, that it always applied to the case of Feichs and the coagulation drug, that is also clear to me. I have still to say that I myself have never seen Blome at the station.

Q: I want to road you one other entry in this diary. It is dated the 3rd of March 1944. It says: "Conference, Blome, Rascher, Rau, at Professor Thiessen's. L-questions." I ask you if you don't know that the phrase "L-questions" means Lost questions, mustard gas questions'?

A: No, that is not known to me.

MR. HcHANEY: This was Prosecution Exhibit 123, Your Honors.

BY HR. McHANEY:

Q: Do you know whether Rascher over received any research assignments from the Reich Research Council?

A: Yes. The assignments for experiments came from Sievers and I assume that Sievers received these assignments from the Reich Research Council. Direct assignments from the Reich Research Council did not come to my knowledge. At least I do not know of any correspondence which might have come directly from the Reich Research Council that went over the Ahnenerbe Society; that is to say, via Sievers.

Q: Well, you will recall that you got a letter from Rascher in the latter part of 1943 in which he very generously offered to give your wife fifty Reichsmarks a month to help support her?tile you were in police training. Don'.t you remember that letter?

A: Yes. I wrote to Rascher from the front and I wrote him that he should see to it that my wife should get some support. She received neither any support from the Ahnenerbe Society nor from anybody else while I was at the front. Upon that Rascher answered that he would see to it and that of course he himself was ready to send fifty Marks per month to my wife.

My wife never received anything; she never received a penny from Dr. Rascher.

Q: Don't you recall also, in the same letter, that he told you he had received a research assignment from the Reich Research Council?

A: I know, but whether 1 have that knowledge from letters from Rascher or from letters which came from Dr. Bunzengruber I can not say for sure. There was some correspondence about the fact that an assignment existed for experiments, to the effect that in the mountains freezing and high altitude experiments should be carried out and that for that he would like to call me back from the front. I may also give some explanation on this point. It is far from me to praise myself and it would bo below my dignity to do so. If Rascher praised me, if he tried to -- and that applied to all his employees --if he tried to recruit those from former inmates, there was a good reason for that, because they were in his hands completely and he knew that from that side there would never any danger occur; because what would it have meant if any statement against it would have come from a former inmate? I think that was the reason why Rascher always recruited from the inmates for his services. It is indeed true that I fulfilled every private wish that Rascher had. I had my definte reasons for that. I remember once Rascher brought shoes that had to be soled and the shoemaker told me: "Yes, for you I will do it but not for Rascher." When Rascher wanted to call for the shoes I told him it wasn't possible for me to got a shoemaker, that he should bo patient, It was about five o'clock in.the evening; he was still in his car. He got out of his car and said: "Now if you won't do anything for mo, then I do not have to be concerned about you." He took a man for an experiment and he conducted a very mean experiment. That taught me that it was better to fulfill all his private wishes than not to do it. At the station there was a tailor, a radio mechanic, a furrier, a carpenter, who only worked for the private interests and private wishes of Rascher, and from that it con bo explained that Rascher praised mo in acme reports, I do not deny this and I do not deny that in some respects Rascher had great confidence in me.

Q: Now, Witness, you say Sievers was a member of the Reich Research Council?

A: Yes. I even assumed that Sievers was vice-president of the Reich Research Council. At any rate, Rascher said so.

Q: Wasn't Blome also a member of the Reich Research Council?

A: That I can only assume. I could not say that with certainty; I do not know it for sure.

Q: Well, how could you assume it? What information do you have which leads you to believe that he might be?

A: I assume it because Rascher and Blome, also Hirth and all those with whom Rascher was in direct contact, all these worked together with the Ahnenerbe Society and also with the Reich Research Council.

Q: Well, you don't exclude the possibility then, do you, Witness, that this research assignment that Rascher received from the Reich Research Council came from Blome rather than Sievers, do you?

A: Are you now asking concerning the coagulation drug?

Q: No. I am asking you about the freezing order which he told you about, that is Rascher told you about in the letter he wrote you while you were in training for the police.

A: An answer to that would only be an assumption, It may be possible, but I could not say with certainty whether is was so or not.

Q: Do you have any information as to whether or not Blome knew about the freezing experiments which were carried cut by Rascher in Dachau? Did he know about those?

A: Very definitely I could not say of course, I could neither see that from any correspondence nor from any other source. I know, however, that at that time Rascher was in contact with Blome and he considered it always to be very dangerous when Rascher went on trips and suddenly came back with a new idea and introduced something new into those experiments.

Q: You mean he came back with some of these ideas after he had made a visit to Blome?

A: This would be saying too much, after he came back from Blome. But that group of doctors with whom he was in contact was a source for instructions, that is to say, for new ideas; about that I have no doubt.

Q: Let's skip on to your knowledge about these poison experiments that Rascher carried out in Dachau. That can you toll us about those?

A: The poison experiments which Rascher carried out in Dachau were conducted very secretly by him. We only saw that he manufactured drugs, that he took cyanide and that he left with these drugs. From people from the crematorium and from the bunker we heard that he used these drugs there; that is, he told the inmates that they had to take these tablets. They swallowed them and some of them perished under very bad pains. I have never seen these things; neither did Rascher ever speak about this kind of experiments in our presence. But I know that they distributed at least 60 to 80 of these tablets, or rather, that he manufactured at least 60 to 80 of these tablets every day and took them along with him. He always went to the crematorium or to the bunker and that is where he conducted these experiments. Any more definite details are not known to me. It was almost proverbial among ourselves to say: "They are making some sort of a drug now so that they can disappear quickly when things go wrong."

Q: About when did these poison experiments take place?

A: January, February and March '44.

Q: Now can you tell the Tribunal very briefly -- I don't want you to go into much detail -- just what happened to Dr. Rascher?

A: Yes. In March 1944, our attention was called to the fact, by a notice in the newspaper, that a child had been stolen in Munich and the description of the woman supposed to have done it fitted to Mrs Rascher. It was clear to us, especially since the fur coat was described which had been manufactured at the station. It was also remarkable that when this happened I was called to Munich by telephone. I arrived at eleven o'clock at Rascher's apartment and saw the woman who had been brought from the air raid shelter who was given alcohol and also saw the child. The child was pale and hardly had the appearance of a new born child. When the notice appeared in the newspaper it was clear to us that something had gone wrong. However, about six days later there was another notice in the newspaper saying that the child had been returned. I looked for a reason and an excuse to go to Munich again with a comrade to Rascher's apartment to see if the child was there. I saw a child and saw that it was a different one and I asked the main what had happened to the child I saw before. She said the child was sick. About three days later, Mrs. Rascher and Dr. Rascher were arrested. Dr. Rascher was sent to Munich and, on the evening when he was sent to Munich, he called me up by telephone and told me to come to his apartment. I came to his apartment and found that everything had been demolished and Rascher was in his bed. Rascher told me that his wife had been arrested; that the children had been carried away, and that his wife was accused of having stolen a child and that he was confined to his house. He gave me the key for the safe and asked me to bring him certain items. At that time, I used the opportunity to remove several very important documents and, in November 1944, I buried them. Later, I was frequently questioned by the criminal police of Munich about that kidnapping and I have found out from the police that Mrs. Rasher did not only kidnap that one child but all four of them and I was trying to find a motive for that. I could not explain to myself how a woman could kidnap four children and I was told that the Reichsfuehrer had prohibited Rascher from marrying that woman because she could hot have any children. After she had given Rascher two children in this way, he had given him the permission to marry her. It was, however, very interesting that Rascher, in spite of all these things, about four weeks after his arrest was released again and so was his wife.

I was very much worried myself that Rascher would get after us again. Rascher telephoned me that I should, come to him immediately. I went to Munich and Rascher told me I should make inquiries as to whether Pacholek was in the camp. In the meantime. Pacholek had fled. Rascher said that man could be very dangerous to him. He had very carelessly discussed several things with him and he would see to it to prevent that man from making any statements. Thereafter I went to the camp and informed Rascher that the man was not in the camp. I then went to the criminal police in Munich in order to tell them that Rascher intended to do away with the witness. Thereupon Rascher was arrested again, together with his wife. From that moment on. I have not set eyes on Rascher again nor hoard about him. Only when the Americans had arrived did I hear about him again.

Q: Let's go back for just a few questions to the high altitude experiments. What did Romberg usually do while the experiments were being conducted.

A: Romberg watched the experiments, took notes, took the cardiograms. He was also in the experiment van with several subjects to measure the pulse.

Q: New, you say that on occasion he ran the electrocardiogram?

A: Yes.

Q: Tell tine Tribunal what an electrocardiogram is and what it shows.

A: The EKG is an electrocardiogram which, in a photographic way, shows the activity of the heart and from which can be seen how the heart reacts in such altitudes.

A: Can you tell, when you were running that electrocardiogram, when an experimental subject in the chamber was about to die?

A: For the experts it is certainly possible, if the experiment has been pushed to the extent that the man dies. In. these low pressure vans, however, people were trembling and, of course, that trembling showed on many of the cardiograms, but for a doctor it must have been possinic to determine whether dearth would occur or not.

MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the defense counsel have any questions to ask the Prosecutions's witness on cross examination?

Prior to the opening of the cross examination the Court will be in recess for fifteen minutes.

(A recess was taken)