1947-02-24, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please Your Honors, the defendant Rudolf Brandt has returned to court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the return of Rudolf Brandt.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED

BY DR. PRIBILLA (Defense Counsel for the Defendant Rostock):

Q: Witness, you told us in what form the reports of the various agencies which were used in the card index were formulated. You also said that the reports of the Reich Office for Economic Expansion came on individual pieces of paper and were a little more explicit. In what form were the other reports received, especially these of the Reich Research Council and the branches of the Wehrmacht? Did they show the technical means used in carrying out the experiments?

A: No. As I have already said, they contained only the indication of the name of the research worker, the subject of research, sometimes the clinic at which the work was done, the number of the assignment, the priority and value of the assignment. The manner of execution of the research assignment was not mentioned.

Q: Did any reports say that human experiments were conducted? Did any reports say that work was done on concentration camps or that work was done on concentration camp inmates?

A: No. In no single case was the name of any concentration camp mentioned or any concentration camp inmate mentioned.

Q: You have already described the purpose of the research card index. Was the purpose which Professor Rostock assigned to this card index realized in any way?

A: The research card index was established in the summer of 1944 by Professor Rostock. At this time Professor Rostock wanted to orient himself on the research assignments. It was not possible in any way, on the basis of this file, to increase research. From one's desk, even if one know what research assignments were being carried out at the time, one could no longer see where such research assignments were still being carried out.

As a result of the increasing air raids and the destruction of institutes, the execution of the research work by clinics and institutions, to a large extent, interferred with. University professors repeatedly told us that they could work only under the most primitive conditions and try to carry out at least part of their work—their research. We, ourselves could understand these difficulties caused by the war very well from our own work at the clinic. It would, therefore, have been completely useless to try to interfere with individual research problems at that time. The aim. of establishing the research card index, the aim that Professor Rostock had in mind, was originally only for general information for himself and particularly to give him insight into where basic research was being conducted and where specialized research was being conducted. This basic research, which was especially important to Professor Rostock, was, as I have already said, at a distinct disadvantage as against specialized research. In any case, Professor Rostock did not interfere with any individual research problem.

Q: Now, this morning the prosecution submitted a document. This shows that on the 26th of August, 1944, there was a meeting at which a number of agencies were represented. Did you, as Professor Rostock's assistant, participate in this meeting?

A: Yes, there was a meeting at Bielitz which I remember. As far as I can remember, there were present from the Reich Research Council, Professor Sauerbruch and Professor Schreiber, and the heads of the Wehrmachtthe chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.

Q: At this meeting there was discussed what research was important in Germany and vital in these last months of the war. Was this done in the form that the individual institutes, research workers and subjects for research were discussed, or were certain fields of research of an extensive nature designated as important or less important or unimportant?

A: No, individual research assignments were not discussed. The heads of the individual research departments or their representatives, An a report of about ten minutes, gave a general survey of the most important groups of research being done by them.

As far as I recall, at the end Professor Rostock summed up and said that a certain number of larger subjects were to be considered especially important.

Q: Did Professor Rostock play a decisive role in this meeting, or was it a meeting of equals?

A: No, as I said, the head of each individual research department told what points were especially important in his field. Professor Rostock spoke primarily about the work in the civilian sector and told what he considered particularly important. As far as I recall, there was an invitation to the Reich Physicians' Leader who could have represented the civilian sector, but Dr. Conti did not appear.

Q: Among the fields for which Professor Rostock spoke and which he considered especially important was there included the field of chemical warfare agents, or did you have the impression that someone else spoke in favor of this field?

A: I cannot say that anyone spoke especially about chemical warfare agents, but it is possible that in Professor Rostock's summing up the. question of chemical warfare agents was designated as urgent.

Q: But whether he himself had spoken about it before hand primarily what do you think about that?

A: I consider that quite unlikely. That was not in Professor Rostock's sphere of work. None of us assistants ever was given anything to work on in this respect by Professor Rostock.

Q: It has been said here during the trial that the field of defense against chemical warfare agents was worked on by Professor Brandt. Does that correspond to your impression of the facts?

A: Yes, we know that defense against chemical warfare agents was worked on by Professor Brandt.

Q: Did reports on chemical warfare sent to Professor Brandt's office did they afterwards come to the attention of Rostock's agency?

A: No, no one in our office had anything to do with this field.

Q: After this meeting of the 26th of August a list was drawn up, signed by Professor Rostock.

This list was drawn up about three weeks to the report. Now in this list, the fields considered important are listed on the right, and on the left are given the institutes in which work was being done in these fields. Did you prepare this list?

A: I cannot remember any such list. I would have to see it.

Q: Here we are interested only in determining whether the individual fields were discussed at the meeting itself or whether this list was ***** up afterwards, and the fields designated as important were taken out and the card index entries were used. You yourself cannot remember having prepared the list?

A: No, I did not prepare this list.

Q: Is it possible that you were absent at that time and that another assistant or a secretary drew up the list?

A: That is possible. In any case, I myself did not prepare the list I would be grateful if I might see the original. Perhaps I can tell from some indication who prepared the list.

DR. PRIBILLA: Mr. President, I do not know whether it is important enough or if the Court would like to show the witness the original so that he can examine it.

THE PRESIDENT: If the original is available it may be shown to the witness.

(Witness is shown the original document.)

BY DR. PRIBILLA:

Q: Witness, please look at the original and tell us whether you can say for certain who prepared this list.

A: No, I cannot see anything new from this. I see only from the subjects which are listed that they came from these groups which were designated as "urgent" or as "essential."

Q: An these notes at the bottom of the first page — do they refer to things in your office, or do you have the impression that they were added later by the Reich Research Council to whom this list was sent?

A: They are apparently some notes put on by the office which receives the letter.

Q: Do you know Circular No. 5?

A: No. We did not issue any circulars on research matters.

Q: Thank you. Will you please return the original?

(Document is returned.)

Witness, do you know what position Professor Rostock had in connection with the Reich Research Council?

A: No, I do not know that exactly. I heard from Professor Rostock once, in conversation, I believe it was the end of 1944, that he became deputy in the board of directors of the Reich Research Council.

Q: Could Professor Rostock, in the Reich Research Council, have any responsible activity in issuing research assignments which the Reich Research Council issued?

A: I am not informed in detail about authority within the Reich Research Council. I can only speak of the work under Professor Rostock, I never saw any letter in which he made any decisions for the Reich Research Council. On the other hand, I remember a letter from Professor Rostock to the Reich Research Council in which he made suggestions for working on subjects in the field of tissue cultures, which interested Professor Rostock particularly. If Professor Rostock had himself had the opportunity of issue research assignments for the Reich Research Council, he would have been already to do so directly.

Q: Yes, I understand. Witness, I shall show you a chart, which Document 1, Exhibit 1, in the Rostock case. It shows the activity of Professor Rostock. Can you confirm, from your own knowledge, whether that is an approximately correct distribution of his activity?

A: This concerns the years 1939 to 1945. I can speak only of the time when I worked with Professor Rostock, from December 1943 until Professor Rostock moved to Liebenstein, at the end of February or beginning of March 1945. For this time the distribution shown by this chart is correct. During the time when Professor Rostock was at Beelitz a considerable part of his activity was always his work for the clinic and his scientific work. I can testify about this because we assistants were always used by him in his scientific work.

Q: Witness, what activity did Professor Rostock always consider him most important—his main activity?

A: Professor Rostock was Generalarzt of the reserve but he did any value on being called Generalarzt. In the office, not only the assistant but everyone generally, called him Professor. He always placed the greatest value on his position as a university professor.

Q: What was the relationship of Professor Rostock to his associates and his patients?

A: The basic characteristic of Professor Rostock is a very extensive general respect for other persons. As assistants of the head of our clinic.

A: Stabsarzt and a Genaralarzt, we always were especially gratified he had this respect for our, I might say, civilian personality, and always emphasized it. The notes which he put on the letters did not take the for of orders as "take care of this" but they usually said "please see whether there is a research assignment." And he did not say "tomorrow morning you will drive with me to Berlin" but he said "Mr. Christensen, would you good enough to go to Berlin with me tomorrow morning?" Those are, perhaps only external matters which hardly deserve to be mentioned, but they do characterize Professor Rostock. He was not merely a military superior — he emphasized the human contacts. From the work in the clinic I know the patients' attitude toward Professor Rostock. He was not the superior scientist and big clinic chief who just rushed past the patients, but they themselves emphasized how pleasant it was that he was not only a doctor and a good surgeon but was interested in them as human beings. Especially in the time of frequent air raids on Berlin, we saw Professor Rostock's care for his patients. Night after night he slept at the clinic in order to direct the removal of the patients to the air raid shelters if there was an alarm, and he also took charge when fires broke out in the clinic, as frequently happened.

Q: He took charge of putting the fires out, you mean?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you know Professor Rostock personally through your work — did you know him very well?

A: Yes, of course we had personal contacts with Professor Rostock.

Q: Then at the end will you please tell me what your impression of him as a doctor and a human being, whether you consider it possible, in view of your knowledge of his personality, and his work, that he had any connection with criminal experiments on human beings?

A: I knew Professor Rostock only as an outstanding scientist and a good doctor. I knew him personally as a decent, clean, character. I can imagine Professor Rostock having any connection with anything of a criminal nature. Whoever knows Professor Rostock personally and knows how humane his feelings were, above all how soft-hearted he is, cannot imagine that he would take any such spiritual burden upon himself.

Q: Thank you. I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination of this witness as far as any defense counsel are concerned?

(No response.)

There being none the prosecution may examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Witness, you are familiar with the activities of Professor Rostock in his capacity as Chief of the Office of Medical Science and Research under the defendant Brandt; what is the basic purpose of this Office of Medical Science and Research?

A: As I said before one cannot give any clearly defined set of duties. What seemed to me essential when I worked under Professor Rostock was the Medical Advisory physician in various practical questions in medical science and research.

Q: Then you are not of the opinion that this office was set up to coordinate scientific research?

A: According to what professor Rostock told us assistants at the beginning, he wanted to coordinate the various research interests, as I said before. The fact that Professor Rostock began the work so late in effect did not permit this to be done.

Q: Well, now, you have stated the purpose of this card index file was to orient Professor Rostock in the various research assignments, such orientation being necessary I presume in order that he could more capably coordinate the various research assignments; is that true?

A: Yes, Professor Rostock wanted to get insight into the work going on -

THE PRESIDENT: The transmission system is not working. We will be suspended for a moment until it is in order.

(Delay)

Proceed.

Q: Now, my question, witness, was the purpose of this card index file so that Rostock could more capably coordinate these research problems, is that true?

A: Yes. This card index was set up in the summer of 1944, because Professor Rostock was confronted with various questions connected with research assignments.

For example, University Professors approached him and asked him for support in maintaining their own research work and on the basis of this card index he was able to see whether he could consider this work especially important, or whether similar work was net being done somewhere else.

Q: So then it was his job to avoid duplication of scientific work, wasn't it?

A: Yes, I assume that originally avoiding duplication was planned, but on the other hand I know from what Professor Rostock told us that he was completely opposed to interference in the work of a research worker. He told us assistants repeatedly that the supreme principle always had to be that any research work could be carried out freely. I do not believe, therefore, that he had the intention of interfering in anyway in the research work being carried on, but he told us and as we had the impression, he rather had the intention of preserving as much as possible of the research being conducted, especially basic research in the civilian sector, in which he was especially interested, and which he considered especially important as a University Professor.

Q: Well, now naturally his task was to avoid duplication of scientific work in the coordination of his medical research problems, then this was within the sphere of the Fuehrer's Decree, which gave Karl Brandt the authority to establish the office of Science and Medical Research, wasn't it?

A: Yes. I do not know how the assignment read which was given to Professor Rostock. I can only say what we could know from our practical work as assistants.

Q: Well, now, you have stated on direct examination that these index files contained some 650 assignments; if it merely contained the data that would not fully describe how this research work was being carried out, how could. Rostock avoid duplication of scientific work without knowing precisely what the particular scientist was doing?

A: That shows that Professor Restock, by no means intended to intervene in such cases of duplication. He merely wanted to get orientation on the research work being conducted to be more or less informed on what was being done by the individual people. The subject given does show whether in the field of war research, for example, 50 or only 5 people are workings

Q: Well, would you turn to that document you have in front of you, which is NO 692, which has been offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No.457. The list you have in front of you, Witness, this particular list, the subject:

The list of Medical Institutes working on Problems of Research which were Designated as Urgent by the Discussion on Research on 26 August 1944 in Belitz.

The last sentence in parenthesis states:

Summary in connection with the 650 Orders on Research Submitted to Us.

Does that convey that the purpose of Dr. Rostock requesting reports on those various assignments was merely for orientation purposes?

A: Originally Professor Rostock had the card index set up only for his information. I can remember very well how that happened, a very simple practical incident. Later more and more restrictions were necessary, and in this way there were discussions between the heads of the individual research Departments and Professor Rostock, using the card index which he already had.

Q: Now, as I understand it there were 18 fields of research of the utmost importance, that is considered urgent, and Professor Rostock had received 650 orders for research in order to determine their urgency, and of these 650 orders he only selected as urgent those which fell into any one of the particular 18 different fields. This document lists the institutions, the work they are doing and sets up priority ratings; now the Reich Research Council has received this list; what did the recipient do with it, what was the purpose of it — did they just read it and say "interesting?"

A: No, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think so, but I do not know for what purpose the Reich Research Council received this list. I do not know what connection the Reich Research Council had with the Institutions listed here whether they were directly under its orders or whether it was merely to be informed.

I do not know whether such a list was not sent to each participant in the discussion, including the Reich Research Council.

Q: Then the priority rating set up here could not be filed in your opinion, that is Professor Rostock here has selected 45 different assignments out of 650 as urgent to have priority; do you mean to tell me that the list signed by Professor Rostock has no effect whatsoever upon the recipient? He could very well have omitted a very important assignment and the recipient would never have had knowledge of the assignment, hence this very important assignment on behalf of another institute wouldn't receive the priority orders, and therefore wouldn't get the personnel necessary, isn't that possible?

A: The original of the subjects stated there is not to be understood to mean that Professor Rostock on the basis of the card index set up the subjects, they are the fields of work which at a joint discussion of the heads of all research organizations were designated as urgent. Professor Rostock did not assign a priority to the individual fields of work. At this discussion the individual heads of the Research Groups designated individual fields as urgent. Then at the end Professor Rostock summed it up and said that the following 18 or 20 points of research are considered especially urgent today. This research had all been going on for sometime, and it was merely to ascertain what was to be continued to be considered essential. I do not know whether on the basis of this list anything was done, any steps were taken. It was fully planned that the institutions listed here were to got special protection and were not to suffer from the intended closing of research institutes which had been planned for the civilian sector.

Q: Now, Doctor, did you ever receive reports on special research assignments, that is during the time you were in Rostock's office?

A: I mentioned the Reich office for Economic Extension. This office dealt with work in the pharmaceutical field. I know only the part of the work which effected medical matters. It had to be decide from the point of view of production, which drugs and which medical instruments were to be continued to be produced. The Reichs Office then approved Professor Rostock, I was present at the first discussion where the request was personally presented to Professor Rostock and he was asked to comment on it from the medical point of view, since they could do so only from the point of view of production. For this Reichs Office for Economy Extension, which issued the assignments essential to the pharmaceutical industries, we repeatedly received reports on the research already done as to whether there were any immediate results or if no progress had been made in that field for some time.

These reports were given so that we could see and advise whether it was important to continue this work. As far as I know there was no doctor in the Reichs Office for Economic Extension. Of the other research assignments, we received notices only occasionally—that is in detail. For example, if Professor Rostock was particularly interested in these things, I remember for example work on the seeing prothesis, current research on penicillin, etc. and in these fields to be informed what had been done in these matters. For example, I would say in the case of seeing prothesis, that we had no idea of what that meant and it was the same with Professor Rostock. He asked the institute in Freiburg on the question which was being worked on and he asked what it meant, then we received information on it.

Q: By that you mean Professor Rostock could also have asked the institute at Strassburg under Professor Haagen or Hirt, could he not in his position as chief of the Reich Medical Research Office at the Reichs Chancellery.

A: Yes, of course Professor Rostock could have asked the Institute in Strassburg too. I don't believe he did so because it was not in his field and it did not interest him.

Q: I have just a few more questions to put to you and if you are brief, we can finish today.

Could you examine Top Military Secret Mail?

A: Yes.

Q: Could all of the rest of the assistants in Rostock's office and you say there were five, could they examine Top Military Secret Mail?

A: Yes, depending on what field of work it was. I said before that all members of the office including the secretary worked on all the secret matters, as well as the rest of the mail. As far as they were civilians, they had to sign some sort of a pledge of complete secrecy in the customary way. We medical officers were bound through duty to keep secrecy, nevertheless we signed this paper again.

Q: Were these matters of a Top Secret nature, which had been sent to Rostock, available to anyone of his assistants; is that true?

A: Yes, as far as it concerned the field of this particular person and it was given to him to work on.

Q: Was the Fuehrer order concerning secrecy; was it displayed in Rostock's office on the bulletin board or some such place?

A: No, not in our office, but I know from my time in other military service that it was posted there.

Q: Witness, were you a member of the Nazi party?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: When did you join?

A: I joined in 1933.

Q: Have you been through denazification proceedings yet?

A: Yes, I have not been before a committee yet, but I turned in my questionnaire sometime ago.

Q: Were you a member of any other party organizations, such as the SS, the SA, National Physician's Union or any such thing as that?

A: No, I did not belong to any single organization.

Q: I have no further questions, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness? If not, the witness will be excused.

The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned at 1625 hours.)