1947-01-10, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 10 January 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal his now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, ascertain if the defendants are present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in the court.
DR. KAUFMANN (Attorney for the defendant Rudolf Brandt): Mr. President, in reference to my application yesterday concerning the witness Merton, I have the following explanation to make. Lt. Garrett has told me that the information that the witness Morton was a prosecution witness was a misunderstanding. Independently of this, the prosecution has told me that they do not intend to examine my witnesses before they appear before the court. Therefore, I consider my application settled.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so snow.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, two of the problems that we will clear up the first thing this morning, one, the translation of two documents we wish to delay for a matter of an hour or two while we are getting them processed and in the meantime prosecution would like to call a witness as to the sulfanilamide experiments at Ravensbruck. This witness has just been able to arrive in Nurnberg and we have previously introduced two affidavits from the witness, Sofia Magzka, her name is. At this time we would like to call the witness Sofia Magzka for examination.
May I explain, Your Honor, she will give her name and take the oath in Polish and will testify in German. The gentleman here is a Polish interpreter.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Sofia Magzka is present in court. The witness will raise her right hand. You will translate the oath to the witness as I read it.
I, Sofia Magzka, do solemnly swear that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and. nothing but the truth, so help me God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be seated.
I will now administer the oath to the interpreter. Raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I do solemnly swear that I will perform my duties as interpreter to the Tribunal to the best of my ability and skill, so help me God.
(The interpreter repeated the oath.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, for the convenience of the court would you testify before this Tribunal in the German language?
A: I am prepared to testify in German.
Q: Witness, your name is Sofia Magzka?
A: My name is Sofia Magzka.
Q: You spell your last name M-A-G-Z-K-A?
A: Yes.
Q: You were born on November 30, 1905, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You were horn in Cracow, the Austrian part of Poland?
A: Yes, I was born in Cracow.
Q: Witness, what is your present address?
A: Cracow, Szlak 55.
Q: Now, witness, from 1916 to 1924 you studied at the public high school and junior college, that is, the Gymnasium in Cracow, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You graduated in 1924 from the Gymnasium?
A: Yes.
Q: And in 1924 did you enter the medical school of the University of Cracow?
A: Yes.
Q: You completed your studies at that university in 1930, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you receive your medical degree from that university?
A: On the 30th of June, 1930.
Q: And you are now a medical doctor, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, from 1930 to 1932 were you rotating intern at the medical clinic in Cracow?
A: Yes.
Q: At the same time were you at the X-Ray Institute of Cracow, public health, public insurance hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: After you completed your internship in 1932 did you do postgraduate work at the X-Ray Institute of University of Vienna?
A: Yes.
Q: You later attended the University of Utrecht?
A: Yes.
Q: From 1932 to 1935 did you hold a position as assistant at the X-Ray Department of the Public Insurance System in Cracow?
A: 1934 to 1935.
Q: Now, after that did you serve as chief physician in charge of the X-Rag department of the Catholic Brothers Hospital in Cracow?
A: Yes.
Q: What period of time did that cover?
A: January 1936 until was arrested.
Q: At the same time from 1939 to 1941 did you also do private consulting practice as an X-Ray specialist in addition to your hospital work?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness, when and where were you arrested?
A: Cracow, in September 1941.
Q: Will you tell me what was the reason for your arrest. What was the reason for your arrest, witness?
A: I was with my mother and my brother when I was arrested as a suspect for belonging to a secret organization.
Q: You were arrested, I presume, by the Gestapo, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: After your arrest where were you sent for imprisonment?
A: I was sent to the Protectorate Police in Cracow.
Q: Then were you actually sent to the Ravensbruck Concentration camp?
A: I was taken to the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp on 13 September 1941.
Q: Did you remain at the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp until when, until May 2nd, 1945?
A: On 26 April 1945 I left the camp, and I was taken to Sweden where I arrived on 2 May 1945.
Q: Now since you have been liberated from the concentration camp what have been your duties to date?
A: I had six weeks quarantine in Sweden. After that I came to the hospital at Goeteborg, where I worked first as an extra assistant -- X-ray assistant, from July until the 31 December 1945; 1 January 1946 on until 1 July 1946 I worked as a doctor in a Swedish therapeutic hospital in Stockholm in the X-ray section with a Professor Diesholm. In July I went back to Cologne, and then to Cracow. Now I am employed as chief physician of the X-ray section of the Public Insurance Fund Hospital in Cracow.
Q: Witness, are you a member of any medical society or organization at the present time?
A: Yes. I belong to the Polish X-ray Physicians Society, and I am also a member of the International Federation of University Women.
Q: Now, witness, you say you entered the concentration camp at Ravensbruck in September 1941?
A: Yes.
Q: What duty or duties were assigned to you as a prisoner in the camp?
A: After four weeks quarantine, I was assigned to the hardest statistical work. I worked in the State Building; after that I was sent to the factories, first, to straw plating shop and afterwards to a manual camp where I had to work day and night in a shop in town. After a period of two weeks I was taken into a hospital as a charwoman. In July 1942 I was sent back to the hospital and I was working in the X-ray section. I stayed in the hospital one year, from 24 July 1942 until 21 July 1943, and on that day I was sent to Dachau Station as a suspect, and on that day having been sent to the bunker. I remained in the bunker for eight weeks in a dark cell, and I was subjected to extreme examinations while in custody. After eight weeks I was released from the bunker, and I was out in a penal column whore I worked as a week chopper for eight months. In May 1944. I was sent away to Neu-Brandenburg, where I was to be employed as a factory worker. After one month of work in the factory I was sent back to the hospital in Neu-Brandenburg, because the doctor had become sick there. On 2 September 1944 I was arrested and put in a bunker in Neu-Brandenburg because the supervisor, Frieda, had found a letter in my possession, and I took the letter away from her, and destroyed it. I remained in this bunker for nineteen days, and I was to be hanged. After the nineteen days I was sent back to Ravensbruck, and because it was only a harmless letter which the German nurse Anna had admitted, I was only punished for my impudence with four days in Ravensbruck.
Q: Witness, you say you were working in the capacity as an X-ray technician for the hospital in the sick quarter of the concentration camp at Ravensbruck for a period of one year, that is, from July 1942 until July 1943, is that correct?
A: Yes, since July 1942 to July 1943.
Q: Now based on your extended time in the concentration camp at Ravensbruck and for the time you spent in the sick quarter in affiliation with other patients in there, do you have any knowledge of the medical experimental program which in as being conducted there?
A: I was given the opportunity to observe the experiments there because I worked in the hospital at the same time, and also in the X-ray section I had to take the X-ray pictures of those who had their bones operated on, and I could see them myself.
Q: Now, witness, we will take these things up slowly and be degrees. First of all, do you know what was the co-called sulfanilamide or infection experiment?
A: The experiment began on 1st of August 1942 when the first operation took place. The first operations were of infectious operations, on which the surface preparations were used.
Q: Now you say this sulfanilamide or infection experiment began about 1 August 1942, and they were carried on then until what date? When did they finish working on that particular type of experiment?
A: All the experiments were ended in March 1943, and then another group was added on 16 August 1943, which was carried cut in the bunkers.
Q: Now did they have a group of experiments also referred to as Bone Transplantation experiments?
A: There were also bone operations, in my opinion three types of bone operations, in the infection bone transplantation, for the removal of the bone, and was called "bone splinters".
Q: Now when did these bone transplantation experiments began with the removal of the bone?
A: When the infection experiments were in progress, a few weeks later the bone experiments were begun.
Q: In other words, with such experiments, the time of the infection experiments and the bone experiments ran along parallel, or simultaneously, is that correct?
A: Yes, and at the same time other rooms were prepared for the so-called Aseptic operations.
Q: Now, witness, did you ever hear of muscle and nerve experiments?
A: In the bone experiments were incorporated those operations when they continued with the muscle experiments and with the experiments on the nerve.
Q: Now, in other words, witness for the most part these experiments were in progress during your time on duty in the hospital at Ravensbruck?
A: Yes, I was there the whole time.
Q: Do you have any knowledge of other experiments consisting of removal of whole extremities of the body?
A: Yes, such experiments were also carried out at the same time and somewhat later than the first experiments, that is, I think they were about the beginning of 1943.
Q: Now, witness, during the course of these Aseptic experiments, did you observe the type of medical experiments which were being administered on the victims?
A: They were taking care of the patients during only the first few days. Afterwards they remained without any proper medical care whatever for their recovery, or without any scientific control.
Q: Then would you say these girls who were subjected to these experiments after the first day or two were very badly neglected medically?
A: Yes.
Q: Now after they were operated on, or after the first infection experiment, how long was it before they were administered sulfanilamide?
A: To that extent, of course, I know it was only done just a few days, and later they received drugs, such as morphine, if they had very great pains.
Q: Now, witness, did you ever hear, or know of your own knowledge, or do you have any reason to believe that tetanus had been deliberately administrated as a test in the course of these experiments?
A: I saw one case on a Veronica Kraska, who according to a clinical picture was infected with tetanus, and.
then later was given sulfanilamide.
Q: In your position as a doctor, will the application of sulfanilamide prevent the tetanus infection from killing the victim?
A: Yes, an attempt was made with sulfanilamide.
Q: Mow in your position as a physician do you think that sulfanilamide would prevent this tetanus infection causing a very severe injury, or causing the death of the victim after the sulfanilamide had been applied?
A: These were only experiments. I do not know from a medicinal viewpoint that tetanus can be cured with sulfanilamide.
Q: Now, witness, in the course of these experiments, do you know the number of Polish girls subjected to such experiments?
A: There were altogether 74 Polish girls who were operated upon. Also, there was one German Jehovah's Witness and one Ukrainian girl; altogether 76.
Q: Now, witness, do you know whether or not any of these 76 persons, subjected to these experiments, died as a result thereof?
A: Yes, five died because of these experiments.
Q: Do you know the names of the five girls that died as a result of these experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: What are their names first?
A: The first was Weronika Kraska. She died from tetanus infection which was given her.
Q: Now witness, you have stated that Weronika Kraska died as a result of those experiments. Now would you kindly explain to the Tribunal the case of Weronika Kraska, as you know it, giving in detail the operations performed upon her, the treatment she received, and in your opinion, the cause of her death.
A: After a few days after the operation, typical tetanus symptoms appeared which lasted only a brief time and which led to death.. The disease lasted only a few hours. She died under typical cramps caused by tetanus.
Q: Now, witness, do you think that there was any possible way that this particular victim, Weronika Kraska, could have been saved?
A: From the medical point of view, one could think that if one gives tetanus, one should give serum against tetanus; but here, sulfonamide was given on an experimental basis and medicine has had no experience as to whether sulfonamide helps against tetanus. It was tested and she died.
Q: Now, witness, would you say as a doctor, that an amputation would possibly have saved the life of Weronika Kraska?
A: No, amputation, no; in tetanus?
Q: Now, witness, do you fell that this infection in the case of Weronika Kraska, that death was just a method by which they were establishing some of the scientific points in the course of the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: In other words, do you feel that Weronika Kraska was doomed to die from the moment she underwent the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, you have given us the name of Weronika Kraska, do you know the names of any of the ether four-- the remaining four that died as a result of these experiments?
A: Yes, I know the names.
Q: Would you repeat the names, please?
A: Zofia Kiecol and Aniela Lefanowicz, Alfreda Prus, Kazimiera Kurowska.
Q: Now, witness, you have outlined that you saw the cause of the death of Weronika Kraska. Now would you kindly outline, the same manner, your opinion as to the death of Kazimiera Kurowska?
A: In my opinion and according to the clinical observations, Kurowska had been infected with gangrene bacillus. She was a young, 23 year old, healthy girl. The disease progressed slowly. From day to day, the leg became blacker and more swollen. They week care of her only for the first few days. After that, she was taken to Room 4 where she lay for days in unbelievable pains and died helpless.
Q: Now, witness, do you mean to say that when she was brought to this Room 4 she was loft these for days without any medical aid at all?
A: Yes.
Q: Now in this case, did you have an opportunity to observe her personally?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you observe her while she was in this condition of incredible pain?
A: She was there four or five days before she died.
Q: Do you think, in your opinion, there was anything that could have been done immediately to have saved the life of Kurowska?
A: Yes, yes. Her leg should have been amputated immediately in order to save her life.
Q: Now do you say that she was completely left in this room to her own natural resources, that is, by herself, just to care for herself? Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, do you know of any further conditions in the case of this young lady while she was in this Room No. 4 that might be of interest to the Tribunal?
A: I and others observed her and we gave her what help we could; that is, we gave her water, we spoke to her and we prayed for her. And also, I talked to a prisoner, Gerda Quernheim, who asked me, "What do you think, can she be saved?" And I said, "Yes, if they amputate," And she asked, "Do you think that will be done?" I answered, "I don't think so because if they intended to do it, they would have done it already." This shows clearly that it could be controlled; that they did not want to amputate in the case of Kurowska to save her life.
Q: Now, witness, you have stated that another one of the girls that died was a girl named Aniela Lefanowicz?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you kindly toll the Tribunal, in your own words, what the conditions were existing during the course of the experimentation on this young lady and what was the cause of her death?
A: In my opinion, Aniela Lefanowicz was infected with oedema malignum. The leg kept swelling more and more. The vessels eroded and she died of bleeding. She was not given the correct necessary care. The vessels should have been tied off or an amputation should have been carried out to save her.
Q: Now, doctor, you have stated that in this condition you felt that the blood vessels became corroded and there were hemorrhages of some sort.
A: Yes, there were hemorrhages from eroded vessels.
Q: How was there anything done at all for this young lady?
A: If anything was done, it was only in the first two days or three days when we had no access; afterwards, she was completely neglected so that we could got in and look at it. And that is how I was able to observe it.
Q: Now would you say that the death was a painful and miserable one?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, the fourth girl that died as a result of these experiments, her name is Zofia Kiecol. Would you tell us about the conditions existing during the experimentation upon this young lady which finally resulted in her death?
A: Zofia Kiecol died in the same way as Lefanowicz. They were similar cases.
Q: Now, was this girl, Zofia Kiecol, treated with sulfanilamide preparations?
A: The first two or three days when we had no access to her, she was given drugs. Later, nothing was done for her either.
Q: And you say that she was given the sulfanilamide preparations for a period of two or three days and then completely forgotten thereafter?
A: Yes.
Q: Well then from such conditions as that, would you think, as a doctor, that the reason was that there was an effort being made to test what would happen if the patients were given only a limited amount of sulfanilamide?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, would kindly tell us what happened to Alfreda Prus, the other girl that died as a result of these experiments?
A: Alfreda Prus was also affected with oedema malignum. Alfreda proved to be stronger than Kiecol and Lefanowicz, and for that reason she lived a few days longer. For that reason, she was also taken to Room 4 to die there helplessly. The beautiful, young, 21 year old girl, a university student, sacrificed her life in terrible pain and died of hemorrhage.
Q: Now you say that this girl was only twenty-one years of age. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know her very well, witness?
A: I knew her well only from the camp.
Q: What did you say? Was she a beautiful girl, witness?
A: Yes, a very pretty girl -- twenty-one years old -- a university student.
Q: A very intelligent girl?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, did you know Miss Kusmierczuk?
A: Maria Kusmierczuk is the name. That is the friend of Alfreda Prus. She was also a university student. The two were infected at the same time and the two were in two different rooms. Maria Kusmierczuk is the only one that survived the actual infection and is living. She was sick in the hospital for a very long time, and she was released when she was not yet healed. Only transplations carried out much later helped the wound to heal. The transplantation was not carried out by the doctors who conducted the experiments, only by the doctors who worked in the hospital much later. That was Dr. Treide.
Q: Now, witness, you say that Miss Kusmierczuk was the only survivor of the experiments of oedema malignum. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
MR. HARDY: If it please the Court, Maria Kusmierczuk was one of the witnesses that appeared before this Tribunal early in the case.
Q: Now, doctor, there were also groups of girls infected with streptococcus and staphylococcus?
A: Yes. There was large groups of girls who were infected with streptococcus and staphylococcus.
Q: Were these girls treated better, the cases you have just outlined? Were they given any surgical aid?
A: These girls survived and had pains and their legs gave out pus and they did not die. For that reason they were given bandages from time to time when the doctors felt like it. Sometimes they waited three days, sometimes four days.
There was a terrible odor in the room of pus. The girls waited to get help in the night. There was no personnel. They had to help each other.
Q: Now, witness, who were the doctors who performed these experiments on these girls that you have told us about this morning?
A: When the preparations were made for the operations we were told it would be the Professor who would come and look. That was the last days of July and A Professor did come that I was able to see and later we learned it was Professor Gebhardt, head of Hohenlychen Sanatorium.
Q: Now, did anyone assist Professor Gebhardt in the course of these experiments?
A: Yes Professor Gebhardt came with his assistant. Most of the operations were carried out by Dr. Fischer. There was also a second assistant of Professor Gebhardt.
Q: Who was that, do you know?
A: I have forgotten the name, the name of the second assistant.
Q: Was there anyone else who assisted in these experiments, assisted Dr. Fischer in the performance of the experiments in the camp?
A: In the camp our doctors who worked there helped in the thing, and especially Dr. Herta Oberheuser and Dr. Rosenthal. At that time Dr. Schydlauski was the chief physician.
Q: Now, witness, you have stated that in some cases girls subjected to these experiments received postoperative care and treatment. Has this postoperative came and treatment done by the camp doctors or was it done by Gebhardt, Fischer and Oberheuser?
A: The Hohenlychen doctors only came for the operations and everything afterwards they left to our camp doctors.
Q: In ************************** performed the experiment merely performed the operation and then completely forgot the patient, is that correct, witness?
A: They came to make a big official visit. Then the patients were put in clean rooms with fresh dressings but that happened very seldom.
Q: Now, in connection with the bone experiments, witness, would you tell us in your own words what you know of the bone experiments?
A: In my evidence -- in my x-ray evidence -- I had thirteen bone operations. That is, thirteen cases of persons whose bones had been ******** on. In my opinion there were three kinds of bone operations. They were fractures, bone transplantation with removal of bones, and so-called bone splints. The girls were operated on several times. The operations were to be aseptic but because of negligence and lack of aseptics two of them developed osteomyelitis
Q: In connection with these bone cases did you ever personally have conversation with Dr. Oberheuser?
A: Yes.
Q: ********************** of that conversations doctor?
A: It was the case of Krystyna Dabska. She was sent to me for an x-ray picture. Shortly after the operation -- a few days after the operation-she had both her logs ------. I took x-ray pictures and from that on both legs small pieces, about 4 to 5 cm. long, had been taken from the fibula had been cut out of the fibula. I read on the cast that on one leg periosteum had remained and on the other leg periosteum had been removed together with bone. Because I was of the opinion that attempt was made to check regeneration I asked Dr. Oberheuser, "How do you want to get regeneration of bone if the bones are removed with periosteum?" I was given the answer, "That is just what we want to check."
Q: Now, witness, was there anyone else who underwent the removal of their fibula in the same way that Krystyna Dabska did? Any other girls?
A: Yes. I know of another case. That ****************. She was operated on in the same, or approximately the same way.
Q: Now, do think with your knowledge of medicine, being an x-ray specialist, consequently having good knowledge of bone work, do you think that such an experiment was necessary?
A: No.
Q: Then, witness, is it an experiment or is it a subject commonly known in text books and not necessary to experiment on a thing of this nature?
A: Yes. Every student knows that. You learn that in the beginning of your studies.
Q: Now, witness, you have stated that there were three types of bone operations -- bone transplantations, bone fractures, and bone incisions. Now, in these cases of bone fractures would you kindly tell the court of the conditions in connection with those experiments?
A: I recall two cases exactly. Ja**na Marczewska and Leonarda Bien. In the cases of both of these girls on the operation table several fractures were inflicted on the tibia in the operation and afterwards clamps were put on Marczewska. In the case of Leonarda Bien none. Both girls were given plaster casts and were in the hospital. Plaster casts did not remain long not six weeks -- only two or three weeks and were removed and these bones healed without dressings. Marczewska was operated on once more and the clamps were removed. Those wore fracture operations.
Q: As the result of those operations did they impede locomotion of the two girls operated on?
A: At the time when they were in the camp, yes. I have not seen them now.
Q: Now, witness, of the three, types of bone experiments that you have stated, the so-called bone incisions, would you kindly tell us what you know of that type of experiment?
A: A few were operated on for bone incisions, but I remember one case exactly. That was Barbara Piotrzyk, the youngest of those who were operated on, 16 years old. She was operated on six times. At the first operation, incisions were made twice in each ***bia. Then she was taken to an operation again and pieces of the tibia were out where the incisions had been made beforehand. Once I was given an order when the operation took place that I was to stay in the X-Ray room, and I was brought a piece of tibia that had been cut out and an incision had been made in this piece before; and I had to take an X-Ray picture of this piece of bone.
Q: Now, witness, as a result of these three types of bone operations, did many of these girls develop a condition of osteomyelitis?
A: In the time when I saw the experiments and was able to check on them two had secondary infection from lack of asepsis and treatment. They had osteomyelitis. That was Maria Grabowska and Maria Cabaj.
Q: Now, witness, we have mentioned a third experiment, the muscle and nerve regeneration or operations. Would you kindly tell the Tribunal, Doctor, what you know about those experiments?
A: The group of muscle experiments were rather large. The girls were operated on several times, and the youngest, Sledziewjowska was operated on most often. At the first operation muscles were cut out and at the second and third other pieces of muscles -- always at the same place, so that the legs got thinner and weaker all the time.
Q: Now, witness, do you know what the purpose of these experiments on muscles and nerves was; from your observation do you know what they were seeking for?
A: No. Why these operations were carried out, I cannot understand. Whether the cut-out pieces of muscle were taken to Hohenlychen, I do not know.
Q: Well, then, it might be reasonable to say that these experiments were merely carried out as a histological report of the various stages of tissue reaction, is that correct?
A: I imagine so. I know that in bone experiments that was the point at issue, the regeneration question.
Q: Now, witness, you have referred to other operations, special operations, of the removal of whole extremities and so forth. Would you kindly toll the Court what you know about those other special operations during your time at Ravensbruck at the hospital?
A: Abnormal patients, that is feeble-minded or insane, about ton of them were selected. They were taken to the hospital and prepared for operation. I personally know of two cases which were operated on. The one case that was a leg amputation. I know that the nurses from the hospital brought the woman to the operation room and after some time the nurses took her to the special room where the dead were kept. That was from the operation room, she was taken directly to this little room whore the dead were kept. The door was locked, and then together with another comrade who worked in the hospital, Kusmierczuk, I wont into this room and looked, and I saw a corpse covered with a cloth and where there should have been two legs, I saw only one leg through the cloth. Afterwards the nurses came and themselves personally, without the aid of prisoners, put the body in a coffin and carried it out in order to preserve secrecy. Then, I know of a second case. Again an abnormal woman was taken into the operation room. This day I know Dr. Fischer went into the operation room. After some time, Dr. Fischer, after the operation, got into his car -- he always came by car with a chauffeur -- and one operation nurse brought a bundle wrapped up in linen about as big as an arm might be and Dr. Fischer personally took it on his lap and drove away. The the prisoner, Quernheim, came to me. "You know what happened today Sofia? The whole arm with shoulder blade was taken off". Those were the two cases of special operations which I personally know about.
Q: Now, witness, are you of the opinion that Doctors Gebhardt, Fischer and Oberheuser, whom you have outlined as the ones who worked on and performed these experiments, neglected their duty as a physician toward the patients and that their neglect was the direct cause of the death of the five/girls we have mentioned hero this morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, do you know whether or not any other girls died as a result of these experiments or died because they had been subjected to the experiments?
A: I know that six who had been operated on were shot after the operations.
Q: How many did you say, witness?
A: Six.
Q: Now, witness, do you think that this neglect of care of behalf of Doctors Oberheuser, Gebhardt and Fischer contributed to the mutilation and crippling result of many of these girls who had been subjected to the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: Did this neglect go so far that even in so-called aseptic operations, infection occurred which caused lasting and mutilating osteomyelitis?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, in connection with the five girls, are you of the opinion, from your knowledge of these five girls who died, that that that was the direct result of the work of the three people, Gebhardt, Fischer and Oberheuser?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, you have stated that six girls after being subjected to these experiments were shot?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, could you tell me whether or not Dr. Oberheuser in her position as camp physician could have protected the six girls who were shot in spite of their submission to these experiments?
A: Two of them: Rosalia Gutek was still sick in the hospital after the operation when she was taken for execution. Dr. Oberheuser postponed it. Another, Amiela Sobolewska, was called for execution, but she still had to have an X-ray picture taken -- the execution was postponed; therefore, Dr. Oberheuser twice was able to postpone the execution.
Q: Then do you feel that she could have postponed, in her high position as camp physician, the execution of these girls for an unlimited length of time?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: Now, witness, was there an attempt made after the completion of all these experiments to completely wipe out all the girls who had been operated on in Ravensbruck Concentration Camp?
A: Yes.
Q: In other words, these girls were all to be executed after completion of the operation?
A: A Yes. They all believed that they would be executed.
Q: Now, witness -
A: And they were confirmed in that opinion by the death sentence that were executed on their comrades, that is the six that were shot, and finally in February of '45 again all who had been operated on were called together, and they were told they would be put on a transport to Gross-Rosen, and GrossRosen as we knew from the "Voelkischer Beobachter" was already in Allied hands Therefore they knew that they were going to be killed, but there was already disorganization in the camp and the girls hid. They took other numbers and were able to save their lives.
Q: Now, witness, did any of the young ladies subjected to these experiments volunteer for the experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were any of the young ladies ever pardoned or allowed to return to their homes from the concentration camp after subjection to these experiments?
A: Yes, there was one case, Okoniewska, she was called to the front office, and she was told, "You have been pardoned. You will be set free and sent home," and it was done.
Q: Now, witness, I realize a considerable length of time has passed, but do you think that you could possibly identify Doctors Gebhardt, Oberheuser, and Fischer in this dock to your right?
A: Yes, I can try.
Q: Would you kindly arise from your chair and come down onto the floor and go over to the dock and pick out those three people? Point to them and name them as you choose whichever one. they may be.
A: Yes. (Witness complies)
Q: Witness, you have said that the man furthest over is Dr. Fischer, is that right? Will you stand up, translator? You have said that the person sitting next to Dr. Fischer is Dr. Oberheuser, is that right?
A: Yes.
MR. HARDY: I respectfully request that the record show that the witness has properly identified the defendants Fischer and Oberheuser.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Doctor, would you attempt again to identify Dr. Gebhardt? Did you identify the first, second, or third man as Dr. Gebhardt?
A: It may be that I am not quite certain. Professor Gebhardt looked different at that time. I had an opportunity twice to see Professor Gebhardt. He had much more hair at that time, a rounder face, he was younger, and he did not hold his lips compressed so much.
Q: Witness, was Dr. Gebhardt an extremely heavy man when you saw him at Ravensbruck?
A: He looked better -- especially his face.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will also show that the witness did not correctly identify the defendant Gebhardt.
Is there any cross-examination of this witness by any of the counsel for defendants?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the defendants Gebhardt, Oberheuser and Fischer):
Q: Witness, you spoke of "an assistant of the defendant Gebhardt" whose name you do not remember?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it possible that it was Dr. Stumpfegger?
A: That is possible; I did know the name but I have forgotten it, but if you will mention the name "Stumpfegger", I agree. I know that name.
Q: It was a very tall man, with many awards.
A: Yes; it was a good looking, tall man -- taller than Dr. Fischer.
Q: Other witnesses have testified that in addition to the physicians which you mentioned, there were the following physicians, who conducted operations. Do you know the name Trommer?
A: No.
Q: Do you know the name of Klimmek?
A: Yes; Dr. Klimmek. Yes.
Q: Have you ever heard the name of Dr. Hartmann?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear the name of Dr. Fillmann?
A: No.
Q: You spoke about operations which were carried out in the summer of 1943, in the bunker?
A: Yes; I know that such operations were carried out.
Q: Do you know who conducted these operations?
A: Among the doctors who carried out the operations I did not see Dr. Fischer. I was under arrest in the bunker at that time and I happened to be on the corridor.
Q: So, you neither saw Dr. Gebhardt nor Dr. Oberheuser?
A: At that time, in the bunker, I did not see those three people.
Q: I now come to the case of Weronika Kraska. This is the experimental subject of whom you stated that she died of tetanus?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see, in the hospital, any cultures of tetanus bacilli?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see that Weronika Kraska was injected with tetanus bacilli?
A: How could I see such a thing if it was done in the operation room? I saw the symptoms of tetanus when she was in bed.
Q: Do you know when Weronika Kraska was operated on?
A: It was in October 1942.
Q: Do you know exactly when these tetanus symptoms started after the operation?
A: After a few days.
Q: Do you think that it is completely out of the question that the tetanus, as you mentioned, was not the consequence of an intended infection with tetanus bacilli, but the consequence of an accidental uncleanliness of the wound?
A: No; when she was taken to the operation I looked at her superficially and there were no wounds, no changes in the skin. They had to have the skin clean.
Q: Do you mean to say that Weronika Kraska, when she showed these tetanus symptoms, was not wounded at all?
A: Beforehand; Before the operation? No.
Q: No. What I mean is whether, when the tetanus symptoms occurred, she had no wound at all?
A: On the body -- on the corpse -- as far as I can remember, I saw no wounds.
Q: Then how can you say that, in the case of Weronika Kraska, a tetanus infection was carried out with intention?
A: Dr. Rosenthal said, in our laboratory: "It is tetanus infection."
Q: But he did not tell you that this tetanus infection was intentionally carried out?
A: Weronika Kraska was taken for operation. After the operation, Weronika died with the symptoms of tetanus. Weronika Kraska, before the operation, was healthy.
Q: But according to what you arc saying now, I have to assume that Weronika Kraska was operated on before her death.
A: Weronika Kraska was among those who were operated on.
Q: Well then, how can you exclude the possibility that the tetanus infection did not come about accidentally, because of the unclean state of the wound?
A: I can only say that she died with symptoms of tetanus. I know of cases where aseptic operations were carried out and the people got osteomyelitis, but because I saw that the people were infected with oedema malignum, or gangrene, why shouldn't they have been infected with tetanus too, especially when Dr. Rosenthal talked about it?
Q: So, from the fact that staphylocci, streptococci and gangreneproducing bacilli were used, you conclude from this fact that tetanus bacilli were used also?
A: Yes.
Q: But that is a conclusion?
A: Yes, of course. One person died of tetanus.
Q: But what I want to know is whether you can exclude the fact that, accidentally, a tetanus infection in that connection -- in connection with the operation ---- could have come about?
A: I cannot assume that there was tetanus by accident in the operation room.
Q: You further stated that, in the case of two women, certain limbs were removed; with one woman, a leg, and with another woman, an arm?
A: Yes.
Q: Are these all the cases of this kind of which you know?
A: There were only those two cases of which I personally know.
Q: In that case, I should like to show you the Exhibit 232, which is an affidavit made by you on the 6th of April.
A: Yes.
Q: There you state, among other things, the following: "A few protective custody prisoners were selected and brought to the operating table, and operations were performed upon the entire leg, and sometimes the entire arm was amputated.
Afterwards the victims were killed with evipan, and the leg or the arm was taken to Hohenlychen."?
A: Yes; that is true.
Q: One moment, witness. And then you continue that, "there were approximately ten such operations carried out." I am now asking you, how do you know that there were ten cases, and not only two, as you said before?
A: About ten were prepared, and I personally saw two.
Q: What do you understand by "prepared"?
A: Taken to the hospital, and put in a room and they waited for the operation.
Q: But the other eight were not operated upon?
A: I personally did not see them.
Q: You cannot say that with certainty?
A: I can only say that I saw two for certain, and I saw the others when they were prepared for operation.
Q: So it was not correct, what you stated in your affidavit, that ten such operations were carried out?
A: Ten were prepared for operation and I saw two of them.
Q: The first case which you say that you saw yourself is the amputation of a leg?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know who conducted this operation?
A: No; I did not see which of the doctors went in the operation room.
Q: The second case was the amputation of an arm?
A: As far as Gerda Quernheim told me about it. I only saw the bundle that was carried out. Dr. Fischer operated at that time.
Q: But you did not see what was in that bundle?
A: No. Gerda Quernheim told me that. I say expressly. I described how it happened.
Q: Yes. You spoke about muscle and bone operations. Can you say who was conducting these experiments and at what time they were conducted?
A: The muscle operations, like all the others, were between August 1942 and March 1943. When the bone operations began, they continued with muscle operations. Which doctor performed which operation, I do not know. I was not in the operating room, but I know which doctor went into the operating room. Then the patient, that is, the person who had been prepared for operation, a healthy person, was taken in, and then she was brought out after she had been operated on.
Q: Do you still remember how often this Dr. Stumpfegger, whom you mentioned, came to Ravensbruck for the purpose of conducting these experiments?
A: Less often than Dr. Fischer. Rather often they both came together. It was more at the time when bone operations were performed that the second assistant, hat is, Dr. Stumpfegger, also came.
Q: You state that nerve operations were carried on?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of operations were they?
A: I remember only one case; that is Barbara Pietnevska. Her leg was operated on, and I think that a nerve operation was performed because she had (lameness of the) peroneus.
Q: The sulfonamide experiment, therefore, was not conducted with this woman?
A: No; that was an aseptic operation.
Q: Do you remember who conducted these aseptic operations?
A: Who operated on her, specifically? No.
Q: In your first affidavits, you mentioned the names of the individual experimental subjects; is that correct?
A: Oh, all the names of the operated persons, yes.
Q: Among them, Bokimila Popinska was mentioned?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you quite sure that an operation was carried through in her case?
A: Yes; of course. Not one -
Q: I beg your pardon.
A: In the case of Popinska there were several operations.
Q: Many operations. And how was it in the case of Pilagia Bieschalik: was she operated on?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you quite sure of that?
A: That she was operated on? I know for sure; yes.
Q: You further stated that towards the end of April, you were liberated from the camp at Ravensbruck and brought to Sweden. At that time, was the terrain or the area where Ravensbruck was under German domination?
A: Yes. My transport left the camp on the 25th of April, and the Red Army came to the camp, as my comrades told me later, on the 30th of April.
Q: The Red Army only came into the camp on the 30th of April?
A: Yes; that is what my comrades told me.
Q: And you were brought to Sweden by the mediation of the Swedish Red Cross?
A: I went with a transport which the SS people took to the Danish border, and only from the Danish border on, were we taken over by the Danish Red Cross, and turned over to the Swedish Red Cross.
Q: And the SS people brought you to the Danish frontier?
A: We were taken to the Danish border by the SS.
Q: Do you remember that a few days before the transport from Ravensbruck, there were representatives of the Swiss Red Cross in Ravensbruck?
A: No.
Q: Another few final questions. Do you know when Amilia Levanowitch was operated on?
A: Yes; October or the end of September. Beginning of October. October was the period of operations.
Q: Do you know how many women were operated on?
A: In my opinion, six.
Q: And how many died?
A: Five
Q: And the only surviving woman, according to your opinion, was Kuznerchuk?
A: Yes.
Q: In your affidavit you stated that Maria Kusmierczuk was the experimental subject who had the most severe mutilations; that was your opinion, yesterday?
A: Yes.
Q: You must know that Kusmierczuk was here interrogated in this court room?
A: Yes, I heard about it.
Q: Can you remember when Sofia Kiecol was operated on?
A: Also in October.
Q: And Alfreda Prus?
A: Also in October.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess.