1947-01-03, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, we will read Document No.016(c) in our presentation, which is on page 55 of the English Document Book, and we offer this Document as Prosecution's Exhibit No.278. This is a letter from Pohl, Chief of the SS-Economic and Administrative Main Office to the defendant Rudolf Brandt. It is dated 22 June 1943, and it is in response to the letter written by the defendant Karl Brandt with respect to his inspection of certain factories which were manufacturing gas. The letter reads as follows:
Dear Comrade Dr. Brandt:
The Reichsfuehrer SS gave me for further action, your letter of June 9th 1944, concerning conditions of prisoners working in several K-factories.
I might say, parenthetically, K-factories mean gas factories.
Accommodation of prisoners is exclusively the task of contractors, to whom the prisoners are allotted by us. On such occasions, definite obligations are placed upon contractors. Security reasons make their carrying out absolutely imperative.
The day before yesterday, I asked the Reichsfuehrer SS, when I reported to him, whether I could allow some improvements in this connection. The Reichsfuehrer SS answered in the negative.
I am ready, notwithstanding. to discuss with contractor concerned individual cases, if desirable.
I would, therefore, be grateful if you would inform me about the places, where difficulties have arisen.
Heil Hitler!
/s/ Pohl.
There is a note on the bottom as follows: "NB. Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Brandt has not yet replied", on the "20 July 1944", with the signature "Fauler."
This letter, along with the other one from the defendant Karl Brandt indicates he had, at least, extensive influence and power with respect to chemical warfare problems.
And, this power undoubtedly arose out of further orders which he received in March 1944 concerning gas warfare.
We come on to Document No.005, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No.273. This letter is to Heinrich Himmler, and it concerns a request for concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes in connection with the gas known as N-substance. The letter is dated 22 November 1944, and the originator of the letter has not been determined as the signature is illegible. The subject of the letter is: "Experiments with N-substance."
Reference: Order of Reich-Leader SS of 15 May 1944.
To: Reich-Leader SS H. Himmler.
Reich Leader:
The Chief of the Technical Office in the SS-Chief Administrative Office, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Schwab, has contacted me in September of this year with the request to furnish him with 2 doctors, who as medical experts were to witness experiments with N-substance, which he was carrying out at the time by order of the Fuehrer. This was above all a matter of the clarification of the question, if N-substance was to be considered for chemical warfare or otherwise.
For this purpose I have furnished my leading pathologist, SSHauptsturmfuehrer University Teacher Dr. Sachs, as well as the doctor working on ancestrial heritage --
Which means the Ahnenerbe Society.
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer, University Teacher Dr. Ploetner.
The Tribunal will recall, we have here Dr. Ploetner who was mentioned previously in connection with experiments at Dachau, more particularly with the blood coagulation experiments there. And, Dr. Ploetner was the head of Department in the Ahnenerbe Society. The letter continues:
In accordance with these investigation experiments carried out on 23 September 1944, the necessity Ms now arisen to carry out several experiments on human beings for the final clarification of the physiological effect of N-substance on and through the human skin. Five prisoners are necessary for the execution of these experiments.
It is highly improbable that the experiment will cause any permanent damage.
In accordance with your order of 15 May 1944, Reich-leader, I have obtained the opinion of SS-Gruppenfuehrer Professor Gebhardt, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Bluecks and SS-Oberfuehrer Panzinger. They read as follows:
1.) SS Gruppenfuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt:
I am certainly in agreement with the suggestion, and request that the directions for the supervision of the carrying out be issued directly by the Reich Doctor-SS and the Police.!
2.) SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
I have received your letter of 7 November 1944 with regard to the procurement of five prisoners for the experiments which are to be carried out with N-substance.
For this purpose I have had five prisoners who have been condemned to death in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp placed in readiness, on whom these experiments can be carried out.
3.) SS-Oberfuehrer Panzinger:
From the point of view of the criminal police the experiments intended there are to be welcomed. Therefore no misgivings exist against the handing over of prisoners for inoculation.
If political prisoners should be considered, the Chief of Office IV, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, would still have to be consulted, but he will certainly likewise grant permission.
The letter continues:
I respectfully request the transmittal of the permission, so that the experiments can be initiated.
Heil Hitler!
(illegible signature).
We see, however, from the letterhead which is the Reich Doctor SS and Police that this letter originated from the office of Doctor Grawitz. Now, of course, we have several defendants in the dock who were in the office of the Reich Doctor SS and Police; among those being the defendants Mrugowsky and Poppendick.
This letter is quite interesting for several reasons, not the least, which is this order of 15 May 1944, which is mentioned here on page 56.
The writer of this letter says: "In accordance with your order," meaning Himmler's order of 15 May, 1944, "I have obtained the opinion of SS-Gruppenfuehrer Prof. Gebhardt, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks, and SS-Oberfuehrer Panzinger." Now, it seems that there will be little question but that this order in fact meant that medical experimentation on concentration camp inmates had to be cleared through those three individuals because in the letter itself they are asking permission from Heinrich Himmler to carry out these experiments.
The writer of the letter says. "In accordance with your letter of 15 May 1944 I have gotten the opinions of Gebhardt, Gluecks, and Panzinger."
And who is Gebhardt? He is the defendant in the dock who was the chief surgeon in the office of the deceased Dr. Grawitz. Who was Gluecks? Gluecks was head of Ant D in the Economic and Administrative Office, Main Office of the SS, which had administrative control ever concentration camps. Hence they had to go to him and advise him of medical experiments to be carried out on concentration camp inmates. Who is Panzinger? Panzinger was one of the chief officials in the criminal police; and he is being consulted in this instance because the suggestion is made that they will experiment on criminal prisoners. But it is interesting to note that SS-Oberfuehrer Panzing says if the political prisoners should be considered, then you must go to another agency; you must go to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, who was one of the distinguished gentlemen in the Gestapo. So we see in this one little document how these matters were handled and cleared before they were carried through.
The document also proves that contrary to using criminal prisoners exclusively, the letter itself shows that political prisoners can be used; but if you wanted them you had to go to Mueller.
This completes the presentation of documents on the Lost experiments for the moment. I would like to go back, however, and call the Court's attention again to the letter on Page 52 of the English document book. That is Document NO-015 and was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 275. Then we submit that this letter in and of itself brings home criminal information to the defendant Karl Brandt of the experiments which were carried out with Lost gas on living human beings.
You will recall that this Fuehrer order concerning chemical warfare, which was received by the defendant Karl Brandt, was forwarded in copy to Himmler's office, with the request that it be distributed to the necessary agencies in the SS; and it is interesting to note who got the order.
One of the first men to get it was the famous Dr. Grawitz. One of the other gentlemen to get it was the defendant Sievers, leader of the Ahnenerbe Society and its Institute for Military and Scientific Research, which had by 1944, a considerable background of experience in experimentation on living subjects. Who else got it? The Fuehrungshauptamt, headed by Hans Goettner. Why did he get it? He got it for the reason that he was chief of the operational headquarters of the Waffen SS. In other words, it was his agency which directed the fighting troops of the SS in the field; and as such he, of course, was considerably interested in problem of chemical warfare.
So I think it is important to note to whom the Reichsfuchrer considered it important to distribute this Karl Brandt Fuehrer order. But, coming back to Sievers' letter, which is Prosecution Exhibit 275, he reports to Rudolf Brandt that he has been in touch with Karl Brandt and reported to him in the latter part of March, 1944, about the research activities of Prof. Hirt; and, of course, by this date a not inconsiderable number of living human beings had been experimented on and killed by this same Prof. Hirt and his associates in the concentration camps of Sachsenhausen and Natzweiler. Sievers gave Karl Brandt the plans worked out by this time by Prof. Hirt for treatment of Lost infection and Prof. Brandt, that is, Karl Brandt, explained that he would be in Strassburg the first week in April and would then discuss the details with Prof. Hirt.
Of course, the Tribunal will recall that the University of Strassbourg was where Prof. Hirt was engaged or supposed to be engaged in the teaching of students, medical students; and it will be interesting to put the question to Karl Brandt, if and when he takes the stand in this case, as to whether he did in fact go to Strassbourg and if so what he had to say to Prof. Hirt.
It should also be remembered that the affidavit of he defendant Rudolf Brandt concerning experiments with mustard gas very explicitly and clearly states that experiments on human beings continued after the date when Karl Brandt received the Fuehrer order concerning chemical warfare. I therefore think the proof is clear that the defendant Karl Brandt bears indeed a major share of responsibility in the crimes which were perpetrated during the course of these experiments.
I would like at this time to have the witness Ferdinand Holl called to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Ferdinand Holl.
FERDINAND HOLL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SEBRING: The witness will raise his right hand and take the oath, repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Witness, your name is Ferdinand Holl?
A: Yes.
Q: Your last name is spelled H-o-l-l?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: You were born on 21 December 1900 at Landsweiler-Reden, Kreis Ottweiler?
A: That is correct.
Q: You are a German citizen?
A: I am a German citizen.
Q: And you are at present domiciled at 6 Wilhelmstrasse, in LandsweilerReden?
A: Yes, 6 Wilhelmstrasse at Lansweiller-Reden.
Q: What is your present occupation, Witness?
A: I am now a business manager.
Q: Did you say a business manager?
A: Yes.
Q: What business do you manage, Witness?
A: I am business manager in a cinema.
Q: Now, have you always lived in Germany, Witness?
A: Until my emigration in 1935.
Q: And to what place did you emigrate, Witness?
A: I emigrated to France.
Q: And did you emigrate from the Saar?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you leave the Saar in 1935?
A: Because of political reasons.
Q: Was it in that year that the Saar was returned to Germany?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: How long did you stay in France?
A: Until the time I was arrested by the Gestapo at Bordeaux.
Q: And when was that, please, Witness?
A: That was on the 11th of October, 1940.
Q: Will you please tell the Tribunal why you were arrested by the Gestapo?
A: In 1935 I went to France as a political emigrant because I was an anti-nazi. I worked in France as a metal worker until 1940. Then upon the occupation by German troops I was arrested at Bordeaux by the Gestapo. I was taken to Germany into the Buchenwald concentration camp.
Q: When did you arrive in Buchenwald?
A: It must have been approximately in the middle of December, 1940.
Q: Were you a political or criminal prisoner in Buchenwald?
A: I was a political prisoner.
Q: Did you wear the red triangle?
A: I wore the red triangle.
Q: How long did. you stay in Buchenwald?
A: I remained in Buchenwald until March, 1942.
Q: What happened to you then?
A: In 1942 a transport went to Natzweiler in order to construct that camp.
Q: What work did you perform in Natzweiler, Witness?
A: In Natzweiler I worked on stones from the stone pile for about two weeks. Then I went to the hospital. I was then a medical assistant.
Q: Now did you ever hear of the Ahnenerbe Institute or Ahnenerbe Station at the Natzweiler Concentration Camp?
A: This Ahnenerbe Station there was under my supervision.
Q: Well now what do you mean by "it was under your supervision"? Do you mean to say you were all nurses in that part of the hospital under the direction of the Ahnenerbe?
A: In October, 1942, Professor Dr. Hirt came into this camp and in the block which was the hospital, at that time it was divided into two parts. One section was considered as Ahnenerbe and the other one was further treated as a hospital for the inmates. I had this whole block with the Ahnenerbe subordinate to me as the so-called Kapo or Capo of the Ahnenerbe.
Q: In other words, you were something in the nature of a chief nurse in the Ahnenerbe?
A: Yes.
Q: Now did you have any occasion while you were working as a nurse in the Ahnenerbe to witness any experiments carried out on living human beings?
A: Yes, I personally was present.
Q: Will you please explain to the Tribunal exactly what you saw and what happened?
A: In the middle of October when the Ahnenerbe had finished its preparations several inmates were selected by Professor Dr. Hirt who were still in good physical shape and who still were at least looking healthy, and they were brought into this room. There were two rooms all together, and in each room fifteen men were billeted. Then first of all these people were given SS food for approximately two weeks and then the experiments were begun. Then these people were taken to the pathological department and there the first experiments with liquid gas substance were made.
Q: When was this liquid gas experiment made, witness?
A: It was immediately after the Ahnenerbe had been completed.
Q: That would be in October or November, 1942, then?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And how many persons were used in this first liquid gas experiment?
A: As I have already previously mentioned there were two rooms and in each room fifteen men were billeted. Therefore, there were thirty persons all together.
Q: Now, witness, were these persons concentration camp inmates?
A: Only.
Q: Do you know whether or not these concentration camp inmates volunteered to be experimented upon?
A: Professor Hirt before selecting these people gave them a lecture and told them that if some of them would volunteer he would speak with Himmler and see that these people would be released. However, in the camp it had become common knowledge that other experiments were being carried out in other camps, so that nobody volunteered. Then these people were just called up.
Q: Were political as well as criminal prisoners among the experimental subjects?
A: Without exception.
Q: And were nationalities other than -- were persons of nationalities other than Germans selected?
A: At that time there were Russians, Poles, Czechs and Germans in the camp.
Q: And were some of these other nationalities included among these experimental subjects?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, will you tell the Tribunal in your own words about this first experiment carried out with liquid gas, just what you saw happen, whether or not any of the experimental subjects died, whether they suffered any pain, etc?
A: In the first experiments, Professor Hirt and the German Luftwaffe Officer who was carrying out the experiments had the prisoners completely undressed and they came into the laboratory one after the other and then I had to hold their arms and they received ten centimeters above the lower arm and there was one drop of the fluid put upon that part of the arm. Then the people who had been treated in such a way had to go into an adjoining room.
They had to stand there for one hour with their arms sprayed. After approximately ten hours or it nay have perhaps been somewhat longer, then burns began to appear and from then on they were spread over the whole body. Wherever a drop of this gas touched the body there would be burns. Even some people became partially blind. They suffered terrible pains so that they were hardly able to bear them. It was almost impossible to stay in the vicinity of these people. Then the patients were photographed every day, that is all the places where burns appeared and approximately on the 5th or 6th day we had our first casualty or fatality. At that time the fatalities were still sent to Strassbourg because our camp did not have any crematory. However, the corpse was again returned and it was dissected in the Ahnenerbe section. The most part of the lungs and other organs had been for the most part destroyed and then in the course of the following day an additional seven people died. This treatment lasted for approximately two months until they were somewhat more able to be moved and then these people were sent to another camp.
Q: And witness there were about eight deaths among the first thirty people experimented upon, is that right?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Did they perform autopsies on any of the people who had died?
A: Yes, I told you immediately.
Q: And you were able to observe as a result of the autopsy that the gas had infected and destroyed the lungs and other parts of the body?
A: I alone had admission to this Ahnenerbe.
Q: Will you repeat that, please? I did not understand it.
A: I alone had entry to this Ahnenerbe room.
Q: Now, witness, you have explained to the Tribunal how this first series of experiments was carried out on approximately thirty inmates of the camp. Was there a second series of experiments?
A: Yes, the experiments in the gas chamber.
Q: Were these experiments with liquid gas like the first ones?
A: Yes, they were liquid too. They were small ampules of from one to two cubic centimeters each handed to the patients who were to be taken to the gas chamber about 500 meters distant from the camp, and two people always entered this gas chamber at the same time. The gas chamber was of course locked and then one of the prisoners had to smash these ampules and thus they had to inhales this gas which was escaping, and then afterwards sometimes, of course, they were unconscious, and they were brought back to consciousness and returned to the Ahnenerbe Department and there the treatment continued and the progress of the disease was observed.
Q: And what did you observe about the condition of these experimental subjects who were forced to inhale the fumes of this gas? What happened to them?
A: The results were approximately the same as the results from the liquid gas. Sometimes I used oxygen in order to get the breathing organs back to work. Certain individuals suffered death through lack of air because we were not successful in reviving them, but there was the same measure of burns as in the first cases.
Q: In other words, the lungs of these victims were also destroyed?
A: Yes. I have seen these lungs, the lungs of these people who had been dissected. They were about the size of half an apple then. They were eaten away; full of pus.
Q: Witness, can you tell the Tribunal approximately how many people died in this second series of experiments?
A: While I was there, that is to say, until 1943, which meant about a year during which these experiments were carried out, approximately 150 people were treated in that manner.
Q: Can you say approximately how many of these persons died as a result of the experiments?
A: That is something which is difficult to ascertain. I can ascertain those who died in the camp, of course, but as soon as these patients were almost ready for transport, they went to Auschwitz or to Belsen or to Lublin; to the various large camps. There I was able to ascertain later, quite by accident, what happened. A neighbor in my village was attending such an experiment. He was living when he tried one of those transports, but he died later.
Q: Are you telling us, Witness, that those experimental subjects who survived those experiments were transported to other camps and exterminated?
A: What they were doing with them in other camps, that is something I do not know.
Q: Will you tell the Tribunal, approximately, how many persons you know died in Natzweiler, itself, out of this original figure of 150 who were experimented upon?
A: During the first experiments, I mean the liquid experiments--there were four experiments--the average death toll was 7 to 8 people out of every 30. The gas experiments were similar. Later experiments were carried out by means of injections. The people were taken to the crematory right away. There was a special room attached to the crematory, a so-called sick room. After that, these people were never seen again.
Q: Do you know what happened to them, Witness?
A: You mean to those people who went to the crematory? They were immediately cremated when they were dead.
Q: These people were those who had been given injections?
A: Yes.
Q: Those injections were given by Dr. Hirt or under his supervision?
A: Under his supervision.
Q: Do you know the content of the material which was injected?
A: That I do not know. No.
Q: Witness, you have told us about liquid gas experiments, and about gas which was inhaled, and about these injections; were there any other types of experiments which you recall that were conducted under Dr. Hirt's supervision?
A: Yes. Right at the end, during the last month I was there, people were given something to drink out of a cup. But during this action, I was relieved. I was transferred to another camp. What the outcome was in that case is something I do not know.
Q: You do not know what kind of liquid this was?
A: No. That I do not know either.
Q: You say you were transferred from Natzweiler; when did that occur?
A: That was before Christmas, 1943.
Q: Why were you transferred, Witness?
A: It was a punishment.
Q: Punishment for what?
A: Because I, as a medical orderly, had supported these patients too much.
Q: Where were you transferred to in the last part of 1934?
A: To Innesheim near Rastatt.
Q: Before we leave Natzweiler, I would like to make sure that the record is clear about these gas experiments you have told us about at Natzweiler. Is it correct that there were four series of experiments with liquid gas which were carried out on approximately 30 persons in each experiment?
A: Yes. That is quite correct.
Q: That would be a total of 130 persons approximately who were experimented on with liquid gas?
A: Right.
Q: And out of each of such series, you say around seven or eight people died?
A: Yes.
Q: And with the experiments with gas, in the gas chamber, there were about three series of experiments of 30 persons each? Is that right?
A: Yes. That is also correct. These rooms were always filled completely.
Q: As I understand you, you stated that approximately the same number of people died in the gas experiments as died from the liquid experiments?
A: Yes. It was approximately the same. At that time, one had so many dead in the camp that it was almost impossible to ascertain figures.
Q: You have testified that the experiments began around November, 1942, and you left the camp to go to Innesheim in about December, 1943. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: How far is Innesheim from Natzweiler?
A: That is approximately 70 to 80 kilometers.
Q: Were these gas experiments still going on at the time you left Natzweiler in the latter part of 1934?
A: The camp at Innesheim was under the camp of Natzweiler. I was a medical orderly there. It was my duty to take patients who fell over at the main camp at Natzweiler. They were exchanged for healthy people there. Once every month I spent eight days in the main camp at Natzweiler. I had to hand these people over to the sick quarters, the sick quarters under the command to which I came.
I found on these occasions that these experiments were continued.
Q: How long were they continued, do you know?
A: Until the evacuation of the camp, Natzweiler.
Q: Approximately when did that occur?
A: Upon the approach of the American Armies in 1944, in the autumn. The camp was evacuated partly to Dachau and partly to Neckar-Els near Wuerzburg.
Q: Witness, did you ever hear or see while you were in Natzweiler, that experiments were carried out on concentration camp inmates with typhus?
A: Injections were carried cut, yes, sir. I did not actually see it myself. I do not know whether it was spotted fever or typhoid. A little later on, after these injections had been inflicted, half of the inmates of Natzweiler camp were sick. Typhoid and spotted fever patients were there. The gates were locked and no prisoner could enter or leave.
Q: You mean to say there was an epidemic of typhoid and typhus in Natzweiler?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was this?
A: That was as early as February, 1944.
Q: Now, how did you know that these typhus injections had been made? Did you see those or did somebody tell you?
A: I have told you that spotted fever injections were made. No, I didn't say that. Correction. I only said that shortly after the injections, a spotted fever and typhoid epidemic broke out in the camp.
Q: Do you know whether, aside from the epidemic, any people died as a result of the injections?
A: Yes. As I have already told you right in the beginning they were immediately transferred to the crematory -- to the sick room -- and from there, after that, they weren't seen again. They were immediately cremated.
Q: Ware these injections carried out under the auspices of the "Ahnenerbe" station?
A: Yes, these injections intravenous were carried out at the "Ahnenerbe" station.
Q: When were those injections made? Did you say that was in the early part of 1944?
A: No, the injections were given while I was still there.
Q: That was the latter part of 1943?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: So, these injections that you saw while you were there you think that those might have been typhus injections?
A: Yes, it is possible that they were.
Q: Were Luftwaffe doctors there? Did they observe these injections or give them?
A: Say that again please.
Q: I say.........
A: Yes, those were medical officers from the Luftwaffe who carried that out.
Q: Now, witness, were any of these experimental subjects released because of having undergone the experiments?
A: I beg your pardon. No, none of them were released.
Q: Witness, are you familiar with Action 14 F 13 or with Action F 13?
A: F 13?
Q: Are you familiar with that action?
A: Yes, F 13, indeed.
Q: Will you tell the Tribunal what that means.
A: F 13 was a code word. It was carried out through the camp doctors on such prisoners who were invalids or who could not produce any work. When the camp doctor in question made his rounds all you heard was "F 13". Either the man was liquidated by the doctor, or he went with a transport of invalids to another camp -- say Auschwitz or some such camp, for instance.
Q: When did you first become familiar with this Action F 13?
A: F 13 was happening right from the beginning when I was in Natzweiler. That is to say, Obersturmfuehrer von Bodmann carried it out.
A: How do you spell that name, witness?
A: von Bodmann.
Q: Did this action continue up until the time you were released from the concentration camp?
A: That went on right to the end, Yes.
Q: And were non-German nationals also included in this action?
A: Every body.
Q: Did they have tuberculars -- people suffering from tuberculosis in this action?
A: In the camp at Natzweiler there were approximately ten percent of the people suffering from tuberculosis.
Q: How long did you stay in this camp Ippesheim which was one of the smaller camps in the Natzweiler complex?
A: I was at Ippesheim from Christmas, 1943, until January 1945.
Q: And where did you go in January 1945?
A: I went to Neckarelz.
Q: And what did you do there? Why did you go there?
A: There, again, I was a medical orderly until the end. I was in charge of a transport of sick scheduled to go to Dachau but the American troops overtook us and at Osterburken on the 3rd of April were liberated.
Q: Now, witness, were there Luftwaffe doctors working in cooperation with Dr. Hirt throughout all those experiments at Natzweiler?
A: Yes, Dr. Hirt always arrived together with an officer of the Luftwaffe and then these experiments were carried out in the pathological department of the "Ahnenerbe".
Q: Is the name "Wimmer" familiar to you?
A: No.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any of the counsel for the defendants desire to cross-examine this witness?
CROSS EXAMINATION
DR. WEISGRUBER (Counsel for defendant Sievers): Witness, your profession is miner, Yes?
A: Yes, miner.
Q: Did you become an invalid so that you could no longer follow that profession?
A: No, I have changed my profession.
Q: When?
A: In 1935, in Paris.
Q: Did you ever carry out any functions for the political party before you emigrated?
A: At that time I was a functionary of the status-quo.
Q: What was the "status-quo"? Will you explain to the Tribunal what the "status-quo" meant?
A: In 1935, the "status-quo" was the name for the plebiscite. It meant the condition which existed -- which was meant to remain permanent in the Saar.
That is to say, neither to France or to Germany with the Saar.
Q: It was therefore your view that it would be rightful for the Saar Territory neither to join France nor Germany?
A: At that time, yes.
Q: Did you not get in touch with any other political party about this conception or just one political party and collaborate with them?
A: No, it was a unity front.
Q: Did you not at any earlier stage base yourself on the grounds of any of the socialist parties?
A: What do you mean by that?
Q: Did you not, in connection with that program, find yourself based on the arguments of one of the socialist parties?
A: Do you mean a political party?
Q: Yes, a political socialist party.
A: Yes, I was a member of the KPD, the Communist Party of Germany.
Q: And your emigration -- did that take place because you were interested in preserving the status quo or did it take place because it was your view that you, as a member of the KPD, might suffer an unfortunate or unpleasant fate if the Saar Territory were reoccupied by Germany?
A: Well, after all, the events told us that.
Q: So, therefore, it was the latter.
A: Yes, my detention in a concentration camp proved that, didn't it?
Q: Since when were you a member of the KPD?
A: Since 1918 when I became an official member of it.
Q: You have told us earlier on that you were a Capo in the sick quarter?
A: Yes.
Q: What were your tasks in that capacity in the Revier sick quarter?
A: To take care of the patients.
Q: Did you not have certain supervisory tasks in that connection?
A: Well, it depends how you look at it. It depends on whether you were working on behalf of the SS or the detainees.
Q: My question was, you know, did you have supervisory tasks as a Revier Capo, and I should like to have a clear answer.
A: Then you should out your question more clear. Do you mean on behalf of the SS or the detainees?
Q: Witness, you are not entitled to put questions to me, you know. I am asking you again whether you, as a Revier Capo, as sick quarters superintendent, had orders to supervise or to guard detainees?
A: Who was supposed to give me that order? Who gave me the order, do you think?
Q: Witness, I have already told you once before that those counter-questions are superfluous.
A: But look here, attorney, I can't give you an answer on uncertain questions.
DR. WEISGRUBER: Mr. President, I beg you to instruct the witness that it is his duty to answer my questions because in this manner cross examination is being made impossible.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will answer questions propounded to him by Counsel as near as he can.
WITNESS: Yes, but I shall then have to be clear as to what the question mean.
DR. WEISGRUBER: Who appointed you as Revier Capo?
A: The detainees in the camp did that.
Q: And did this happen without knowledge of the camp commandanteur or the department in charge?
A: Do you mean the SS commandant or the detainees' commandant?
Q: I do not understand your answer. Is that meant to be another counter question?
A: No. There was an SS commandant and then there was a commandant appointed by the prisoners in the camp.
Q: Well then, who appointed you as Revier Capo?
A: The prisoner commandanteur.
Q: And did this happen without the knowledge of the camp commandanteur?
A: If you mean the SS commandanteur, they were agreeable. They agreed to whatever the prisoner commandanteur suggested to them because they themselves were not in a position, they were not capable of running a camp.
Q: The way you are picturing this, the prisoner-commandant's office suggested you as Revier Capo.
A: First of all as a medical orderly.
Q: Then, of whom did this prisoner-commandant's office consist?
A: At the time it consisted of political detainees.
Q: Did the SS Commandanteur recognize them as such?
A: Yes, they were recognized as the prisoner-commandant's office.
Q: So that it was not only your task to look after the patients in the sick quarters but you were also carrying out certain supervisory tasks?
A: We did not have any tasks of a supervisory character.
Q: Well then, who was responsible if one of these detainees in the sick quarters escaped?
A: None of the patients in the sick quarters could escape because they were so sick when they were transferred to the sick quarters they could not move any more. That way it was impossible to escape.
Q: Witness, you had told us earlier that the experimental subjects were first of all-well looked after for 14 days.
Were they looked after so well that they reached a condition where they were incapable of escaping?
A: I have also mentioned at the same time that this block had been separated and was locked so that no one could get out, none of these people, these experimental subjects, could get out.
Q: So that you want to say that an escape attempt would have been impossible right from the word go?
A: Yes, in this Ahnenerbe department, escape was impossible.
Q: Why was it impossible?
A: Because all the way around, directly next to the Ahnenerbe Department, there was a watch tower. On top of that there was a guard who had a machine gun.
Q: But then was it any different from other parts of the camp?
A: Yes, it was the same in other parts of the camp except that this part was separately locked again.
Q: You had told us earlier that you were present during certain experiments. You referred to a certain part of your activities, mainly that when you had to hold up the arms of the prisoners, when a certain liquid was applied to the arms of these prisoners?
A: No, it had happened already. Afterwards the prisoners had to hold up their arms -- they had to stand like this in front of me. (Witness demonstrating with arms outstretched.) I used to bring the prisoners into the room. Then the operation was carried out on them. Then they were brought back to the adjoining room and then they had to stand like this and hold their arms for about one hour.
Q: Did your work during these experiments consist exclusively of your having to take prisoners into the room in which experiments were carried out?
A: No, I had to look after them afterwards, I had to take care of them and ascertain the progress of the disease. I had to check it.
Q: Did you, during the actual experiments, not give them a helping hand?
A: There was not anything of that nature to be done for them.
Q: Did you not have to boil syringes?
A: No, that was not my job.
Q: Whether this was your work or not is not what I want to know from you. I want to know whether you did it.
A: No, no, I did not do it.
Q: Did you assist in the dressing of the wounds of the prisoners?
A: Yes, that was my job.
Q: Immediately subsequent to the so-called experiments, I take it?
A: Yes, immediately after the experiments.
Q: Did you consider this work as a normal medical experiment, or did it strike you that this was something different?
A: We were not allowed to think in that camp.
Q: Witness, that is the sort of an answer which you can and will save yourself in the future. I have asked you, did you consider these experiments normal medical experiments, or did you think that they were some thing non-permissible?
A: Well, if Professor Hirt congratulated, the experimenting doctors of each individual case and said, "we can congratulate each other for having succeeded with our experiments," then you wouldn't have to think for top long or too hard to figure out what they were for.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: The war industry, of course. It was for that these experiments were carried out.
Q: So that you considered these experiments as being the permissible activity of a medical officer within the tenets of war industry?
A: Well, permitted from Berlin. It was permitted within the Ahnenerbe Department, where they were described as private experiments for war science.
Q: And what was your own personal attitude towards these experiments?
A: I was trying to save what could be saved.
Q: Did you yourself consider these experiments as permissible, or not?
A: They were not permitted as far as we were concerned, from our department.
Q: Then why did you remain, why did you continue to stay with these experiments for more than a year?
A: Just in order to save people, save what I could save, just as I told you a minute ago.
Q: From where does your knowledge originate that criminal and political detainees were detailed for experimental purposes?
A: Each detainee had a marking and they differed according to color, red, green, purple, pink, black, and so on. Green was criminal; red was political; and black was anti-social. Only those criminal and political prisoners were allowed to carry such markings in the camp.
Q: And both criminal as well as political prisoners were used for these experiments, I take it?
Q: Without exception, yes.
Q: You have already earlier given the same reply -- "without exception." There is nothing much we can do with that.
A: All right, I will explain it to you in detail.
Q: Please do.
A: In a black like Natzweiler, everything and everybody was mixed together-- political, anti-social and criminal prisoners were all together in one block. If people were needed for experiments the doctors would go into the block. The people had to undress and then, of course, nobody had any markings any more. Then the healthiest were selected and they were merely detailed to go to the Ahnenerbe Department for experimental purposes.
A: I had to look after them, and having been in the camp as long as all that, I knew the individuals. I knew whether they were criminal, political, or anti-social, and I therefore knew who was a criminal prisoners and who was a political prisoner.
Q: But then if these people came to you without markings I can't imagine on the strength of what you could recognize whether they were criminal or political prisoners.
A: Well I knew, for instance, that Miller was Miller and that Hoffman was Hoffman, and I knew that Miller was a criminal prisoner and that Hoffman was a political one.
Q: Did you know every inmate of the camp?
A: The majority of them I did, yes.
Q: And how did you know them?
A: Because I myself was there from the beginning at that camp.
Q: But you only worked in the sick quarters, didn't you? Did every one in camp pass through sick quarters?
A: Few detainees failed to pass through sick quarters through one disease or another.
Q: How many people went to the crematory within the framework of the injection experiments?
A: The injection experiments? These people, well, for instance today there were 6 that went to the crematory; then tomorrow there were 2 and they went to the crematory, and so it went on.
Q: So if I understand you correctly, the injections were carried out in the crematory itself?
A: No, they were carried on in the Ahnenerbe Department and then for further treatment these people went to the crematory; there, as I have already told you, there was a so-called sick room, which had 2 beds, and there these people went for further checking of the disease.
Q: These people who went to the crematory, were they subject to your further assistance and treatment?
A: No, they were removed from my care.
Q: Well, then, how did you know anything about the future fate of these people?
A: The man who cremated these people, the crematory attendant, was also a prisoner himself, and he used to tell us each time when these people were cremated.
Q: This crematory attendant, did he also look after the people?
A: No, he had nothing to do with the medical care of them.
Q: Did you also assist during dissections? During the dissections of these people did you assist in anyway?
A: Yes, I assisted.
Q: What did you have to do?
A: Well, for instance, I used to bring individual parts of the bodies to the Pathological Institute, or I used to hand over knives or tweezers.
Q: How often did that happen?
A: Every corpse was dissected.
Q: Were you present during every dissection?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Earlier you have been talking about typhus injections.
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Admittedly you stated that you were not aware in the case of the individual injections that they were typhus injections, is that true?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: But you know that during the early months of 1944 an epidemic was prevailing in the camp -- typhus, or "Rhur" epidemic, or typhoid epidemic. Are you now drawing the conclusion on the strength of this epidemic that the injections carried out on the strength of certain experimental programs produced typhus or that they were typhus injections and that they were the cause of the epidemic?
A: Yes, because beginning with that moment that epidemic was apparent.
Q: Is there anything known to you how typhus is transmitted?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you know about it.
A: Typhus can be passed on, for instance, through dirt, through excrements, as was the case there.
Q: What was the color of the injection liquid?
A: I have told you that the injection was carried out by the individual doctors upstairs in the Ahnenerbe Department and that afterwards the patients went to the crematory.
Q: But you were present during the injections; were you not?
A: No, I was not present.
Q: Did you not take the experimental subjects into the room?
A: Yes.
Q: But, you were not present during the actual injections?
A: No.
THE PRESIDENT: It is now time for the Tribunal to recess.
(A RECESS WAS TAKEN.)