1947-02-26, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1345 hours, 26 February 1947.)

EXAMINATION OF OSKAR SCHROEDER — Resumed

BY THE PRESIDENT:

The Tribunal has no further questions to propound to the witness. Does defense counsel have any further question of the witness?

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. MARX:

Q: Witness, in the course of the examination by the Honorable Judges you made a statement as to the unfitness of persons to serve in the Armed Forces. Do you have enough knowledge of the subject in order to give your opinion on that subject?

A: I did not understand your question correctly.

Q: I am asking you if you had enough knowledge of the subject in order to be able to answer such a question about the unfitness of persons to serve in the military forces.

A: The unfitness of such persons to serve in the Armed Forces?

Q: Yes, under what prerequisite was a member of the Armed Forced declared as unfit to serve?

A: That was a decision which had to be made by a court or a judge.

Q: Therefore, a verdict had to be given by a military court or courtmartial?

A: Yes. However, this was based on evidence which had been presented by the superior officers.

Q: Yes, but a member of the Armed Forces could not be declared as unfit to serve unless a verdict had been given by a court-martial.

A: Yes, that is correct. And in order to do this the disciplinary superior officer had his judge who advised him on these matters, yes.

Q: And a further prerequisite was that he had been sentenced to a term in jail or some other dishonorable punishment?

A: Yes.

Q: Like, for example, death punishment for desertion or because of rape, robbery or similar crimes?

A: Yes.

DR. MARX: I do not have any further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: With no further examination by defense counsel the prosecution may proceed.

DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, I request the permission of the Tribunal to now call as my first witness, the witness Jentsch because this witness has to leave this afternoon on a trip to England. The prosecution has no objection for my calling the witness at this time.

THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will summon the witness Jentsch and the witness Schroeder is temporarily excused from the stand and will resume his place in the dock.

(The witness was excused temporarily.)

THE PRESIDENT: I would advise counsel that during the lunch recess I made some inquiry concerning the witness Grodl and was informed that every effort is being made to procure the attendance of that witness at the earliest possible date.

WERNER JENTSCH, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:

BY JUDGE SEBRING:

Q: Please raise your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MARX:

Q: Witness, would you please give us your first and your family name.

A: My name is Werner Jentsch.

Q: When and where were you born?

A: I was born on the 3rd of April 1913 at Chemnitz.

Q: And where is your present residence?

A: I am living presently at Cassel.

Q: And what is your profession?

A: I am a Protestant priest and Licensiat.

Q: What activity are you engaged in at present?

A: At present I have the office of Director of the YMCA college at Cassel, that is, in German, the Youth Secretary School at Cassel. I am now traveling to England as German Director for War Prisoners' Aid.

Q: What kind of an organization is that?

A: That is the aid for prisoners of war of the Christian Youth Movement which is sponsored for all German prisoners of war by the International League at Geneva.

Q: Witness, will you please tell us in your own words, and give the Tribunal a short sketch of, your life history and also tell the Tribunal about your political attitude.

A: I studied theology at Leipzig and Berlin and I passed the state examination at the University of Leipzig. First of all I was a priest for the youth in central and southern Germany and I was director of the YMCA college at Berlin. At the outbreak of the war I became an army chaplain, I became a chaplain for the Luftwaffe units at Berlin. Actually, the Luftwaffe did not have its own ministers and I was an army chaplain. However, I was used as minister for the Luftwaffe for the civic commander. When Himmler was able to develop his power in the OKH I lost my office in 1943.

I was conscripted as a simple soldier and I was medical soldier with the parachute troops. After the collapse I was used by the Americans and the English in Italy as senior chaplain for entire Italy and as liaison man for the British and the Americans for the German prisoners of war in the Mediterranean area. In this capacity I was responsible for the reeducation and denazification of the German prisoners of war in Italy. As a result of this, I was given the opportunity to perform some work which I was unable to attain during the period of the Third Reich. To the contrary, during the regime of the Third Reich I was confronted with many difficulties.

When Pastor Niemoeller was arrested in 1937, I, as a confessional minister of the Lutheran Church, participated in this work and I was also arrested. As a result of my activity on behalf of the YMCA I was expelled from Danzig and from 1934 my activities were watched by the Gestapo and I was given a special court trial by the Gestapo.

Then, in 1943, I lost my office because Himmler wanted to prevent my influence on the Luftwaffe. In the course of my activity, which I had to carry out in the Third Reich, I was only assisted by very few Germans. At the time I became acquainted with General Schroeder, a man who did not hesitate to help me.

Q: Witness, when and on what occasion did you make the acquaintance of Dr. Schroeder?

A: That was at the very beginning of the outbreak of the war. He was the father of one of my students and one day he called me and asked me to hold the Christmas ceremony at the Reich Sports Field in Berlin, of the Luftwaffe. He maintained the point of view that a Christmas celebration for soldiers could only be held in the presence of a minister and with a clear concession to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

This gave me the possibility for the first time to be heard and to speak before the men and women of the Third Reich in a larger circle, which were taking particular care of that hospital at that time. Therefore they were especially kind because the Luftwaffe usually refused any special aid in that respect.

It was on that occasion that I made the acquaintance of Professor Schroeder.

Q: Did not this attitude of Professor Schroeder on that occasion have a certain risk connected with it for him?

A: It was connected with a risk for him because official spiritual welfare for soldiers of the Luftwaffe had not been planned for in Berlin. Thus, as an officer he gave an example and he maintained an attitude which was contrary to the official attitude of higher officers in the Luftwaffe

Q: What were your further contacts with Professor Schroeder?

A: On the basis of this Christmas celebration at the hospital I requested Professor Schroeder to let us carry out the spiritual welfare in all Luftwaffe hospitals in the vicinity of Berlin. Through a special decree I received the permission to hold a service every week and also to have a discussion with the wounded medical officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers.

His son Hans was one of my confirmation students and he was one of the best students there. After having been confirmed, he became the director of a small group of boys and girls who, in spite of the prohibition against the Protestant youth, assembled once weekly. Professor Schroeder permitted us to hold the meetings of this group in his house.

Then, in the official position which I occupied, he helped me in many forms. For example, he helped me in obtaining negotiations and discussions which I had to engage in with loading men of the Luftwaffe in order to guarantee that I could take care of the spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe personnel in Berlin. Then, he also personally frequently intervened in the work which I had to do with the prison in Berlin. When a member of the medical sector had been accused, and when I believed that he was being unjustly sentenced, then I was entitled to report to him directly about the matter.

Q: Witness, you spoke of the time until Professor Schroeder was transferred as Air Fleet physician, that is, when he was at Berlin, Now I come to the time when he was Fleet Medical Officer with Air Fleet 2. Were you again in touch with him from that time on?

A: Even during this period I had contact with him. He also helped me in my work, which was not very easy, from Italy. At the time I was the liaison man of the Confessional Church to the agencies which were kindly disposed towards us at that time in the Wehrmacht. My spiritual advisor was the Minister von Bodelschwingh, who has died in the meantime.

During the time when Professor Schroeder was in Italy, I tried to start a main office for spiritual welfare of the Luftwaffe. However, all my attempts failed in the beginning. Since General Bodenschatz, who had become the contact person with Goering, had intervened on his part, and he was kindly disposed towards me, I took a new opportunity in order to again start discussing the question of spiritual welfare in the Luftwaffe.

The predecessor of Professor Schroeder, Professor Hippke, and General von Hase, who was later on hung by order of Hitler, and the civilian adjutant of Goering, Ministerial Director Boettge, and I, tried to formulate a memorandum in which it was shown that the wounded and the dying in the hospitals of the Luftwaffe were in need of spiritual welfare by the Catholic, as well as by the Protestant Church. At the time a secret circular was directed to all chief medical officers of the Luftwaffe, and all air district medical officers, in order to discover the religious attitude of soldiers of the Luftwaffe. The result, which never became known in Germany, was that 65 percent of all hospital inmates requested, spiritual welfare. Among the statements of the persons who answered who individual questions, the questionnaire of Professor Schroeder was the most outstanding and the the most important. In very sharp and clear words he gave reasons, from the Italian theater of operations, that spiritual welfare for members of the Luftwaffe hospitals was necessary. As the the situation had deteriorate to such an extent that dead German soldiers in the hospitals, who were Protestants, had to be buried by an Italian Catholic priest because no German Minister was available, and the soldiers in the Luftwaffe who had been ministers in their civilian professions were not allowed to engage in the civilian activity.

This happened during the time when Prof. Schroeder was in Italy, and the filling in and the handling of the questionnaires had been entrusted to me by Prof. Hippke. We were able to address a memorandum to the command in chief of the Luftwaffe, and the good examples which Prof. Schroeder gave about the prevailing situation assisted me at the time in formulating the memorandum in such a way that the only person who was at all kindly disposed towards the question of Christianity — and that was not a man, but a woman that was Mrs. Goering, at the time accepted this memorandum in order to present it to her husband. However this resulted in a complete failure, because Goering did not have very much authority any more in 1942 and therefore nothing changed. However, we did achieve success in one point, because several German medical officers of the Luftwaffe had the courage to state to the National Socialist regime that Christian spiritual welfare in the Wehrmacht was necessary. It became tolerated after a while that at the time when officially spiritual welfare on members of the Luftwaffe were prohibited — such spiritual welfare could be given with the individual approval of several officers and that several soldiers now were able to spiritual welfare as ministers. Of course, they were not military chaplain but they were plain soldiers who had been ministers in civilian life.

That is sufficient for the time being, and while for the time being Prof. Schroeder was in Italy.

Q: From April, 1943, you had been conscripted as a soldier in the medical service of the Luftwaffe. Was your contact to Prof. Schroeder interrupted as a result of this, or did you still have contact with him subsequently?

A: When I lost my office in 1943 I had to be very careful, because I was being watched by various sides. For example, I was prohibited from entering the office of the Reichsmarshall, and I could only under an assumed name, namely Johann II, have any contact at all with the officers of the Luftwaffe who were kindly disposed toward me, because, thank God, there were German officers who had more regard for Christianity than for the orders by the Gestapo. At that time I again got into contact with Prof. Schroeder through a remarkable fact. I came to Saldorf near Berlin as a simple medical soldier. There I did the usual service and duty performed the rest of the soldiers there. I was just a simple soldier. One day I received a letter from the Reich Military Court. It was signed by the high prosecutor, by the Reichs Kriegs Attorney, General Staff Judge Krell. In this letter he requested me to immediately draft a memorandum in a certain matter, and in this case conscientious objectors were concerned who refuse to serve for religious reasons.

This came about in the following manner: During my activity as military chaplain of Berlin I also cared for the military prisons which were located in Berlin. In these prisons there was contained a large number of so-called Jehovah's Witnesses. Amongst them there were also member of the Mennonites, of the Quakers, and there was one representative of the Protestant Church. At that time, together with my Catholic colleagues, I was the only person entitled to visit these prisons. And because of the large number of prisoners confined there, we were unable to see all of them. However, those for whom I felt a particular sympathy were the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they did not have any rights at all. They were not given justice.

While the Catholic priests, on the basis of their agreement with Rome, did not have to serve in the armed forces but could either go into the medical service of the Wehrmacht or they were not conscripted at all. But they, on their part, were not wiling to perform any military service. The Protestant objectors for religious reasons, and above all, the group of Jehovah's Witnesses, did not have any advantages whatsoever. On the contrary, they were sentenced to death by Hitler without any consideration whatsoever, although the legal situation was the same as that of my Catholic friends. At the time both my Catholic colleagues and I tried everything in order to help these people. In the Reich court there were also men who at that time occupied themselves particularly with this case, and if I am not mistaken, in the year 1942, on the occasion of a reception at the President of the Reich Military Court. Admiral Bastian and the Senior Reich Military Court Prosecutor, General Staff Judge Krell, I received the permission to draft a memorandum which was to be of help to the delinquents and which was to help them change their point of view, if possible.

The Reich Military Court was determined, thanks to the attitude of Bastian and Krell, who were kindly disposed towards Christianity, to postpone the execution of the sentences until such time when we ministers had been given an opportunity to give spiritual welfare for these men for a sufficient amount of time. If we had succeeded in changing the attitude of one of the delinquents, by virtue of the law which was in existence at that time, he was dismiss, from confinement and sent to the front. As a result of the fact that we were given the opportunity to work on these people, we were able to save large number of people from their death punishment, and we were able above all to care for the families which had gotten into terrible difficulties as a result of these series of murders. I had just begun with the [illegible] that was with its duplicate form and also with the popular version for the delinquents themselves, and also as a religious psychological form for the representatives of the Reich Military Court, when my house, my library, my books were burned as a result of a British air attack. Ten days later also lost my office.

I became a plain private in the army, who could not take it upon himself any more to contact as high an agency as the Reich Military Court. As I have stated, after the period of one year, that is, at the beginning of 1943, the General Staff Judge Krell addressed me with the request to once more make an application in matters pertaining to the conscientious objectors. He simply directed this letter to my address and it did not call for any particular attention, because he was the father one of my former religious students whom I had confirmed. He also request me in the letter to keep the matter secret. Then I got into a very great difficulty, because I was a private first class in the Luftwaffe. First of all, I should have seen my company commander, and then I should have [illegible] the whole matter.

At the time, after a severe struggle with myself, I reached the decision to give all my confidence to a man who was willing to risk something for the sake of Christianity. The man whom I trusted was Osker Schroeder. At the time, I went to his agency by avoiding regular channels. I succeeded and I told him and his adjutant, Augustiniak about the whole matter.

At the time, Professor Schreoder told me he wanted to help me. On very same day I received an official room at Saalow. It was an officer's room. I was given a furlough for three months in order to draft his manuscript. Then I had the opportunity to work out the important manuscript in peace and quiet. It was a manuscript on whose success the lives of thousand of people depended. Neither Professor Schroeder nor I were conscientious objectors for religious reasons. He was an officer. And I had been a military chaplain for three years. However, we were human beings who respected the viewpoint of the conscientious objectors for religious reasons.

We wanted to help them within the framework of this manuscript. We, on our part, believed we were able to suggest that these conscientious objectors should be used as enlisted men in the medical service with parachute troops or that they should work with the Organization Todt in defense work. I particularly intervened in these two points for the reason that a large number of the people were prepared to do two things: They refused to handle any weapons, but they were willing to go to the front. Secondly, they did not want to give any religious oaths, but they, on their part, were willing to enter into an obligation. Hitler would have refused both ways. He actually did. We were unable to help them any more in this way. There was only one further way. That was the postponement of the execution of the sentences.

After the three months passed, I submitted the memorandum to the Reich Military Court. I then came as an enlisted man in the medical service to the parachute unit in Italy. In the summer of 1944, I requested a furlough in order to have this memorandum to the Reich Military court printed. My superior with the parachute unit at that time was again a medical officer of the Luftwaffe.

It was a friend of General Schroder. His name was Oberstabarzt Fischer. He gave me permission although he knew what the manuscript concerned.

Then in the days of 20 July or afterwards, I came to Germany. Gentlemen, you know what was going on in Germany at that time. I then had an attack of malaria and I was unable to move. Three of my friends were hung by Hitler. I administered welfare to all three families. I was the person who educated those boys. One was General von Hase, the City Commander of Berlin. The second was General Freygebel of the OKW. The third was General Thiele who was working at the same agency.

During this period of time, I also tried to get into contact with Professor Schroeder. At that time I was his subordinate. At that time, I was not a minister any more. At the time, he made it possible for me to again get into touch with Thorgau and also with Thiele, so that the memorandum could be printed. In the meantime, within the OKW the political situation had progressed to such a point that we were unable to have this memorandum printed without first obtaining official approval.

At the time, a copy was sent, for reference, to the Reich Military. Nobody was allowed to discuss the subject. The popular memorandum, on the other hand, was placed at the disposal of the delinquents. There were approximately 50 typewritten pages. In the course of a telephone conversation, I remember exactly, Professor Schroeder charged me with the care the family of the City Commander Hase. General Hase was hung after the happenings of 20 July. He knew that we had the same convictions as he did I was the only person who, at that time, was in the technical position to help him.

My furlough came to an end. I did not have the time any more to take any action. Only now, after my return from Italy have I been able to again get in touch with the family. When I travelled to Italy again, Professor Schroeder gave me a special recommendation, that was with the Ambassador the Holy See, Baron von Weizaecker. There also, the case of the conscientious objectors was involved. Baron von Weizaecker was able, as a result of the information which I imparted to him, to intervene in this matter the Vatican.

I want to emphasize, particularly, that Baron von Weizaecker and I are both protestants. However, this was a matter which pertained to human in general. Confessions were not involved anymore, but these matters concerned everybody who was a Christian. As a result of this intervention, it was possible for me to indirectly inform the Vatican. And at the time, Professor Schroeder, gave me the opportunity to do this. This was in the period while I was in Italy.

Q: What general picture can you give of the personality and the character of Professor Schroeder?

A: May it please the Tribunal, the usual place from which I speak is the pulpit, not the witness stand. The message which I have to give at the pulpit is devoted to love and truth. Here the legal questions are involved. However, it is necessary in the case of emergency, for the minister to leave his pulpit and enter the witness box. Because otherwise whatever he says in the pulpit is neither love nor truth.

Professor Schroeder was a member of my community, my congregation. He helped me although he knew I was a confessional minister. He did this during a period of time when the entire confessional church was persecution I, myself, was confined to prison. I know, now, how he feels. I would not be able to look him in the eye if at this time I would not be ready to testify that to which my conscience obligates me. I know that this will cause me to become unpopular. The same truth is involved here as is involved in the pulpit. I am not a soldier and I am not a physician. I am minister and I hope to be a Christian. Only as such, can I say anything about Professor Schroeder. However, I am of the conviction that what has been stated about him in the indictment cannot be true. I cannot imagine that he would have anything to do with that. It would also be contrary to any inner moral logic. How can a man who on the one side helped the Jehovah's Witness's, persons who are politically persecuted and in whose exterminate the Third Reich had an interest, be interested in exterminating people in concentration camps?

How can he be pleased to watch this problem superficially?

He who takes care of other things with such risk involved, he would also have taken care, much care in this point. I think it will be sufficient for me to point out one factor. I have heard of Professor Schroedor's arrival in Italy by radio. During that period, I still, for a period of three months, was a prisoner, although I was a trustee of Americans and the British. I was unable to take any action from there. I have now returned to Germany and I have reported.

It may be of interest to the Tribunal that already four weeks after end of the War I was present at one of the first orientation of the secret service, and that I had already mentioned the name of Professor Shroedor that time in a positive sense, because the London Minister of War requested me at that time to give all the information which I had about the personalities of the Third Reich. At the time I stated everything I knew, and repeat I am a minister. I am unable to right the wrong. That is not my primary duty. It is not my primary duty to put the wrongs into the right. That is your duty. However, it is my duty to call good whatever is good. That is what I intended to do here. In any case the Christian congregation will not forget what Professor Shroeder has done on its behalf, because it is not the custom of Christians to forget.

DR. MARX: I thank you. I have reached the end of my examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination of this witness on the part of any defense counsel?

There being none the prosecution may cross examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:

Q: Doctor, can you tell us approximately the number of times you have personally contacted Professor Shroedor?

A: At least 20 times, certainly.

Q: You say you lost your job as a Luftwaffe Chaplain because of Himmler?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you know that concentration camps were under Himmler and the SS?

A: The concentration camps, yes.

Q: Did you ever visit one?

A: No.

Q: Do you know what sort of prisoners they retained in the concentration camps?

A: What kind of prisoners were kept or confined in concentration camps? I have only heard that to the fullest extent after the collapse, but otherwise I know that because of political persecution and racial persecution and religious persecution, persons were kept in concentration camps and I also know that some of my boys of the YMCA were also confined there.

Q: And you yourself were persecuted by the Gestapo?

A: Yes, I was probably watched after 1933, and over since that time and I was arrested in 1937. In the same year I was expelled from the [illegible] and then I was subjected to a trial by special court, which I have already previously mentioned.

Q: And did you feel that the concentration camps were a threat to you during this period?

A: Yes, certainly. After all I myself was in prison and at that time the question arose that I myself could have been sent into a concentration camp, and that was in August 1937. And all the way through the trial it was handled very competently by a German defense counsel and this was prevented. During the interrogation he sent me a note in which he previously told me to testify, and he gave me some word of the possibility to escape this.

Q: You mentioned the fact that the Jehovah Witnesses were persecuted by the SS; do you know whether the Jehovah Witnesses were sent to concentration camps?

A: Yes, I knew that.

Q: Do I understand you to say that it was a practice to condemn Jehovah Witnesses to death?

A: You must make a difference between two things, first, those Jehovah Witnesses who from the civilian localities had been sent into a concentration camp, and were subordinated to the administration of Himmler. Second, the others who had been quite normally conscripted by the German Wehrmacht were from the date of their conscription subordinated to the Wehrmacht and on the first day of active service they testified at some of the German Wehrmacht that they refused, to perform military service, and then they were transferred to the Military Court by the commander of that office, so we have the state of affairs that the Jehovah Witnesses were in the concentration camps, although these people were not murdered, and although they would certainly have refused to serve in the armed forces.

However, on the other hand the prisoners, conscientious objectors and the persons after having received their death sentences were executed.

Q: And these conscientious objectors who were conscripted into the Wehrmacht and refused to serve were tried by a Military Tribunal, sentenced to death and were committed to a prison to await execution, is that right?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: I take it that you have some familiarity with the punitive measures carried out in the Luftwaffe on soldiers who had committed crime of one sort or another, is that right?

A: In some cases I was informed about it, because I took care of the military prisoners in Berlin.

Q: Have you ever heard of a Wehrmacht soldier or a Luftwaffe soldier having been sent to a concentration camp as punishment for some crime he committed while a member of the Luftwaffe?

A: Well, that was as follows. As far as I can remember a soldier in the Luftwaffe who had committed a crime and if the crime was very severe he was tried by the Reich Military Court, and then he was sentenced to a labor camp and that was Germersheim and Thorgau, which I have already mentioned earlier. That is as far as I can remember, and as far as possible, I am not already informed about this, after the regular trial had been completed and according to the regular procedure, several of them were sent to a concentration camp. However, this did not include Jehovah Witnesses.

Q: These labor camps you have mentioned were they under the Jurisdiction of Himmler?

A: Yes. I believe these labor camps were subordinated to the Wehrweht, because I had a colleague who was working there and certainly there are no ministers in the concentration camps, but certainly they are there as prisoners.

Q: Let me put a case to you; you have heard of the Concentration camp Dachau, I assume?

A: Yes.

Q: You know that that camp was under the jurisdiction of the SS and Reich Fuehrer Himmler?

A: Yes. I was recently there for about eight days as a prisoner.

Q: Have you ever heard of any member of the Wehrmacht who had committed a crime while a member of the Wehrmacht having been sent to Dachau?

A: Will you ask the question so the answer could be directly or indirectly.

Q: Just tell me what you know about that situation anyway you want to, put it directly or indirectly.

A: As far as I know in any case members of the Wehrmacht were only sentenced to concentration camps after they had been expelled from the Wehrmacht. That may be approximately the same case which was applied to the jail at Brandenburg. The jail at Brandenburg was the place where former members of the Wehrmacht were executed. My friend Toolscher and I in successful cases and as far as we were successful in doing so we were present at such executions when we issued special rites during the last hours of the condemned until this practice was eliminated. Former members of the Wehrmacht were there who had been condemned to death, and three days before the sentence was executed they were expelled from the Wehrmacht, those that had obtained the status of civilians. I am advised the same applied to concentration camps. However, I am only informed about that, but the situation at Brandenburg I have seen.

Q: As far as you know, Wehrmacht soldiers condemned to death were executed in this prison which you have mentioned, is that right?

A: At Brandenburg, yes.

MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the court will be in recess before pursuing the examination.

(A recess was taken.)