1947-01-14, #1: Doctors' Trial (morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 January 1947, 0930, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, ascertain if the defendants are all present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please, Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in the court.
The prosecution may proceed.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, during the examination of the witness Kogon reference was made to a man named Ferdinand Roemhild who was secretary in the hospital barracks at Buchenwald. Kogon stated that man might mere specifically testify as to some of the activities within the hospital barracks. The prosecution respectfully requests that the witness Ferdinand Roemhild be called to the stand at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will summon the witness Ferdinand Roemhild.
FERDINAND ROEMHILD a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q: Will you raise your right hand and be sworn. Repeat after me:
I by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, your name is Ferdinand Roemhild?
A: Yes.
Q: You were born on 11 April 1903?
A: 1903.
Q: Where were you born, witness?
A: Frankfort am Main.
Q: You are a citizen of Germany?
A: Yes.
Q: What is your present address?
A: Hebel Strasse 15.
Q: Witness, what is your educational background?
A: I went to a high school. Then I studied for a few years in Frankfurt on the Main and I later became a merchant.
Q: When did you complete your education?
A: In the year of 1925.
Q: After 1925 your occupation was that of a merchant, witness?
A: Yes, for sometime I was unemployed.
Q: After the completion of your education and until your arrest in March, 1935, what was your employment? What did you engage in during that time?
A: I didn't quite understand the German translation.
Q: Would you kindly outline for us, witness, what your employment was between the dates of the completion of your education and until March 1935?
A: For sometime I worked as a correspondent and then I worked until 1934 in my own business, together with a friend of mine.
Q: Did you ever become associated with the German Communistic Party?
A: Ever since December of 1934 I worked with the illegal Communistic Party and spread illegal leaflets.
Q: In other words, witness, you were engaged in political activities which were construed to be anti-Nazi?
A: Yes.
Q: And for that reason were you placed under arrest?
A: On March 20, 1935, I was arrested and was indicted because of preparing to commit treason. In November, 1935 I was sentenced to three years penitentiary, a sentence which I served until March, 1938 in the penitentiary of Kassel. After serving this sentence I was sent to the concentration camp of Buchenwald where I remained over since April 2, 1938, until my liberation on April 11, 1945.
Q: Then you were an innate of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp for a period of approximately seven years, is that correct, witness?
A: Yes, for about seven years.
Q: Now, prior to your arrest in 1935 were you ever arrested or in the custody of the police?
A: No this was my first sentence.
Q: Now, returning to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, what was your first duty in the camp?
A: At first I did physical work in the camp of Buchenwald. I went to the quarry, and then was put on various difficult tasks until finally, in the year of 1939, after having worked in the office for some time and in the photographic department of the camp, I became a clerk in the hospital of the concentration camp.
Q: When did you become a clerk in the hospital barracks of the concentration camp?
A: In the summer of 1939.
Q: Were your duties there as clerk solely of an administrative nature?
A: At first I was active as a clerk in the First Aid Department and then later on was sent to the so-called administrative office where I had dealings with registrations, etc., and also for some years I had to take care of the monies belonging to the inmates.
Q: Now, witness, in the spring of 1940, approximately one year after you were assigned to duty in the hospital barracks, did you become the first clerk in the camp.... in the first camp physician's office?
A: The first clerk -- yes, I became that in the summer of 1943.
Q: Then were you assigned to duty as a subordinate clerk in the first camp physician's office in 1940?
A: The German translation isn't coming through very well.
Q: I repeat, witness. Differentiating between your duties as a clerk in the hospital barracks, were you in 1940 assigned as a clerk in the office of the first camp physician?
A: The year of 1943, yes.
Q: Now, in your duties in the camp as a clerk was Dr. Hoven assigned there to duty?
A: For some weeks I worked for Dr. Hoven who then, at the beginning of September or the end of August of 1939, was arrested.
Q: Now, witness, who was the first camp physician in 1940?
A: In 1940, it was Dr. Bliess, and after that, Dr. Koebrich. Some time later Dr. Poppisch came to us. As far as I remember it was only then that Dr. Hoven came to us.
Q: Was Dr. Hoven assistant under any of the three doctors you have just named?
A: Dr. Hoven was at first the second camp physician and then later became the first camp physician.
Q: When did Dr. Hoven become the first camp physician?
A: That probably was in the spring of 1941.
Q: And you continued to work in the office under Hoven, is that correct, and became his private secretary in the summer of 1943?
A: Yes. Until August, 1943 I was clerk in the administrative office and then I became his secretary.
Q: Summing up then, witness, you were assigned to the camp hospital for a period of six years. That is, from the spring of 1939 until the liberation in 1945. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: In your duties as a clerk and as secretary were you in a position to read classified correspondence and reports?
A: Yes.
Q: I assume, witness, that you know Dr. Hoven very well?
A: I believe to know him rather well.
Q: Witness, at this time will you please stop down from the witness box and go over to the defendants' deck and point to the man you know to be Dr. Hoven?
A: Yes. He is in the last row.
Q: What is his location?
A: The fifth man in the last row.
MR. HARDY: I respectfully request, Your Honor, that the records show that the witness identified the defendant Hoven properly.
THE PRESIDENT: From which end of the line is Dr. Hoven the fifth man? From your right or from the left?
WITNESS: From the right -- the fifth man in the last row.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness correctly identified the defendant Hoven.
MR. HARDY: Did Hoven wear a SS uniform while in the camp?
A: Yes.
Q: What was his rank?
A: At the end he was Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q: Due to your position and your association with other inmates and from general knowledge about the camp do you know anything about medical experiments conducted at the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A: I only know about the so-called typhus experiments which were carried through in Block 46.
Q: Do you know the name Dr. Ding-Schuler?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Dr. Ding-Schuler the commanding officer of the typhus station?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: In this position as commanding officer of the typhus station was Dr. Hoven the deputy to Dr. Ding-Schuler?
A: He was at least the collaborator and probably represented him while the latter was absent.
Q: Mr. Roemhild, did Dr. Hoven participate in the selection of inmates to be subjected to the experiments in the typhus station
A: Yes.
Q: Would you kindly tell the Tribunal how these selections were made.
A: Whenever a series of experiments was intended a certain number of inmates were requested. The selection then followed by using the card index system which we had in our administrative office. The men were then ordered to appear and were brought to the block.
Q: Now, did the defendant Hoven over strike anyone off the lists of those to be transferred to Block 46 because of the influence of the political prisoners?
A: Certainly. They were mostly so-called criminal inmates and homosexuals. In only very rare cases were there any political prisoners among them.
Q: Were any of the inmates used in the experiments volunteers?
A: You can hardly speak about volunteers in a case like that.
Q: Were any of these inmates used pardoned after successfully undergoing such experiments?
A: No, I can't remember any such case.
Q: Were the inmates used all healthy persons?
A: They had to be healthy. Otherwise they wouldn't have stood up to the experiments.
Q: Were the inmates used in these experiments, witness, all nationalities?
A: They were mostly Germans since members of foreign nations were always considered as political inmates.
Q: In the course of these experiments conducted at 46 can you estimate how many victims died as a result of the experiments? That is, all the experiments?
A: It is very hard to estimate the number but I would say that it reached the number of three hundred.
Q: Now, witness, after the inmates had been sent to Block 46 for experimental purposes and if an inmate died were records then kept as to the cause of his death?
A: Yes, then a death report was made and the cause of death was always designated as something different -- not always typhus.
Q: In other words, most of the death certificates stated that the inmate died of natural causes. Would that be a correct presumption?
A: Certainly.
Q: Witness, are you familiar with the term "Action 14 F 13"?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you kindly tell the Tribunal what "Action 14 F 13" was?
A: I heard about this action by way of writing only later after I received inside into the secret files. In the summer of 1941 there appeared in Buchenwald a delegation which presumably came from the Reich Criminal Office in Berlin and which selected the inmates, especially criminal witnesses who committed sexual violations, but among then were political inmates. These persons were selected -- they used very cynical remarks while selecting them -- and then at the end of 1941 -- the summer of 1941 -- were sent to transport to a unknown destination. A very few hours after their departure their personal belongings came back -- among them teeth -- so that we were quite sure that these inmates were dead. From a conversation between some of the camp leaders in the room where their personal belongings were, a conversation which one of the inmates heard, these persons were killed by way of gas. A second such transport, which was assembled in November, 1941, contained a large number of political inmates.
At that time it was no doubt thanks to Dr. Hoven that this transport didn't actually leave. Dr. Hoven at that time was under the influence of the political circles in the camp. In the Autumn of 1941 an investigation was conducted on all Jews by the camp physician and they were examined. Those that were unfit for labor were sorted out. We didn't know for what purpose this examination was carried through. We may have thought that these people who were unfit for labor would receive lesser tasks to do.
The list of these Jews unfit for work was sent to the political department and, in the spring of 1942, there followed three or four transports and they were sent away. There personal belongings and their teeth were sent back and we were certain that these people went the same way as the others. I learned, from correspondence which I saw later, that we were there concerned with an action which was conducted in Bernburg, and where a certain Dr. Eberl was particularly active.
The murdered persons were later reported by Buchenwald as later having died a natural death. I myself saw copies of these death reports. I think this concerned an amount of six hundred men.
Q: Where all the physical examinations of these Jews made by Dr. Hoven and his assistant, in order to determine their capacity for work?
A: I don't understand your question.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven examine these Jews that were later sent to Bernburg?
A: Yes; all Jews who were in the camp were examined to see whether they were fit for work or not.
Q: And they were examined by Dr. Hoven or his assistants?
A: Yes; they were examined by both of the camp physicians.
Q: And, as a result of these physical examinations, do I understand you to say that lists were made up by Hoven which contained substantially the names of all those who later were sent to Bernburg for extermination?
A: Yes.
Q: In the same instances, witness, didn't Hoven remove the names of some of the inmates from the list if so requested by the illegal camp management?
A: Whenever the leading political circles of the camp expressed any wish of that kind and communicated it to Dr. Hoven, Dr. Hoven usually complied with their wishes.
Q: However, witness, you say that, regardless of the interference with the political prisoners, about six hundred Jews were transferred to Bernburg for extermination; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You say that, after they left in some transports for Bernburg, their clothing, personal effects, false teeth and so forth, were returned to Buchenwald; is that right?
A: I don't quite understand your question.
Q: after the inmates were transferred to Bernburg for extermination, their personal effects were returned to Buchenwald?
A: Yes.
Q: Were gold teeth and false limbs included in these effects that were returned to Buchenwald?
A: These personal belongings went to a room and I don't know what happened to them. The gold, I'm sure, was then sent to Berlin.
Q: And you say, witness, that the hospital records show that these Jews died of natural causes in the camp itself?
A: That is the way they were reported to have died.
Q: What was the nationality of the Jews?
A: They were Jews belonging to every nationality; mostly Germans, Austrians and Poles, and there were some Czechs among them too.
Q: How many of these Jews were deathly ill, witness?
A: Most of these prisoners were not in the hospital as sick persons. The last transport contained a total of 15 or 20 people, and you could not say that these people were deathly ill.
Q: Do you know of any cases, witness, of the extermination of inmates suffering with tuberculosis?
A: Yes; in the year of 1941, there was a large scale action. We had received a so-called "invalid" transport from Dauchau, and the camp was full of these people. Then, in about July 1941, an action started which was conducted mostly by Dr. Eisen. Those inmates who, it was concluded, were afflicted with tuberculosis, were accepted for treatment in the hospital whenever they reported for treatment, and then killed by injections of evipan.
Q: Witness, approximately how many were killed with these injections in the tuberculosis action.
A: I cannot give you the exact number, but there were approximately 500 people.
Q: Can you estimate, from your observations, how many of these people were incurably ill from tuberculosis?
A: No doubt the percentage of the tuberculosis-sick was very high in the camp, but the largest amount of these people were only undernourished and, in better living conditions, could have been saved without any doubt.
Q: Witness, this Dr. Eisen, who worked on this extermination of tubercular cases, -- was he a subordinate of Dr. Hoven?
A: As I know, Dr. Hoven at that time was the first camp physician. Dr. Eisen was always the second camp physician.
Q: Witness, going back for a moment, to the transfer of inmates as a result of the work of this commission or delegation from Berlin, the first transport that left in the summer of 1941, will you tell us what was the nationality of the people included in that transport?
A: You mean the first transport?
Q: That's right.
A: At that time there were only Germans. I cannot remember having seen a foreigner among them. We were then not concerned with Jews. We had the impression that a new gas was tried out in that case, and that, for that purpose, persons were selected whom they wanted to eliminate -- mostly social criminals.
Q: Now, witness, did Dr. Hoven ever personally kill any inmates in the hospital barrack?
A: Yes.
Q: In connection with Dr. Hoven's killings, did he kill inmates who were, supposedly, unable to live much longer?
A: Yes.
Q: In what manner did he kill these sick inmates?
A: By way of injections.
Q: Were any of these inmates suffering from an incurable disease?
A: Probably only a small part of them, and I'm sure that most people could have been saved under more favorable conditions.
Q: Were these inmates laborers, mostly suffering from malnutrition and exhaustion?
A: Yes; most of them.
Q: How did Hoven get them, in order to kill them?
A: Either these persons were treated at a hospital for some time, or they reported for treatment, or else they were found in a state of collapse and brought to us.
Q: Then, I take it, witness, that the hospital was in a very crowded condition at that time?
A: The hospital was always overcrowded. The furnishing of the hospital was insufficient, considering the amount of patients we had to treat.
Q: Then, witness, would you say that inmates reported to Hoven for treatment, and instead of administering medical treatment, they were killed?
A: That happened in many cases.
Q: How many, approximately, were killed by Hoven with this procedure?
A: That is hard to say. It is very hard to define an exact number, since this extends over a period of two years. However, you can estimate that a figure of a thousand would not be too low.
Q: What was the nationality of the victims killed by Hoven?
A: Every nationality.
Q: Now, witness, in connection with this procedure, did the illegal camp management have anything to do with this work on the part of Hoven?
A: Certainly. In the year of 1942, there was a violent fight in the camp between the so-called "greens" and "reds"; that is, the criminal, and political inmates. During the course of these fights, Dr. Hoven was influenced by the political inmates, and he had to given them his support. A number of criminal inmates were then eliminated in this manner, and lost their lives. No doubt, it would have been very bad for the time if Dr. Hoven had not supported these political powers in the camp, and I do not believe that the camp would have been in a position to save another 20,000 people, if the criminal inmates would have assumed power at that time.
Q: Now, witness, I don't believe you understood my last question. In connection with Hoven's killing the people who were suffering from exhaustion and malnutrition, did the illegal camp management have any connection with that particular procedure?
A: The illegal management had nothing to do with that.
Q: In other words, witness, the 1,000 or more inmates who were sick and need medical treatment, and who were ready to be killed by Hoven, on the initiative of Hoven, with no requests from the political prisoners or the illegal camp management; is that right?
A: Yes; certainly. The political camp management had no interest in seeing to it that these people should die. In the cases where valuable people were among them, people who were well known, it was always possible to see to it that Dr. Hoven saved them, but there really wasn't a possibility to care for the mass of these human beings.
Q: Now, witness, did Hoven, in connection with this fight between the "reds" and the "greens", ever kill so-called "traitors" at the request of the illegal camp management?
A: By request, is perhaps the wrong expression, but he was so much under the influence of the political powers in the camp, that those persons who were dangerous for the camp, the so-called "spies", had to be eliminated by him.
Q: Did Hoven ever kill inmates by order of the Camp Commander?
A: I assume so.
Q: Did you know a man by the name of Gavrilovitch?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell the Tribunal about the case of Gavrilovitch?
A: Gavrilovitch was a Polish inmate, who came from Auschwitz with a Polish transport, and who said that he was a specialist on typhus. But we saw later that this man was lying, and it would have resulted in a shame for the camp physicians and the other physicians there, if this man was ever used there as a typhus specialist. Dr. Hoven was very bitter about it, and therefore mistreated that man, so that, according to my knowledge, Gavrilovitch died, a short period thereafter.
Q: Now, witness, how many inmates were killed by Hoven, or by order of Hoven, in the camp; that is, including all the incidents were have covered this morning?
A: That is a question which I cannot answer exactly.
Q: Would you say that a moderate figure would be two or three thousand people?
A: It is possible that such a number was actually reached but you must not forget that the death figure could not have been lower even disregarding the activity of Dr. Hoven.
Q: Then, witness, you would say that you could not actually say the number, but it was a vast number of people, killed by Hoven?
A: No doubt the figure was very high.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination of this witness on the part of defense counsel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for Defendant Karl Brandt):
Q: Witness, you have stated that the first transport consisted of criminal prisoners which were sent to Bernburg and according to your opinion, or according to the opinion of the camp, the people in this transport were intended for gas experiments. On what did you base this opinion?
A: I have already stated that inmates overheard a conversation of camp leaders who actually watched these die by gas. In addition we made conclusions which were absolutely justified.
Q: Well, you did not establish that experiments were made, only the fact that the died by gas?
A: Certainly, but the selection of the victims led us to arrive at the conclusion that especially people of low mentality were selected and that same sort of an experiment was carried out.
Q: Isn't it possible that these people were just killed because they were criminals and that it was done in a manner in which a mass killing was usually carried out?
A: You have to be very careful in using the word "criminal" in this case because there was no judicial system which provided that a man should be killed in that manner.
No man, not even a criminal person, was legally in that camp. He was only there on the basis of previous convictions.
Q: Were there prisoners there who were so-called "safeguarding custody" prisoners?
A: The so-called people who were in safeguard custody only arrived at the camp at a later period. That was approximately in the year 1943, in the spring of 1943; before that there was not one single criminal prisoner in camp.
Q: But you said that the order came from the Reich Criminal Office in Berlin?
A: Yes. No doubt the admission of the so-called safeguard inmates came from the Reich Criminal Office Berlin.
Q: Witness, do you know a man by the name of Dietzsch?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of activity did he exercise in the camp?
A: When I came to the hospital, Dietzsch was a clerk. He later became buyer for the needs of the sick and then later, as a clerk, came into the experimental station. Than at the end, until the end of the camp, he became a so-called Cape of the experimental station for the sick.
Q: What did you think about him?
A: Very little.
Q: In what way do you mean that?
A: I thought that he was a man without scruples who was capable of almost anything and lots of brutalities.
Q: Do you know of any visits in the camp of highly placed personalities?
A: The camp was often visited by higher SS leaders; for instance, the leading physician, Dr. Lolling, very often came into the camp. He was the only leading SS Fuehrer I personally saw. The other visitors very often went to Block 50, to this Typhus Institute.
Q: Did you ever see the Defendant Karl Brandt in the camp?
A: No.
Q: You did not see him?
A: Are you sure you are not mistaken?
Q: I do not believe that I have seen him.
A: Now if Dietzsch would say that he had heard that Brandt was there would this statement be correct?
Q: It is possible.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I object to the question. He is obviously asking the witness to tell whether or not he would believe credibility of Dietzsch is, of course, up the Tribunal and not to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed.
Q: Will you please answer the question? I repeat, Do you think that Dietzsch's statement is credible?
A: It depends on what you ask him.
Q: So you are of the opinion that he is not very credible and he does not like the truth?
A: It is possible that he has number of things about which wants to keep quiet.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further question.
DR. FROESCHMANN, (Counsel for the Defendant VIKTOR BRACK):
Q: Witness, you were speaking at the beginning of your examination secret files; did I understand correctly?
A: Yes.
Q: You were then speaking of the fact that in the summer of 1941 a Commission came from the Reich Criminal Office?
A: I assumed that it came from the Reich Criminal Office.
Q: You assumed that. Now I wanted to ask you whether you ever saw a written order in these secret files on the strength of which the transport which was sent to Bernburg in the summer of 1941 was ordered by any Berlin Office?
A: As I said before, in the summer of 1943, I became the first clerk and only from that period onwards did I have the possibility to look into the files. Later I found correspondence, I think, of the leading physician with this Dr. Eberl and from this correspondence it could be seen, as far as I can remember, that the gassing of these Jews was intended. I copied this correspondence and I kept it in the hospital. I gave it to my Cape, Pusser, the now Vice-President of Thuringia.
Q: And could it be seen from this correspondence that any higher agency in Berlin actually ordered this action?
A: As far as I can remember, yes.
Q: Can you still remember the agency that ordered that?
A: I believe it was correspondence with the leading physician, Dr. Lolling.
Q: Dr. Lolling?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see any correspondence of the Reichsfuehrer-SS?
A: There were certain decrees of the Reichsfuehrer-SS contained in this correspondence but I cannot remember having seen anything with reference to this action.
Q: Does the same held true in the case of the Jewish action, that is, with reference to the Jewish action you found no order where you could see from where the order originated?
A: Do you mean these invalid transports to Bernburg?
Q: Yes.
A: I am sure that this was ordered by a higher agency.
Q: But you did not see an order?
A: I can not now exactly remember this correspondence but it could clearly be seen that this action was planned and ordered.
Q: But I was interested in what agency this order originated from and that is something you cannot tell me?
A: No, I can not.
Q: Thank you, I have no further questions.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the Defendant Hoven):
Q: Witness, do you know Dr. Kogon?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know him well?
A: Yes.
Q: Since when do you know Dr. Kogon?
A: I made his acquaintance in the year 1940 in the camp after he arrived there in the year 1938; ever since then I know him very well and we are friends.
Q: Do you think that he is a credible personality?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you. I now come to another point. You signed an affidavit for the Prosecution, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: In what language did you sign this affidavit?
A: I saw it in English and in German but I know English sufficiently well
Q: Now will you please answer my question-- in what language did you sign this affidavit?
A: English.
Q: Is English your mother language?
A: No, German.
Q: Do you know the English language?
A: Sufficiently well in order to understand the affidavit.
Q: Whereupon is your knowledge based?
A: What knowledge do you mean,--of English?
Q: Yes, of the English language.
A: I learned English in school and I later studied it at the University and then I further learned it...
Q: Well, now, tell me how many years did you actually study English at school?
A: Six years.
Q: How many years did you study English at the university?
A: For three years.
MR. McHANEY: Your Honor, I cannot see what pertinence the knowledge the witness has of the English language has to do with this case. The affidavit which he made out has not been submitted to the Tribunal and will, of course, not be. I think we are just wasting time interrogating the witness about his knowledge of the English language and I therefore object to this last examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled.
Q: How long did you study English?
A: For six years.
Q: Until what year?
A: Until my matriculation.
Q: And at the university?
A: For approximately three years.
Q: Until what year?
A: Well, until 1925, and I later read English.
Q: And to what extent did you busy yourself with the English language after that date?
A: I read English literature.
Q: I now present to you this affidavit, in the German language, and I should like to ask you to translate this affidavit for me into English, in order to test your knowledge of the English language.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, this can be found in Document Book 12 in the English language; it is the affidavit of Roemhild.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there a copy of this document book 12 on the Secretary's desk?
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 54 of the English Document Book No. 12.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I do not like to take up time making these objections. I have objected to the materiality of the examination of the witness's knowledge of English but since that is being admitted, I would like to raise objection to this test. The affidavit was signed in English and presented to the witness in English. It is obviously no test of his ability to read and understand the affidavit in English by asking him now to translate out of German into English and if we wanted to call up examples we could do that out of our own translation department.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to the Tribunal that a fair test of the witness's knowledge of English would be to submit to him the English affidavit and request him to translate it into German.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Do you think you will be able to translate this affidavit into German?
A: It will be difficult for me to translate this into German.
Q: Please confine yourself to answering my question with yes or no. Are you able to translate this affidavit into English?
A: No, not that.
Q: Thank you. Now I am giving you the English text.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel, at what page does this appear in the English Document Book and in the Deutsch?
DR. GAWLIK: That is page 54 in the German...I am sorry, page 54 in the English.
THE PRESIDENT: On what page of the German Document Book is this affidavit found?
DR. GAWLIK: Page 57, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will proceed.
THE WITNESS: Shall I start translating?
Q: Yes.
A: Affidavit. I, Ferdinand Roemhild, under oath, depose the following and declare:
On the 11th of April, 1904, --- that is wrong. I was born in 1903. I was born in Frankfurt on the Main, and started national economy at the University, completing my education. I worked at a merchant firm in Frankfurt. Before the year of 1934 I was not active in any political circles. In the year of 1934 I became associated with the German Communistic Party and became engaged within the framework of writing leaflets with reference to the mistreatment of political prisoners.
On the 22nd of March 1935 I was arrested. In November 1935 I was sentenced to three years hard labor on a charge of high treason. I was placed in the prison hospital at Wehlheiden, and on the 2nd of April 1938 I was transferred to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. From this date on I was classified as a political prisoner and remained an inmate of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp until the liberation of the camp by the Americans in April 1945.
For the first year in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp I performed manual labor. In the summer of 1939 I was assigned to the prisoners' hospital as a clerk.
Q: Will you go on to the next page, to the medical experiments.
A: Medical experiments at the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. At the Buchenwald Concentration Camp medical experiments on typhus and virus took place in Block-46. I received my information on the happenings in Block 46 from various people, who originally worked in my office and were later transferred to Block 46. As far as I can remember the names of some of these people are as follows: Alfred Leikam, Stuttgart, Karl Brauer, Halle, the Capo of Block 46, Arthur Dietzsch. Also I was in my capacity as secretary and clerk in camp hospital and was placed in charge of money belonging to patients located in Block 46. Since I had these personal obligations, I had also to visit Block 46 on various occasions.
Q: Witness, doesn't it mean in German "as the administrator of personal property; due to holding these personal belongings," it says here?
A: Yes, holding these personal belongings. That is all right.
Q: Please continue.
A: Block 46 was established as an experimental station for research on spotted fever and virus, December 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is of the opinion this test has proceeded far enough. It has formed its own opinion concerning the knowledge on the part of the witness as to the English language. We will proceed to something else.
Q: Witness, you stated that the defendant Hoven in the year 1941, that is the spring of 1941, became the first camp physician. I now suggest to you that the defendant Hoven only in July 1942 became the first camp physician.
A: I cannot recollect the exact date when Dr. Hoven became the first camp physician. At any rate I do know during the action prisoner which took place in the summer of 1941 Dr. Hoven had already played the leading part in the hospital. As to the exact date when he did become the first camp physician I couldn't tell you.
Q: In the spring of 1941 there was another person who was first camp physician?
A: It is possible. I cannot recollect.
Q: If you could tell me the person.
A: Yes, I forgot, Dr. Blanke was physician after Dr. Popitsch. I forgot him.
Q: Is it correct the defendant Hoven only in July 1942 became the first camp physician?
A: I cannot give you the exact date. I cannot tell you exactly when Dr. Blanke was transferred.
Q: Is it possible the date of July 1942 is correct?
A: It could be. I cannot say so exactly.
Q: But you would admit a possibility, wouldn't you?
A: Well, I do know that a camp physician was then -- so that a camp physician --it is possible.
Q: Do you know that Dr. Hoven was at first the Standortarzt physician and had nothing to do with the camp?
A: That is not quite correct. Later the camp physician and Standort physician were amalgamated.
Q: That is correct, But I just want to suggest to you that the activity of the Standort physician has nothing to do with the camp?
A: Yes, that is perfectly correct.
Q: What were the tasks of the Standort physician?
A: The Standort Physician had to look after the SS and had to exercise a certain control function over the camp physician. At tines when the camp physician wasn't available-
Q: That doesn't interest me. I Want to know the pure activity of the Standort physician.
A: I don't know exactly what the Standort really did. At any rate he had to administer to a large circle of people, even outside the camp.
Q: I now come to the selection of the subject for the typhus experiments. In this connection I am going to put to you the testimony of Dr. Hogan, who said something entirely different than you did. On this page 197 of the German record, the witness Dr. Hogan stated that the selection of the experimental subjects did not agree at various times and he said there were four different methods.
The first one, that is during the early period, there were voluntary subjects. These were the first two experiments. Secondly, Dr. Ding asked the camp physician or the S.S. camp administration, to put persons at his disposal for the experiments. That is camp physician and S.S. administration. The third method was that the Reich criminal police office was taking charge of it, and during the last experiments from various concentration camps and prisons in Germany transports were sent to Buchenwald.
Q: I am now asking you, is this description of the Fitness Hogan correct?
A: Certainly Dr. Hogan must know much more about these things than I, since for years he was Dr. Ding's secretary and as such was informed about these methods.
Q: Well, I was speaking about the first two experiments.
A: Yes.
Q: And if I understand you correctly, Fitness, you said that Dr. Hogan, as secretary of Dr. Ding, has more knowledge about this matter, about the selection of the experimental subject; is that correct?
A: Yes, no doubt.
Q: And then I further understood you to say as far as this testimony differs from the testimony of Dr. Hogan, you who really did not have the same knowledge as Dr. Hogan since you were not in Block 46, were erroneous and you would prefer to believe the statement of Dr. Hogan?
A: That only could refer to facts of Block 46, but I really know Dr. Hoven better than Dr. Hogan; then since Dr. Hoven come the activity was in our block. With reference to typhus experiments Dr. Hogan knows more about them than I do.
Q: Witness, do you further know that Dr. Hoven, if he would concern himself with the selection of experimental subjects for the experiment, he did so at the express command of the legal camp administration; I want to put to you that this is what the Witness Hogan concerned, and I ask you to consider this when making your reply?
A: It is possible that the demand of the legal camp management, the political leadership of the camp, played a part during this selection, but that can only concern a part of these persons who were used for these experiments. It could only concern such personalities who could have endangered the camp. This personality, however, existed. I personally had nothing to do with the selection, and I personally did not know the leading people in the camp. How well Dr. Hoven knew these leading people in the camp I do not know. I doubt whether he knew them all very well.
Q: That is just what I wanted to ask you, Witness; considering the circumstances in the concentration camp you cannot say that everyone knew the legal camp management, and conversation which was carried out with defendant Hoven with the legal camp administration; you did not attend them, did you?
A: Certainly I wasn't present during many times.
Q: Then if it was concerned here that the defendant Hoven, as far as he selected part of the subjects for these experiments, did so at the request of the legal camp management; can that be correct?
A: Yes, certainly.
Q: I don't know where you got your information from; did you get it from Dr. Hogan?
A: I don't quite understand you.
Q: Where did you have the information? Listen, I just want you to answer my questions, and nothing else.
A: There was a possibility in this typhus experimental station to save people, people that were looked for by the camp administration; it often happened that they disappeared and then often Dr. Hogan agreed to save these people. That is quite clear to me.
Q: It is then correct, or you at least cannot exclude the fact that the defendant Hogan, as far as he is concerned himself with the selection he did so with the request of the legal camp management?
A: I think it is possible that he considered certain of their wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 1:30.