1947-01-27, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. WERNER LEIBBRAND (resumed)
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Professor, do you know the name Professor Dr. Kurt Blome?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the relation of Blome to Conti?
A: Blome at first was the leader of the medical educational system in the Third Reich and then he became the representative of Conti in his capacity as Reich Loader of Physicians.
Q: Witness, you have stated that the German Rod Cross eventually came under the direction of the Ministry of the Interior. Can you tell us what was the relation of the German Rod Cross to the Nazi Party and the SC?
A: The German Red Cross was developed in the sense of the General National Socialist attitude and coordinated in that manner. As I have mentioned before, in 1934, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler it was coordinated first. It further had connections with the Wehrmacht. As far as I remember General Hornemann played a role with reference to the connection with the Wehrmacht. Then approximately in 1942 something new happened. The SS physician, Dr, Grawitz, became at the same time the managing president of the German Red Cross and that for the following reason, obviously it was attempted to coordinate the entire German Red Cross under the sovereignty of the SS even in an organizational basis. I should like to recall the following event as an example. Dr. Grawitz sent the SS physician Kimmel(?) to Vienna and ordered him to take over the German Rod Cross Hospital von Billrodt and also the leadership of the Rod Cross Nursing Organization of the von Billrodt Hospital which meant in effect that Grawitz, as an SS physician, in his capacity as President of the German Red Cross in 1942 could penetrate organizationally into that affair and thereby bring the German Red Cross under the SS sovereignty.
To what extent Grawitz succeeded doing so, I don't know. I only remember one more thing. I remember that there were a number of chief physicians of the hospitals of the German Red Cross who really were not Nazis in the Party sense and who being afraid that since the Rod Cross was subordinated to the SS, quickly joined the Party and they believed that in that manner they could escape any harm.
Q: Did not the defendant Dr. Karl Gebhardt succeed Grawitz as President of the Red Cross?
A: I found too literal basis for that,
Q: Did one have to be a member of the Nazi Party in order to work for the Rod Cross, as they did, if they wanted to work for the German Government?
A: No.
Q: Then, you stated that the doctors who were working in the Red Cross immediately became members of the Nazi Party so as to be in an advantageous position; is that correct?
A: I said that only in reference to the machinations of Grawitz, of 1942, and I refer to one concrete case something that I know from my acquaintance, where one colleague of mine joined the Party in order to safeguard his position as chief physician and avoid being exchanged by an SS physician.
Q: Do you know, Professor, of any medical organization or organizations dealing with health and hygiene and public welfare that was not under the domination of the Nazi Party of the SS?
A: In the same sense, as everybody was under the leadership of Conti, every medical matter, in order to express myself generally, was mastered by the directive of the NSDAP.
Q: Have you over heard of the Fuehrer School of German Physicians at Althaus in Mocklenburg?
A: We are concerned with the Fuehrer School Altlese in Mecklenburg.
According to my estimation, it was created in 1935 under the leadership of the defendant Blome, Its purpose was to indoctrinate the young physicians in the National Socialist ideology and, as far as I know, this was done during on educational course in the camp in the same way as it was practiced or in the same way as it was demanded of the university lecturers.
Q: Was this course in the Fuehrer School of German Physicians finally compulsory for all young medical students?
A: I am not very clear about that. I am not sure whether or not it was compulsory. I made the acquaintance of a number of young physicians whom I asked about that matter and who told me that they weren't there.
Q: Now, was it possible for the young physician to road and attend scientific meetings, do research work to improve his medical skill and scholarship under the Nazi regime as well as formerly?
A: That, of course, was impossible for the reasons which I had mentioned before and it became very difficult from a medical point of view. The young medical student had to have much backbone and had to be courageous if he really wanted to live only for the completion of his medical education. The many duties in the mentioned Party organization, and the edict that his vacation time could not be used for the completion of his education, ail those matters naturally made the theoretical life of the man who studied, the literary possibilities, that is to say, the reading of the periodicals that of course was still something that was possible for him.
Q: Did the medical students have to belong to Party Organizations?
A: Concretely they did not have to belong but the case was that whoever did not belong to the National Socialist League of Students was considered a suspect and if a student belonged to no organization whatever and then had the intention to make the State exam he often had no alternative but to join that league.
In cases where have may have been known as anti-National Socialist, he tried very quickly to enter one such organization be it the NSKK or some female association, otherwise the admission to the exam would have boon made very difficult for him.
Q: Did the medical students have to pass an examination on racial theories and the Nurnberg Laws as well as on medical knowledge?
A: Part of the examination curriculum was the knowledge of racial and hereditary science, and within that order the Nurnberg Laws were also examined. Very often those laws had to be known by heart, and whoever did not know the laws was quite sure of not passing.
Q: Professor, to what extent was it necessary to belong to the Nazi Party in order to be a professor in any medical school?
A: It is necessary here to discuss the change of the so-called order of habilitation in the Third Reich. Before 1933 every scientifically talented scientist could by making a thesis, a so-called colloquium, and a lecturer could be admitted to the practice of a private lecturer. The private lecturer was called such for the reason that he was not considered a civil servant; he was just a private lecturer who exercised the so-called Wenia Legend, and who remained such until his promotion to a position as a professor. The Third Reich changed this order in the following points: Starting from 1934 the Ministry of Education demanded that as many people as possible should habilitate themselves. For that reason, the so-called Dr. Habil was created. A physiological monstrosity, called Dr. Habil--it was something like that. This Dr. Habil did not oblige one for anything. From the reserve of those doctors selection made according to the political point of view of those lecturers, those who would comply with the National Socialist ideas, and who were considered qualified as university lecturers. The technique of that selection was a far-branched spy system. There was the leader of the lecturers and who had to be a Nazi. This leader of the lecturers employed a number of spys in the faculty, who had to see to it, and watch whether those to be selected were really good Nazis. Those who wore selected were sent to this camp for a few weeks. The leader of such a camp for lecturers was usually a person of little education. I know for instance, one of those leaders of those lecturer camps was a shoemaker to whom was attached a professor. In this camp, and this is a well known fear, there reigned the system of the so-called "Agent Provocateur"; that is, to spy, in this camp people were distributed so as to insult the Third Reich and if somebody responded to that insult the fact was noted down, and this list was kept. After their period in the camp was served, this list was given to the leader of the camp, and he then decided which of the young lecturers were worthy in the sense of National Socialism to become qualified teachers of the youth.
He then sent on this report to the Ministorial Adviser in the Reich Ministry of Education, which Tins the late Marburg Gynecologist, Dr. Brack, and then the notorious Euthnnnsin psychiatrist Dr. Dogridis.
Q: Did the lay Nazi lenders ever interfere with university and medical education policies?
A: This question must also be characterized with a few words. The relation of the National Socialism to bungling was very close. Since, however they did not dare admit this fact in public, and in order not to insult the so-called educated medical physicians, the organization of the so-called Hoilpraktiker system was framed. This meant that the bunglers could organize themselves, and were no longer called bunglers, but called Hoilpraktiker's, and as such they were listed and the list was given to the public Health Office, and after a certain educational period were allowed to practice. But, beyond that, there was yet another institution. A now special institution was introduced; that is, the physician for natural sciences was subordinated to the Reich Chamber of Physicians. Although he was not required to go through a medical institute in the academic sense, he only had to have two yours of education in the sense of natural sciences. It is not understandable that such an organization was considered sufficient, oven when it was subordinated by the Lender of the State. And, I only like to recall the name of Hoss. It is impossible to understand how these people could qualify to enter the medical science; but, of course, there were the so-called transition types-- there was the educated medical men who started connections with this natural science, and I mention the name of Professor Brauche. There wore very serious controversies with nendomic physicians who protested against this interference, and I only want to mention one practical example, Mr. Pruker at one time maintained, and that was rather Into, approximately 1942, that by any of natural science he could cure syphillis, and a strong controversy on the part of Dermatologist Spiethof ensued, and he then finally and to give into Pruker. Hess, was one of these persons who exercised the so-called protective patron over those natural science theory.
And, only after he loft for England action was started against this so-called Heilpraktiker, They wore partly arrested since some political connections wore suspected. It is further known that a man like Streicher issued a periodical, I think it was called something like "Public Health", and Streicher, of course, was strongly interested in medical matters. and who did not shy away in his criticism to discuss medical problems with educated physicians. It was clear, considering the terroristic regime which Streicher exercised, that a number of people helphed him. Things like that became known in Erlangen because of the connections that Streicher had with the Gynecologist, Professor Wintzen So, I summarized again the question that the academic medical science had continuous interference through prognostic and medical tracts, and that it was very difficult to defend one's self against those interferences since there was a number of schooled physicians who were in a business connection with these people.
Q: Professor, are you familiar with a book written in German by Prof. Dr. Well on the ethical code, published first in 1902?
A: I know that book; as a medical historian, I know it very well.
Q: Was not Prof. Well considered to be an international authority on medical ethics and jurisprudence and highly regarded in his time by the German medical profession?
A: Well was a very well-known man internationally and was a Berlin nerve specialist.
Q: Now, in this bock, in this code, did he not warn against the adoption of the philosophy of Nietsche by the medical profession?
A: In the book about ethics by Well which was written in 1902, there is a chapter about experiments on human beings conducted by physicians. It is stated there that unfortunately in the 19th century a number of experiments wore carried out on human beings by physicians. Hell speaks about reviewing approximately six hundred theses where more than a thousand cases of the entire international world became kn n, and at the end of these theses he warns the medical world of such experimental immorality; and in accordance with this positive attitude, the only thing that he states is the following: Every person confronted with such a heretical possibility should consider whether he would subject his own relatives and members of his family in such a manner. He designates the experiments which he described in his book as the consequence of a misunderstood Metsche.
Q: Then Mell did point out that the trust of a patient in the moral integrity of his physician placed a great responsibility on the physician to conduct himself so as not to harm the patient; isn't that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did he not point out that scientific curiosity tempted the physician to experiment without the consent of the patient?
A: Yes.
Q: Then did he strongly warn the physician not to experiment on a patient without the consent of the patient?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Professor, you spoke of Dr. Guett, Dr. Arthur Guett. Now, was he the first member of the Nazi Part to introduce Nazi doctrines and practices into the field of medicine and public health?
A: I assume that you are speaking about Guett; and would you please put that question again, using that name?
Q: Was Dr. Guett the first member of the Nazi Party to introduce Nazi doctrines and practices into the field of medicine and public health?
A: Guett, at any rate according to his own writing, something that can be proved, belonged to those first National Socialist Party members. In his short writing about the organizational system of the National Socialistic public health system, he states at the beginning that he, as early as in the year of 1924, as a medical representative in Labia, laid down the principles of National Socialist medicine and that later, in 1932, he advocated and repeated these principles during a meeting in Eisenach.
Q: Now, did the eventual successor of Guett, Dr. Conti, or his assistant defendant Blome, modify any of these policies and concepts of Guett?
A: May I once more clarify the relation of Brandt? Conti was state secretary in the ministry of the Interior; Guett was ministerial Counsellor in the Department IV which I described before, belonging to the ministry of the Interior.
Q: Did Conti then, and his assistant Blome, carry on the introduction of the same type doctrines and policies as Guett?
A: There is no doubt about the fact that starting with the first formulation of Guett until the last deed of Conti and Blome, there was much that had happened in a terroristic way. Otherwise everything that I mentioned about Action Conti and Action Mitte would have been possible.
Q: Now, you stated that Dr. Guett published a book. Is that the book titled "Structure of Public Health, the Third Reich"?
A: Yes, I am referring to that, and from that I quoted his own career politically.
Q: Now, in this book, do you recall that Guett announced that "the ill-conceived love of thy neighbor has to disappear, especially in relation to inferior or asocial creatures"?
A: That is written in this booklet by Guett. That is one of the central National Socialist formulations of medical matters as, for instance, it was also expressed by Prof. Koetscher, who was active in Nurnberg. He wrote a book entitled "Fighting Prevention instead of Welfare." These are the thoughts which were expressed by the Nazis in the following words: "Christianity did away with nobility and substituted the equality of all human beings. National Socialism demands the racial security of substances with the right blood." And that is entirely in compliance with Guett's formulation, which dates back to 1924.
Q: Docs Dr. Guett's other Nazi description of inferior or asocial creatures agree with the ethics of the oath of Hippocrates?
A: He meant by that something which every National Socialist meant; namely, that only the healthy biological flow of blood belonging to the Nordic race is an the interest of medical science and that everything which is outside this, everything which is outside a biological racial thought, must be considered as inferior by National Socialists.
Q: Then you would say, Professor, that Guett's description of inferior social creatures is contrary to the ethics of the oath of Hippocrates? Is that right?
A: It is a joke of world history that in a book about national socialist professional ethics dated in 1943, the oath of Hippocrates was cited word by word, and that there they referred to the oath. Its of this oath, and they considered themselves obligated by that oath. It is further a joke of world history that among the defendants there is one person who wrote a book about medical ethics in which he quotes the identical principles of one of the most famous physicians of the last century. Christian Willhelm Hufeland, and this is the defendant Mrugowsky. I have stated on this reference that the essential points of the oath of Hippocrates are that the physician is forbidden under oath to commit arbitrary injustice on his patients or to do him any harm. The conception of injustice contained in the Hippocratic oath, which is signified by the Greek word "Aedicia" is one of the most important concepts, - note not of the Christian, but also of the Pre-Christian world, The health of the state in the sense of late is justice and injustice which is mentioned in that Hippocratic oath, and the physician is physician obligated never to harm the individual, never to inflict any arbitrary harm to the end individual, that is, to do him injustice. I cannot understand how this Hippocratic oath fits in the national socialist literature of 1943 and at the time "when everything happened as the evidence has shown.
Q: Professor, have not the ethics of the oath of Hippocrates been considered to be the legal one moral cede of the conduct of a physician throughout the world for twenty-two centuries?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, professor, from your knowledge of the history of medical ethics and medical legal procedure, has the medical profession or the law of any country permitted experimentation on human beings without their consent?
A: Again and again it was asked historically, especially during the latter period, whether human experiments in a large scale had existed before in medical history, and it is understandable that the period of the Renaissance was particularly mentioned in that connection.
Never up until now was it possible to show this evidence historically, and I myself believe that the metaphysical connection of the human being to the time of the Renaissance would not have made such machinations possible. It is, however, characteristic that this experimenting with human beings, as I mentioned before, in the connection of a moral sense, became evident late in the last century. At any rate in its beginning I am of the conviction that this was the consequence of a biological way of thought which fits in with the national socialist program, even in other countries, and as such became evident en the 19th century. There can be no doubt that even idealistic pacifists and socialists developed this thought biologically and carried it out, and as they tried to save it, so to speak, the human cell in the 19th century, by trying to take away from the human being the poison of alcohol as the famous August Fuerel did it, it only needed a racial madness to start the fuel for that and in this way it was believed that by a biological organization the sufferings in the world could be done away with. Such an attitude, overestimation of biologism, was practical in the second half of the 19th century in European culture. It only needed such a goal, this madness as it was practiced in Germany, to create such a consequence which came up here in the evidence.
Q: Now, Professor, in your opinion as a Professor of Medical History in the previously renowned German University, did the majority of the German Physicians reject the oath of Hippocrates and the German criminal code and adopt the teachings of the Nazi doctrine and the attitude of Hitler and of Himmler as a basis for a new code of medical law and ethics?
A: As long as there are physicians in the world who deserve such designations, they will always adhere to the principles of the Hippocratic oath and consider themselves obligated under that oath. Those who did not act in accordance with that oath were either subdued or were criminals. However, it is a minority under both categories and I think that the majority of decent human beings will master them.
Q: Professor, do you believe that the vast majority of the German medical profession would condone under any circumstances experimentation on human beings without their consent?
A: No.
MR HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until two-thirty o'clock this afternoon.
(A noon recess was taken.)