1947-01-07, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 133O hours, 7 January 1947)

EUGEN H0GON -- Resumed DIRECT-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. McHANEY:

Q: Mr. Hogon, before the recess, you were relating to the Tribunal cert in facts, which you know about the defendant Hoven. I wish you to continue with your story and state again Hoven's relationship to the so-called illegal inmate government in Buchenwald. I suggest that you perhaps explain a little more fully want the illegal inmate government was, since that subject has been referred to once before by another witness before this Tribunal

A: The SS in the concentration camps imposed a certain amount of self administration on the prisoners. It was not in position itself to administer everything in the camp and to keep it running reliably.

The real members of the camp from the SS side were always comparatively few people in Buchenwald; for example about one hundred and twenty five people. In many cases, however, there were 7000 to 30,000 prisoners. This internal self Administration of prisoners kept normal life, that is order within the blocks; the management of the labor detail, food supplies, distribution of food, laundry, the maintenance of certain discipline for the roll call and similar things. This was the task of the self administration. Their agents were the senior block inmates for the living blocks, the capos, the foremen for the labor details and senior camp inmates or two or three senior camp inmates. The so -- called HA-1 senior carp inmate first was responsible to the SS for internal conditions within the camp. In many cases there was one so-called "kontrolleur" in addition to him, who had a sort of internal police authority.

In the early period of the camps, the SS appointed prisoners who seemed suitable for these functions. Very frequently the SS liked to work with professional criminals, the so-called "green" prisoners, because they wore "green" triangles on their left breast and right arm bands. The professional criminals were generally bitter enemies of the political prisoners, who wore red triangles on their breast and were called the "red" ones. In almost all camps they were violent conflicts between the "reds" and the "greens". This fighting was carried out as was possible in the camp conditions. There was no law for us, it was a jungle of conflicting interests in a limited area. They were carried out with murder.

The "greens", as well as the "reds", in all the concentration camps tried to get control of the internal camp administration, the so-called self Administration of the prisoners. Ihe SS did not stop this fighting since it suited their principle, "Devour and Rule."

In Buchenwald, after four years, from 1937 to 1941, it was possible to force the "greens" back completely and to make them a sort of pariah class in the camp. These four years of conflict was met by numerous murders on both sides. If one of the two classes, the "greens" or the "reds", were able to win over an SS doctor for this fignting, this was one of the most valuable moans of asserting themselves.

The "greens" ruled any camps, the "reds" ruled only Saxonhausen, Dachau and Buchenwald; and Buchenwald primarily during these four years. The "greens" repeatedly, with the aid of SS officers, were able to gain control temporarily. The consequence every time was that dozens, and in two cases over one hundred, so-called prominent political prisoners were killed by the SS and denunciation of the "greens."

The internal administration of the prisoners was expanded more and more as the SS, through corruption and later through the agents at the front, was impeded in the execution of their duties in concentration camps. Every opportunity to put more power directly or indirectly in the hands of the prisoners was taken advantage of.

The leading class in this prisoners' self administration was, if the "reds" were in control, always the communist party would have strict discipline in its own blocks within the camp and it governed internal condition according to its own views and its own decisions. The heads of this machine almost always were determined exclusively by the Communist party.

Only in the last years -- in the last two years -- was there a certain internationalization of this so-called illegal camp administration.

The illegal camp administration, which generally consisted of an inner circle of at the most a dozen men who kept contact with all forces in the camp and had a very intensive extended intelligence service, permeated the ranks of the SS, as well as the ranks of the prisoners. There was no important event in the camp, no matter of what wort, which the illegal camp administration did not within a very short time -- generally within a few moments -- learn about from so-called command runners The two main centers within the camp self administration, which the illegal camp administration used, was the prisoners' office and the hospital; the office, because there all information about the prisoners was collected and was passed on to to SS from there.

For example, if someone new came to the concentration camp, they he came from the political section after a few steps to the office. A detailed questionnaire had to be filled out there and these questionnaires were sent on to the SS, but the men of the illegal camp administration received detailed knowledge from the office, which they immediately checked with what the command runners had reported from the interrogation of the new arrivals from the political section.

The prisoners hospital was more the executive center of the illegal camp administration, and the means were available to dispose of undesirable persons in the camp. The hospital in all concentration camps is one of the,-was one of the most feared installations. Most of the prisoners did not dare even to approach it. The reason was a double one, on the one hand most people in the prisoners' hospitals were killed by the SS, or the so-called selections took place there for gassing, for death transports, for executions of all kinds, and the second reason many people knew that the internal conflict in the camp was carried out through the prisoners' Hospital. Dr. Hoven worked with the political prisoners, with the illegal camp administration, and to make it even more precise with those of the illegal camp administration in Buchenwald. The agents who were sent by the illegal camp administration to the prisoners' hospital, almost all of whom belonged to the Communist Party, if these men made a suggestion to Dr. Hoven, whatever it concerned, after a short time after Dr. Hoven had begun his activity, they could count on these wishes being carried out. Furthermore, if certain political prisoners, who were in danger of their lives, were to be saved by removing them from the political section then Dr. Hoven was always willing at the more suggestion to give his signature for such an act. In this connection, I must emphasize once more that Dr. Hoven had a triple function in the Buchenwald Camp. He was camp physician, and as such was subordinate to the so-called directing physician of concentration camps in the S.S.W.V.H.A. in Berlin, Dr. Lolling; second, Dr. Hoven, from time to time represented Dr. Lolling in his function as directing physician of concentration camps. That was only for a brief period; and in the third place Dr. Hoven was deputy of Dr. Ding Schuler, to supervise the criminal station in Block 46. In this triple function,--generally, it was only a double function the first and the third, Dr. Hoven had toward the SS camp administration, Dr. Hoven was more or less independent of the SS camp administration. He cooperated with the camp administration, which consisted in part of personal friends of his, but generally he was largely independent. So if the suggestion was made to Dr. Hoven that someone should be declared unsuitable for transport he sent such a notice to the political section of the S.S. and the person in question was withdrawn from a transport for a certain period of time.

In my own case, which is only one of numerous cases, in March or April -- in April 1943, I was to be sent to Auschwitz to be gassed. Some of my friends, who were in very close contact with the illegal camp administration, immediately went to it, two men in the prisoners' hospital who belonged to the illegal camp administration and who knew me well, suggested to Dr. Hoven, who did not know me at all at that time, that I was an acute T.B. case. Dr. Hoven gave his signature, and it was reported to the political section that I was not able to be transported. This was done three times because the postponement by the political section was for three or four weeks only in such case, until finally I came to the vaccine station and my liquidation was postponed to the end of the war by the R.S.H.A. In such cases Dr. Hoven was a tool of the illegal camp administration. One of the most striking cases, which was systematic for conditions there, was in 1942 when the second camp leader Planel suddenly took steps against the political prisoners in the camp, replaced them in the prisoners self-administration by official criminals, and then later became a violent struggle against the reds. The political prisoners approached Dr. Hoven, and in the course of a few months in which a few dozen prominent political prisoners were killed by the greens, it was possible to overthrow the rule of the greens by intrigues; and Dr. Hoven aided-in breaking the rule of the greens by a counter terror. From that time on there was never a rule of the greens in the internal administration of the Camp Buchenwald again. Dr. Hoven in his function as camp physician, of course, also carried out suggestions and instructions of the S.S. The prisoners always tried, as far as possible, to save people from these death actions which were ordered. It happened that people who were disliked in the camp were included in the ranks of the death candidates. As conditions were Dr. Hoven could not know anything about these things. The euthanasia program, which I mentioned before, which was called 14 14 F 13, as far as I can recall was in 1943, not 1942, but I am not quite certain,--in the summer. Four transports of about 90 people each were set up, which as we learned very quickly were sent to an institution at or near Bernhur to be gassed, and in the first transport there were a large number of permanent political- prisoners, of which I shall mention only one, a good friend of mine, the security director of Salzburg, Dr. Bichiny.

The people were gassed at Bernburg. Their property, including their false teeth and the pieces of bread which they had in their pockets, after six or eight hours came back in the trucks that the people had been taken away in, came back to Buchenwald. The program 14 F 13 was carried out through the prisoners' hospital. I myself never had a function in the prisoners? hospital. My knowledge comes from my close contact with members of the illegal camp administration and with friends of such members. Other death programs took place in the camp on occasion outside of the experimental station in which the camp physician had some function or another either of selection or of execution, I personally do not know, to what extent Dr. Hoven was involved in each of these individual cases. I must point out that the camp physician always had two or three assistant doctors of the S.S., and it happened repeatedly that these assistant doctors were either strong S.S, men or independently of the responsible camp physician, were also tools of the illegal camp administration. This, as far as responsibility is concerned, the programs were a little confused, and a former prisoner from the prisoners' hospital who experienced these things himself would have to testify about them. The best would be a man who had a similar position to mine, a prisoners' clerk, doctors' clerk, because through the hands of these clerks went all the records.

Q: Now, on the invalid transports which you have mentioned in connection with Action 14 F 13, can you state with certainly that Hoven knew about these transports?

A: Yes, I know that for the following reason: Suddenly I believe with the third transports a very large number of prominent political prisoners were to be incorporated in these transports. The SS made out the list and turned it over to the prisoners office so that the persons concerned could be informed the evening before that on the next morning at 8:00 o'clock after the roll call they were to be at the camp get.

Our intelligence service always gave us the opportunity to know the special significance of such announcements. When the list of this transport was known by the illegal camp administration an appeal was made at once to Dr. Hoven, and I know that it was thanks to the intervention of Dr. Hoven with the SS camp administration that this group of political prisoners were taken of the transport list.

I also know from the clerks of the prisoners hospital that Dr. Hoven had something to do with Action 14 F 13. At a much later time, in the first days after the liberation of the Concentration Camp Buchenwald about on the 16th of April 1945, I was given carbon copies of an exchange of letters which Dr. Hoven had with the chief physician of the so-called mental institution in Bernburg, a certain Dr. Eberl. This correspondence shows clearly that Dr. Hoven was connected with this action. In what function and to what extent his activity went, I cannot say.

Q: Now, you have mentioned an instance when Hoven was instrumental in removing some Reds from one of these invalid transports. Do you know of any occasion when Hoven saw to it that some Greens or perhaps some other inmates were included in these transports?

A: I do not know of any individual case, but I do know the fact; it was a regular phenomenon in the camp that people who were undesirable to the illegal camp administration for any reason, but who, for any reason could not be killed within the camp, were put on such lists for death transports, so that the death of these people occurred outside of the camp of Buchenwald.

Now, while I have been saying this, I remembered one case, a political senior camp inmate I name Wolff, a former German national captain, according to the opinion of the illegal camp administration based on a number of indications had begun to work with the SS against the illegal camp administration. With the aid of Dr. Hoven this senior camp inmate I was sent to a camp at the Beltic sea.

I believe I can recall that Dr. Hoven even sent a latter to the camp physician there to inform this camp physician about Wolff's quality in the Buchenwald camp. After a few months we learned through transports prisoners that Wolff had died there.

Q: Can you state whether any non-German nationals were included in these invalid transports?

A: The sick transports without distinction included all nationalities. At the end, in the Buchenwald camp we had representatives of no less than thirty nations.

Q: Now, going back for a moment to Hoven's relationship to the so-called Reds, do you state that Hoven worked with the Reds because he had been corrupted by them; that is, given clothing, food and gifts of various kind?

A: It is very difficult to determine the motives of a human being afterwards and during an action. I can only judge from facts which I know and from statements which were made. I can only conclude that both motives, the political motive and the motive of corruption, were active in the case of Dr. Hoven. If Dr. Hoven expressed any desire, and he expressed many desires, then these wishes were always filled.

Q: Did he ask for any gifts for his girlfriend perhaps?

A: That too happened. Artists were given orders, assignments, to work for Dr. Hoven. Sometimes they were people whom Dr. Hoven had saved from death transports who tried to foresee all the wishes that Dr. Hoven had. In other words, he himself expressed such wishes constantly and all possible advantages were given him by such people whom he had saved.

Q: Do you know whether Dr. Hoven personally killed any of these so-called traitors to the Reds?

A: I cannot testify precisely in which cases Dr. Hoven directly, personally, killed such spies. I heard repeatedly from the political prisoners working in the prisoners hospital who were my friends, that Dr. Hoven himself killed people.

Q: Did you hear in what manner this was done?

A: In most cases by injections of chemicals which were either poison or were given in quantities big enough to induce death; for example, evipanatrium phenol, but it also happened that air was injected into the heart so that air embolisms occurred.

Q: Can you give the Tribunal any accurate estimate of the number of people killed by Hoven in Buchenwald?

A: That is not easy to say. I must make a distinction. It happened that a whole ward was disposed of in order to make room, or in the course of a TB program, whole rows of prisoners were killed. I do not say that this happened during Dr. Hoven's period or was his responsibility in every case, but during his period too, such killings occurred repeatedly. A medical assistant named Wilhelm, a Hauptscharfuehrer, could have carried them out too, or the SS camp leader Gust, a violent anti-Semite, took from the remaining Jews who were still in Buchenwald, took five or six whom he had noticed on some occasion or other because they were working as bricklayers. He sent them to the prisoners hospital and had them killed there. I know that such things happened repeatedly, also, during the period when Dr. Hoven was camp physician. As for spies, that is, real or suspected traitors, during Dr. Hoven's period I would estimate that up to a hundred persons were killed.

Q: Do you know of any cases of killings in which Hoven was implicated which were unconnected with the struggle between the Reds and the Greens?

A: At the moment I can remember a single case which, however, was not quite independent of the internal conditions in the camp. It concerned Polish citizens. In 1943 a few Poles in the camp were suspected of having prepared some action against the SS. The Poles who were considered the leaders of this plot were taken to Block 46, were isolated there. I and a few of my comrades, since I had already be working for Dr. Ding a few weeks, tried to help these comrades. Two of them who were Polish doctors, I knew very well. We tried to save them. It was a matter of hours and then two doctors, Dr. Hoven and Dr. Ding, were not there but were expected back at the camp. No one could get to them except me. When the two doctors came to the Pathology Section, I approached them. I believe Dr. Hoven saw me personally for the first time in the camp. Dr. Ding had already know me for a few weeks and I spoke to Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding and Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Hoven and asked them not to kill these men. Both of them asked me why I made this suggestion. I said, "These men are Polish patriots and there is no reason to kill them." I was told, "They are Polish Nationalists, Polish Chauvinists." I said, "I know the two doctors." One of them was Dr. Chiepielowski whom I have already mentioned. I said, "I know the two doctors. They are good Polish patriots." The answer was that "it doesn't make any difference." I said, "Sturmbannfuehrer and Hauptsturmfuehrer, that is exactly the limit which is important." They laughed. They said, "We will see what can be done."

The interview lasted perhaps five minutes. The two doctors left the Pathology Section and went to the prisoner's hospital. The Polish were taken there from Block 46 for a last interrogation in the presence of three prisoners of the prisoner's hospital. Dr. Chiepielowski who spoke German better -- he had taken lessons from me before -- was able to answer more or less and was spared. The others were killed by injections. Who actually killed the other three persons, whether it was Dr. Ding or Dr. Hoven, I did not see myself. It was said in the camp that each of the two doctors had killed one of the prisoners, one or two, but I cannot say myself.

Q: And, of course, it is true, is it not, that Hoven was connected with the deaths which took place in Block 46, which, of course, was not connected with the struggle between the Reds and the Greens in the camp?

A: Yes and no. Insofar as Dr. Hoven was Dr. Ding's deputy and is said to have carried out actions in Block 46 within the series of experiments, no. Insofar as certain political or other prisoners were more or less smuggled to Block 46 through camp intrigues to be killed there and if such actions then were carried out by Dr. Hoven, yes. I know of one case of the latter type. There were two prisoners named May and Friedemann. Standartenfuehrer Koch from Buchenwald had Syphilis. He would not let himself be treated by the SS doctors, but prisoners from the prisoners' hospital treated him. They were not doctors themselves and acquired their medical knowledge only in the prisoners' hospital. One of them was an iron worker before. They treated him so that he was satisfied. Later through the investigations of Dr. Morgan this was about to become known. The two men who were very prominent members of the illegal camp administration were sent to the outside command at Gosslar and had them shot while trying to escape there. Of course, they did not try to escape. Two people, this May and Friedemann, whom I mentioned, were witnesses of this happening; they were sent to Buchenwald. When Standartenfuehrer Koch learned about it, they were sent to Block 46. They were incorporated in an experiment. They survived the typhus. They were released as healthy. They came directly to the prisoners' hospital from Block 46 and were killed there on the next day; that is, they were removed as witnesses.

Q: Now, Witness, I think my original question to which you have given a response was not very good. It was compound. Your answer was, "Yes and no." I take it that you mean to say that the activities of Block 46 were at times connected with the struggle between the Reds and the Greens? Is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: You do not mean to say that Hoven was not the assistant to Ding in the operation of Block 46? He was, in fact, his assistant, was he not?

A: His deputy.

Q: And Hoven supervised the operations of Block 46 during the times when Ding was absent?

A: Yes, if he felt his duly. Hoven was often at Block 46.

Q: Now for a last question: you mentioned the TB, the tuberculosis action, a few minutes ago. I wonder if you could explain to the Tribunal what was that action and when it took place.

A: Repeatedly, I believe, from 1941 on, TB patients were killed by injections. I know that I myself who was considered an acute TB case for sometime, although I was not sick at all, was repeatedly warned in the prisoners' hospital to watch out; that I should not be included in such an extermination action, and, therefore, during the period in question I stayed away from the TB Station. The TB Station was at the same time an asylum for those political prisoners who wanted to hide, only they had to be careful, on the other hand, against being included in such an extermination action. They could hide there because the SS had an enormous fear of contagion, and none of them entered the TB Station, sometimes not even the SS doctors.

Q: Were these tuberculosis patients killed right at the camp or were they included in an invalid transport and shipped elsewhere for extermination?

A: In the camp itself.

Q: Were non-German nationals included among those inmated killed?

A: There was no distinction.

MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time, your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE:

DR. NELTE (For the defendant Handloser): Permit me to begin the cross examination, Mr. President.

Q: Witness, if I understood you correctly, yesterday you said that in April 1943 you were in the office of Block 50 under Doctor Ding?

A: In the so-called business office, in the business room.

Q: From your own knowledge -- your own knowledge dates from April 1943 then, to what is this knowledge supposed to refer? The knowledge of the events which you have stated here?

A: Well, as far as Block 46 is concerned, my knowledge originates about April 1943. It is from the information of my friends in the camp.

Q: That is what I wanted to find out. Your own knowledge or your information, I should like to distinguish -

A: (Interposing) Just a moment! May I add something to this? The knowledge of those incidents which took place outside of Block 46, of course, always occurred directly in the camp.

Q: I am interested in my question -- of the knowledge of events in Block 46.

THE PRESIDENT: It appears there is some difficulty in the defendants hearing the translations. The cross examination will be suspended for a moment to give them an opportunity to remedy the situation. The Tribunal will be in recess until the difficulty is remedied.

(A recess was taken.)