1946-12-20, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is now in session.

BY MR McHANEY:

Q: Witness, you have told the Tribunal that in Judy 1942, some seventy-five Polish girls, who were in the transport from Lublin, were called before the camp doctors in Ravensbrueck.

A: Yes.

Q: Now, were any of those girls selected for an operation?

A: On this day we did not know why we were called before the camp doctors and on the same day ten of twenty-five girls were taken to the hospital but we did not know why. Four of them came back and six stayed in the hospital. On the same day six of them came back to the block after having received some injection but we don't know what kind of injection. We did not know what kind of injection. On the 1st of August those six girls were called again to the hospital; those girls who received injections, they were kept in the hospital but we could not get in touch with them to hear from them why they were put in the hospital. A few days later, one of my comrades succeeded to get close to the hospital and Teamed from one of the prisoners that all were in bod and that their legs were in casts. On the 14th of August, the same year, I was called to the hospital and my name was written on a piece of paper. I did not know why. resides me, eight other girls were called to the hospital. We were called at a time when usually executions took place and I was going to be executed because before some girls were shot down. In the hospital we were put to bed and the hospital room in which we stayed was locked. We were not told what we were to do in the hospital and when one of my comrades put the question she got no answer but she was answered by an ironical smile. Then a German nurse arrived and gave me an injection in my leg. After this injection I vomited and I was weak, Then I was put on a hospital cot and they brought me to the operating room. There, Dr. Schidlauski and Rosenthal gave mo the second intravenous injection in my arm. A while before, I noticed Dr.Fischer who went out of the operating room and had operating gloves on. Then I lost my consciousness and when I revived I noticed that I was in a regular hospital room. I recovered my consciousness for a while and I felt severs pain in my leg.

Then I lost my consciousness again. I regained my consciousness in the morning and then I noticed that my log was in a cast from time ankle up to the knee and I felt a very strong pain in this leg and the high temperature. I noticed also that my log was swollen from the toes up to the groin. The pain was increasing and the temperature, too, and the next day I noticed that some liquid was flowing from my leg. The third day I was put on a hospital cart and taken to the dressing room. Then I saw Dr. Fischer again. He had an operating gown and rubber gloves on his hands. A blanket was put over my eyes and I did not know what was done with my leg but I felt great pain and I had the impression that something must have been cut out of my leg.

Those present were: Schidlauski, Rosenthal, and Oberhauser. After the changing of the dressing I was put again in the Regular hospital room. Three days later I was again taken to the dressing room and the dressing was changed by Doctor Fischer with the assistance of the same doctors, and I was blindfolded, too. I was then sent back to the regular hospital room. The next dressings were made by the camp doctors. Two weeks later we were all taken again to the operating room and put in the operating, tables. The bandage was removed, and that was the first time I saw my leg. The incision went so deep that I could see the bone. We were told then that there was a doctor from Hohenlychen, Doctor Gebhardt, would come and examine us. We were waiting for his arrival for three hours lying on our tables. When he came a sheet was put over our eyes, but they removed the sheet and I saw him for a short moment. Then, we were taken again to our regular rooms. On the eight of September I was went back to the block. I could not walk. The puss was draining from my leg; the leg was swollen up and I could not walk. In the block, I stayed in bed for a week; then I was called to the hospital again. I could not walk and I was carried by my comrades. In the hospital I met some of my comrades who were there after the operation. This time I was sure I was going to be executed because I saw an ambulance standing before the office which was used by the Germans to transport people intended for execution. Then, we were taken to the dressing room where doctor Oberhauser and Doctor Schidlauski examined our legs. We were put to bed again, and on the same day, in the afternoon, I was taken to the operating room and the second operation was performed on my leg. I was put to sleep in the same way as before, having received an injection. And, this time I saw again Doctor Fischer. I woke up in the regular hospital room, and I felt a stronger pain and a higher temperature.

The symptoms were the same. The leg was swollen and the pus flowed from my leg. After this operation, the dressings were changed by Dr. Fischer every three days. More than ten days afterwards we were taken again to the operating room, put on the table; and we were told that Dr. Gebhardt was going to come to examine our legs. We waited for a long time. Then he arrived and examined our legs while we were blindfolded. This time other people arrived with Dr. Gebhardt; but I don't know their names; and I don't remember their faces. Then we were carried on hospital cots back to our rooms. After this operation I felt still "worse; and I could not move. While I was in the hospital, cruelty from Dr. Oberhauser was performed on me.

When I was in my roam I made the remark to fellow prisoners that we were operated on in very bad conditions and left here in this room and that we were not given even the possibility to recover. This remark must have be n heard by a German nurse who was sitting in the corridor because the door of our room leading to the corridor was opened. The German nurse entered die room and told us to get up and dress. We answered that we could not follow her order because we had great pairs in cur legs and we couldn't walk. Then the German nurse came with Or. Oberhauser into our room. Dr. Oberhauser told, us to dress and come to the dressing room. We put on our dresses; and, being unable to walk, we had to hop on one leg going into the operating room. After one hop we had to rest. Dr. Oberhauser did not allow anybody to help us. When we arrived at the operating room, quite exhausted, Dr. Oberhauser ed and told us to go back because the change of dressing would not take place that day. I could not walk, but somebody, a prisoned those name I don't remember, helped me to come back to the room.

Q: Witness, you have told the Tribunal that you were operated on the second time on the 16th of September, 1942? Is that right?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: When did you leave the hospital after this second operation?

A: After the second operation I left the hospital on the 6th of October.

Q: Was your leg healed at that time?

A: My leg was swollen up; caused me great pain; and the pus drained from my leg.

Q: Were you able to work?

A: I was unable to work; and I had to stay in bod because I could not walk.

Q: Do you remember when you got up out of bed and were able to walk?

A: I stayed in bed several weeks; and then I got up and tried to walk.

Q: How long was it until your leg was healed?

A: The pus was flowing from my leg till June, 1943; and at that time my wound was healed.

Q: Were you operated on again?

A: Yes, I was operated on again in the Bunker.

Q: In the Bunker? That is net in the hospital?

A: Not in the hospital but in the bunker.

Q: Will you explain to the Tribunal how that happened?.

A: May I ask permission to tell something which happened in March, 1943, March or February 1943?

Q: All right.

A: At the end of February 1943, Dr. Oberhauser called us and said, "Those girls are new guinea-pigs"; and we were very well known under this name in the camp. Then mu understood that we were persons intended for experiments and. we decided to protest against the performance of those operations on healthy people.

We drew up a protest in writing and we went to the camp commander. Not only those girls who had been operated on before but other girls who were called, to the hospital came to two office. The operated on girls used crutches and they went without any help.

I would like to tell the contents of the petition made by us. We, the undersigned, Polish political prisoners, ask Herr Commander whether he knew that since the year 1942 in the camp hospital experimental operations have taken place under the name of guinea-pig (das sind neve kaninehen), as explaining the meaning of those operations.

We ask whether we were operated on as a result of sentences passed on us because, as far as we know, the international law forbids the performance of operations even on political prisoners.

We did not get any answer; and we were not allowed to talk to the commander. On time 15th of August, 1943, a police woman came and read off the names of ten new prisoners. She told us to follow her to the hospital We refused to go to the hospital, as we thought that we were intended for a new operation. The police woman told us that we were going probably to be sent to the factory for work outside the camp. We wanted to make sure whether the Arbeitsamt was open because it was Sunday. The police woman told us that we had to go to the hospital and be examined by a doctor before we went to the factory.

We refused to go then because we were sure that we will be kept in the hospital and operated on again. All prisoners in the camp were told to stay in the blocks. All of the women who lived in the sane block whore I was were told to leave the block and stand in line before the Block ten at a time. Then the Overseer Binz appeared and called out ton names and among them was my name. We went out of the line and stood before the ninth block in line. Then Binz said: Why do you stand so in line as if you were to be executed?" We told her that operations were worse for us than executions and that we would prefer to be executed rather than to be operated on again. Binz told us that she might give us work, there was no question of our being operated on but we were going to be sent for work outside the Camp. We told her that we must know that prisoners belonging to our group are not allowed to leave the camp and go outside the camp. Then she told us to follow her into her office, that she would show us a paper proving that we are going to be sent for work to the factory outside the camp. We followed her and we stood before her office. She entered her office for awhile and then wont out and wont to the canteen where the Camp Commander was. She had a conference with kin probably asking him what to do with us. We stood before the office a half an hour. In the meantime one follow-prisoner who used to work in the canteen walked by us. She told us that Binz asked for help from SS men to take us by force to the hospital. We stood for a while and then Binz came out of the canteen accompanied by the Camp Commander. We stood for awhile near the camp gate. We were afraid that SS men would come to take us so we ran away and mixed with other people standing before the block. Then Binz and the camp police appeared. They drove us out from the lines by force. She told us that she out us into the bunker as punishment; that we did not follow her orders.

In each cell were put five prisoners although one cell was intended only for one person. The cells were quite dark; without lights. We stayed in the bunker the whole night long and the next day. We slept on the floor because there was only one couch in the cell. The next day we were given a breakfast consisting of black coffee and a piece of dark bread. Then we were locked again in this dark room. We were only troubled by people walking in the corridor of the bunker. The answer was given us the same day in the afternoon. The watch-woman from the bunker unlocked our cell and got; me out of the cell. I thought that I was then to be interrogated or beaten. They took me and they wont down the corridor. She opened one door and behind the door stood SS man Dr. Trommel. He told me to follow him upstairs. Following Dr. Trommel I noticed there were other cells, and those cells were with bed clothing. He put me in one of the cells. Then he asked me whether I would agree to a small operation. I told him that I did not agree to it because I had undergone already two operations. He told me that this was going to be a very small operation and that it will not harm me. I told him that I was a political prisoner and that the operation cannot be performed on political prisoners without their consent He told me to lie down on the bed; I refused to do so.

He repeated it twice. Then he went out of the cell and I followed him. He went quickly downstairs and locked the door. Standing before the cell I noticed a cell on the opposite side of the Staircase, and I also noticed some men in operating gowns. There was also one German nurse ready to give an injection. Near the staircase stood a stretcher. That made it clear to me that I was going to be operated in again in the Bunker. I decided to defend myself to the last moment. In a moment Trommel come back with two SS men. One of these SS men told me to enter the cell. I refused to do it, so he forced me into the cell and threw me on the bed.

Dr. Trommel took me by the left wrist and pulled my arm back. With his other hand he tried to gag me, putting a piece of rag into my mouth, because I shouted. The second SS man took my right hand and stretched it. Twice other SS men held me by my feet. Immobilized, I felt that somebody was giving me an injection. I defended myself for a long time, but then I grew weaker. The injection had its effect; I felt sleepy. I heard Trommel saying, "Das ist fertig", that is all.

I regained consciousness again, but I don't know when. Then I noticed the German nurse was taking off my dress, I then lost consciousness again; I regained it in the morning. Then I noticed that both my legs were in iron splints and were bandaged from the toes up to the grain. I felt a strong pain in my feet, and a temperature.

In the afternoon of the same day a German nurse come and gave me an injection, in spite of my protests; she gave me this injection on my thigh and told me that she had to do it.

Four days after this operation a doctor from Hohenlychen arrived, again gave me an injection to put me to sleep, and as I pretested he told me that he would change the dressing, I felt a higher temperature and stronger pain in my legs.

Q: Now, witness, when was it that you were removed from the bunker after this operation?

A: Ten days after the operation performed in the bunker I was taken --in the night-time-- to the hospital.

Q: Well, that must have been around the latter part of August, is that right; August 1943?

A: Yes it was.

Q: Now, was another operation performed on you in September 1943?

A: About the 15th of September 1943 I was a gain taken to the operating room and a further operation was performed on my left leg.

Q: Now, in the operation in the bunker they operated on both legs, is that right?

A: Yes in the bunker I was operated on both legs.

Q: In the bunker Operation, were your legs dirty the next a ruing after you woke up; that is, following the operation?

A: When I woke up after the operation that I underwent in the bunker, I noticed that my feet were dirty, covered with mud, that they had not been washed before the operation.

Q: Who performed this operation around the 13th of September 1943 in the camp hospital, do you know?

A: The doctor from Hohenlychen arrived. I was taken to the operating room, I was given an injection, and an operation was performed on my left leg.

Q: Do you know the name of the man who performed the operation?

A: A german nurse told me that this was a doctor from Hohenlychen, assistant to the Chief doctor, whose name was Hartmenn--Dr. Hartmann. However, I don't know whether he actually performed the operation.

Q: Did the nurse tell you that Hartmann was assistant to Dr. Gebhardt?

A: She told, me only that this was a doctor, an assistant, from Hohenlychen.

Q: All right. Now, after this operation on your left leg the middle of September 1943, did they, several weeks later, operation your right leg?

A: Two weeks later a second operation was performed on my loft leg although pus was draining from my former wound, and a piece of shin bone was removed.

Q: Now. witness, I'm a little bit confused. I thought you said that on 15 September 1943 they operated again on your left leg. I asked you if two weeks later they performed an operation on your right log.

A: On 15 September 1943 my right leg was operated on, in spite of the wounds, and two weeks later my left leg was operated on.

Q: Now, do you say, witness, that they removed a piece of shin bone from your legs in those operations?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: Now, how long were you in the hospital after these operations in September 1943?

A: I stayed in the hospital six months. I was in bed. I could not stretch my legs. I could not move them. I could not walk either.

Q: When were you removed from the hospital?

A: At the end of February, 1944.

Q: Were you able to walk then?

A: I tried to walk at that time but could't walk.

Q: What sort of work did you do then?

A: When I arrived at the block I stayed in bed for a time and then I used to work at knitting stockings.

Q: Have you received any treatment to either of your less since you were liberated from Ravensbruck?

A: No.

Q: Do you still suffer any affects from those operations?

A: I'm weak, I have no strength to work and my legs got swollen up very easily.

Q: Witness, I am having handed to you two pictures. Those are Documents Nos. 108 1A and 108 1B. Are those pictures taken of you here in Nurnburg?

A: Yes. they were.

Q: I submit these pictures as Prosecution Exhibit 211.

Now, witness, will you please remove the shoes and stockings from both of your legs. Now, will you step out from behind the witness box and let the Court see the scars on your legs.

(The witness complied).

Now turn around once, please. Just turn around slowly. Thank you. Sit down new.

Were you ever asked to consult to any of these operations which you underwent at Ravensbruck?

A: Never.

Q: How many times did you see Gebhardt?

A: Twice.

Q: I will ask you to stop down and walk ever to the defendants' dock and see whether or net you find the man Gebhardt sitting in the dock.

(The witness complies and pointed to the defendant Gebhardt).

Thank you. Sit down.

I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Gebhardt.

THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness identified the defendant Gebhardt in the deck.

MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.

THE PRESIDENT: Will Dr. Alexander be again out on the stand in connection with the examination of this widens?

MR. McHANEY: Yes, but if there is any cross-examination we can probably finish that before lunch.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness?

DR. SIEDL (Counsel for the defendants Gebhardt, Oberheuser and Fischer): I do not intend to cross-examine this witness but this does not mean that my clients admit the correctness of all statements made by this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other of the defense counsel desire to examine the witness?

(No response.)

MR. McHANEY: Dr. Alexander can take the stand now. I don't know how long.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 1:30

(A recess was taken until 1330)