1947-02-28, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours.)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, as for the statement of Prelate Dr. Kreutz, I should like to withdraw it. The affidavit of Pastor Frick and of Ernst Lutze has confirmed these facts sufficiently.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course, if counsel procures the affidavit in another form, it may be offered later.

DR. MARX: Very well, I understand, Mr. President. I shall take the liberty if it is possible to offer the document later.

The following documents from 3 to 9 are affidavits of a number of scientists, of well-known scientists, with whom the defendant Schroeder worked for years. They testified to professor Schroeder's attitude toward the medical profession, science, and research, and in addition gave information about his attitude as a human being and his attitude toward the party.

I shall take the liberty of reading from the affidavit of Professor H. Buerkly De La Camp. This is on page 12 of the document book and it says on page 1, at the very bottom, the first paragraph:

1. Mr. Schroeder had a very high conception of the profession of physician. He was one of the few high-ranking medical officers who were not only administrative officials of the medical service and superior officers, but who kept the standard of the medical profession high and who had remained physicians. I never again during the whole war met another high ranking active medical officer who had such a deep and thorough understanding as Mr. Schroeder, although I came in contact with a very great number of these high-ranking medical officers.

I shall omit the last part but the next paragraph reads:

I should like to stress especially, as regards the treatment of wounded prisoners of war, he always judged from the physician's point of view and always did everything and had everything done that was within his reach and that was possible in order to help the wounded prisoners.

The hospitals within the jurisdiction of Airfleet 2 were exemplary. Mr. Schroeder's visits to hospitals were always welcomed by the physicians because he inspected the hospitals, their installations, and work as a physician and not as a superior officer.

And then I should like to speak of the political attitude of Mr. Schroeder as this witness sees it. It says that he had nothing to do with national socialism or any outgrowth of national socialism.

I offer this affidavit as Exhibit — I offered the Lutze affidavit as Exhibit No. 2 and Buerkle De La Camp affidavit as Exhibit No. 3. I ask that both exhibits be admitted.

The following affidavit of Professor Dr. Huenermann I offer in evidence and I would give it exhibit No. 4. I ask that this exhibit be admitted in evidence.

MR. HARDY: This Document No. 5 is similar to Exhibit No. 2, which does not contain any jurat as prescribed by the rules and regulations of the Tribunal, and, therefore, I object to the submission of this document in evidence.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, unfortunately, it was not added in the document that the Huenermann affidavit was certified by a notary at Dusseldorf.

MR. HARDY: I will withdraw my objection.

DR. MARX: The next affidavit is an affidavit of Professor Dr. H. Siegmund, Director of the Pathological Institute in Muenster, Westphalia. He is a Professor at the University of Muenster. This affidavit also deals with Schroeder's attitude toward the medical profession and the medical ethics. I offer this affidavit as Exhibit No. 5.

THE PRESIDENT: That is Document No. 6?

DR. MARX: Yes, in my document book it is No. 6. It will be given exhibit number 5, because one affidavit was left out of this statement, being Dr. Kreutz.

The next affidavit is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Strughold.

Mr. President, this Professor Strughold is a man who worked with Professor Schroeder for many years. Professor Strughold was in the United States for many years. He knows the American Universities from New England to the Middle West and now again he is working in a high position at the American Aviation Medical Institute at Heidelberg. He will be called to the United States again. I think that this affidavit has particular importance since Professor Strughold is well known for his reserve in judging other people and I believe that his words should be given special weight, because of his international reputation.

I merely offer this affidavit in Evidence as No. 6, Exhibit No. 6.

The next document is an affidavit by Professor Dr. Weski. Processor Dr. Weski lives in Berlin. He has also testified to his knowledge of the character and professional attitude of Dr. Schroeder. I offer this affidavit in evidence as Exhibit No. 7.

The next exhibit is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Wilhelm Toennis, Director of Miners' Union Hospital and Chief Physician of the surgical department. I merely offer this affidavit. I shall not read it. But, on page 2 under 3(b) I should like to read something. It says:

Attitude towards the wounded and sick:

In his care for the wounded and sick; Professor Schroeder continuously tried to get the best specialists for the hospitals and to assist them as much as he could in their work as well as with their equipment. He himself took every occasion to assist at operations, inform himself about the methods of treatment and their results, and to convince himself of the truth of the statements.

This would be Exhibit 8. I ask that it be admitted under this number.

The next exhibit is an affidavit of the University Professor Erwin Gohrbandt in Berlin, Medical Director of the Robert Koch Hospital. From this document I should like to read only paragraph 2 on page 2. It says:

Regarding Professor Schroeder's attitude toward the wounded and the sick, I wish to state the following: Professor Schroeder always used every endeavor to supply model billets and a model treatment of the wounded and sick. I often accompanied him on his hospital inspections. Everywhere whenever possible — he assisted, made improvements etc. so that I hardly know another physician who took greater care of the wounded and sick than Professor Schroeder. He always insisted upon the same treatment for the wounded of other nations as that for the German wounded.

Further down it says:

Professor Schroeder had no connections with the NSDAP nor did he entertain any. On the contrary, to me he frequently remarked that he declined to be drawn into this and often criticized the movement. As far as I know. Professor Schroeder neither belonged to the NSDAP nor to any of the affiliated organizations.

/s/ Professor Erwin Gohrbandt

I ask that this exhibit be admitted as Schroeder Exhibit 9. Now I come to the next document.

This is an affidavit of Frau Louise von Oertzen. She has known Professor Schroeder since 1937. She met him at the international hospital congress in Paris. She says:

In my capacity as Generaloberin of the German Red Cross, Dr. Schroeder won my esteem through his ardent care for the work of the German and the International Red Cross and the welfare of its patients. I repeatedly inspected field hospitals together with him and noticed that he never treated the patients as a military superior but as a warmhearted and understanding physician. His attitude towards the nurses was likewise respectful and considerate.

I merely offer the rest of the document. I shall not read it. I offer it as Exhibit 10.

Now I come to Exhibit 11. This is an affidavit of Karin Huppertz.

MR. HARDY: May it please your Honors, this exhibit is not in the proper form hence I object to its admission in evidence as it does not comply with regulations set forth by the Tribunal. It has no jurat at all. It has no preamble — nothing that bears semblance of a proper affidavit.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, this is an affidavit which is offered only provisionally. Karin Huppertz was approached as a witness for the defendant but she has not been able to get here yet. For that reason I wanted to ask to be allowed to call her as a witness later if she should come. This statement of Karin Huppertz was given before an American officer, Captain Mahoney.

THE PRESIDENT: No such certificate is shown in the English Document Book.

MR. HARDY: You are correct, your Honor. No certificate is shown but in as much as it has a jurat by an American officer I withdraw my objection, I will allow the document to be entered.

DR. MARX: I give this Exhibit #11. Now I come to the next document. That is an affidavit of Mrs. Hanna Reitsch, Flight Captain, of the 22 of December 1946. This affidavit, as well as the next one of Frau Marie Finner, concerns the human aspect of Professor Schroeder.

I merely offer these two exhibits, the Reitsch affidavit as Exhibit 12 and the Piner affidavit as Exhibit 13. From the affidavit of Frau Piner I should like to read something. At the end, the last paragraph here, she says:

From 2 October 1943 to 30 August 1944, court martial proceedings were instituted against me, on a denunciation by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Hoefle for undermining of military morale. During these proceedings Prof. Dr. Schroeder defended me warmly and he also succeeded in having the proceedings against me discontinued, and no sentence was passed although the remarks made by me were proved.

Now I come to the next document. This is an affidavit of the architect Heinrich Hillmer in Hamburg. He is the head of the studio of the late architect Herman Distel. This goes into the activity of Professor Schroeder in connection with the construction of hospitals and shows how ardently he supported the building of hospitals in Berlin. I offer this as Schroeder Exhibit # 14.

Now I come to the next exhibit. It was the heading "Hepatitis". It is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Heinrich Kalk in Berlin, 17 January 1947. I would like to read all of this affidavit. It is not very long and is no doubt necessary for clarification.

I have known Professor Dr. Oscar Schroeder, former Chief physician general (Generaloberstabsarzt) of the German Luftwaffe, for about 12 years, through my medical activities, and through scientific connections. Dr. Schroeder was my military superior, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, during the war, since 1944. I, myself, was employed with the medical inspectorate of the medical service as a consulting specialist for internal diseases attached to the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaffe from the beginning of the war.

Regarding the question of alleged Experiments of infection of hepatitis epidemica of humans, I declare the following:

1. Neither Professor Schroeder, nor any other Branch of the medical service of the Luftwaffe, ever gave me any order to carry out experiments on human with hepatitis infection, and I never made such experiments.

2. I never approached Professor Schroeder with the demand, to carry out experiments on humans with hepatitis infection.

3. It was my task, within the frame work of the activity of a consulting specialist for internal diseases, to care for medical treatment of and clinical research on soldiers suffering from hepatitis, taken to Luftwaffe hospitals, especially at the Luftwaffe hospitals at Greifswald and at Bucharest. In order to carry out this task, I approached hygienists and pathologists, for the purpose of working on competent special problems without, however, exceeding the limits of my activity by experiments with infection of humans.

For the purpose of research on hepatitis, I worked together with Professor Dr. Duechner, chief of the pathologic institute at the Freiburg University, with Professor Dr. Herzberg, chief of the hygiene institute at the Greifswald university, and with Professor Dr. Haagen, chief of the hygienic institute at the Strassburg university.

This affidavit will be Schroeder Exhibit 15.

Now, I come to the affidavit of Professor Dr. H. F. Bock, pages 56 and 57 in my document book. Professor Bock is the chief physician at the Medical University Clinic at Tuebingen. I now offer this exhibit as Schroeder Exhibit No. 16.

The next exhibit is on page 58 to 60 in my document book. It is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Franz Buechner, Professor of Pathology and Director of the Pathologic Institute of the University of Freiburg of 9 January 1947. This is a very short document. With the permission of the Tribunal I shall read all of it:

I was neither a member of the party nor of its organizations. From my speech made in November of 1941 about the 'Oath of Hippocrates', which has since been published, my general attitude may be judged. For political reasons and also because of this speech, my call to Frankfurt/Main in the spring of 1942 and to Berlin in the fall of 1942, was rejected. In November, 1943, the SD at Freiburg demanded my immediate dismissal from office.

Regarding the case:

My cooperation with Professor Dr. Haagen consisted in the microscopical examination of his experimental animals.

Nothing was known to me of an intention of Professor Haagen or of an order to him to perform any experiments on human subjects, within the framework of his experiments. I never received a letter of the kind directed by Professor Haagen to Professor Kalk (27 June 1944), much less any corresponding letter from Professor Dr. Schroeder or Dr. Becker-Freyseng or any other export specialist, with the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. Nor do I know whether within the framework of the research order any experiments on human subjects, in particular enforced human experiments have been performed at any time by Professor Haagen.

I ask that this affidavit be admitted as Schroeder Exhibit 17.

The next document is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Zuckschwerdt of 21 January 1947. Professor Dr. Zuckschwerdt has the following to say:

The Institute for medical research at Strassbourg was, as a part of the university, subordinate to the Dean of the medical faculty. The Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe had nothing to do with this institute. The task of the institute was research in clinical problems, to carry out which special experts and chemical and physics installations were required.

The next paragraph says:

As a surgeon I know of Professor Haagen's research work on hepatitis epidemica only insofar as he requested me to supply him with material for experiments, especially nasal smears, pharyngeal smears, gastric analysis, etc. of that small number of surgical patients, who were in my clinic (for instance 'appelicitis') and hepatitis. I never learned of 'jaundice-experiments on humans,' that is, the carrying out of artificial infection of hepatitis of healthy persons. Nor did I ever learn of any such command or order by any one in this respect.

I offer this exhibit as Schroeder Exhibit No. 18. Now I come to the subject of typhus.

First, there is an excerpt from the Diary of Dr. Ding — entry of the 17th of march 1942. An entry from the 8th of March. Document 265 of the Prosecution. On page 1331 of the German transcript the Prosecution concluded the responsibility of the defendant Schroeder in these experiments from the last entry by saying that the defendant Professor Rose was under the command of the defendant Schroeder at the time. From the entry in Dr. Ding's Diary of 17 March 1942, however, one can see that Professor Rose was section chief of the Institute Robert Koch in this capacity and not as a medical officer of the Luftwaffe.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that exhibit in written form? It does not seem to be contained in your document book — in the English document book.

DR. MARX: That is in the German transcript. That is on Page 36 — Document Book No. 12. That was not translated, I am sorry, Mr. President, because it is a Prosecution document. It is Document 287 — Document Book 12 — Document 287.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, is the portion of the exhibit to which you just referred — did you read from the Prosecution exhibit that portion of it — of the exhibit?

DR. MARX: Yes, that is Prosecution exhibit 287. Probably that is why it is not translated because the English text is already before the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: My question was whether you read from that Prosecution exhibit?

DR. MARX: No, Mr. President, I did not read the Prosecution exhibit.

MR. HARDY: If it please Your Honor, I think it is most unusual for Dr. Marx to have these go in as exhibits and give them a number. He brought all these questions up to the defendant Schroeder when he was on the stand —

THE PRESIDENT: (interrupting) I did not understand that Counsel for Schroeder had offered those as his own exhibits.

MR. HARDY: He has them marked as exhibits in the document book index and I was wondering if he was going to continue to follow that course.

THE PRESIDENT: They are not contained in our English document book.

MR. HARDY: They are in the index and he has given some argument in the index. He says: "Exhibit 20 — referring to the Ding Diary."

JUDGE SEBRING: I think this might be done, Mr. Hardy. Did you offer the entire Ding Diary?

MR. HARDY: We certainly did, Your Honor.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, I'm commenting on oral statements of the Prosecution in the German transcript, Page 1331 in the German transcript. May I read this passage?

Excerpt from the Diary of the section for typhus and virus research at the Institute of Hygiene of the Waffen SS, 17 March 1942:

Visit of Professor Gildemeister and Professor Rose, Section Chief for Tropical Medicine at the Robert Koch Institute, at the experimental station. All experimental subjects have contracted typhus except for two, where it could be ascertained later that they had already had typhus during an epidemic when they were in the police prison in Berlin. SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ding contracted typhus and is in the hospital in Berlin. SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Hoven, post physician of the Waffen SS in Weimar, is, in the meantime, taking care of the stations at Blocks 44 and 49.

Then the further entry: 8th of March to 13th of March — "typhus experiments by initiation of Professor Rose." That does not apply here because we went to prove that in this matter Professor Rose was acting as section chief for tropical medicine at the Robert Koch Institute and not as a medical officer of the Luftwaffe. I offer this as Exhibit 19.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me understand, Counsel, just what you are offering as Exhibit 19. A portion of the Ding Diary which is already in evidence?

DR. MARX: Yes. That is an excerpt from the Prosecution document book, Document 265. In the German document book 12 on page 36.

THE PRESIDENT: The Ding Diary, being already in evidence, including the portion to which Counsel is now referring, it is not necessary — indeed, it is improper to offer that in evidence again. It will be available to Counsel to use in argument, whether by way of brief or oral argument or any reference which Counsel desires to make to it, but it is not properly offered in evidence a second time.

MR. HARDY: I submit, Your Honor, that Counsel has the same thought in mind in connection with several other documents, and I think we might dispense with going through this procedure again.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, I withdraw this document. Then I come to the subject of sea-water experiments and I submit an affidavit from the pediatrician, Dr. Ludwig Harrenhausen, who is at present in Marsburg, of the 9 of January 1947, and also an affidavit from Generalstabsarzt Dr. Friedrich Schmidt.

THE PRESIDENT: The first affidavit to which counsel referred is not in our English document book; the second affidavit, by Friedrich Schmidt is so included, but the first is not.

DR. MARX: I cannot understand that, Mr. President. It was turned in for translation as far as I know. I ask to reserve the right —

THE PRESIDENT: The omission may be supplied and the affidavit offered but the next affidavit in the English document book is on page 72, that page following page 61, the other pages being omitted, and this is numbered Schroeder Exhibit #25; we have that

DR. MARX: This is an affidavit of the former Generalstabsarzt Dr. Friedrich Schmidt. As the Tribunal will remember, the Defendant Schroeder pointed out that Dr. Schmidt was commander of the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe at the time — and that he went to Dr. Schmidt to get experimental subjects from the students there. I shall read the paragraph which concerns this subject:

I know officially that at the beginning of the summer term 1944, the office of the Chief of the Medical Services sent me an inquiry whether students of the Academy could be used as volunteers for sea water experiments. I do not remember details of this inquiry, in particular I do not recall the date and whether this inquiry was made orally or by telephone. This request had to be denied, as studies could not be interrupted during the term and as at the beginning of the university vacations the only students who were not required to do practical work in military or general hospitals (compulsory service for assistants), ordered to attend the officers' training school, or to work for their examination, had to be drafted to medical service at the front in accordance with the Academy's training schedule.

If it had not been for these difficulties regarding time, I would have had no objections to have my ensigns take part in the experiments as volunteers. I never heard anything more about the experiments and their execution. Before the end of the university vacations in the fall of 1944, all students of the Academy, except those who were preparing for their examination, joined the Medical Service in the field on account of developments at the Western front.

/s/ Dr. Schmidt, General Stabsarzt.

I offer this as Schroeder Exhibit 19.

The next exhibit is a report of Professor Kalk, of the 13th of March 1945, about hepatitis research.

MR. HARDY: Obviously, this next exhibit purports to be a German document, a report dated 13 March 1945. Throughout the presentation of this case on the part of the Prosecution, we have in every instance submitted with the German document a certificate stating that this is an original German document and setting forth were the document was obtained; and it has been the procedure thus far that any submission of any documentary evidence, captured documents or otherwise, to contain or should have attached thereto such certificates in order to be admitted before this Tribunal. Now this obviously is a report by Professor Kalk and has no substantiation whatsoever. Therefore I object to the a mission of this document at this time.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, I should like permission to submit the original report later if there are objections to the admissibility now; then I shall dispense with offering it at the present time if I may have the opportunity of doing so later.

THE PRESIDENT: The objection on the part of the Prosecution is well taken but counsel for the Defendant Schroeder may offer the document later with the proper description, where it came from, where it was found, etc., authenticating the document, which should be offered to the Prosecution so that it may be studied in advance. Then when it is offered to the Tribunal, the Tribunal will consider any arguments that are made by either side and rule on the admission or non-admissibility of the document.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, I have a statement from a number of high German medical officers, officers of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, who are in a prisoner-of-war camp at the present time but who have all declared themselves willing to subject themselves to such sea-water experiments as were conducted at one time in the Camp Dachau. These gentlemen have declared themselves willing to do this because they have confidence in Professor Schroeder. I cannot submit this document today, however, because it is not in the proper form. I have just been informed that it is not translated. I ask to reserve the right to submit this affidavit later, when it has been translated.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may submit the document to the Tribunal at some later date. When all these documents which are not now in condition to be offered to the Tribunal are ready, if counsel will advice the Tribunal, the Tribunal will fix a time when these documents may be offered, after notice to the Prosecution.

DR. MARX: Thank you. Mr. President, I have concluded the submission of documents and thus I have finished the case for the defense of the Defendant Schroeder.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal notes that the counsel for Defendant Schroeder has closed his case, with the reservation that the documents to which he referred may be offered at some later time.

I will hand to the Secretary General the original document that was submitted to the Tribunal this morning.

DR. RUDOLF MERKEL: I am counsel for the Defendant Dr. Karl Genzken.

THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.

DR. MERKEL: With the permission of the Tribunal, I call the Defendant Genzken to the witness stand.

THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Karl Genzken will take the witness stand.

KARL GENZKEN, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:

JUDGE SEBRING: The defendant will raise his right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

JUDGE SEBRING: You may sit down.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY DR. MERKEL:

Q: Witness, when and were you born?

A: On the 8th of June 1885, in Preetz, in Holstein. I attended the gymnasium (high school) in Kiel and then the Gymnasium in Wandsbeck and in 1906 I graduated there. Then I studied medicine, first in Tuebingen, in the first semester I served for 1 year as a volunteer musketeer; then in Marburg in 1908 I took my physical examination and then I studied in Munich and in Kiel. In 1911 I took my State examination and shortly after that the doctor's examination. I was an intern at Plauen at the city hospital under Professor Vogtland as a surgeon and under Professor Wandel as Professor of internal medicine. With the permission of the ministry I interrupted my year as an intern for 3 months and took part in a commercial expedition to Spanish Morocco. Then after my year as an intern in August 1912 I became active in the Navy. Until the war I was Flotilla physician of a torpedo boat flotilla, an assistant physician on a ship of the Line. In the spring of 1914 I went to our colony Tsingtau in East Asia and I was there when the first world war broke out. I participated in the campaign at Tsingtau against Japan. In 1915 I returned home by way of Honolulu and America. Then I was a ship physician on a cruiser. I participated in the Battle of Skagerac.

The Commander of the submarines was on board our ship. I was a physician on his staff at the same time. From 1915 until 1917 I helped organize the Medical Service on submarines.

Q: What did you do after the first World War?

A: By the last of the War I was forced to look for a new method of livelihood. I settled down in my home town as a practicing physician, and I practiced for 15 years. Then for health reasons I had to look for a new position as an official doctor, and from inclination and love for my own profession of medical officer, I returned to the Navy. As a reserve officer I entered the Naval Medical Department in the Reich Ministry.

Q: What Ministry was that?

A: It was the Reichswehr Ministry, the Reich Defense Ministry. It was not possible to be reactivated here, therefore in 1936 I reported to the Waffen SS.

Q: When did you join the NSDAP?

A: In 1926.

Q: Did you ever have any function in the Party?

A: No, I have no function in the Party.

Q: Why did you join the NSDAP?

A: There were primarily social reasons which moved me at the time. After the first World War had been lost and the economic crimes of the inflation, I saw German youth on the streets unemployed. The program of the Party provided for alleviation of these conditions by productive unemployment compensation. I had to see the peasants forced out of their farms. The program of the Party provided for alleviation through a law to pay off the debts of the farmers, and the farmers were also to be protected by the law regarding inheriting farms. Another reason which motivated me was as a layman I was influenced by the idea that the achievement is to be the basis of evaluation of the National Economy.

Q: You have already said in 1936 you joined the SS, is that true?

A: Yes, I joined with the rank of Oberstabsarzt. That would be the rank of Major in the American Army. In the SS it was equivalent to a Sturmbannfuehrer.

Q: What was your last rank in the SS?

A: I was SS Gruppenfuehrer.

Q: After you had a good medical practice for 15 years why did you give up this profession and join the Party or rather the SS?

A: I have already said that there were reasons of health which motivated me to look for another profession, and that I had the inclination to the class of a medical officer.

Q: What was your position in the SS?

A: I was a referent in the SS medical Office, under SS Oberfuehrer Grawitz. Later I became Section Chief in this medical office. The supply of personnel and materials also went through my medical office for concentration camps, from 1937 until the beginning of the War in 1939.

Q: And what did you do after the beginning of the War?

A: At the beginning of the War I helped to set up a division. In my capacity as divisional physician I set up a medical section for this armored division. In 1940, in April, I was called back from the Western Front and then I became the head of the SS Medical Office or the Waffen SS, and information of the SS Hauptaemter SS main Office. This medical office had been set up at the same time. My medical office was added to the SS main office, the SS Hauptamt VII.

Q: And you held this position until the last?

A: I held the position until the end of the War.

Q: The Prosecution alleges from September 1939 until April 1945 you formed a conspiracy with the other defendants to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. In this connection I ask you to answer the following questions: Do you know all of the other 22 co-defendants personally, and did you meet with them frequently?

A: I know only half of the 22 defendants. The other half I met here in prison.

Q: Then you know eleven?

A: Yes.

Q: Who are they?

A: Sievers, Rose, Ruff, Brack, Romberg, Becker-Freyseng, Weltz, Schaefer, Bieglbock, Pokorny, and Roven. Those I met here in the prison.

Q: And you knew the name of the defendant Hoven, didn't you? What did you know about him?

A: Well, I had heard that he was a physician at the Concentration Camp Buchenwald and the other eleven I had known them personally before.

Q: With which of them did you have official discussions and in what field?

A: I was at Professor Brandt's office on Ziegelstrasse once. The reason was that I was to discuss with him the appointment of Wehrmacht and civilian sector doctors to the Waffen SS. Then I talked to the defendant Rudolph Brandt once briefly in his office on some matter and correspondence, and Professor Handloser I talked to him personally three times in his office. The subject was the transfer of the doctors from the Wehrmacht of the Army to the Waffen SS, and another time we discussed the decontamination companies and the third discussion with Professor Handloser was in my office. He came to see me in order to inquire about the SS physician who was to be appointed to his section as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, but the Reichsfuehrer Himmler did not approve this. Then as Medical Chief of the Waffen SS I was called to two discussions with Professor Handloser as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service where the other medical inspectors of the various branches of the Wehrmacht were also present. First it was a question of the distribution of medical students. The Luftwaffe had to give us several hundred medical students and the other time it was a question of the spiritual care for hospital patients.

Q: And what did you discuss with Professor Schroeder?

A: I had no personal or official talks with Professor Schroeder. I merely met him at these discussions with Professor Handloser which I have just mentioned.

Q: Then how about Professor Gebhardt, Professor Mrugowsky and Dr. Poppendick?

A: I met Gebhardt in peacetime as chief of the Hohenlychen Sanatorium which was a world famous specialized clinic for sport and accident surgery in peacetime. At the beginning of the war Professor Gebhardt came to the Waffen SS and was in a special confidential relationship as physician with Himmler since he had been a friend of the Reich Fuehrer in his youth.

During the whole war he was active as surgical adviser at the main focal points of wounded. Since he was at the front most of the time and worked as a surgeon there, and the rest of the time he was busy at Hohenlychen, he came to my office very rarely and he reported to me about his surgical experiences at the front. At the same time he was surgical adviser to the Organization Todt and in the "Volksdeutsche Mittlesteele", the racial German agency. From August 1943 on, on the occasion of the reorganization of the SS medical service, Professor Gebhardt as chief clinician entered the office of the Reich Physician SS and Police. I did not participate in any conference with him, the subject of which might have been to undertake experiments on living human beings.

Q: How about Professor Mrugowsky?

A: I met Professor Mrugowsky before the war in 1937 when he came to us as the first active hygienist, and in peacetime he established a hygiene laboratory in Berlin. In the war he was first a medical company chief. He was in the campaign in the West. Then he returned from there and in 1940 he became chief of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS which was developed from the hygiene laboratory when the Waffen SS was created. He was at the same time the head of the hygienic service in my office, the office chief in my office, and until August 1943 at the time of the reorganization of the medical service which I have already mentioned, he was under my command.

After this time he entered the office of the Reich Physician SS and Police with his hygiene institute, but for budget purposes he retained the name Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. During his activity in my office he had the usual tasks of a hygienist for troops at the front and at home. Outside of my office with his institute he had hygienic, scientific duties of the Reich Physician and he was the senior specialist.

I did not participate in any conference with him either, the subject of which was scientific experiments on human beings.

A: And Dr. Poppendick?

A: During the war and before that, Dr. Poppendick was directing physician of the Race and Settlement Office and he was also an associate with the Reich Physician SS. In August 1943, at this time which I have mentioned, he was given the title Chief of the Personnel Office in the office of the Reich physician. I met him rather seldom. I talked to him rather seldom on official business since the Reich Physician, Dr. Grawitz, usually received me alone. I did not participate with him in any conference concerning experiments or research on living human beings.

Q: You have said that with these three physicians you never planned, ordered or carried out experiments on human beings and never discussed this?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever discuss this with any of the other defendants?

A: No.

Q: Did you yourself ever plan, order or carry out such experiments?

A: No.

Q: In what scientific medical meetings or lectures did you participate during the war?

A: I attended two congresses of consulting medical officers, once in 1942 in Berlin, and once in 1944 in Hohenlychen. I heard other lectures in the medical society in Berlin, about four to six a year, and then the Reich Physician in his office in 1942 had a few lectures.

I remember the following subjects: a lecture of a corps physician who came from the front and reported on his experiences at the front concerning the transport and treatment of wounded.

Another lecture was given by a member of the SS main office concerning recruiting. The directing physician of the racial German agency held a lecture about the medical service with the German settlers.

Then there was another lecture by a Professor Hauer in Berlin who told of his experiences as a physician in the first world war in Africa. Then another time the physician of the National Political Training Institutions told of his experiences in the medical service with the students of the institution. Then the Reich Physician also organized two lectures in the police state hospital in Berlin, the purpose of which was to have the police and SS doctors both together. The subjects were ballistics and a smashing of bones. And another time it was on hereditary biology and the study of twins, and there were corresponding lectures in the SS hospital in Berlin, once about x-ray science of the stomach and the intestinal tract, and another time about the autopsy findings of the SS hospital in Prague.

Then, in the Ministry of the Interior at the invitation of the Reich Health Leader Conti, I attended two lectures organized by the health leaders of Italy and Finland about the health systems in their countries.

Q: That is a complete list of the lectures which you attended during the war?

A: The ones that I can remember, yes.

Q: Did you attend any medical lecture of discussion concerning the ordering or execution of experiments on concentration camp inmates with which you are charged by the prosecution?

A: No.

Q: Were there direct connections between your office and the office of General or Reich Commissioner Professor Brandt?

A: No.

Q: Is it true that in 1942 Grawitz ordered that you were not to contact Brandt, Conti, or SS men, office chiefs, without his approval?

A: Yes, that is true.

Q: Is it true that you heard in conversation with Grawitz of a statement of Himmler that Professor Brandt should not interfere in the medical service of the SS?

A: Yes, I heard that statement from Grawitz.

Q: To whom were the Waffen SS divisions at the front, assigned to the Army — to whom were they subordinated as far as the medical service is concerned?

A: Our divisional doctors at the front were under the corps army or army group physicians of the Army, and they were under the Army Medical Inspectorate or the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.

Q: And the troops at home?

A: They were under the medical office of the Waffen SS.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.

(Recess was taken.)