1947-02-13, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received the application of Rudolf Brandt through his counsel to be excused from the session. The Tribunal will consider that matter in it's order during the noon recess. Counsel may proceed,
SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER — (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION — (Cont'd.)
BY DR. NELTE:
Q: Professor, I put my last question to whether any further interferences took place from the party, or rather the party agencies, and I am referring to interference in your sphere of activity?
A: In this connection I should merely like to mention that an attempt was made to interfere with the use of Catholic nurses in our hospital. Repeatedly it was demanded that these nurses be dismissed, and they be substituted by nurses from the Red Cross or the National Socialist nursing association. Up until the end of the war I succeeded in preventing that procedure. These people were excellent in performing their work, and I was sure any substitute would have been a change for the worst. Apart from that, these nurses from the start had been so devoted to their duties and behaved in such an exemplary manner toward our patients that it would have constituted a great injustice to dismiss them. And in this connection too, I should like to emphasize that I on my own initiative probably would not have succeeded in doing that if it wasn't in this case too that I had the help of Professor Karl Brandt against these interferences of the party. He used all of his influence in seeing that these nurses remained in our hospitals and thereby defended us against the attacks of the party.
Q: When submitting documents, I shall submit a few affidavits in that connection.
Now, did you ever attend any large scale party meetings, for instance, the Nurnberg Party Rally?
A: No, at no time at all.
Q: With whom of the co-defendants had you no connection whatsoever, that is to say, as far as there was any official connection. We have already mentioned them and shall report them again, but I now want to find out with whom of these defendants you had no contact whatsoever, privately or officially?
A: Until my arrival in Numberg I had no contact of and official or personal nature with the following twelve gentlemen:
Weltz, Ruff, BeckerFreysing, Rudolf Brandt, Hoven, Pokorny, Sievers, Oberhauser, Popendick, Schaefer, Brack, and Romberg.
Q: During the statements made by the Chief Counsel he mentioned on page 96 of the transcript and speaks about the participation of the German physicians in the excesses of April, 1933, and he speaks about the combating of the old physicians' association. The corps of the medical officers, as I said before was not mentioned in any of those statements. The military physicians on the other hand must be considered a part of the German physician who were active in military service and you are the representative, that is, as Army Medical Inspector, for the army physicians, and later as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service you are the representative for all physicians in the armed forces. In your capacity as representative I should like to ask you whether the military physicians individually or in their entirety participate in any way in the excesses which took, place on the 1st of April, 1933, or whether they participated in my way in the combating of the all physicians organizations.
A: I know of no case and no case was ever mentioned either before the War nor during the entire War.
Q: That is to say, the Medical Officers Corps had nothing to do with these political instances?
A: No.
Q: General Taylor, in his opening speech, on page 98, speaks about, and I quote: "The Prostitution of German Medicine under National Socialism". And, in this connection, he mentioned the principles of medicine to national socialist population policy.
And on page 99, I quote: "The entire public health policy of the Third Reich was put in line with this pronouncement of principles".
And on page 100, I quote: "All German physicians were reorganized through an organization derived from the Reich Physicians Chamber." Although military physicians were not mentioned in particular here I must ask you, since the assertion was made that all physicians were included, were medical officers of the Wehrmacht included and had obligations to abide by them?
A: No.
Q: During the examination and reading of affidavits there was much talk about the organization, its purpose, and meaning of the meetings of the consult, physicians and I shall resist from putting any further questions to you about the preparation, conduct, and results of these meetings. Since, however, this count is connected with the question of conspiracy I should like to give you an opportunity to define your position with reference to the importance of these meetings.
A: In summarizing, I can state the following in that connection: These meetings originated from a mere necessity. They were ordered to take place publicly. On every occasion I made application to my military superior and tried to explain the necessity for these meetings. On that occasion I gave a survey of what I considered to be most urgent problems. Then the military superior decided whether such a meeting can take place or not, because that was something that depended on military situation and the intention of military leadership. The agenda was laid down and a discussion started where these problems were discussed. The results of these meetings were compiled in directives for the benefit of physicians in general, something that was public distributed among all physicians.
As soon as there was a possibility these printed reports were sent out to various agencies and medical officers — sent out to all physicians in order that they may serve as a basis for principal measures and for the information from older physicians to younger physicians.
I am convinced that every physician, and every non-physician, who has an opportunity and takes an opportunity to try to get insight into these meeting reports, will too be completely convinced that therein the serious work in the scientific field of all the German physicians is laid down, opinions that were represented by leading authorities from all territories of Germany. I refer you to my speeches which I made on these occasions and which always constituted a review of the past year, and at the same time a survey of the work to be done during the period to come. And, I stand up to every one of the words which were pronounced on these occasions. The Prosecution submitted one of these speeches as a document. In spite of greatest efforts I, not even up to now, could have found anything in that speech which in any way justifies the severe charge that these meetings were expression and a typical example of a conspiracy of German physicians in order to commit war crimes and crimes again humanity. In conclusion I should like to say that I hope that here at this place these meeting reports will become a document and a mark stone for the serious, dutiful, and almost superhuman work which the German soldiers performed during this long and severe war. And, as the words of Hippocrates were mentioned here repeatedly I should like to emphasize that the German physicians not only were fully aware of these, namely the words "Primem non nocere", but at all times they endeavored to help and to cure whenever they could. And there is nothing further I have to say.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, that brings me to the end of my examination of the defendant and in substantiation of the words which the defendant *ron* pronounced at the end I should like to present affidavit HA-2 which deals with the necessity and purpose of the consulting physicians. You will find that on page 5 of Document Book I and it will become Exhibit 37. I further submit to you a chart of the meeting of consulting physicians on the 17th of May 1944 which took place at Hohenlychen. This will become document HA-2-A, exhibit 38 and it can be found in the annex of Document Book 1. The chart is to show the Tribunal the extent of the work that was done within these two days and the kind of lectures that were given.
Further more, that for the leaders of this meeting and the individual participants it was impossible to listen to a part of these lectures — that all had to confine themselves to their own field. In conclusion I refer to the already submitted affidavit of Gen Arzt Penner, HA-6 which will become Exhibit 26 and the exhibit of Prof. Randerath HA-43, exhibit 32. I finally submit as HA-1, and exhibit 40, an excerpt from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal, regarding, the question of conspiracy and criminal organizations. This is not an evident document. I merely ask you to take notice of it.
JUDGE SIBRING: Dr. Nelte, have you identified HA-32 by any exhibit number? /
DR. NELTE: HA-32?
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes.
DR. NELTE: I believe HA-32 was not yet submitted. This is in Document Book No. 2. Document HA-32 is an affidavit of the Benedictine Abbey, Maria Laach, Kohlenz. It was not yet submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please give me once more the numbers of these exhibits? You proceeded a little too fast for me to note then as you gave them, beginning with Exihibit HA-2?
MR. NELTE: HA-2 is in Document Book No. 1, Page 5. It is offered as Exhibit 37. Document HA-2a, in Document Book No. 1, can be found in the Annex. It is offered as Exhibit 38. I now offer as Exhibit 39 an affidavit of Generalarzt Juedecke, who speaks about the importance of the meetings of the consulting physicians. This Document HA-51 be can be found in Document Book No. 3 and is therefore not available to the Tribunal. As I said, this meaning Document Book No. 3 is available in the German text but a translation has not yet been completed. Therefore this document is being submitted with the reservation that it will later be supplemented by its English translation. I ask you to accept it as Exhibit 40. These the Document HA-1, Document Book No. 1, legal 1, as Exhibit 40. These are excerpts from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal dated 30 September and 1 October 1946.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is not necessary to offer that as an exhibit. The Tribunal will take judicial notice of it if you call attention to it in your Document Book. It need not have an exhibit number to be introduced as an exhibit.
DR. NELTE: It will have no exhibit number. The Tribunal will remember that they asked the Prosecution to put the printed reports of the meetings of the consulting physicians at my disposal. The Prosecution did that very kindly. In accordance with the suggestions of the Tribunal I asked to read, copy, and translate some parts of those printed reports. The translations of the copies of these reports have not yet been made and I should like to be able to submit these excerpts as evidence as soon as they come back to me.
It may be possible to do that when I present my short documentary evidence.
Finally, I should like to ask the High Tribunal to help me in the matter of my witnesses, Schmidt-Bruecken and Hartleben. Although the Marshal told no a few days age, and gave me a letter from which it would appear that these witnesses were here, I have not yet had an opportunity to speak to these witnesses. I was told that they are not here at all. After the conclusion of cross-examination I should like to hear these two witnesses in the courtroom and I should like to ask the Tribunal to find out on their part where these witnesses are.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Secretary General endeavor to ascertain the whereabouts of the two witnesses mentioned by counsel for the Defendant Handloser during the noon recess?
DR. NELTE: Thank you very much. And that brings me to the end of my examination of the Defendant Handloser.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Nelte, on February 12 some reference was made to a Dr. Haas of Laval. The Tribunal put a question to the defendant concerning the identity and official status of the doctor, to which some general answer was given by the defendant to the effect that the defendant thought that Haas was a civilian connected with some sort of civilian research institute. I believe that at that time you state to the Tribunal that before you conclude your case you would be able to give us further information, either through a witness or by affidavits, of the exact and precise nature, and it will be your purpose same time before you close your case to do that, I suppose?
DR. NELTE: Yes.
JUDGE SEBRING: During the course of the examination of this defendant the defendant has referred several times to the fact that in certain matters involving certain decisions, the defendant Karl Brandt successfully interceded for him and I am now directing this question to the witness: With whom did Karl Brandt intercede?
DR. NELTE: I don't believe the translation was quite correct. The translation was given as "raised objection." I think that the Judge wanted to know at what agency Prof. Brandt supported you?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That could only have been done at any agency which had any influence. I suppose that in Party affairs it would have been Bermann except for the Fuehrer as far as I can judge it, and if we were concerned with military affairs I think he would have intervened with the Fuehrer and spoken to him.
JUDGE SEBRING: Something was said about Dr. Handloser being urged, even commanded, to rid his organization of catholic nurses and to supplant them with nurses taken from the SS organization, and that Karl Brandt supported him in his view to retain the catholic nurses. With whom did Karl Brandt intercede in your support?
THE WITNESS: I may say that "SS Sisters" is not correct. It is "NS-National Socialist Sisters." It was a National Socialist Nursing Association which has really nothing to do with SS. I cannot say in this special case in what manner Brandt could give me support. During another examination I think a document was submitted where somebody confirmed that Brandt tried to intervene in favor of the catholic sisters. How he really did that, Prof. Brandt would have to state himself. I cannot give you any details about it. I only know its effects.
JUDGE SEBRING: What did you understand was the sphere of Dr. Karl Brandt's authority or influence, either in military medical matters or in Party medical matters?
THE WITNESS: We were then not concerned with any authority but it was rather a situation where Prof. Brandt had the possibility which he used to mention such anxieties and worries to the Fuehrer by way of conversation, in order to counter-balance to a certain extent the things which were tried from another side. We were not then concerned with any authority but, as I said before, it was a possibility to bring these matters to the attention of the Fuehrer and inform him about these things from our point of view.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you state again who had a conflicting point of view with that of yours in regard I to these matters—what persons or agencies either in the government or in the party?
A: This came to my knowledge through a liaison man between the Party Chancellory and the OKW. He was present at that time during discussions regarding these student companies and was with the OKW from whom he received these directives and whom he had to influence him, but he was the liaison man between the Party Chancellory and the OKW.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for the Defendant Handloser any further questions?
DR. NELTE: No, thank you, not at the moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may now cross-examine Defendant Handloser as a witness. Are there any questions on behalf of any defense counsel?
DEFENSE COUNSEL CROSS EXAMINATION OF DEFENDANT HANDLOSER
BY DR. FRITZ FLEMMING (Defense counsel for Defendant Joachim Mrugowsky):
Q: As the highest ranking representative of the Wehrmacht here, I should like to ask you what influence does any military assignment in military life have and what responsibility. However, at first I should like to ask you what the responsibility as regarding the superior and subordinate should mean? Is the following correct; the superior in personal and organizational matters and also in technical matters has the right to issue orders to the subordinate; is that correct?
A: I should like to refer you to the fact that I mentioned before that we have to differentiate between the military and technical superiors.
Q: What kind of superiors are you speaking of when you say technical superiors?
A: With regard to the technical superiors, there were two possibilities; either he was superior in every respect, as I read to you before, where he at the same time is the troop commander and at that time he becomes the superior in all matters. On the other hand, he may only be a technical superior and in that case he is only a superior in matters that refer to medical matters.
Q: Now, if any subordinate was assigned to a different agency, would the following be correct; the superior who was superior up to that tine remained as such, that is in a personal regard. The superior of the new agency, on the other hand, had the right to issue orders in technical matters?
A: Yes, that may well be correct.
Q: Could a situation arise in questions of military competency that a superior had the right to issue directives to a subordinate, who war not directly subordinate to him?
A: Yes, that happened too.
Q: "That influence did these relationships have — the superiors in relationship to responsibility; is it correct that whoever issued an order had to assume responsibility for whatever he ordered and that whoever carried out the order had to assume responsibility for what he was doing?
A: That is correct.
Q: Then, I should like to ask a question with reference to another sphere; for what reason was the participation of the Waffen SS necessary during the meeting of the consulting physicians?
A: The Waffen SS, ever since the beginning of the war, was participating with the Wehrmacht and committed to the Wehrmacht and in an ever increasing amount the entire services, including the medical service, had to establish contacts, of course, fighting shoulder to shoulder with other branches of the Wehrmacht and of course were living under the same conditions and were complying with the same directives. That is why it was necessary that even at the time, when there were only a few divisions committed, that these medical officers had contact with the entire leadership and received knowledge and reports about the principles, which were valid for the entire system and that is in particular reference to hygiene.
Q: Thank you, I have no further questions.
MR. McHANEY: I would like to have the record show that the questions, which have just been put to the witness, have been put by Dr. Flemming for the Defendant Mrugowsky.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY DR. HEINZ FRITZ (Defense Counsel for Defendant Gerhard Rose):
Q: Witness, did you know the Defendant Rose before the 8th of May, I945?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you at any time speak to the defendant Rose about any of the counts as charged by the prosecution before May 8th, 1945 or did you have any written or other communications directly or indirectly with him?
A: No.
Q: Did you at any time see the Defendant Rose participate in any conferences where the counts as charged in the indictment were discussed or reported?
A: No.
Q: Apart from whether the date or the contents of the conferences, mentioned in the Ding Diary of the 29th of December, 1941, are correct or not, I should like you to tell me whether the Defendant Rose at any time took part in a typhus meeting where you or Secretary of State Conti attended too?
A: No.
Q: Is the Defendant Rose, as far as you know; or rather was the Defendant Rose considered as a specialist for typhus vaccine?
A: No, Rose in the first instance was a troop hygienist.
Q: Did you ask the Defendant Rose to give you his counsel about the investigation of the typhus vaccine?
A: No.
Q: Is it correct to say, if I assume accordingly, that Rose was not consulted by you in typhus vaccine matters, because he was not a specialist in that field, although you, yourself, as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, would have had the possibility to ask him had you wanted to do so?
A: Yes, that is correct. Rose did not belong to the center, which I would have turned to in regard to these questions.
Q: And now another question; you were already speaking about the tasks of the consulting physicians with the armed forces. I should like you to give me some information about the special physicians and the consulting physicians with the Medical Inspectorate of the Armed Forces Branch. Were these consulting specialists of the Medical Inspectorate the superiors in any respect of the consulting physicians at any leading medical agency and by that I mean the army group physician the district command physicians, the air fleet physicians, etc.?
A: No, they were in no way superiors.
Q: According to the principles which were valid with the German Wehrmacht, would a consulting specialist or medical inspector ever be considered as responsible fur whatever another consulting physician in his sphere did or did not do?
A: No, that is out of the question.
Q: Could you give me the reasons why one desisted from making the consulting physicians with the Medical Inspectorates superiors of the consulting physicians at lower echelons?
A: That would have been quite impossible and would not have been correct. These consulting physicians had completely different ages. They were in different age groups. They were naturally assigned from different Parts of Germany and the principle was always followed that they be assigned to such army groups that were in the same home territory, so you have to consider that, and if you also consider the differences of rank it could be quite possible that an older and recognized physician, although he may have a lower rank from the beginning, that he would be confronted with a younger physician who started his career in the Army earlier and therefore had a higher rank. This in itself would have presented us with impossible situations which would have defeated the special purpose which we had in mind with these consulting physicians.
Q: What personal knowledge did you gain about the activity of the defendant Rose during the working meetings of the consulting physicians?
A: Mr. Rose held many lectures. These lectures were listened to with great interest and were finally concluded with the last lecture in the year of 1944 which was made during the last meeting, about the effects on the human body of —
Q: The defendant Rose during the entire war was the consulting hygienist and tropical medical expert with the Medical Inspectorate, or rather, with the chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. In this capacity he got into contact with you and members of your office. Would you please say something about the way he was considered materially and professionally by you and your agency?
A: Rose was considered as an extremely experienced specialist in his field, who combined great scientific knowledge with practical abilities. I knowledge was always considered to be very high, respected. His statements were always to the point and especially critical.
Q: Another question. Were the military authorities and tasks; that is to say, the executive authorities and the power of command of a consulting scientist who had become Generalarzt of the reserve, in compliance with such that one would have to expect with any man who holds such a rank; that is to say, an active Generalarzt?
A: At first, I have to say that the general position of all generals was the same. There was no difference at all. What you are really referring to are the authorities and the power of command which he had and in that connection I have to say that the consulting physicians had no power of command and no authority to issue orders. In addition, I have to say that if an active Generalarzt was a consulting physician the question of whether he was active or not active plays no part at all. It is the position which counts, and during the entire war there was no necessity to give any special power of command to these consulting physicians.
Q: Do you remember that during the autumn of 1944 the SD wanted to introduce proceedings against Professor Rose because of treason, since Professor Rose held lectures in the neutral countries abroad, Switzerland and Turkey, wherein he described the progress in detail which was made in Germany in the field of combat of typhus and malaria?
A: Yes, I remember that.
Q: Do you further know that professor Rose explained his attitude by saying that according to his opinion the results of medical research in was well as in peace should benefit the entire society, just in the same way as the individual physician was obliged to make no difference in his work between friend or foe?
A: Yes, I know that.
Q: Did you know what consequences Professor Rose had to expect resulting from his attitude, and did you cover him with the authority of your agency?
A: Yes, I did that in agreement with the medical chief of the Luftwaffe as far as I remember.
Q: What would Professor Rose have had to expect had he not been covered by you and his superiors at the air force?
A: He would have to expect that some political measures would be taken against him. Of course I cannot say what kind of measure.
Q: My last question. You were testifying earlier that you attended the hepatitis meeting in Breslau in the year of 1944. Was Professor Rose there?
A: No.
DR. FRITZ: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: I would like to advise Dr. Nelte, attorney for the defendant Handloser, that I have had some information just handed to me that the witnesses, Dr. Wolfgang Schmidt-Bruecken and Hans Hartleben, are not now available in Nuernberg. Counsel might inquire at the Defense Information Center and possibly obtain more information than I have available here.
The Tribunal will now recess until 1:30 o'clock this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)