1947-02-11, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. NELTE:

Q: Witness, every new regulation takes a certain time before it becomes effective. The decree of the 7th of August, 1944, was to go into effect on the 1st of September, 1944. Will you please tell me whether the new order as planned really went into operation before the collapse?

A: What had been planned could not be put into a real practical effect before the collapse. The main reason for this was that the agencies with which one had to work became so difficult and the transportation conditions became worse every day so that the connection no longer existed which would have been necessary in order to put the intentions of the new regulation into effect. One must not forget that as early as at the end of 1944 and above all in January and February of 1945 the supreme agencies of the Wehrmacht had gradually been transferred away from Berlin, in part to Thuringia; and when sent from one by railroad to establish certain contacts, one could count on being away for several days. But that happened not only to me; that happened to all agencies, as can be proved.

Q: Then is it correct if I assume that your main activity from the point of view of time and from the point of view of subject matter fell under the decree of 1142?

A: Yes, one can say that.

A: I have had a diagram, a chart handed to you, which is called Medical Affairs of the Wehrmacht" and to which you have sworn. Mill you please look a.t the chart and toll us what the document number is?

A: No. 282

A: It is in Document Book I of the Prosecution. Do you have anything to say about this chart which bears your signature?

A: Yes, I have something to say. First, I must explain the following:

The heading of this chart is "Wehrmacht Medical Service (Sanitaetsdienst) He When Mr. Rapp, who was interrogating me asked me about this Wehrmacht Medical Service (Sanitaetsdienst) he -showed me a sketch which he had probably made, which contained the Wehrmacht and Civilian Matters and the SS. I pointed out several errors and then I was given this sketch and I was to prepare a now one for the Wehrmacht, that,is, for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and I did so. Now I must remark in connection with this sketch that the square at the top above the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service assigned to the Reich Commissioner, Professor Brandt, can or must give the impression that he was a superior of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. He was not. I considered it my duty to make that clear. In this connection I should like to say that a few days later I was shown a report of my career. I do not know who wrote it. I made at least fifteen to twenty corrections because it said a number of things which simply were not true. I recall that it said the General Commissioner, Professor Dr. Brandt, was my military and medical superior. That may have boon at the end of this report of my career. In my corrections I crossed out the word "military", and, therefore, as I can remember it road "medical superior". In connection with my explanation that this is wrong, if one should assure from this sketch that Brandt was my superior, I should also like to correct this, if it is true that the word "military" superior was crossed out in the report of my career, but the word "medical" was loft. I would assume that this report is in the Document Book which contains all of the careers of all the defendants.

Q: Then how would you describe your relationship with Professor Karl Brandt?

A: I would explain that as has already been done here. According to the assignments he had coordinated between the Wehrmacht and the Civilian Sector, and that within the framework of his duties, if it had been necessary, could have given me instructions, whether general directives or in a specific case. I have one more tiling to say about this chart. I made some notations which are unfortunately hard to road. Those notes arose from the two interrogations and some questions concerning the request to prepare such a sketch. The Prosecutor has here referred to a note No. 5, which indicates a note concerning my typhus research institute at Krakow, whether, to what extent and in what way, there was correspondence between the Typhus Institute in Krakow and the Typhus Institute of the Weffen SS I do net know. In any case if there was any correspondence it did not go through my hands. The Prosecutor pointed out in connection with this sketch that this not a refers to a man who has a bad conscience in this connection. This note was made because I was shown a sketch, in which the Research Institute at Krakow was listed under the Wehrmacht and the Typhus Institute in Buchenwald was listed under the SS and a. line had boon drawn between the two. Thereupon, I crossed out this line with pencil, and said that was net right, there was no official connection here. Then I was asked specifically whether they had anything to do with oach other, and I answered as far I know, "no." Because of this incident, the sketch with the connecting lino and the specific question I added note No. 5, as well as four other notes. This was done after a direct question. I have nothing else to say about this.

Q: Now we come to another subject. You are held responsible for actions and omissions of persons for whom you bear the responsibility. That is what the indictment says. In view of the various positions which you hold I must make it clear what group of persons is concerned for whom you must boar responsibility please toll me who were the heads of the agencies of the Army Medical Inspectorate and the "Wehrmacht Medical Service, if you were not present at the seat of your agency?

A: The regulations on this subject state very clearly in the case of the Army Medical Inspector, as well as Chief of the Army Medical Service, the representative in all current business is the Chief of Staff.

By "current business" we mean the normal official business, and in addition to the correspondence there are only personal matters of medical officers who are considerably older than the Chief of Staff and have higher and special positions or if fundamental questions come up of special importance, in which the chief of staff is not in a position to refer to his absent inspector and if he must be reached immediately, in such cases my chief would have approached the oldest medical officer in the field or at homo, but that. hardly happened

Q: It will be very important whether you and knowledge of certain matter precisely, including reports. Therefore, I must ask you what was the course of the business, what happened when the mail was received in the agencies in the morning? How was it handled, and how was it distributed?

A: I shall take the Medical Inspectorate as an example. The procedure was the same with the Chief of the Wehrmacht. Medical Service. The so-called "open mail", the ordinary mail, was Sent to central office, the registry office, was opened by the registrar, and according to the contents was sent either to the Chief of Staff or the heads of the individual departments. "Secret matters" were entered in a special book and the procedure differed at different times, either all sent to the Chief of Staff or part to the Chief of Staff and part to the heads of departments. For "Top secret" matters there was a special register and these things were all sent to the Chief of Staff. A nose things, even the "top secret" things addressed to the Army Medical Inspectorate or representative — the Chief of Staff was empowered to open these. The only thing he could not open was what was sent as "top secret" with my name personally without the addition of the words "or representative in office" But those were extraordinary cases.

Q: I am asking you this because I should like to know whether on principle your Chiefs of Staff knew what was to come to your attention or what did come to your attention.

A: What came by mail they had to know as I have just described the procedure. The only exceptions would be the few "top secret" letters sent to my personal address.

Q: Would it not be a possible exception to be made f r things which the registrar sent directly to heads of departments?

A: Yes, that is true but the heads of departments again had the obligation to work on these matters and, according to the urgency, to present them to the chief of Staff, either immediately or within a few days just as the heads of the departments who reported to me when I was present first had to have reported these matters to the Chief of Staff.

Therefore, there remained only cases which were not questions of male, but where I had negotions or talks with someone. And, again one must distinguish between whether I was there alone or whether there was someone with me. In.m st cases 1 did not a to each talks alone. Generally there was an export on the subject needed and, in the second place, it was practical for me to have my adjutant with me because telephone calls were receive, etc., so that, in general, the person who want with no usually informed the Chief of Staff afterwards oven if I did net so so and even if I participated alone. If they were more or less important matter then I absolutely had inform the Chief of Staff, because in my absence he had to know what was going on, what could happen, or what had seen discussed. Otherwise, it would not have been possible to carry on business of our office, since in my absence tin people always approached my Chief of Staff personally or by telephone.

Q: Then the two Chiefs of Staff who will appear here as witnesses must be able to tell us what you desired on the one hand, and on the other hand what you learned of?

A: Yes, absolutely.

Q: It may be necessary to explain, a few terms important for the questioning of your competency and your authority. A little while ago you spoke of the relationship between superiors and subordinates in deviation from the term "authority" to issue orders. Since your responsibility is dependent an this point I should like to knew whether terms like, direction, management, etc., whether they are anywhere set down and regulated authority?

A: That can be best seen as I an ta give a concrete example established by document. In the Document Book on page 45 and 46, the Army medical Inspector is presented.

Q: I might point out that this is document HA 28, exhibit #2, Document Book I, page 44.

A: The text speaks for itself. It says, under #6 "The Army Medical Inspector is the head of the medical Section of the War Time Army. He is the superior of the entire medical personnel to the bar Time Army in medical matters and he is the superior officer of 11 medical units of the bar Time Army."

A: footnote has been omitted for which is contained in the War Medical Decree which explains what is meant by medical personnel. It says "medical personnel include medical officers, non-commissioned officers, officials of the Medical Service, pharmacists, dentists, officials of the Administrative Service, special leaders in the Medical Service, and volunteer nurses." This shows clearly that this is a superior and I must add that under #11 the following is stated: "By means of inspection he convinced himself of the execution of his orders and of the state f health of the Field and Reserve Army."

In regard to the right of inspections it was not said that he needs to ask anyone about it before hand or even to inform any one.

Q: Then that is a case of the relationship of superior and subordinate as well as the total power to issue orders?

A: And, another one which we do not have a copy here is made equally clear — the case of the Army physician, the Army Corps and Divisional doctors of the Army. In other branches of the Wehrmacht it was the same. It said that they are superiors of their medical personnel in question of medical service and they are troop superiors to medical chiefs under their command. New I should like to say in this case we have a clear relationship in the Army Air Force and the Navy. The Medical Chiefs are superiors of all the medical personnel and if in the Army one speaks of a superior this automatically and of necessity includes the power to issue orders.

When in military regulations we find something about instructions -about who being a superior — this is always a very luke warm and weak and unclear matter. And, if one calls a high medical officer the head of an agency and entrusted direction of it be him without making him a superior and without giving him unlimited authority, this is a very weak uncomprising solution which everyone who understands those matters will recognize as weakness and that is the relationship as one looks at instruction of Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in contrast to regulations of Army Medical Inspector or Chief of the Medical Service of the Air Force and Navy.

That is what I wanted to clear up.

DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I should like to submit to the Tribunal Document HA 50, which is in my 3rd document cook and therefore is not yet available. This is a copy from the War Medical Decree, pages 4 to 6, and deals with the problems of which Professor Handloser has just spoken. I may submit this document now, as Exhibit 6a. Document Book 3 will be handed in tomorrow.

Q: Aside from the medical units or medical agencies, were there also institutes under you or your agencies as Army medical Inspector or Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?

A: Yes, there were such institutes; there Were 7 of them. I should like to distinguish between the 4 which existed during peace time, that is, the Military medical academy, the medical draining Section in Berlin and the Main medical Camp in Berlin, — 3 then. During the wan there were added the Typhus Research Institute in Krakow an Lemburg, the Surgical Special Hospital in Brussels, the Central archives for War Medicine in Berlin, and the Army Mount Medical School in St. Johann. these institutes were directly under the Army medical inspector.

Q: Will you please describe the official relationship which you, as Army Medical Inspector, had with these institutes?

A: They were military organization headed by a commanding officer. That is to say, primarily the commanding officer is responsible for what happens in his military institute; he again is under and is thereby responsible to the Army Medical Inspector, who, of course, since the Institute is directly subordinate be him, on the whole bears the responsibility for it. That was the case with the Academy and that was the case with the other institutes. But I consider it necessary to give an example of what these institutes wore like. I shall take the Military radical Academy and say briefly what it was and what the supervision within the Academy was.

The Military Medical Academy, which we shall mention frequently, is an organization dating from 1795.- Its name at that the was the Friedrich Wilhelm Institute, because the King, Friedrich Wilhelm II, had founded it. After 100 years of existence, in 1895, it changed its name to Kaiser Wilhelm Academy and when it was re-established after the first World War, it was given the name Military Medical Academy It had always had two tasks, in the first place to give the new recruits for the career of medical officer, additional training and in addition, in its own scientific institutes, to help the students; and on the other hand, to carry on such research as was directly compacted wit military medicine.

At the head of the academy there was always an especially proved commanding officer. The picture of the academy in the lover fields was that under this commanding officer there were three training groups, headed again by a Generalarzt or an Oberstarzt. In 2 of those groups there were the students in Group A, those before the physikum the first medical examination, and in Group B, those in their clinical semesters. The third group, Training Croup C, was the scientific group with the scientific institutes. The last director was Generalarzt Schreiber, who has frequently been mentioned.

In these institutes, military medical research was carried on. The medical officers in those training groups, I am thinking, for example, of Stabsarzt Dohmen, who has also been mentioned frequently, Were primarily under the commanding officer of the training group and he in turn was under the commanding officer of the academy and the commanding officer of the academy was under the Army medical Inspector. The organization in other institutes was built up on the same principle; whether it was St. Johann or the Central Archives, it was all the same; only the hospital in Brussels was different, which was purely a hospital and to which was attached a special scientific research department.

Q: You were Army Physician (Heeresarzt) and Army Medical Inspector and until you became Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service your functions were separate. What was the reason for joining the functions of Army Physician and Army medical Inspector? I will, in a moment, point out what is important for my case so that the prosecution does not think that I am bringing the Army Physician into the case unnecessarily. Army Physician and Medical Inspector were two functions which up until then and required all the services of on many a high military doctor.

They were united and a sphere of work was created from which I must assume, without explanation, that it was too much for one person and would perhaps not give you the opportunity to do justice to the responsibility which you had in this high position. Will you please explain this and tell us how it was possible to fill these 2 positions and later 3 positions responsibly?

A: In 1939 I was in Poland. In 1940 I was in France. I was an Armee Arzt (Army Physician). Thus from two sectors, From two theaters of war, I was able to form a judgment about the management of the medical service and of course I also talked to there comrades about it. I was in the first World War, too, and I was able to see that our Supreme Medical Commander, that was von Gernin, as full Medical Chief and Generalstabsarzt of the Army, was in the field, at headquarters, and not at home. He arranged it at that time so that he was in charge of matters in the field himself and that at home he had a representative, who was a Generalarzt, but he himself was in charge of the direction of all matter at home and in the field. In the recent World War the Army Medical Inspector, Walmann, was in Berlin, and a Heeresarzt was appointed for the Field Army. That was certainly not due to the desire of the Any Medical Inspectorate and my processor. That was connected with the military organization and with the point of view that in the field one cannot have any ministerial people with ministerial habits. My predecessor, Professor Waldmann, during the campaign in Poland and during the campaign in France, he was not in Berlin wither; but he had the feeling, just as everyone else did, that the primary thing and the emphasis, — the first concern — was with the troops in the field.

If they were not cared for properly if things did not run right at the front, then no amount of work at home did any good. My army in Poland, as well as my army in France, in spite of the brief duration of the campaigns, he visited my armies repeatedly.

Now when I became his successor, I was immediately confronted with the question in Berlin, if there is a change now and it was known that Generalstabsarzt Ott in the very near future would give up his position, it was said, "Now or Never." This obvious mistake in organization must be done away with and therefore from my own experience, as well as on the basis of the fact that from the first World war and from the preceding campaigns in 1939 and 1940, came that decision that Generaloberst From, who was Commander of the Reserve Army and the Commander in Chief of the army Von Brauchitsch, that I should suggest to them that the two organizations should be united. First, this was to be a simplification, secondly, time was to be saved and third, every possibility for friction, which of course existed between the field armies and the home army, was to be removed.

Q: Then, in your opinion and in the opinion of the army medical officers, you presented the necessity. What is important here, however, is that you say how you created the safeguards, the order to safeguard the responsibility of such a high officer as the Army Medical Inspector. Please clarify your responsibility.

A: The extent of the duty alone, from the point of view of area alone, had become so great as the war expanded that no one in charge, even the Heeresarzt could he everywhere. The Army Medical Inspector at home could not do that, everything had to be guilt upon the basis of the decentralization and on the selection of the best people as supports for the execution of the duties on the principle that the best men should be put in the best places. This was done at home by the selection of the Wehrkreis physicians and by the promotion and support of t heir authority and that was done in the field by the selection of army physicians.

When the area became substantially and the difficulty be came substantially greater, the military agencies, on their own initiative, since they were in the same position, created a new agency between the high command of the army and the various armies — the so-called army group commands, since it could not at first be achieved that army group physicians should be assigned to those army group commands.

Conditions later showed the High Command of the Army that this had to be done later and so at the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942, army group physicians, with the rank of Generalarzt or Generalstabsarzt were created, who were above the physicians of the various armies as connection link to the Heeresarzt and the Army Medical Inspectors. That is a typical example of the fact that the expanded duties and. the expanded area required a new safeguard for the execution of control and supervision and advise.

I should only like to add to clarify the matter, that the Wehrkreis physicians at home, I believe with one or two exceptions, and there were nineteen of them, that they were all even older than I and that a considerable proportion of them had formerly boon my superiors as Wehrkreis physicians or as army group physicians in peace time and that in the field, they were of the same are as I with very few exceptions. They were men with the rank of o Generalarzt or Generalstabserzt, who had reached this rank only on the basis of long experience special achievement. These were not men whom one had to watch or control. These were men who guarantee that they would do their utmost and their best and that they had the necessary experience and the necessary ability.

Q: In connection with this policy of putting the best men in the most difficult posts, there had to be added, I should like to say, the legislative activities; you had to issue instructions, directives, orders, etc.; was that organized in that way?

A: Do you mean these Army Camp Physicians?

Q: All physicians from your point of view?

A: Yes, of course that was alone.

Q: This is what I should like to learn; were numerous instructions, directives and orders issued by you?

A: Yes, of course.

Q: I mention this because unfortunately we have no documents in the Prosecution's Document books bearing your signature. If such orders had not corresponded to the rules demanded of an orderly command, I am convinced that we would have seen them hero. I should also like to ask you if you know of any significant, or were there any significant violations reported to you in connection with inadmissability, or the execution of the military medical point of view or the ethical point of view?

A: No.

Q: I am not merely speaking of the front, the doctors at the front; I am speaking of at home too?

A: Yes.

DR. NELTE: Mr. President, now I want to come to the question of the consulting specialists, on the functions of these consulting specialists, but Generalartz Gutzeit has testified about this as a witness, so I believe I can dispense with this matter; but in this connection I should like to present two documents to t he Tribunal. In the first place an excerpt from the war Medical Decree, No. 222, 226, and 235. This deals with the group consulting physicians in the Army.

THE PRESIDENT: In what Document Book are these documents contained.

DR. NELTE: You will find, these documents in Book No. 1, Page 36. It is document HA 19, and will be Exhibit No. 7, if the Tribunal accepts this document as an exhibit.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it counsel's intention to read the document into the record or simply have it offered in evidence?

DR. NELTE: I merely want to submit it. In the examination of the witness Gutzeit the contents were already presented. It is only the legal regulation of the position which the consulting physicians had.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. NELTE: And the next document on the same point I submit a statement of the defendant Professor Handloser on the establishment of the consulting physicians. I shall not read this either. I only offer it as an exhibit.

It is in the Document Book No. 1, Page 32. It is document HA 18. I ask that you accept this statement of the defendant as Exhibit No. 8.

THE PRESIDENT: In the Document Book I do not find Document HA 18 listed in the index. It is in the Cock, but not indexed.

DR. NELTE: The section which produced these documents left this document out, but only in the index. In the document book itself, on Pare 32, you will find the document.

THE PRESIDENT: It is in the Document Book. I have it. I was calling attention to the fact it was omitted from the index.

There being no objections the documents will be admitted.

The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.