1947-02-28, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 28 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHA: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court room with the exception of Defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to sickness.
THE PRESIDENT: I have the certificate from the prison physician certifying that Defendant Oberheuser is unable to appear in court today so she will be excused from appearance at the Tribunal and her absence will prejudice her case. I will file with the Secretary-General the physician certificate.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. H. AUGUSTINICK — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is reminded he is still under oath.
BY DR. MARX:
Q: Witness, yesterday we stopped at the visit of Professor Schroeder to Strasbourg.
A: Yes.
Q: Please begin again and describe your visit to the Institute of Professor Haagen. What did you see there?
A: We were conducted by Professor Haagen, he showed us the Institute. We saw the lecture halls and the usual university arrangements of a hygiene institute. As I said yesterday, we saw the large animal stalls. The visit I estimate lasted one hour.
Q: Were experiments on human beings mentioned in any connection that visit?
A: No, I would certainly remember that.
Q: What was the subject of the conversation?
A: The subject of the conversation was the production of vaccine.
Q: Was the manner of production discussed?
A: Yes, it was the production of typhus vaccine from rabbit lungs.
Q: Was anything said about what assignment this was?
A: That may be but I do not remember that in detail.
Q: An assignment for the production of vaccine should have been issued in 1941 or 1942 by the Medical Inspectorate.
A: That may be.
Q: Do you know anything about that?
A: No, I do not know anything about it.
Q: While inspecting the institute of Professor Haagen did you notice anything which might indicate experiments on human beings being conducted by Haagen?
A: No, in no way. It was a hygiene institute like any other.
Q: Then together with Professor Schroeder you left Strasbourg in the evening?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you talk to Professor Schroeder about the visit to Haagen and your impressions?
A: Oh, yes. On the train we discussed the impressions which we had gained during the day.
Q: Now what did you say?
A: The individual impressions which we had from the various institutes, for example, from the accident hospital, from the surgical practice of Professor Zuckschwerdt — a few selected cases had been demonstrated to them the way the animals were kept in the hygiene institute which was extremely modern and the animals were very numerous.
Q: Now, if Professor Schroeder had gained the impression that Professor Haagen or his institute was doing anything objectionable don't think that he would have spoken to you about it at that time?
A: Yes, certainly. He certainly could have done that.
Q: Was it so that Professor Schroeder discussed things with you that impressed him especially?
A: Yes, especially when Professor Schroeder was Fleet Physician, later at the medical inspectorate, not so much any more, as is easy to understand, but still quite frequently.
Q: You meant to say that as his duties increased it was no longer possible to keep the relationship so close because he was too busy?
A: Yes, and I was very busy too.
Q: Will you please tell us now Professor Schroeder acted towards you in the office and what was your general opinion of his attitude?
A: I was connected with him for a considerable time. I knew him especially well but to the other associates too, as Chief of the Medical Service, — the number increased to 25 to 30 technical experts, — he was always, I might say, a fatherly superior. He never acted like a military commander as was sometimes the case.
Q: When Professor Schroeder became medical chief, that was the first of January 1944, what did he say about his possible attitude if he would be suspected of anything which he for his own person would repudiate?
A: He told me at the time that he personally would conduct his office in such a way as was demanded of a decent doctor, and in regard to thing for which he could not take the responsibility he would combat them with all possible means. Moreover, in a discussion about the 10th or 12th of January at which all officers, non-commissioned officers and enlisted men and the female clerks were called together, he described his working process. He outlined his working program and then he expressed the limitations which I have just mentioned in a form which could be readily understood.
Q: Can you remember any statement that he said he would leave his position immediately, he would give up his office, if he were suspected of anything immoral?
A: Yes, he did not say that once to me but several times.
Q: Witness, can you tell the Tribunal anything about the attitude Professor Schroeder toward wounded and sick persons?
A: Yes.
Q: Especially non-German nationals.
A: His attitude toward wounded persons was closely connected with his personal attitude toward the hospital system as such. All his efforts were devoted to the hospital system and to the wounded.
As for his attitude toward foreign wounded, I can give an example. You know that on 8 September 1943 the Italian relationship was severed. Our office was at Frascati, near Rome. The small town had about 9,000 inhabitants at the time. Between 12:10 and 12:40, at noon, there was an air raid. There were about 7,000 dead in the city. We lost 85 soldiers. I was [illegible] by a close hit, and I was not able to work fully. Professor Schroeder personally took charge of the rescue work in the city. He worked day and night to re-establish public life.
In addition, about two weeks later, just below Frascati, we had to take care of a prisoner camp in which there were about 600 American enlisted men and officers, 300 Englishmen, and 100 Italians — altogether, about 1000 men. These prisoners were from the battle of Salerno and Nettune. There were about 100 wounded among them I was more or less the only medical officer, with the exception of Professor Schroeder, and I was put in charge of those wounded, and every afternoon I was there for several hours. There were cases which urgently needed stationary treatment. However, because of the destruction of our medical installations, there were certain difficulties in our old hospital and our dispensary. He immediately had me set up installations for the wounded soldiers. he personally supervised this work, as well as my care of the wounded. There were two — I don't remember whether they were American or English— officers at the time whom I get to know rather well. One of the officers thanked me for the care, and he wrote down my name before he left for Munich.
Q: Are you through?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know that Professor Schroeder took an interest in the spiritual care of the members of the Luftwaffe and the civilians?
A: Yes, I knew that.
Q: How did he do that?
A: He had an important part in seeing to it that the Luftwaffe chaplain service was set up. There were considerable difficulties to be overcome, and he exerted his influence, and, in my opinion — without orders, without waiting for instructions—he took the necessary steps.
Q: Do you know the name Lutze?
A: Yes. That was the medical corporal who was in our office in Frascati. He was a priest.
Q: A Jesuit?
A: I don't know which order, but I knew that he was a priest.
Q: He was a medic, and he was not permitted as a chaplain?
A: No.
Q: But Professor Schroeder, against existing regulations, made it possible for him to work as a chaplain?
A: Yes, that is true.
Q: Is it not true that he could have suffered for this action?
A: Yes, that would have been possible.
Q: I mean Professor Schroeder?
A: Yes, I understand.
Q: Can you say anything about the political attitude, the ideology, of Professor Schroeder?
A: Yes. Professor Schroeder is a non-political person. He never belonged to the Party or any organization. After 20 July 1944 the opportunity to join the Party organizations, he not only did not make any use of this opportunity, but clearly expressed his opinion that was out of the question for him and he hoped for his entourage as well.
Q: How did he fell about the events of 20 July?
A: He was so shaken and disturbed by all the excitement of this day; he had to get a little time to think, and in the next few days he told me what he thought of the whole thing and how appalled he was at the decision of the court at the time. He did not watch his language, and he very clearly expressed his opinion of this court decision. One had to be careful; one had to restrain him.
Q: Was it not the fact that Professor Schroeder with his subordinates made known very disapprovingly of the methods of the Party and the brutal execution of power?
A: Yes.
Q: And often in a way that was very dangerous for him?
A: Yes. The people to whom he made these statements were not always just our group of comrades. They were frequently guests from outside, and one never knew what such people would do with what they heard. We frequently had to ask him to be more careful in his statements, since he and the Medical Service would no doubt suffer if that went on.
Q: And how did he react?
A: He was held back with difficulty, but he broke out again repeatedly. I can give an example of his inner attitude. His last son, Hans who has meanwhile fallen, was graduating from high school, and in order to take the examination, he had to perform his service in the Hitler Youth. He did it with a lukewarm attitude and with inner reservations, so that he had difficulties in his Hitler Youth unit.
One day a 17 or 18 year old Hitler Youth leader came to see Professor Schroeder at his home and remonstrated to the father, Schroeder, and asked why he, as a father, did not see to it that his son should exercise his duty and this young man said, "Hitler Youth Service is a duty, and you, General, must know what duty means." One can understand that for an old officer that was a very clear affront from such a young man. The interview was promptly broken off.
Q: Do you remember that Professor Schroeder once took the part of Jehovah's Witness, or people who refused to bear arms and were politically persecuted?
A: Yes, I know that.
Q: Will you please describe it?
A: One day Professor Schroeder told me to give a Pastor Jentsch an opportunity to speak to him unseen by the Medical Unit. This man was preparing some work affecting the problem of Jehovah's Witnesses and their relationship with the court. This work was written partly in a room of the officer's section and partly in my room.
Q: Did he give Pastor Jentsch a room in his office in Saalow?
A: Yes; it was my office.
Q: Now, doctor, a few questions about the professional aspect. Did not Professor Schroeder take a personal interest in operation and participate as spectator, and did he not personally inquire about various individual wounded?
A: Yes; when we looked at a hospital, a military hospital or a civilian hospital, it was not an inspection. We just looked at it. And his visits to the wards were medical visits, and I often had the impression that even a specialist was able to learn one thing or another from Professor Schroeder. And his visits to the hospital were extremely fruitful and enjoyable for everyone concerned. One saw all his love of the medical profession.
Q: What impression did you have of Professor Schroeder's attitude toward the medical profession and toward medical ethics?
A: Only the best opinion. I can only say that we always had the impression that he was an example to us in this respect, and as long as he were with the fleet we were often envied for our fleet physician.
Q: How about his care for the nurses?
A: That was the second thing in which he took a special interest. The nursing personnel in the Luftwaffe were really selected in time, and, in the almost five years when I worked with him, I know of only one single case in which a nurse fell out of step and had to be dismissed with a warning. He took a great interest in the nurses and I can hardly remember an inspection, a visit in hospitals, or medical installations at the front where he did not speak to the nurses alone, at least briefly, and have them tell him their troubles and enjoyments.
Q: Do you remember that Professor Schroeder, Holland or in Belgium, made it possible for non-German nurses to continue nursing?
A: Yes; I saw that.
Q: Where was it?
A: In the Hospital Fraincais — no, in the Hospital St. Jules, in Belgium, in Rotterdam — in the Luftwaffe hospital in Rotterdam. Most of the nurses were the local religious nurses, and German Red Cross nurses were also used.
Q: Professor Schroeder told me that he used these Dutch nurses, and gave them the preferential positions because he was convinced of their efficiency, although German nurses were also there.
A: Yes; I can confirm that. It was rather odd if a Dutch nurse was in charge of a ward, and the superior of the German Red Cross nurse.
Q: But his idea was that the wounded were to be given the best possible care?
A: Yes.
Q: Without distinction of nationality?
A: Yes.
Q: Now I should like to ask you, witness, how do you think Professor Schroeder would have acted if he had heard of anything which he considered immoral or criminal? For example, experiments on human beings which he thought were not right?
A: I am certain that he would have resigned, as painful as that would have been for the medical service of the Luftwaffe.
Q: Don't you think that he would first have had the thing investigated?
A: Yes.
Q: If Professor Schroeder had resigned, how would the Luftwaffe, the medical service, have felt about that?
A: That was the difficulty. There was no appropriate successor. For this reason we repeatedly had to subdue his political escapades so that nothing would happen to him; otherwise we would have had an irreplaceable loss for the medical service of the Luftwaffe. I know the rank list exactly. There was no medical officer, of those who might have succeeded him, who was of his caliber and, in this difficult time in 1944, putting in a new man would have been a terrible solution.
Q: With the experiments for making sea water potable you had no contact yourself?
A: No.
Q: Did you learn anything about it?
A: Yes.
Q: May I ask you what?
A: I was told that the problem of making sea water drinkable was to be attacked, and then I heard that Dr. Schaefer had worked out a procedure and that this was another procedure according to Berker, which was being worked out. I was informed in general about the technical details, in conversation.
Q: If it had been agreed that experiments were to be conducted with human subjects, where do you think they would have been carried out by Professor Schroeder?
A: I know only that one day he talked to the Commanding Officer of the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe. He established contact with him in order to have members of the Academy, that is, young medical students, for these experiments. It was not the first time that some such thing was done at the Academy. If I remember correctly, some years before, an experiment had been conducted with students; that is, with members of the Academy, or the effects of pervitin and, if I remember correctly, students were prevented from sleeping for 70 hours, by pervitin.
Q: Then, Professor Schroeder's efforts would have been to have such experiments carried out in the Luftwaffe's own agencies?
A: Yes; certainly.
Q: It is no doubt your opinion that he would not lightly have considered any other possibility?
A: And for what reason do you think that he would have called on his own institutions first?
Q: The Academy would have been very suitable because of the human material, if I may say so, and I could not see why the experiments should not be carried out there.
Q: Do you know that, in addition to this military medical academy, where was a Luftwaffe hospital which was to be called upon?
A: Yes; in Brunswick.
Q: How do you know that?
A: I can't say any more, but I do know it.
Q: Did Schroeder tell you that himself or did you hear that from some other source?
A: I don't remember, but I only know that something was said about the Luftwaffe hospital in Brunswick.
Q: Would you believe that Professor Schroeder would have let any experiment be carried out without having done everything in his power to make those experiments harmless for the subjects?
A: Yes; I certainly believe so. Nothing else is possible in view of his inner attitude.
Q: What was his attitude toward the SS? Was there any connection perhaps with Himmler?
A: No; certainly not. That was always a rather sore point with him. He did not quite trust him.
A: You might say it was something distasteful to him?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, that is what you can say in general, then?
A: Yes.
DR. MARX: Then I have no further questions.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q: Witness, how long have you know Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A: Since we were with the Medical Inspectorate, although we did study together, but we did not know each other.
Q: Then your acquaintance dates from January 1944?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were with him until the end of the war?
A: Until the 30th of April 1945.
Q: What was the position of Becker-Freyseng when you came to the Medical Inspectorate?
A: He was assistant technical expert in the department for aviation Medicine and under Professor Anthony.
Q: That was changed later?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: I think about the middle of May or about May 1944. Prof. Anthony was deferred for the Medical Polyclinic Rostock.
Q: And he left then?
A: Yes.
Q: Then Becker-Freyseng became his successor?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, you were adjutant long enough and as you said, you, yourself, were a technical expert in the Medical Inspectorate. Will you please, from your point of view, describe the duties and the work of a technical expert?
A: Briefly, he, himself, had to prepare a procedure but he had no right to make a decision. He had to report to his section chief or to the Chief of Staff or to the Medical Chief for this purpose. It was necessary to obtain all the material on paper. The report to the section chief or to higher officers had to be absolutely complete. The matter had to be investigated to the point where one could answer questions and there could be no mistakes and no ignorance.
Q: And you say he prepared this and who decided what was to be done?
A: That depended on how important the matter was. The Section Chiefs had the right to decide but it is obvious that the section chiefs considered what responsibility they could take and what they would have to get from this Chief of Staff for a decision.
Q: Then, either the section chief and in more important cases the Chief of Staff decided all basic questions?
A: Yes.
Q: In this case the Medical referent did not make Medical decisions?
A: No, I had to get used to that. I admit in the beginning I did not find it easy to adjust to this position after having been more before and several times the Medical Chief pointed out to me that I had to keep to this attitude.
Q: Then, yourself experience how little the referent had say?
A: Yes. I had the personnel after me and sometimes, though, there were very unimportant transfers to be carried out —signing them without no risk and no responsibility. Sometimes the section chief might not be there and at the beginning I signed one or other letter but that was very quickly stopped.
Q: Then that was a general principle in the Medical Inspectorate?
A: Not always. I must correct myself. It was the principle, yes, but from Prof. Schroeder a referent never signed.
Q: I think we will come back this matter of the signature later. From your experience in the Medical Inspectorate or as adjutant, you knew the duties of Dr. Becker-Freyseng. I should like to clear up a question which was discussed yesterday, that is, the following: one of the co-defendants has assorted and the prosecution has taken over this assertion that Dr. Becker-Freyseng was the only research adviser of the Medical Chief. I believe you can say something positive about that.
A: I must make a strict distinction between a consulting physician and our work as a technical referent. I should like to give an example.
If the Medical Chief for any reason needed a new special physician then he had me call to his office through the section chief or the Chief of Staff and he said he needed a new special physician for such and such a place. Who might be a candidate? When do you have? The Medical Chief says 'perhaps this man or that man.' I had a different opinion because I had different information. I was able to express my opinion and I did so. I was able to advance him who might be considered from the position. To that extent I was his only or one of the advisors about matters concerning officers but I wasn't a consulting physician.
Q: And you believed that it was the same in the case of Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A: Yes, the same in the case of all of the other doctors. Everyone was able to report his experience in his specialized feild and in this way could advise. To come back to my example; no one can remember everything. I worked on only a small part of the officer's files and the active officers — there were about 550 and the specialists, that was about a thousand. That was 1500 officers which one had to use in some form or other. The referent might possibly be able to remember that of there were 25 referents; the Medical Chief could know about each department only in general outlines.
The details the referent has to remember and report.
Q: Then, if I may sum it up, in technical questions the referent was an advisor. To give an example, if the Medical Chief wanted some question cleared up, for example, the question of high-altitude research, he calls the referent Dr. Becker-Freyseng and he says 'Who might be considered for that?'
A: Yes.
Q: And then Dr. Becker-Freyseng mentioned the specialist and call him and then this specialist conducts the actual specialized research?
A: Yes.
Q: And technical advice on technical things?
A: He had consulting physicians for aviation medicine.
Q: Now, do you know who was the consulting physician for aviation medicine?
A: Yes, that was Prof. Dr. Struckholdt, Prof. Rein and Oberregierungsrat Benzinger.
Q: Then, one might call them the advisors of the Medical Chief for aviation medicine?
A: Yes, that's what they were.
Q: Now, witness, Becker-Freyseng is called the Research Advisor. Can you perhaps tell us who were the actual advisors in other questions in the field of internal medicine, for example?
A: Internal medicine? Prof, Kalk, surgery Prof. Toennies. Then else was there?
Q: Do you know anything about hygiene?
A: Hygiene? Prof. Rose.
Q: Very well, I think that question is settled. Now I will go on to something else. Witness, Dr. Becker-Freyseng is held responsible for all experiments carried out in aviation medicine on the basis of his position in the Luftwaffe from 1941 on. I know, of course, and the Tribunal knows that you were there in the Medical Inspectorate only from 1944 on but you said that Prof. Anthony was still referent at your time and Becker-Freyseng was his assistant for almost six months. Can you say what responsibility Dr. Becker-Freyseng had for this kind of experiments in your opinion as he was Anthony's assistant?
A: As I know Anthony he certainly did not let anyone take too much from him. I can imagine that he gave Dr. Becker-Freyseng certain work deal with but it must be possible to prove that by means of signatures. I don't know whether the files or parts of the files are available.
Q: We will get to the matter of signatures later, witness, but just said you don't believe that Prof. Anthony gave up very much. To be specific now, you know Prof. Anthony and you probably know what he preferred to deal with in the experiments which I have mentioned; they ware primarily high altitude experiments and cold experiments; do you know anything about that?
A: I think that Anthony would not have given up that type of work.
Q: What makes you think that?
A: I can't prove that, but that is my feeling, for this reason, we know, under the former medical inspectorate Hippke, Anthony was able to deal with Hippke directly without going through the section chief and the chief of staff; and I think that he kept everything in his own hands and did not like to give anything up.
Q: Very well. Now, do you know anything about this: did Prof. Anthony, in aviation medicine, have any special field in which he was interested — any hobbies?
A: That is hard to say.
Q: You don't know?
A: No. I don't know.
Q: And you just believe on the basis of your personal impression of these personalities that Anthony probably worked on these questions personally and that he gave Dr. Becker-Freyseng only certain fields.
A: Yes, that is my opinion.
Q: Very well. Now in this connection, concerning Prof. Anthony, I will show you a document; it is in the German Document Book No. 3 first volume, on page 22 and 23. It was submitted as NO 286, Prosecution Exhibit No. 87. I have shown you a photostatic copy; you have it there.
A: Yes.
Q: It is a letter with the heading: The Reich Minister of Aviation and commanding in Chief of the Luftwaffe; it has a file note 55, and number which has no connection here. The letter is addressed to Reich Fuehrer SS; it is dated 8th of October, 1942.
Fitness, will you please look at the signature; can you decipher who certifies the correspondence there; do you know the signature?
A: Yes, that is the signature of Prof. Anthony, the referent for aviation medicine.
Q: Very well; now please look at the signature a little more carefully. It reads: "Draft signed by order;" and under that 'true copy', and 'Anthony' as you just said. Now, can you please explain to the Court what it means if in Luftwaffe correspondence there is such a notation on a letter.
A: Yes. Standing at the top, draft signed by order; if the medical inspector signs, he also signed by order because the heading read the Reich Aviation Minister, etc. Since that is not his own position, he signs "by order". That makes no difference whether it is the inspector or the chief of staff.
Q: Now, it does not mean that there was a special order for this signature but that it was a general authorization for the chief of staff or the medical inspector to sign "by order of the Reich Aviation Ministry."
A: Yes.
Q: And that was Wullen who was the Chief of Staff at that time?
A: Yes, at that tine.
Q: What does it mean if such a letter says, "draft signed, Wullen, and true copy, Anthony"; what does that mean?
A: That means that Prof. Anthony worked out this matter and submitted it to the chief of staff. The chief of staff no doubt approved it in general, but it seems to me that some changes were made here; perhaps he said it is to be prepared as we have it here and then he signed the draft; and then, probably after correcting it, Anthony did not submit it to the chief of staff again. That is why it says draft signed.
Q: That means that the draft of this letter was given by Prof. Anthony to the chief of staff; that he signed the draft; that the letter was copied then; it was not necessary to have it signed again. That the person who had worked out the natter and submitted it, that is to Anthony, had the right to certify this letter.
A: Yes.
Q: That was the general practice?
A: Yes, at that time.
Now witness, just keep the document book; there are some other things in it. I shall go over to another field. You said that as adjutant of the Air Fleet Physician 2 you worked on personnel matters, and in addition from 1944 on you were a referent for officer matters. Then I may assume that you are the right man to tell us about transfers and assignment of medical officers.
A: Yes.
Q: On the basis of this general knowledge, I should like to discuss with you three documents that have been submitted by the Prosecution; you already have the document book. The first one is in the German Document Book, No. 13, on Lost Experiments, on page 24; it was submitted as NO 196; it is Prosecution's Exhibit 261. I shall quote briefly from this document.
The heading reads:
The Reich Fuehrer SS Personal Staff, Field Command Post, 24 August, 1942.
To: Chief of SS Main Office, SS Gruppenfuehrer Berger.
Dear Gruppenfuehrer: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. A. Hirt, Strassburg, who had a great part in the finding of the institute for military scientific research; you are urgently needed in our medical section. Oberzrst Karl Wimmer is at present on this medical section seven to work at the Anatomischen Institute at the University of Strassburg.
The rest of the letter does not interest us; only the signature. SS- Obersturmfuehrer — it is to be assumed that that is Rudolf Brandt, the defendant.
A: Let me correct one thing. This is the Luftwaffe Medical Training Section.
Q: Yes. The second letter I want to discuss with you us in Document Book No. 13, on page 30; it is submitted by the Prosecution as NO 193, Exhibit No.264. I shall quote from this too. First the heading:
Das Ahnenerbe, the Reich Business Manager, Berlin-Dahle.22.4.43, Secret;
To: SS Obersturmbannfuehr Rudolf Brandt, Personal Staff Reich Fuehrer SS, Berlin SW 11
Subject: Dr. Med. Habil Karl Himmer Stabsarzt der Luftwaffe, commandad by Luftgauarzt Muenchen, physician, for service with the Anatomischen Institute of the University of Strassburg.
Dear Comrade Brandt: Effectively immediately Dr. Wimmer has been transferred to the XX Air Corps; according to information given by Mitteilung in Berlin.
The rest of the letter is of no interest. Now, I should like to ask you this question on the basis of your knowledge of matters concerning officers — can you say whether the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaffe was informed of this service of Dr. Wimmer to the Institute in Strasburg, or whether this assignment was ordered by the medical inspectorate?
A: That happened in 1942? for that reason I can answer only on the basis of my general knowledge. Luftgausanitaetsbteilung 7 can transfer a physician under his command from one point to another. There was no difficulty in that, transferring a physician to Strasburg.
Q: Strasburg was under Luftgau 7, wasn't it?
A: Yes. That is something which the medical inspectorate no doubt never learned about. It is possible that the Air Fleet Physician, I think it was Zenter at that time, has information about that; probably nobody else.
Q: Then the medical inspectorate probably didn't learn about that?
A: No.
Q: That is, from the first letter; what would you conclude from the second letter that he is to be transferred effective immediately; what does that mean? Let me put it like this. Who had to order this transfer?
A: The personnel office.
Q: Then, the Reich Aviation Ministry?
A: Yes.
Q: And can we assume that a transfer of a medical officer from such a detail would have taken place suddenly if the Reich Aviation Ministry had know about it?
A: No, I wouldn't think so. One must conclude that the personnel office transferred him, without reporting to the inspectorate; out, that is not necessary. There were about seven thousand medical officers in the Luftwaffe.
Q: Then you conclude the medical inspectorate know about the transfer to Strasburg?
A: Yes, that is my conclusion.
Q: Now, Witness, another document with a similar effect. You have it, too. It is again in Book XIII on page 33, Document NO-195, Exhibit 266.
It reads:
The Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff, Field Command Post, 9 July 1943. Top Secret.
It is addressed to the Personal Referent of the Reich Marshal, Ministerial Counselor, Dr. Goerner.
Dear Party Member Goerner: Referring to our telephone conversation of the 3rd of June 1943, I request your support for a very quick re-transfer of Stabsarzt Dr. Med, Habil Karl Wimmer, who was transferred to the Eleventh Air Corps from the Luftgau Medical Training Department 7 to the Anatomical Institute of the University of Strassburg.
The letter is signed SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Brandt. In view of the question just discussed, what do you conclude from this document, witness?
A: I must conclude that here again this took place without the knowledge of the Inspectorate. If the Inspectorate had participated in this action, one telephone conversation would have been sufficient to have the case managed as desired and all these letters — I have seen three letters about Dr. Wimmer already — all these letters would not have been necessary.
Q: Then you say, if the Medical Inspectorate had ordered this transfer to Strasburg, then a telephone call to the Anatomical Institute would have been enough? All this —
A: Yes.
Q: — correspondence would not have been necessary?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: So that we can say with considerable certainty that this assignment was given without the knowledge of the Medical Inspectorate and according to the document was instigated by Luftgau Physician 7 in Munich?
A: Yes, that is my assumption.
Q: Now, witness, in the discussion of cold experiments yesterday Professor Holzloehner played a special role. You, no doubt, know the name?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was said that in 1940 Professor Holzloehner had a sea rescue station at the Channel coast. Do you know anything about that?
A: Yes.
Q: Very well, and it was said that the purpose of this station was to rescue fliers who had crashed in the Channel, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, can you say briefly how this station was organized and say what observation opportunities they had?
A: Yes. The rescue station was at Vissant near Cap Gris Nez. From there one could see a large part of the Channel. That was why the station was put there in order to be able to rescue quickly because crashes of planes could actually be seen. That is why this station was set up there.
Q: And did this rescue station have the opportunity or the possibility of rescuing those fliers immediately?
A: Yes.
Q: What facilities did they have?
A: They had a motor cutter.
Q: And this boat was ready to start out when the planes went over?
A: Yes.
Q: Then in favorable cases between the time of the crash and rescue there might be only a few minutes, a quarter of an hour perhaps?
A: But that is exaggerated. One has to get there first. The Channel is thirty-one kilometers wide.
Q: Yes, I know, witness. I am speaking of especially favorable cases.
A: Yes.
Q: Then you say these rescue stations had such facilities, that there was only a short time between the crash and the rescue?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, do you know how long Professor Holzloehner was there?
A: No, I don't know that.
Q: Do you know whether this rescue station had carried out frequent rescues?
A: There were eight or twelve persons rescued.
Q: During your time?
A: Yes, During my time.
Q: And Holzloehner remained there later?
A: That I cannot say. I do not know.
Q: But you will be able to say this: Professor Holzloehner gained great experience with the treatment of cold?
A: Yes, one must admit that.
Q: And Schroeder knew that, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Schroeder was there with you once? Was he ever there?
A: Not with me. I know this station independently.
Q: But you know that Schroeder was there?
A: Yes.
DR. TIPP: I have no further questions.
DR. KRAUSS: Dr. Krauss for the defendant Professor Rostock. Mr. President, I ask permission to ask a single question for your orientation and to avoid misunderstandings.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q: There is a German university city with the name "Rostock". Witness, if you testified that Professor Anthony was deferred for the Medical Polyclinic Rostock, then you meant, did you not, the medical polyclinic at the University of Rostock?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: Not the clinic of Professor Rostock?
A: No. It was the Medical university clinic of the city of Rostock.
DR. KRAUSS: I thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions of this witness by the defense counsel? There being none, the prosecution may cross-examine.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, I have no questions to put to this Witness for cross-examination.
DR. MARX: I have no further questions to the witness Augustinick.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I now have another witness, but before I begin with the fitness Witt, I might suggest a recess so that I do not have to cut the examination in two.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.