1947-02-25, #3: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the witness may proceed.

BY DR. MARX:

OSKAR SCHROEDER — DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY DR. MARX:

Q: Witness, previously we stopped at the question — what was your further career with the beginning of the war?

A: For almost 10 years I had already been at the Ministry and as a result of this it was necessary that once again I should be used in some other agency. This was postponed by the reconstruction work which had been done in the previous years; but the beginning of the war offered us the opportunity... gave me the opportunity to take over the position of a fleet medical officer and with the beginning of the year 1940 I became physician with Air Fleet No. 2, under Field Marshal Kesselring.

Q: Witness, what was your activity now with Air Fleet 2?

A: The first year of the war this air fleet was used in the west and afterwards it was used in the cast for a short period of time; then from 1 December 1941 on, it was used in Italy, Africa and Sicily. I remained in this position until the 31st of December 1943.

Q: Witness, would you now tell the Tribunal about the duties of an Air Fleet Physician.

A: The Air Force Physician is the chief medical officer of the Air Fleet. He is the consultant of the Chief of the Fleets in all questions which concern medical matters. The Fleet physician directs the use of the medical units and gives the corresponding instructions to the subordinate air district units, unit physicians, and so on. Furthermore, he provides replacements for the injured persons and that played a major part in the work of those physicians in the war because the air transports were of quite a special importance in cases where large distances and territories were involved.

It further was the duty of the air fleet physician to be informed about the treatment of the patients and the status of the patients in the hospitals.

Q: Were you always or for the most part with your agency as air fleet physician, or did you frequently have to travel outside of this office?

A: On many occasions I was outside of the agency, above all during the time when we were active in the Mediterranean area, in Greece, Crete, Italy, Sicily and Africa, when these territories belonged to our theater of operations. I was traveling around constantly, on many occasions by car or by airplane, and I inspected hospitals and I also obtained detailed information about the methods of treatment with regard to the patients, and also with the hospitals which had been provisionally established; I also consulted in these fields because I had gained particular experience. Then I also took care of the nursing system and especially in my field of competence nurses were also used to a great extent in medical establishments, even close to he front line, because I maintained the point of view that care by nurses could never be replaced by care by men.

Q: Now what was the character of your activity as Air Fleet physician?

A: It was strictly an activity which was connected with inspections. It was an activity which regulated the working together — which supervised the working together of all these subordinate agencies. I placed emphasis on the fact that in my agency the administrative part of the work was to be limited as far as possible. I left those things to the air district physicians and similar subordinate agencies. As Air Fleet Physician I had to be mobile — I had to be constantly on the move, in order to inspect and to supervise the care of the wounded and the supplies which were needed.

Q: Witness, when did you become Medical Chief of the Luftwaffe?

A: That was on 1 January 1944. I was promoted to Generaloberstabsarzt; it was then I became Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. In the first month of my activity I effected certain changes in our organization with the corresponding agencies of the Ministry so that afterwards I was in charge of the agency with the title Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. There are constantly mistakes being made in the trial hero because my predecessor was called Chief of the Medical Service and I was described as Inspector. This is connected with the change but the title Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe indicates my position more correctly than it could be done with the title of Inspector.

Q: Witness, will you now describe your field of tasks to the Tribunal as Medical Chief?

A: My field of tasks was very extensive. First of all I will have to go back to the situation as it existed in the year 1944 with regard to my office; at that time the agencies at home could not work anymore, in peace in their respective offices but for air-raid precautions they had in many cases been transferred to provisional stations. The daily work was continually interrupted by air raid attacks and air raid alarms; planned meetings or conferences were interrupted by air attacks and air raid alarms, so that it became extraordinarily difficult during that period of time to work together at all.

Caused by this state of emergency for me the primary task was the use of medical units as far as this was hampered by the central agency. In this case it was a question of the assignment of field hospitals and surgical units, which were usually field hospitals, also their medical aircraft units, which consisted of aircraft which had been converted to transport wounded soldiers; the dental stations, examination places, and so forth.

During that period of time we were confronted by these demands constantly, and the reasons for these demands were for the most part that the units of the agency which had made the demand had been destroyed by air attacks and other measures of the War. The replacements which we could furnish centrally could only be carried out if other units were withdrawn at some other place, and I believe that anyone who is acquainted with these matters can fully imagine what an amount of unpredictable work was caused everyday by these tasks which confronted us anew daily. Also it frequently required me to make trips at a very short notice, in order to clarify much questions right at the problem location.

Closely with these transfers of units was the work which had to be done in personnel questions. It was the use of medical officers, nurses and other medical personnel. In the year 1944 we felt the effect above all that we had to dismiss personnel to a very large extent. I alone had to furnished 21,000 men, medical non-commissioned officers, and men to other units. I furnished them in part to the Army and in part for parachute troops, which were established elsewhere, and we had to obtain replacements for these men. In part we received old people who were not trained at all, and to a very large extent we also obtained women. For these people training places had to be established in order to give them a short but intensive training, and in order to get thus acquainted with their new duties and tasks. This also required a lot of mobilization and quite a lot of work. A part of the work which also grew within that year was the air raid precaution medical service, which was centrally handled by my office. The further field of task was the care of the troops, wound dressings, medicine and other medical equipment. I had experienced people on my staff for these tasks, since I had done a lot of work previously in the procurement of equipment.

These tasks also required much of my time. A part of those tasks were also rendered increasingly difficult through the air warfare, and it was not a rare occurrence that depots burned down and that also larger depots were destroyed. And now we had. to change our dispositions and we had to change the supply of the units which had been dependent on these depots. In empty words now this also seems very simple, however, if all the difficulties which arose in that year are considered, and also we have to give consideration to the communication system, and the train connections which were not functioning properly, then perhaps these difficulties c an be understood.

Another field which required a lot of work in the year 1944 was the "fitness", because a larger number of people were conscripted. This frequently required a change to be made in the regulations for physical fitness, above all in our field of selecting people who were fit as aviators.

Another part of my tasks were things connected with the dental care. These things became constantly more extensive as the war continued, above all with regard to dental care when more people were conscripted into the Wehrmacht with damaged dental plates, and we had to care for them. On the other hand the procurement of the necessary material became constantly more difficult. Then we were confronted by a large number of hygienic problems, and through the happenings of the year 1944 that also became more difficult, because again as a result of the damage which has been caused by air attacks many bad conditions were caused and in order to alleviate them, for example, when water and drainage was disturbed and when billets had to be used, then this was the form of tasks which we had to deal with.

And at the end of the War there was the science. Unfortunately, from the extent of the other tasks which were necessary daily science frequently would not be given the necessary amount of attention. I had the main task to withdraw everything in research which was not necessary for the War, and only to work on the research which was vitally necessary for us.

Q: Witness, in describing this activity as Chief of the Medical Service, you mention that you had to travel around frequently; will you please tell us about the manner or the extent of those journeys, for example, did you also visit concentration camps?

A: As I can already state from what I have mentioned previously, my work required me to travel very frequently. For one thing, in order to carry out the change or transfer of hospitals which was caused by air attacks and also to consult in such matters, and on the other hand to also visit and inspect these new training courses which we had to establish and in order to advance myself on the state of the training. It was the case above all with regard to the training institutions which had been established for similar medical personnel, and I believe that I was traveling at least one-third of the month or more.

I have never visited any concentration camps, because they did not have anything to do with my field of tasks.

Q: Witness, I now ask you to tell us something about your agency itself with which you carried out this work?

A: In view of the necessary limitation in personnel I have always tried to carry out my work with as few as possible collaborators. The establishment of such an agency was carried out in approximately the following manner, that is from below to the superior agencies: A number of specialists, experts, so-called "referents" were used.

There were Stabsarzre or Oberstabarzre Physicians, who, according to their ability and their capacity were selected for that job. There were experts and specialists for the nursing system, the dental care and administrative workers, organizations of scientific aviation medicine and these referents were in those fields. When a field of tasks is enlarged they had to have a larger number of references which are usually divided into groups. We have groups of several expert specialists who to ether form a section which is directed by a section head. This section head usually had the rank of a colonel. Within such an agency he is the lowest instance which has the right to make a decision independently. This section head can give instructions towards the outside on his own initiative. The sections are brought together under the Chief of Staff. I had three such sections. The Chief of Staff is the Deputy of the Chief of the Medical Service. That is, the Chief of the Agency, in all kinds of pending matters. He furthermore has to settle the whole interior functioning of the agency. For example, all mail is addressed to him as far as it does not have to go to the Registry Official and is then immediately sent to the individual sections. However, the important mail, above all, secret mail, is addressed to the Chief of Staff. It is now up to the Chief of Staff to decide if it is to be handled by the section head, or because of its special urgency it first had to to submitted to me. At such an agency it is therefore quite possible and it could not have been done differently for the vast number of mail that arrived -that quite an amount of mail could not come to the personal attention of the chief of the agency but that it was handled by the section head or that they worked or issued with the agreement and consultation of the Chief of Staff and I can prove this through numbers and figures.

During my time of activity I have had five to six thousand opened letters and I will say 900 to a thousand secret letters in my agency and if part of the time I am absent then it can be considered impossible that I could personally look through all of my mail and that I could personally handle it. This was not necessary either in accordance with our service regulations. It was important for such an agency that the Chief of Staff was at home and that he was in charge of the assignments and the duties which had to be taken care of.

He had the necessary authority in order to do this and he had the disciplinary authority of a brigade commander and, furthermore, he had the authority to appropriate certain funds without first submitting these things to me. In summarizing the function of such an agency it must always be remembered that it is based on the confidence that the subordinate has with his superior and the confidence which the superior maintains in the subordinate. Wherever the confidence is lacking then the agency cannot function.

Q: Witness, will you give a short discussion to this Tribunal of the amount of work which you had to take care of every day? That is, the way you divided your work every day?

A: Yes.

Q: That is, how you had to work every day?

A: Especially with the requirements of the time I moved into my office. I did not live at home any more but I lived in my office, and I slept right next to my office. In the morning my duties usually began very early because in the morning between 7 and 8 o'clock I received the reports about the damage which had been caused by air attacks. Then from them I could again see what had happened during the previous 24 hours and this information caused me to chance my entire daily program. Then the morning passed while I reviewed the incoming mall and while I had discussions about these things.

Then visitors arrived from outside which had urgent questions to settle or who wanted to consult me and then the afternoon came with the very same task and above all, in the afternoon there was a report of the Department Heads — of the Section Heads, and the specialist experts about these things which they were working on. As a result of the incoming mail and these discussions usually it lasted until the very late hours in the evening. Then the reports which took up more time and since I don't want to be interrupted by long-distance telephone calls I used to arrange them for 8 or 18 o'clock in the evening and when the last person who had reported left then I had time to look ever everything in peace and quietness which I had to deal with personally and I used to continue with this work until about 12 o'clock at night.

On the next morning at 7 the same procedure was followed again.

DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, before I continue in my examination of the witness I would like to clarify the translation of a statement of the witness. Witness, Prof. Dr. Schroeder stated that every month you received five to six thousand open incoming letters in this agency and I am told that the words "every month" were left out in the translation and since this statement can be of importance I request that this statement be corrected in the record.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would suggest you have the witness restate what he said concerning that matter for the record.

A: The incoming mail which was received in my agency consisted of from five to six thousand open letters every month and approximately one thousand secret letters. Of these one thousand secret letters approximately five to six hundred were secret and three to four hundred were top secret.

Q: Witness, the Medical Academy was subordinate to you for the training of active medical officers for the Luftwaffe?

A: Yes. Originally the candidates were also trained at the Army Academy but with the growing of the academy this was not possible anymore. At the beginning of the war we established our own Medical Academy for the Luftwaffe. It had three training groups. One was located at Berlin, the other one at Wuerzburg and the third was located at Prague. The students of the Academy were distributed to these three training centers. Scientific institutes like, for example, the Army Academy were not connected with us. As a result of the war we had not been given this opportunity. He placed emphasis on the fact to leave the students between the semesters as such time as possible. They were not limited to military duty during that period of time but as far as this was necessary the Military training was placed into the holiday season where our students were attached for medical service with troop units and hospitals.

May I point out that preliminary basic military training was a prerequisite for the study.

The zeal of the students was extraordinarily great, the urge to get to study and to work. There existed a pronounced renunciation of political lectures and political teachings. We held generally educating lectures but specialized political lectures were not given with us because we had the impression that the students did rot want to hear anything about that subject. They applied their spare time well in other ways, and they were engaged in sports to a limited extent, and above all the teaching of music had become an important point. A college of music had been established where music was practiced with special care.

In order to apply to Professor Leibbrandt's views, may I point out here that the students did not only have the urge to work and to achieve something, but that they also did not remain without success in their attempt. From my last discussions with the Commander of the Academy I can still remember the result of the last medical examination which was held in 1944, and these figures perhaps indicate better than words what the results were of this work which was achieved. There were approximately fifty students who had to subject themselves to the last examination. Of these students, about twenty passed the examination with Very Good; twenty-five passed it with Good, and only five passed the examination with Satisfactory. None of the students failed to pass, and that happened, in Berlin and at Wuerzburg where the requirements of the students on the part of the professors, were very high.

Q: Witness, before we continue, I would like to point out to you that you should make a short pause after every sentence so that the interpreter will be able to keep up with you better. I would like you to do the same thing after every question I ask you.

Professor, what official and unofficial contacts did you have with the loading personalities of the State, the Party and the Wehrmacht?

A: I did not have any with the leading Party personalities.

Q: Did you not understand my question?

A: Yes, I said I did not have any contacts with loading personalities of the Party. Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels and Bormann I had never even seen during the war. I believe that I had to report to Hitler on one occasion in 1938, but not on any other occasion, and 4th Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Goering, I had to give Goering reports about my field of tasks, but otherwise I did not have any further contacts with him.

Q: Professor, were you also a member of medical societies and were you also active in the literary field? What can you tell the Tribunal on that subject?

A: I am a member of the German society for ear, throat and nose physicians, and that was the result of my special field. I was a member of the society of natural are nursing sciences, and then I was a member of the society of German medical officers; that is, the scientific military society. Then I was an honorary member of the German society for the dental and jaw practice. Then I was an honorary member of the University at Muenster, and I was an honorary professor of the Berlin Medical Faculty, and I was vice-president of the German society of hospitals within the framework of the international society of hospitals.

I was editor and collaborator of the journal of the German medical officers, and also of the journal about aviation medicine, on the central journal for the German hospital system, the Paradentium; that is, a journal which occupies itself with the paradentosis question, and of the journal "Deutsche Schwesternachaft" the German Nurse.

Q: Did you also publish scientific articles?

A: Yes. In the 20's I published several smaller works in my specialized field, and within the last ten or twelve years I published a number of works about the hospital systems and the construction of hospitals, about the nursing system. Then in the military hygienic training book I published articles about the construction of hospitals, but during the past few years all we dealt with was the problem of the hospital system.

Q: Witness, did you ever belong to any party of the NSDAP, or did you belong to any of its subordinate units?

A: Neither before nor actor 1933, I never belonged to any party. This point was one of the reasons which caused me to remain in the Wehrmacht because in the 100,000 men army we were prohibited from taking any active part in politics. I have always had an objection to occupying myself with questions of politics and I was glad that we had to keep out of these questions in the 100,000 men army.

For myself and my subordinates I have always taken care to see that this instruction was complied with. A soldier can only serve his father-land, and not a party. Whenever he leaves this ground, then he gets on a very skimpy surface. During my later activity I have always repeatedly told my subordinates that they should strictly fulfill their duties and to strictly adhere to that line, and to thus become an example to their subordinates. After, in 1944 I was permitted as a member of the Wechrmacht to join the Party I still did not make use of this offer, and I did not belong to any of the subordinate units either, although I could have joined them previously.

Q: After this general introduction I am now coming to the individual points of the indictment. Witness, the prosecution charges you primarily with having participated in a criminal conspiracy to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, together with the remaining defendants. In what connection do you stand with the other men who are also accused here and how many of them are known to you at all, and with how many of them did you have any closer relations of any kind?

A: The co-defendant Handloser is known more closely to me. Like myself he was in the 100,000 men army and at the time I became his successor as specialist in the Ministry. I further know my collaborators from the Luftwaffe, the defendants Rose, Becker-Freyseng, Weltz, Ruff, who have been known to me for a longer period of time, or I knew then already before the war. Romberg, Schaefer, Beiglboeck I met in 1944 during my time of activity as Medical Chief. I knew Brandt and Rostock slightly iron previous times, and of course, I had occasional contact with them in my capacity as Radical Chief which was, of course, caused by the position of those two men.

I saw Genzken on one or two occasions, also as Medical Chief, I believe that was when Professor Handloser called us to attend some discussion or conference, and of course I may have seen Blome or Gebhardt at Hohenlychen but the remainder are unknown to me, and I have only heard of their names here in Nurnberg.

Q: On what occasions did you have contact with Professor Brandt?

A: It was in my time when I was medical chief, when he was Reich Commissioner, and occasionally questions arose. Above all we were dealing with questions of the Air Raid Precaution Medical Service, and he occasionally required the assistance of my section head for these matters.

Q: Did it become known to you on some occasions that in the medical sector atrocities or extermination measures were to be carried out?

A: No never. In the time when I was fleet physician I frequently discussed with Professor Handloser the establishment for the care of the wounded of all countries. And as medical physician I was, of course, interested, but I believe that just the apposite was my task — to help all those who needed aid.

Q: I just wanted to ask you a question to this effect, and this question reads: During the war did you also take care of and did you negotiate about the physicians which were to the place in the occupied territories to take care of the civilian population?

A: Yes.

Q: And of what did this care consist for the population of the occupied territories?

A: Well, it was only natural that we dealt with this question and especially during the period of time when I fleet physician and we came into newly occupied territories where, through the evacuation of the population and through war operations the Medical care of the civilian population had come into disorder, we assisted with physicians, material, and personnel whatever we could, and I gave the order that civilians of any age or sex were to be admitted in our hospitals and that they were to be treated there as far as the situation enabled us to do this. However, it was superfluous to give this order, because every hospital had already been this on its own initiative. Also, on various inspections which I male in the hospitals I was able to convince myself that this order was being complied with to the utmost extent, and wherever we wanted to use hospitals or wherever we had to use them, this was always done under consultation of the local civilian authorities so that the civilian authorities of the occupied territories also were able to keep sufficient space for their own people.

We did this in the west, in the east, and in Italy to the fullest extent. On one occasion I built an operation room for the civilian authorities, but that was, of course, only natural for us to do that.

Q: Witness, the Prosecution charges you personally from the time of 1941 to 1943 with the fact that you, as the second highest medical officer of the Luftwaffe, are alleged to have knowledge of certain criminal occurrences during that period of time. Will you please describe in detail to the Tribunal your official position during that period of time?

A: Yes. I have found this statement frequently in the documents. I can only explain it to be a mistake in the translation or a mistake in hearing. When Hippke was inspector he had the rank of Generalaborstabsarzt. That would correspond to the Lt. General in the American Army. For the same period of time I had the rank of Generalstansarzt. That, in the American Army, corresponds to the Major General of the American Army. That is to say, during that period of time I had the second highest army rank. We call the individual ranks official grades. The highest was Generaleberstabsarzt, and the second highest was Generalstabsarzt. Within this group of Generalstabsarzt we in the Luftwaffe had six offices, and of these offices I had the third. There were senior Generalstabsarte above me. That was Generalstabsarzt Neumueller and Generalstabsarzt Piauer. Neumueller was the second highest medical officer at the time of Hippke, in order to use the statement which has been used by the Prosecution. During that period of time,from 1941 to 1943, Neumueller was also at Berlin — or from '40. He first was commander of the Military Medical Academy and afterwards he was airfleet physician "Reich". That is to say, both agencies were located in Berlin and his resistance was also located in Berlin. As was required by his position, on various occasions he was the deputy of Hippke when the latter became sick.

I already said with regard to the organization of my agency that in current affairs the chief of staff was a deputy, that in case of a normal absence, as for example when I was away for eight or ten days, no deputy was appointed. Then the work was handled by the chief of staff. For the most part I tried every night or second night to call my agency by telephone, and then I was able to clarity questions which had accumulated. That is the reason why no special deputy had to be appointed for me, only when through an extended illness or through an absence which could not be replaced, when the chief of the agency was absent for a longer period of time, then a deputy was appointed. From time to time as far as I can remember this was the case on one occasion in 1942 that Neumueller was the deputy of Hippke for a period of several weeks and that perhaps on some occasion he was consulted in his capacity as deputy of Hippke. During this period of time, around 1943, I was in Italy, Sicily, and Africa, and I was so far from Berlin that any consultation for work — or that I was unable to receive any orders for special assignments. After all, it was difficult to reach me during the period which I have just mentioned. I was hardly ever located in Berlin.

Q: In accordance with this, your contacts with the medical chief at that time were very small?

A: I believe that in the time between 1941 and 1943 I have seen him on two occasions, for a few hours. I believe that this was when I was at Berlin. I believe that it was not more than two times.

Q: The Prosecution has accused you, supported by the fact that you were alleged to have been the second highest medical officer, it now charges you with the responsibility for the high altitude and freezing experiments in the concentration camp Dachau which were carried out in the year 1942. What do you have to say in that connection?

THE PRESIDENT: Before taking this matter up the Tribunal will take its noon recess until 1:30.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)