1947-02-19, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please your Honors', the defendant Herta Wberhauser having been excused by the Tribunal this afternoon is absent.

THE PRESIDENT: The secretary General will note for the record that defendant Herta Oberhauser has been excused for the balance of the afternoon.

The Secretary General will file the physician's certificate.

The Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.

HANS HARTLENBEN — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)

BY DR. NELTE:

Q: Witness, will you please give your name.

A: Hans Hartlenben.

Q: When and where were you born?

A: On 25 January 1896 at Halle on Salle.

Q: Will you please tell the Tribunal about your career.

A: I attended a high school gymnasium in Halle on Saale, and Studied medicine in Freiburg, Breisgau and Halle. Then, in 1923 I entered the Army of the Reich. I was at various posts as medical officer, and I was trained in internal medicine. Then, I was in charge of the internal medical section in a post hospital in Stuttgart, and on the 1st of January 1937, I was transferred to the Army Medical Inspectorate. Originally I was a consultant there, a referent. Then, I was a group leader, Gruppenleiter, and on the 1st of October 1940, I became section chief of the organizational section of the Medical Inspectorate. In May 1943, I was sent to the front as corps physician with the 38th and later of the 57th Armored Corps. In July 1944, I became Army Physician for the Third Armored, and I was this until I was captured.

Q: And, where are you at the moment?

A: At the moment I am on the witness stand in Nurnberg, before this Tribunal.

Q: And, when you are not here?

A: When I am not here, I am in a prison camp at Garmisch.

Q: In a Prisoner of war camp?

A: Yes, a prisoner of war camp.

Q: I am interested in your activities as chief of the Organizational Section in the Army Medical Inspectorate. You said this was from the 1st of October 1940 until May 1943. Will you please describe your work as head of this section?

A: All organizational questions in the field of the medical service were taken care of in addition to basic questions, organizational questions in the wider sense, such as training of the non-commissioned officers and the men, seeing that the personnel in the hospitals and with the units in the field, the medical units it the field, and in addition had to obtain medical equipment during the war. Another group was in charge of development of medical equipment, medical instruments, and-so-forth. A third group was in charge of medical organizational measures of care as well as hospitals and the transport of patients at home. Finally, there was another group in charge of the question of expanding the medical service.

Q: Did the organizational questions include working out regulations for the new office of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services?

A: Yes.

Q: We would like to hear from you, who helped in creating this decree, and the instructions in 1942. We are interested in the interpretation of the instructions of 1942. Although, this was published or it must have reached many Wehrmacht units, we have no copy of it, and the Prosecution is very unhappy about this because the powers of defendant Handloser was to have been regulated by this regulation. I do not want to interrupt you by question. Will you please tell us about the decree of 1942; the instructions, how it came about, how it was written because the interpretation is of special importance.

A: The instructions had quite a long history which developed during the war. It came about that in the nature of the thing that the developments for the creation of such an office were urgent. At the beginning of the war the medical service of the army, and no doubt also of the other branches of the Wehrmacht, did not have any superfluity of men and materials. There was a considerable lack in important fields. To give an example — at the beginning of the war to a very large extent we had a lack of trained medical personnel, but also in the field of materials and medical equipment there was a great scarcity. To give an example again — an important group of medical instruments had not been set up at the beginning of the war and in some fields did not even exist, x-ray apparatus was lacking too, and ambulances were lacking and other things. No wonder then that at the beginning of the war the need for all of these things and for trained personnel rose suddenly. In the Army, which was the largest branch of the Wehrmacht, this was most urgent, but in the other branches of the Wehrmacht it was no doubt similar. Moreover raw materials gradually became more and more scarce, and industry was not as efficient in doing away with these scarcities in a relatively short time. There was not only the need of the branches of the Wehrmacht, but also the civilian needs for hospitals and doctors, which at the beginning of the war still had supplies, but as the war went on it needed a great deal of replacement of materials, and there were also difficulties in the medical supplies for the civilian population. These things made it necessary for a certain unity to be created.

Q: Excuse me, the war began on the 1st of September, 1939, and the position of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was created by the decree of the 28th of July, 1942. Will you please explain why it took so long, you are speaking of the scarcity in 1939?

A: At the beginning of the war, in the first years, these difficulties could be overcome by one measure or another and improvisation, but then gradually the longer the war lasted the more urgent the need became and the more necessary a certain unification was more necessary also because the branches of the Wehrmacht did not check upon one another and did not know whether one branch of the Wehrmacht, for example, had ordered more medical equipment than another.

Then there was a necessity for a central regulation in the branches of the Wehrmacht, but none of the branches of the Wehrmacht urged such a regulation. There were probably two reasons for this. One reason is probably that each branch of the Wehrmacht feared the creation of a central management of the medical service, that it's sphere of activities would be restricted where individual branches of the Wehrmacht had worked independent up until then and a closer check had to be expected. On the other hand each of the higher medical officers who would likely be considered for this position no doubt feared that he would not have enough authority within the High Com of the Wehrmacht. The OKW's set up was unfavorable for this. If it did not on behalf of the Fuehrer, the OKW was in no position to give definite orders to the various branches of the Wehrmacht, and there may have been the fear that a Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service would be very limited in his authority.

Then in the year 1942, the High Command of the Wehrmacht intervened itself, not that it had a very clear view of conditions in the Medical Service itself, but in view of a unification of other fields of work. The question was brought up for discussion and a long order from the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht made it possible, or rather ordered his Staff, the High Command of the Wehrmacht, to introduce unification wherever this was necessary, to simplify and coordinate forces. The Army Medical Inspector was discussed, and a Colonel Munch was in charged of the discussions from the OKW. He was killed in action later and the Army Medical Inspectorate put me charge of the preliminary discussions. Then in constant collaboration with Chief of the Staff of the Army Medical Inspectorate and the Army Medical Inspector personally, these discussions were carried on. In these preliminary discussions it was shown clearly that there were many objections from the branches of the Wehrmacht which had to be expected, and that not much more could be done at first than this coordination things in some form in which the State of affairs made it urgent.

This meant primarily coordination between the branches of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS on the one side and the civilian sector on the other side, as far as personnel or materials are co***. The Fuehrer decree was discussed and drafted and also the official instructions for the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, which was be issued for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.

The inclusion of Professor Brandt was also discussed. Colonel Munch apparently had instructions from his superiors on this question, and it was provided that Professor Brandt was to be called upon primarily to coordinate the two big sectors, the civilian sector on the one side and the military sector of the Wehrmacht, and the units which had been or were subordinate to the Wehrmacht on the other side. The negotiations dragged out for sometime. There were changes repeatedly, and finally in the late summer of 1942 the Fuehrer Decree on this coordination of the Medical Service and the Official Instructions for the new Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could be issued, with the note worthy characteristic that the Army Medical Inspector, who was already at the same time performing the duties of an army surgeon was now to take over the duties of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service as well. Second, the measure that a special chief of staff for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service to deal with Wehrmacht affairs was to be appointed. This was how these two regulations were issued.

Q: Now, the difficulties which you spoke of, the differences existing before the decree was issued, were they expressed in the formulation of this official instructions? Will you please explain that in connection with the tasks or functions of the Wehrmacht Medical Chief, according to the decree and the official instructions?

A: These difficulties, as I already said, already indicated in speaking of the preliminary discussions, were doubtless expressed in the official instructions. They were even expressed in the Fuehrer's Decree which contains a preamble which assumed that the coordination in the field of personnel and materials was the main thing. The Fuehrer's Decree also contained much limitation of important instructions concerning the Waffen SS. It said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in basic questions of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS could act only with the previous approval of the Medical Chief of the Waffen SS to give any orders. This in effect meant a previous agreement and one may add that in effect, as far as the other branches of the Wehrmacht are concerned, this was the situation from the very beginning. Generally it came only to orders issued by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service when there had been preliminary discussions on basic questions between those concerned. This whole solution was to a certain extent a compromise to a quite considerable extent and this compromise is expressed in the fact that the official instructions, which I helped to draw up, were relatively brief and were also in relatively general terms. First it stated that the holder of the office, that is, the future Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in Wehrmacht matters, was under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, which meant that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was under three authorities, under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht for Wehrmacht questions, under the Chief of the General Staff for questions concerning the field army, under the Commander of the Reserve who was Generalobersarzt Frohm, at that time, for questions concerning the reserve army. The official instructions in general form then said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was to direct and manage the Wehrmacht Medical Service in questions concerning the Wehrmacht branch jointly, and I may perhaps, if this is desired, go into the question of what such general questions were at that time.

Primarily, as has been repeatedly said, it is the question of coordinating materials and personnel, then the question of volunteer nurses, combating epidemics, and perhaps hospitals and similar questions, which saving of personnel and materials could be effected by the coordination, and in which simplification could be effected.

Q: Now, may I intervene here to speak of epidemic control, which is especially interesting here. Does that mean that research was under the Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Service — that was one of the duties?

A: As far as I remember, this question played no role at all at that time. The questions which needed coordination were personnel and materials I think I can recall that the question of research was not mentioned at all in these instructions. This is indicated also by the circumstance that we had recognized this coordination for quite different reasons and that these instructions were of quite a general nature and quite brief and did not go into details at all. To that extent this question was certainly not in the foreground, certainly not too much.

Q: Now, will you please say who or what was under the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?

A: Nothing really, aside from his own staff, which, of course, was under him. There was really no subordinate relationship mentioned in the instructions. It was only said that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in general joint questions was to act on behalf of the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht and give instructions to the Medical Chief of the medical branches of the Wehrmacht, not orders in the actual sense, but direct. There was a frequent distinction in German regulations between orders and instructions. This is a general word, a concrete term which was just in the case.

Q: Then the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service directed, as you said, in general the Medical Service concerning those tasks which were recognized as joint ones and which he had taken?

A: Yes.

Q: Secondly, he did not have any power to issue orders in this connection — he could merely issue instructions?

A: Yes.

Q: And you express this authority as the expression of a regulation based on agreement, preliminary agreement?

A: Yes, that is how it was in effect, that there was first agreement and this was necessary because in the strict sense there was not power to issue orders and the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service did not have an authority, any means to assert his authority and if we were to avoid that opposition to instructions or failure to follow instructions, it was more practically to sit down around a table before hand and agree on basic questions, so that after the instructions were issued, the work would begin immediately.

Q: Now, a concrete question. Was the defendant Handloser, as Chief the Wehrmacht Medical Service, in charge of the research institutes of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS?

A: Not according to the instructions, nothing was under him. The research institutes, I think that remained under the chief of the various branches of the Wehrmacht.

Q: Now, how could the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, in order to realize his duties, obtain any concrete basis for his position, for his office?

A: I have already described that in part. In order to be able to work, he needed material from the various branches of the Wehrmacht and the instructions provided that the branches of the Wehrmacht had the duty to give information in such general matters. According to the instructions this referred only to matters which affected all branches of the Wehrmacht not anything specifically belonging to the Luftwaffe or the Navy, which concerned this particular branch of the Wehrmacht, only things which affected all branches of the Wehrmacht in the same way.

Q: Now what is the relation to the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, you spoke of the basic restrictions in the decree of 28 July 1942; was this expressed more concretely later on?

A: The instructions, as far as I recall, contained a passage which I believe even restricted the wording of the Fuehrer's decree; the Fuehrer's decree speaks only of the Waffen SS, but I believe that these instructions contained a passage concerning the units of the Waffen SS under the Wehrmacht or something like that and the organizations attached to the Wehrmacht, such as the Reich Labor Service, or the OT or something like that. As far as I recall, there was such a passage in these instructions of 1942.

Q: Now, in order to make a clear picture of the relations between 1942 and September 1, 1944, the second decree concerning the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and the second official instructions; I will ask you to look at the decree and the instructions of 7 August, 1944, which I have already given to you. This is Document No. 227 and Exhibit No. 6 of the Prosecution. We will get a clear picture if you will discuss the individual parts of these instructions and tell us, as far as you can remember what the instructions of 1942 said, then it will be clearly shown how strong the position of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was in 1942 and how it was to be according to the decree of 1944. Please begin with Instruction 1.

A: First, I believe I may say in general —

MR. HARDY: May I request Dr. Nelte to tell how long it is going to take for this extended examination. We have had this same material put to the Defendants Brandt and Handloser and several other witnesses. It is repetitious and taking up the time of the Tribunal. I think we should shorten up the examination and make it as brief as possible.

THE PRESIDENT: I am sure that the counsel for the defendant Handloser does not want to waste any time and it seems to me the testimony of the witness is rather enlightening and without unduly extending this examination it may proceed.

Q: What does this power to issue orders mean?

A: Purely in the medical field; in the field of the medical service, not the power to intervene in military matters. That is clear as the medical service is limited to matters, which effect the various problems of the Wehrmacht jointly.

Q: May I ask you to repeat that official matters in the medical service were limited to those fields in which the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service was in charge, which effected all members of the Wehrmacht jointly. Please tell whether this question of joint tasks is also settled in this service regulation; that it does not contain general authority?

A: Under II, in this regulation it is said in much more detail what individual duties are considered joint or common duties. The first regulation spoke quite generally on this subject, for example, here under 2-A, there is quite a new formulation.

The authorities of all scientific medical institutes, academies and other medical institutions of the services of the Wehrmacht and of the Waffen SS are under 2-B and that was not in the first version, but I must say that this is only a compromise because these institutes were not subordinate. There is no talk of subordination here, it says under the Chief of the Medical Service, under the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, but it does not say who was under the Chief of the Medical Service, so apparently this question was intentionally avoided, otherwise it was customary to make these things clear in such regulations.

Q: In the Military Medical Service, it is a matter of course that where there is a position of subordination, this is clearly expressed

A: That was always clearly expressed in the service regulations, which I remember. In the regulations for the army, for example, the tasks of the Army Medical Inspectorate are mentioned in one point and it is immediately listed who is under him, the medical officers, the noncommissioned officers, the men, etc. I have seen that in that form in many such regulations and there is a special regulation about ranks where that is determined specifically.

Q: Now, may I say where it is not specifically said that there is a relationship of superior and subordinate, then there is no authority to issue orders in General?

A: That is my opinion.

Q: Now, one could have to assume that the specialized authorities issued orders where it applied to the institutes and academies, etc., and there it says again the Waffen SS; how about the Waffen SS according to this regulation?

A: Here it says at the bottom in this footnote that the Wehrmacht includes only the units under the Wehrmacht, the units of the Waffen SS.

Q: Then it remains the same?

A: Yes, in effect it remains the same. I do not know whether the Waffen SS, as far as its units were under the Wehrmacht, had any institute

Q: Will you please look at 11, 4-A, where it says that other duties of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht will be in the medical scientific field, uniform measures in the field of health guidance, research and the combatting of epidemics and all medical measures which require a uniform ruling among the Wehrmacht; was this ruling also in 1942?

A: No, it was not included in 1942 in this form?

Q: May one conclude that from the 1st of September 1944 the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service not only could combat epidemics but also in addition could intervene in the research work carried on by the individual branches of the Wehrmacht?

A: That seems quite improbable to me from the situation. For example if the Luftwaffe planned some research which affected only that branch of Wehrmacht...

Q: No, no, I mean only if these are things which affected the common interest; for example, hepatitis epidemica, which you know, or typhus. This research a question which can be uniformly regulated?

A: No, the uniform regulation of research would not serve the achievement of favorable results. In my opinion one can issue assignments on research and one can say we are not satisfied with the drug or that serum, or that which we have is not sufficient and suggest that these things be improvements but much cannot be done centrally. A research worker, who receives such a suggestion, will first have to try for himself the methods which he will to come to a result. Perhaps he will take two or three wrong paths, which not lead to the goal. In my opinion this example shows even to a layman that research cannot be bridled in this form but must have a certain freedom.

Q: Will you please tell us under the rest of the regulations, especially under III, what differences there are as against the regulations of 1942?

A: No. 1 was contained in 1942 according to the same sense and perhaps under the same wording. No. 2 is new, completely new. No. 3 was contain in part in a similar form in the regulation of 1942, regarding the restriction power of inspection. I believe that this was expressed in a similar form with the same restriction in 1942, but it is quite new that the Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Service is to have the authority to issue orders on the spot in the field of medical service if these are necessary for the *** emergency and do not disagree with fundamental orders of the branch of the Wehrmacht, that is also any power to issue orders on the spot. And this right of inspection I must say that in my opinion it is very limited cause one must first ask the branches of the Wehrmacht if he can go there, He had no power to issue orders, no power of supervision and such inspection trips could only have been for the purpose of personal observation and, no doubt, this was to be adjusted by this new sentence, which I have quoted an which in itself contains two such strong limitations which I would not have enjoyed as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service inspecting a branch of the Wehrmacht.

Q: Now if I ask you how does the regulation of 1944 in the decisive points differ from the regulation of 1942, please tell me that in a few words. Sum it up.

A: The essential parts are a more detailed description of the fields of work, a limited power to issue orders, for the first regulation spoke only of instructions; a certain influence on the appointments to physicians, Generalarzt, and a certain power to issue orders on the spot during inspection in case of emergency. Those are the essential points, in my opinion.

Q: Now concerning research I must ask the question, in what way was the medical service of the Waffen SS after 1942 and after 1944 under the chief of the Wehrmacht medical service?

A: It was not under him. I cannot see any subordination from this regulation and not only do I not remember it from 1942, but it did not exist, as it says he could not give instructions concerning the branches of the Wehrmacht, concerning the units of the Waffen SS under the Wehrmacht. There was no subordination. He could merely issue instructions. There were similar relation as between the high command of the Wehrmacht and branches of the Wehrmacht. That must have been more or less coordinated. The chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht could not give any orders to the Wehrmacht branches. They were not under him.

Q: I merely want to make that clear. Now the second question which I want to ask you is this: Were the research institutes of the SS and the Waffen SS in 1942 under him, or was there any power to issue instructions, and was there power to issue technical orders in 1944?

A: In 1942, as far as I remember the regulation of 1942, I do not believe there was any power to issue instructions to institutes of the Waffen SS, and in the regulation of 1944 it depends on whether they were institutes with the units of the Waffen SS under the Wehrmacht.

Otherwise the Waffen SS was not under him and the institutes of the Waffen SS could not be under him, but whether these units of the Waffen SS had such institutes, I cannot say from my own knowledge.

Q: Was there a general supervisory right of the chief of the Wehrmacht medical service?

A: No.

Q: Is the supervisory right connected with any other powers?

A: Yes, generally with the disciplinary authority. Supervision remained with the branches of the Wehrmacht themselves, the chiefs of the medical service in this case.

Q: Then I may conclude the questions on this subject, and, Mr. President I have an affidavit from this witness. I have submitted it as Exhibit 20, Document HA 40, in Document Book 2, Page 60. I do not want to repeat this affidavit here. It has already been read in part. I merely want to ask you whether the statements which you made there about the tasks of the Army Mountain Medical School and the Mountain Physiological Institute in St. Johann, whether you acknowledge them as right here under oath.

A: Yes.

Q: Not to repeat the examination of this witness on consulting physicians, I show the witness Hartleben HA 18 Exhibit 8, Document Book 1, Page 32, and I ask you, witness, have you read this statement of Professor Handloser?

A: I have read the whole document book, but I do not know from the number which one it is.

Q: It says "The institution of consulting physicians."

A: Yes. Yes, I read that one.

Q: Can you confirm the contents of this affidavit?

A: Yes, fully.

Q: And finally I have given you Document HA 2, Exhibit 37, Document Book 1, Page 5 and following and ask you to read it, the statements about necessity and purpose of the meetings of the consulting specialists, that is, the meetings of the consulting specialists.

Have you read this statement?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you confirm the correctness of these statements from your own knowledge?

A: I can confirm it from my own knowledge.

Q: Then in conclusion I should only like to ask you, what is your opinion of Professor Handloser, and in particular, his attitude on medical ethics?

A: In my affidavit of the 13th of December, which has just been mentioned, I spoke on this question and I pointed out that Professor Handloser was always primarily interested in the outstanding medical achievement and conduct of his medical officers. Perhaps I may underline this by saying that, for example, he was sharply opposed to having the rank names of the medical officers changed. The word "physician", "Arzt" is always included in the name in the German army, Stabsarzt, Generalarzt. Efforts were made to change these names, to say "Captain" instead of "Stabsarzt" or "Lt. Colonel" instead of "Oberfeldarzt." He always opposed such efforts because he was of the opinion that our title was to show primarily our capacity as a doctor. I have seldom had a superior who was so painfully conscientious in all medical questions; none was more interested in those things and who, as a superior, weighed his decisions so carefully.

I have known Professor Handloser for thirteen or fourteen years. I was in close contact with him for years, and I believe that I am in a position to pass judgment on his personality. I can only say that in view of his exemplary medical attitude, it is my firm conviction that any medically ethically inadmissible experiments could not have been known to him. He would have endangered the whole aim of his life as a physician, and his whole attitude would have had to be changed suddenly. But that does not happen at his age. Therefore I believe that if he had learned of such things he would have objected as far as he had the opportunity.

DR. NELTE: I thank you. I have no further questions to this witness.

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Q: Witness, were the army regulations of the German army published in printed form prior to 1939?

A: I do not quite understand what regulations you mean. If I might ask you to explain a little?

Q: There are certain regulations published, I assume, or issued by the proper authority of the government for every army. In the States they are called the Army Regulations. I do not know what they are called in Germany, but in the United States they ere printed in a book form, Army Regulations, general laws governing the members of the Armed Forces of the Army. Was there anything similar to that printed in Germany for the benefit and instruction of the German Army?

A: Yes, the regulations of the German army existed — always existed in a printed form, or at least mimeographed form, and were not published by the government, but they were issued by the high command, that is, the War Minis try, originally; later, by the high command of the Wehrmacht for the Wehrmacht and by the high command of the army for the army and they were signed in general, according to the significance, usually by the commander in chief of the branch of the Wehrmacht, but in this case by the commander in chief of the army.

Q: What were these regulations called? What was the title of them?

A: The titles varied. There were a large number of regulations. Some of them were still being worked on. For example -

Q: Well, were these regulations never assembled and printed in one volume?

A: They were too extensive for that. There were many hundreds of regulations, but they were in a special folder with an index giving the titles of the various regulations.

Q: What was the name, the generic group name, of these regulations?

A: There was no general title. They were Army Service Regulations, Heeres Vorschriften, HDV, Number so and so. Then there was the Title giving the contents of these specific regulations, rank and superior relationships in the army, and disciplinary penalties. There was a medical war regulation or instruction book for non-commissioned officers and so forth.

Q: Do you know of any one printed volume in which these things were all assembled and bound together?

A: No. As far as I know, there is no such book.

Q: As to the authority of the Chiefs of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, under the order of 1942, would he have authority to order the senior surgeon medical officer of a regiment or of a brigade to make a report to him upon the health conditions of that organization?

A: That would have been much too long. The Chief of the Medical Wehrmacht Service, in this case if he wanted to know something about a specific regiment, would presumably have turned to the medical chief of that branch of the Wehrmacht and asked him for the necessary information He was really in no position to do so. How was not really the superior of this regimental doctor in this case.

Q: What orders could he have issued? You said he could have issued some orders to some administrative branch. Do you mean infantry, artillery, or tank corps?

A: A medical officer could not give orders to troops at all. He could only give orders in his specialized field, and that is the field of medicine. He could issue directives on the most favorable treatment of pneumonia, but he could not give the troops any direct orders. Only the military commanders could do that. If he had a wish, in the medical respect, effecting the troops, he had to ask for an order through the troop commander.

He would have to ask the chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht, or as army medical inspector, he would have to ask the Commander of the Reserve Army of Germany. He would issue the order. That is the reason the service regulations always say he is the advisor of his commander in questions of the medical service.

Q: The Chief could issue, I understand, a directive that hereafter pneumonia would be treated in a certain way, ro that a certain variety of splint should be attached to cure a broken leg. That would be a directive, would it?

A: Instructions were not issued in this connection. Advise was given. No certain method of treatment was prescribed for the doctor. The main thing was that no mistake was made; whether one doctor preferred one drug and another doctor preferred another drug, was up to the doctor.

Q: It would be a recommendation, not a direction? Is that correct?

A: A recommendation, advise, yes.

Q: What would be the effect of such a recommendation upon the officers to whom it was directed? They would use their own judgment in applying it or would they follow it?

A: You mean the medical officers?

Q: Yes.

A: The medical officers knew that what the higher medical officers told them in this respect was the fruit of medical and scientific experience of the latest years. Therefore, they welcomed such directive or advise, and generally, no doubt, followed it. They were not so limited. If I think about pneumonia, for example, various modern methods of treatment were reported in this booklet and compared with one another. The medical officer had the guarantee that he was advised according to the best medical knowledge.

Q: A directive, then, could be disregarded by a medical officer of a regiment, brigade or division, if in his judgment, the directive was not correct, was not sound in principle?

A: He had that liberty. In that case he probably would have consulted the others.

Q: Did the medical director have authority to direct or order, whatever it should be called, regimental surgeons to make reports to him at monthly intervals about the health of their commands?

A: There was no special instruction needed for this in the medical service. There was quite a definite report system. Every month a report was made by every unit about the state of health. This was done automatically.

Q: Who required that those reports be made? Was that in these army regulations we mentioned?

A: I believe that was set down in the regulations, but it is possible that there were individual orders. No, I just remember the regulations. There was a regulation about reports for the army which settled this question in detail.

Q: If the Chief of the Service desired, quickly, a certain report upon a certain division, could he send an order to the Chief Surgeon of that division to report to him immediately upon certain health conditions in that division?

A: The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?

Q: Yes.

A: No. He could not. It would have been easier for him to approach the medical chief of the branch of the Wehrmacht concerned. He would no doubt have had better connections. The basic principles in such things were, as far as I saw it, that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service when he asked for information, did not go directly to subordinate places, but to the superior of the medical officer from whom he wanted information.

Q: You mean the military superior, not another medical officer, do you not?

A: No. I am afraid we have misunderstood each other. I understood the question to be this: If the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service wanted to have information, to whom would he address himself, directly to the person from whom he wanted information or through channels?

Q: You understood me correctly, but I do not understand you, I think.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)