1947-03-03, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 3 March 1947.)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. the Tribunal is again in session.

KARL GENZKEN) — Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Dr. Genzken, in May 1940 you were appointed Chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS, that is Office No. 7, is that correct?

A: It must have been in June. In June the Waffen SS was established and also the SS Administrative Main Office and during this period of time the Medical Office of the Waffen SS became a branch of the Medical Office of the SS and it was administered by the SS Medical Office. This was in June 1940.

Q: Then when were you appointed Chief of Medical Service of the Waffen SS, that is, what is considered to be Amtsgruppe D?

A: Amtsgruppe D was established later. In the SS Administrative Main Office, 4 office groups were compiled from the various offices and afterwards this was dropped for the first three Amtsgruppen and inspectorates were established instead. In my office one Amtsgruppe remained in existence and consisted of 4 offices, the first office was for medical service, the second for dental service, the third for the pharmaceutical service and the fourth for the hygienic service.

Q: Well, now, what was Amt 13?

A: Amt 13 was the medical service.

Q: Who headed this office?

A: It was directed by various men. In the beginning Dr. Fehrensen was in charge and he was killed at the end of the war. He was succeeded by Dr. Berndt and in June 1943 he went to the SS Main Office, to Berger, as his personal physicians; and Dr. Hoch was there for a short period of time, and this was in the fall of 1943, and from that time on it was a reserve physician, Dr. Bliess. These men were in charge of the Office for the Medical Service.

Q: Now what was Amt 14?

A: That was for the dental service.

Q: And Amt 15?

A: That was the pharmaceutical service.

Q: Who headed that Amt?

A: Before August 1943 it was Dr. Blumenreuter; he was succeeded by a young pharmacist, Dr. Rudolphy, and at the end he was succeeded by a Dr. Loehning.

Q: Now Amt 16?

A: Amt 16 was the hygienic service.

Q: And that was at one time headed by yourself, wasn't it? Did you head that yourself in the beginning, or was Mrugowsky always the chief of that department?

A: After the campaign in the West, Mrugowsky came; after he had been the chief of a medical company he returned to Berlin and then he was chief of the Hygiene Institute. At the same time he was also in charge of the hygienic service in my office; I myself was unable to be in charge of that because I have never been a hygienist and I have never received any specialized training for that.

Q: Well, then, these 4 Amts, that is, Amt 13, 14, 15, and 16, were all under Amtsgruppe D, of which you were the Chief, is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And the various chiefs of these departments, Amts 13, 14, 15, and 16, were subordinated to you, is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: You had the authority to issue orders to the chiefs of those various departments, I presume?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, now, prior to August 1943, that is, when you had the reorganization, the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was subordinated to Amt 16, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: You had authority to issue orders in that direction until August 1943, did you not?

A: Yes, for the Hygiene Institute.

Q: Now Mrugowsky was definitely your subordinate until August 1943, wasn't he?

A: Yes, as Chief of the Hygiene Institute and as Office Chief for the Office of Hygiene, that is Office 16.

Q: How about Dr. Ding-Schuler?

A: Ding-Schuler was subordinated to me until his appointment as Chief of the experimental Station by the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz. And from that time on my agency only had to take care of his expenses because he had been attached to another agency and then when no budget existed for the new place to which he was attached we had to take care of his expenses and that applied in this case.

Q: Well, now, you have stated that until August 1943 the Hygiene institute of the Waffen SS was under your control. Now, as a matter of fact, wasn't the Experimental Station at Buchenwald a Hygiene Station of the Waffen SS?

A: No, this was ordered by Grawitz and it was an experimental station that was connected with the Research Institute of the Reich Physician within the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. I, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS and as leader in the SS Administrative Main Office, was not able to give any orders in that field.

Q: Just a minute, Doctor. Dr. Mrugowsky was the superior of Dr. Ding-Schuler, was he not?

A: Mrugowsky was the consulting hygienist for this case in which the Reich Physician SS had consulted with him.

Q: You mean after August 1943?

A: No, even before that time. Dr. Ding, from the moment he was attached to the experimental station at Buchenwald, had become a subordinate of the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz; that was his direct superior.

Q: What was the title of the experimental station at Buchenwald? Wasn't it the Experimental Station of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS?

A: According to the diary, where I have obtained this knowledge, and on the page which contains my name, it is stated by Dr. Ding that from the "Experimental Station" the name was changed to "Department for Typhus and Virus Research, SS Medical Office of the Waffen SS, WeimarBuchenwald." However, that was the name for the production establishment which Dr. Kogan has stated here in his testimony, which was completely separated from the experimental station. Dr. Kogan stated that Dr. Ding was the Chief of the Experimental station and that he was Chief of Block 50 which only became a production establishment after August 1943 and which was to belong to the Hygiene Institute. As I have already stated this morning, it is a contrast in itself that this production establishment was in Block 50 but where no research was carried out and only production and that this was called Department for Virus and Typhus Research; Dr. Kogan has himself stated that this was done in copying the title of the Krakow Institute which belong to the Army which was also a research institute and which also was at the same time a production establishment.

Q: Well, now, Doctor, we will get to the typhus experiments more explicitly later and I think that the Ding Diary will show that this was the hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS Experimental Station and no other. How about Dr. Gebhardt? He was your subordinate for some time, wasn't he?

A: As I have already stated Dr. Gebhardt, when he took over his position had a special confidential relationship with Himmler.

Q: However, he was your subordinate, wasn't he?

A: He was Chief of the Institute Hohenlychen. Gebhardt had a similar position with Restock. He was Chief of the University Clinic, and at the time he was Medical Officer in the Army and Gebhardt was over the Civilian Institute of Hohenlychen, and he was also in the same research status in the Waffen SS, and since he had already been a friend of Himmler at an earlier period of time, he was in closer relationship to Himmler.

Q: Now, Doctor, I have asked you a question and you haven't answered yet. I think Dr. Gebhardt will take the stand and testify he at one time was your subordinate; now, I will ask you, at one time wasn't Dr. Gebhardt at some time to some degree your subordinate; was he or wasn't he?

A: At sometime, no.

Q: How about 1940, in 1940 was he your subordinate?

A: He was in the same position. There was a civilian department at Hohenlychen. There was a hospital department of the Army with about 400 beds, and also a smaller section in which the wounded from the SS were placed, and in regard to this Department, if you want to call that a subordination, but that did not play any major part, it was just that our wounded from the SS were placed into this civilian institute. The Hohenlychen Institute would not be subordinate me, because it was his private position there.

Q: In regard to Hoven, I take it Hoven was not your subordinate insofar as he was attached to the experimental station under Dr. Ding and under Mrugowsky at Buchenwald.

A: Hoven has never been subordinated to me. As Dr. Kogon has stated, Dr. Kogon became deputy of Dr. Ding in the Station of Grawitz, and as especially stated for the clinical station, and I did not have any official supervision or contact at all with that particular hospital.

Q: Are you sure, Doctor, that Dr. Ding or Mrugowsky didn't come to you at one time and tell you it would be necessary to have a deputy appointed to Dr. Ding at Buchenwald when he made trips, that it would be necessary to have someone in charge, and you approved that recommendation and said Dr. Kogon could carry on the work of Dr. Ding?

Don't you remember that?

A: That I cannot remember at all. Is that supposed to have some through my person and my agency?

Q: That is my understanding, Doctor, as a result of the Fuehrer's Decree of July 28, 1942, you became subordinated to Dr. Handloser, didn't you, insofar as the troops over which you had jurisdiction were on the front?

A: This subordination to Professor Handloser was caused by the division at the front of the Waffen SS, which had been assigned to the Army. The division of physicians of these camps were subordinated to the Army physicians of the Army Group Medical officers. They were subordinated to the Medical Inspectorate of the Army or Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. However, as far as the troops at home were concerned, there was no relationship of subordination to Professor Handloser.

Q: Now, assume Professor Handloser issued an order to you, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, what weight would you give it?

A: It depends to what this order referred. It could only refer to matters which had some connection with the SS Division at the front. With the troops at home or in the hospitals at home, or any other Institute, Dr. Handloser could not give me any orders whatsoever, in that connection. And in practice such an order was never given.

Q: But then under the circumstances you state that as outlined by yourself, that is these limitations you have made, it was possible that if Handloser issued an order to you that you would give it considerable weight, wouldn't you?

A: This order could only refer to the matters at the front, and then it had to go through Army channels. To what extent the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could give orders to the Army Medical Inspectorate, this question has already previously been discussed here. However, from the Army Medical Inspectorate the order had to get to the divisional medical officers, to the Corps Army Medical Officer and would be there and that would have been the channel of command, and of course he would have received a copy of such an order.

That is he opposite way as it is used in the way of submitting monthly reports from the SS divisions. The monthly reports about the patients went, the original to the Army or Corps Medical Officer of the Army, and I received a copy of that, and that would be exactly the opposite way.

Q: Now, isn't it true, Doctor, that matters concerning the budget of Medical Research in your department or in the Waffen SS were initiated by Mrugowsky, and were passed on to you and you in turn passed them on to Mueller in Department "4", where they were finally sent to Oswald Pohl, in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the amount of money requested; isn't that the procedure through which you went in order to receive funds for no medical research?

A: I have seen two different budgets during the War; they were compiled by my agency and submitted to the Reich Physician SS, and as far as science and research is concerned, they were concerned in the budget plan. I have seen that before the document, which was presented to the Tribunal here, and it must have been in 1941 or 1942. A number of budgets were set up for such institutes and they were included in the budget, and this was discussed in a meeting at the Ministry of Finance. I also attended this meeting, and it came from Pohl's main agency, the WVHA. Then Obergruppenfuehrer Frank was also present, and on the part of the Ministry of Finance, the man who attended that meeting, this scientific request with regard to the institute and the budgets far the medical matters, was turned down; and as a result of this meeting I believe that this resulted in the document which has been presented here by the prosecution, and at that time I had to turn to the Reich Research Council in order to clarify the matter. This clearly indicates, in my opinion, how the channels were with regard to the budgets.

Q: Now, Doctor, suppose Mrugowsky desired funds to carry on some research which he deemed important; now, he initiates a request for these funds, and it was necessary for him to pass on that request to you, wasn't it?

A: I cannot remember that this has happened in practice, but if we assume that this was the case, that something was needed by the Hygienic Institute, then this had to go through the administration of the SS leader main office, to which this institute belonged until 1943.

Q: Is that the office of Mueller in Department "4"?

A: That is in Department 4 of the SS Administration Office, and Standartenfuehrer Mueller.

Q: And then it went to Pohl after it went to Mueller in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the funds?

A: I do not know the other procedure past Mueller, out after the budget was approved by the Finance Ministry it probably was in the hands of Pohl. As far as I know from 1942 on he did not make any new budgets and did not make any new budgets in the course of the war, but it is true Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was he Reich Finance Minister who allotted the money.

Q: Now, Doctor, it has taken me 5 minutes to get the answer. Isn't it true that matters concerning the budget went to Mrugowsky and were then passed on there and passed on to Mueller in Department 4 and finally were sent to Pohl in the WVHA, and Pohl allotted the money? I wish you would be more brief and stop going around the barn —

A: May I point out a mistake? As far as Mrugowsky initiated these things it only applied to the Institute.

That was outside my field of competence, but it did not go over Mueller, but if Grawitz had any incident to establish them Grawitz probably passed these matters on directly to Pohl, because he did not have any main office. But you just made the mistake, hat you stated Mrugowsky had initiated these things. I only stated that the things which referred to the Hygiene Institute Mrugowsky would pass them on through me to Mueller, not anything else, with regard to science and research. These were for the Reich Physician, and he had his own staff to handle these matters.

Q: Now during the course of your direct examination, you have stated that you had no knowledge whatsoever of the activities in the field of human experimentation with which the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was connected; is not that right?

A: You must clarify what you mean by experiments on human being. I have stated from the very beginning that I had knowledge that Grawitz appointed Ding as Chief of the experimental station and in order to carry out research on typhus and in order to manufacture vaccine and the clinical use of prisoners. I have known of that and what I understood by the clinical use of prisoners I have already stated this morning, but with reference to experiments on human beings I cannot remember that either on the part of Mrugowsky or Ding I was given any information whatsoever.

Q: Now, assuming that Grawitz was absent from his duty due to illness or for some other equally important reason, were you not responsible for all of the activities of the SS medical service during the absence of Grawitz?

A: Well, it may have been assumed that I was the deputy of Grawitz; however this was never explained and there was never such an order but only when I came from the front at that time when I was still chief of staff to Grawitz in the old SS medical staff, then I was his deputy for three or four weeks by an expressed order when he participated in the campaign in the west. Later on he only took several trips and they were very brief, they had been planned to last a little longer and he always returned earlier. This has become clear to me now because in his secret research assignment he was working on things in which others apparently were not to be given any insight. I believe that I have described in detail in my previous statements just what my relationship to Grawitz was like and that I had difficulty with him because of a so-called break of confidence and also since there was a distinct rupture between Himmler and me. From this situation it resulted that I really was not a suitable man to be the deputy to Grawitz. It was only an assumption that he was sick, but I do not know if it was actually the case.

Q: Next to Grawitz, you were the most important man in the SS medical service; were you not?

A: I don't want to pass any judgment as to my importance, however, it is a fact that I was the oldest medical officer of the Waffen SS, who was residing there.

Q: As a matter of fact, the young men like Mrugowsky and Kogon considered you the daddy of the SS medical service; did they not?

A: I don't know that, I never asked them for that in any case. I cannot make myself out to be an Oberheheit for things which I do not know.

Q: After 1940, there was practically no Allgemeine SS to speak of and in your capacity as chief of the medical service of the Waffen SS within the SS your authority was exceedingly vast; was it not?

A: It was so that beside my main office there were about fourteen other main offices of which seven were also filled by medical officers. Of the others there was Lollmy in the WVHA, Kirchert in the Reichs Security Main Office, Dr. Poppendick, who was the Chief of the Race and Settlement Office and he was with the regular police, the medical chief of the police. I was just aside all the other physicians and all these agencies were outside my field of competence and were technically subordinate to the Reichs Physician. In addition, there was also the "Volks Deutsche Mittelstelle", which was equal to the main office and then there was a Reichs Commission for the settlements in the east, then there was the staff of the Higher Police and SS leaders where medical officers were also located and subordinate to the Reichs leader of the SS. Furthermore, there were all the concentration camps which had their own medical service with a medical officer in charge under the agency of Pohl and then the medical schools. Of course, I wanted to describe that there were many other agencies directly subordinate to the Reich physician. My position as chief of the medical service of the Waffen SS must not be over-rated, because I was not competent either for the troops at the front. I believe that I have tried to describe my attitude as clearly as possible.

Q: Now, prior to the reorganization of the medical service of the SS, that reorganization was in August of 1943, Mrugowsky sent reports to you concerning the work of his department; did he not?

A: Did I understand you to say after the reorganization?

Q: Prior to the reorganization — before?

A: As I have already stated this morning in my examination by the defense counsel, of Mrugowsky, he participated in a meeting and gave me an over-all report. We did not engage in any correspondence, I did not like to have a lot of paper correspondence. I was very well known for that. In the session, he reported to me what was necessary and then in accordance with this I gave my instructions and directives.

Q: What is consistent with what Mrugowsky told me you were the man, as I recall, who did not believe in a paper war. You instructed Mrugowsky not to report to you in writing, but orally; didn't you?

A: That is quite possible, yes, I wanted to have it as brief as possible.

Q: How often did he report to you?

A: It was usually once a week a meeting of the referents took place at my office. No certain date was set, but it depended on the amount of work which I had accumulated and I called those referents meetings according to the importance of matters on hand and then the proper referents would participate, approximately ten or twelve gentlemen.

Q: How far away from your office was the office of Mrugowsky; was he really available?

A: Yes I was near the office of Mrugowsky. You late to walk out the door and then a few steps had to the [illegible], then you came to the so-called first floor.

Q: Well, then it was possible for Mrugowsky to give you those oral reports without the much difficulty; wasn't it?

A: Yes, Mrugowsky, I would like to add, was very often absent on official trips, as I have already stated. He took a great number of trips to the front condition for three months he was not there and very often we were unable to reach each other through very short distances.

Q: Now, Dr. Gonzken, in your opinion statement before this Tribunal, through your defense counsel you have emphasized the fact that your solo and exclusive task was the medical care of the fighting units of the Waffen SS and this involved about 930,000 men; is that the thought you have attempted to convey to us?

A: Yes, the 900,000 which we have at the end of the war included, the losses and as can be seen from the files of the first trial, there were approximately 180,000 men. Furthermore, it is correct that my main task was the medical service of tie troops in the homeland in contrast to the army inspectorate and the inspectorates of the Navy and the Luftwaffe I did not have the field of scientific research and planning. It had expressly been stated in a written order from Himmler to the Reichs Physician of the SS, [illegible] these things did not only apply to the Waffen SS, but also to the remaining SS and the Police.

Q: Alright. Now those fighting units of the Waffen SS were at all fronts; were they not?

A: Yes, in the campaign in the west four divisions were used and at the beginning of the campaign against Russia — six divisions were used on the Russian eastern front; one division was in Finland and we had an emotional division in the Balkans. Altogether there were nine divisions and seven of them were in Russia. Altogether there were nine, then in the following years other divisions were activated very quickly and in 1943 we may have had twenty divisions and later toward the end of the war, an had thirty and now divisions were being prepared. All those completely equipped divisions were immediately sent to the front as seen as they had completed their training.

Q: Well now, out of nine units, seven of those units were fighting in the East; is that right?

A: What was in the beginning of the campaign against Russia, seven in the East, one in Finland, [illegible] in the [illegible].

Q: Well now, how many men were involved in the seven units that were fighting in the East?

A: The usual divisions, the old divisions had twenty thousand men. Later on the number was reduced to sixteen thousand, fourteen thousand and twelve thousand. And thirty-six divisions would be five hundred eighty thousand, and if you multiply twelve by thirty-six, then this will give you four hundred and so many thousand, and the other ones were replace part units at here.

Q: And the physical condition of those men fighting in the East was a considerable interest to you, wasn't it? That was your major task, wasn't it?

A: Well, the combat units, as I have already state, were subordinate to the Army corps and army and the Army or physicians, and the hygienists and surgeons were also furnished from there, but it is only natural that I was interested in the physical condition of my troops at the front, only there were no connections to those troops because the divisions were distributed at the fronts. They were fighting at longer distances so that any contact would only be established by means of couriers.

As I have already state I was given the monthly sickness rate reports, and I received a copy that from the divisional medical officers, and from that I could take a picture of the situation. I have already state that my hygienist, Professor Mrugowsky, took frequent trips to the front in order to be in contact with the Army hygienists. Since a short existed in Germany also with the Army the collaborators of Professor Mrugowsky were also very much welcome by our troops at the front.

Q: Well then first you state in your opening statement that your solo and exclusive task was the Medical care of the fighting units —

A: May I ask you to repeat it once more? I did not hear all the sentence.

Q: You have stated in your opening statement — I repeat it for the second time — that your sole and exclusive task was the medical care of the fighting units of the after SS, and that this involved many hundreds I thousands of men. Now you state that once they went to the front the only connection you has with them was through channels. Well then, how do you justify the fact that you have stated in your opening argument to this Tribunal that your sole and exclusive task was the medical care of those fighting units? Were they under your jurisdiction or weren't they?

A: The medical supply of the front units was not part of my work but in establishing new units and equipping them with medical formations, with ambulances, with wound crossings, medicines and so on, that was my task in newly activating these divisions. Then the ones which had been established were assigned to the army. They else fell under the care and supply system of the Army that is, the higher medical officer of the Army. For Example, if any dressing station was destroyed then this had to be replace by the Army, not by me. And if the Army was unable to do that, then we intervened and if we were able to do so we then gave the necessary equipment to the unit in question, but that was a regular procedure.

Q: Well then, it follows, Doctor, that the loss of fighting men through epidemics or any cause in those various units at the front was of considerable interest to you, wasn't it?

A: We furnished the personnel. If we had losses through sickness or combat fatalities, then those sample were replace from our personnel.

Q: All right. Then it is true, isn't it, that the typhus epidemic in the East concerned you realty?

A: That is what I have stated, this morning; that this was a reason that the Reich Physician SS was able to obtain an order from Himmler that the SS should produce its own vaccine because the production of typhus vaccine was insufficient.

I was interested in the results of the Production, and as I have already stated this morning I was informed of the results of Mrugowsky.

Q: Well then, in as much as you were considerably interested in the lives of those soldiers in the East and they were dying like flies from a typhus epidemic, what did you yourself about it? It was of immediate interest to you.

A: They died like flies of what?

Q: Typhus. Weren't the soldiers dying in the East of typhus?

A: First of all we has the Delousing facilities. We were very careful to establish them. That was one possibility, and the other possibility was in their document of vaccine, and we did a lot of work with those delousing facilities so that we connected these Delousing. stations with so-called "Sauna''. Sauna is a drug which is known from Finland, and as it is called in the Navy, these Sauna were used in the delousing stations, and this motion was already reported on to me by Professor Handloser. He also, had the protective immunizations, but for the time being only had enough for the medical personnel and those persons who were endangered by the disease, and thus we tried to foster the danger of typhus.

Q: All then, due to your position in your role over the fight ing. units, having a replacement problem and being charged with the sole end exclusive medical care of these fighting units of the Waffen SS, then it is reasonable to state that you and Handloser were perhaps the only two men in Germany who were really interested in the outcome of this typhus epidemic in the East? You were the two men who would be most concerned, weren't you — not Grawitz?

A: No, we were not the only men because this epidemic was, also threatening the civilian population and the civilian sector was just as much concerned as we were, and also the Army inspectorates and the Naval inspectorates and the Luftwaffe inspectorates were, of course, also interested in the question. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Robert Koch Institute had its own production facilities. I do not believe that I was the only one, with Professor Handloser, who had interests, and the Reich Physician SS was my superior, and Himmler was the superior of the whole SS and he was also responsible for the police. Therefore, he also was interested and he actually was responsible for taking care of the field of planning and research. This was not the case with me because I worked on other tasks. I was mainly interested in the results of the production which became reality in the fall of 1943, when we were able to manufacture thirty thousand portions of vaccine.

Q: Well now, the production of vaccine was a problem which concerned you and also concerned Dr. Handleser, as he stated when he was on the stand. Now, the Weigl vaccine, perhaps was the one that you had in the most quantity at that time, you needed to experiment, didn't you? Now you couldn't produce the Weigl vaccine in sufficient quantity, therefore experimentation was necessary. Now, do you mean to tell me a man who was as interested in the production of vaccine as you were, that you wore so busy with these Quartermaster activities that you didn't have any possibility to dabble in the research problems?

A: Yes, that is the way it actually was. At the time we really had other worries. There were plenty of them. We constructed new ambulances, reorganized medical units. We worked out those problems. We made protective paper for protection against the cold.

There were many other similar tasks. For this we also had these special referents, the special scientists who had to take care of these tasks.

Q: Well now, in as much as the production of vaccine was the paramount thought in your mind, from your standpoint wasn't research on typhus important in order that you could produce this vaccine in the quantities desired?

A: It was important for me to obtain then necessary amounts of vaccine so that could get them for my troops and to support the campaign against the lice and these were my main interests.

Q: Then your first problem, when that became your main interest, was to determine what vaccine could be produced in the greatest quantities and with the greatest expediency, wasn't it?

A: That was not my task. That was a task of the hygienists and it was also solved by them.

Q: All right, Mrugowsky was your chief hygienist at that time. Certainly you must have had several discussions with him about production of the typhus vaccine, didn't you? He was only two doors away apparently.

A: I am sorry but at the time I only received the only information -and I say that under oath and Mrugowsky will also do it — that we otherwise did not discuss these matters. I do not know why. Perhaps he was under the impression on account of a statement of Grawitz that I was not to concern myself with these thing, and I purposely kept away from all these matters, and I have already given the psychological reasons is for it.

Q: Well, now, Doctor, let us not be childish about this thing. Kogon, Mrugowsky, Ding, and the diary substantiate the fact that this typhus station at Buchenwald was established by virtue of your orders, and I am going to road again, and you have read it perhaps a thousand times in the last few weeks; I am Ding to real again from the Ding diary, which has been introduce as Prosecution's Exhibit — Document No. 265, which is Exhibit No. 237, and it says:

By order of the Surgeon General of the Waffen-SS, SS Gruppenfuehrer and Generalleutenant of the Waffen-SS, Dr. Genzken, the hitherto existing spotted fever research station at the concentration camp Buchenwald becomes the Department for spotted fever and virus research. The head of the department will be SS-Stunmannfuehrer Dr. Ding During his absence, the station medical officer of the Waffen SS Meisar, SS Hauptsturufuehrer Hove will supervise the production of vaccines. The chief of the academic and administrative head quarters, SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Lt. General of the Waffen SS Pohl, orders the extension of the block of stone buildings.

SS Sturphannfuehrer Dr. Ding is appointed at the same time as chief department and for Special visions in AT XVI (Hygiene), of the group department (Kints ruppe) D (medical affairs of the Waffen SS) of the SS main headquarters.

That was the appointment of Dingat this time as Chief Department 16, which you had direct control of. No interference by Grawitz; that was under your immediate subordination Department 16 that was not reorganized until we must. This took place on the 9th of day of January according to Ding's diary, obviously his took place a little world; perhaps two or three weeks earlier. You state now, Dr. Ding was not your subordinate in 1943, when he was conducting those experiments. Mrgowsky Ding was your subordinate?

A: There are several matters contained here which I have to clarify. It was not the office of Department 16, it was Mrgowsky and there was never a man in charge of 16, and this is also shown by the affidavit which I have made. Furthermore, it cannot the stated that an order was given to establish that station.

That was only a place in block 50 for the new production establish which was to be created there. And then the date of 8 January, I have already objected to this morning. I want to clarify that because the Ding diary has been presented here, and it has been admitted by Kogon that this diary was written all at the same time, so that this is already incorrect; and therefore the name was already given at a later period of time when Mrugowsky reported the production of 30,000 portions. That the experimental station which has already existed for a long time. It is shown according to the statement of Hoven, Hoven states quite already in one spot, and perhaps I have it before me — and he states approximately the initiative for giving it the name for Section for typhus and virus research, this originated with Dr. Ding. There was not an order, an order was not given. It was a suggestion of Ding's to which Genzken gave his approval. These are statements which Hoven made, which I have just mentioned.

Therefore, if I may summarize: If what is contained in the diary is [illegible], then it must be stated that I only have the approval for change of the name or for a new name for the production establishment which was just starting out. That is, Pohl gave the permission for the recent construction and from the report of 1943, it is shown that the construction of this station lasted until 15 August, and then because of the lack of machinery, which halted this production establishment in Block 50 until December. It was at a period of time when this establishment had already come under the agency of Grawitz, and it was not subordinated anymore to me.

Q: well, now, Doctor, you state that was the only thing, and —

A: (Interposing) That was a very clear description. That was a very clear description but I have never given an order for any research —

Q: Now, you state that Haven said on stand that this name initiated with Ding, asked your decision to use the name. Did you deny that Ding asked your decision to use the name —

A: (Interposing) That is quite possible, some, agreement may have been reached about that, but this suggestion was made or as Koven stated, that be made this suggestion and I gave approval; that may be possible. It is quite possible.

Q: How would he need your approval?

A: Or it might have been reported over Mrugowsky, I didn't know. I cannot remember that anymore.

Q: Why would he need your approval. You tell us here today that when Ding went to the experimental research station he was no longer subordinate to you. What would he be doing asking you if you could name such a thing for if he was not your subordinate.

A: Well, this production establishment which had been planned that in block 50 it should start as department of the Hygiene Institute, and its operation was postponed, from August 1943, and that is clearly showed by statement of Hoven. They only moved in block 50 in the middle of August.

Q: Well, now, block 46 in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp was set up in 1941, was it not according to Ding's diary, January 1942 as a matter of fact?

A: Yes in the spring of 1942 probably.

A: Under the command of Dr. Mrugowsky.

A: No under the command of Dr. Ding and an order of Dr. Grawitz, as already Kogon has stated. It is stated in the Kagon testimony subordinate to Grawitz.

Q: How Did Ding report to—

A: (Interposing) As iI have seen here from the files, the report if they went ever Mrgowsky, and some of them went directly, according to the testimony, they were passed on the Reich Physician SS. He could report to Himmler in accordance with Kogon and Balioewsky, who stated indirectly that he had a special interest in this arrangement, and that he had reported on it, and that he wanted to know everything which was required in this connection.

Q: Didn't Mrugowsky report—

A: (Interposing) And, I never received any scientific report from the experimental station. I have never seen them and I never received them. I stated that quite clearly in the several questions in my preliminary interrogation.

Q: Did Mrugowsky report to you? He said he did.

A: He did it in the spring of 1943 when it could be seen what the results of the production of Typhus vaccine would be. Altogether, there were 40,000 portions, and 10,000 were intended for the concentration camps, and 30,000 portions were to be for the Waffen SS.

Q: Now, let me read to you Mrugowsky's affidavit, the one in which your Defense counsel introduced his supplement to this morning, which did not change it — the date was change but not the substance. That was Prosecution's Exhibit No. 423, and offered as Exhibit No. 262. In the second paragraph Mrugowsky states:

By reason of my position as Chief Hygiene Officer of the Waffen SS and Chief of AMT XVI in the SS operational main Office and later of the Office III in the staff of the Reich physician SS and police, I obtained well knowledge of the position and activities of Dr. Karl Genzken and of the position and work of Dr. Edward Ding who was the Chief of the Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS at the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. Several times I received reports to which charts were attached from Dr. Ding indicating the results of the experiments carried out there an I reported on those matters to Dr. Ganzken, an occasion which shall be described later. I visited the above named department in the Buchenwald concentration camp several times. Supervision of the research and the manufacture of several fever vaccine carried out there was part of my scope of duties.

Due to position I gained complete knowledge of the official connection between Dr. Genzken and Ding. Therefore, I am able to make this statement on that subject.

Genzken was my immediate superior from 1940 until September 1, 1943 At that time a reorganization of the SS Medical Service was carried out and I was placed directly under Dr. Grawitz, then Reich Physician SS and Police.

In the beginning of 1942 —

The amendment now states it should be 1943, according to the affidavit put in this morning, —

Dr. Genzken ordered the foundation of the Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp and appointed Dr. Ding as Chief of this department. As I was at that time Chief of AXT XVI Hygiene in the SS Operational main Office, I was the immediate superior of Dr. Ding.

Now, will you go back to that sentence. "As I was at that time," prior to your setting up that production station, "Chief of the AMT XVI, I was the immediate superior of Dr. Ding." Indicating that he was the superior of Dr. Ding at the experimental research station, which existed, for nearly a year before the production station, and Mrugowsky was your subordinate. Now, I will be on to paragraph 5 of that affidavit:

Dr. Genzken knew as a matter of course, that the Institute was founded, for the purpose of providing the Waffen SS with an efficient vaccine against spotted fever. On the Department for Spotted Fever and Virus research at Buchenwald, Medical experiments on inmates of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp were carried out by Dr. Ding in order to determine the effect of various spotted fever vaccines.

In April 1943 I made a report to Dr. Genzken on the results of experiments not productions, experiments carried cut this far.

In this report u gave the necessary explanations and showed Dr. Genzken some charts which were sent to me by Dr. Ding's office, and which indicated the fever and pulse curves, the dates of the vaccination and artificial infection, the death rates, duplications which arose, etc. One of the experimental series shown in the charts was carried cut on people who were only infected out not vaccinated in -order to find cut the potency of the vaccines used in other eases."

Q: Now, Doctor, this report that Dr. Mrugrowsky made to you, was it not obvious from the report that experimentations were made on human beings?

A: No.

A: No, various things can he said in that connection and I would like to hear Professor Mrugowsky in this connection when he gets to the witness stand. I was charged with, block 50, block 46 as Chief of the Production Facilities and I have stated that it can only have been information which was brief and did not go into detail and I am only surprised that he reported these 30,000 portions to me, and that he reported to me about the vaccine, and that the vaccine which was being produced for the SS was the best. In the meantime I have thought of this discussion and it certainly must have been very brief. I believe that I can remember that both of us were standing at the time. I would like to hear Dr. Mrugowsky when he takes the witness stand. I can only emphasize once more that if this had been a detailed discussion then I would have had an idea about the big figures of the experimental series, and as far as I remember 16 experimental series were made for typhus and 13 of another kind with a total of 29. Furthermore, the big figures of the experimental subjects which almost reached a thousand and the big number of fatalities which comes approximately to 210, and I can state here under oath that I did not know anything about what was going on. I did not knew that Hovan was Ding's deputy. I did not know that Ding and his institute worked together with foreign scientists and I have only received knowledge about this from a certain Dr. Eyer and finally Dr. Kogon's personality is such that I can say something about these things, above all I want to state under oath those arc things which only came to my knowledge here in the Palace of Justice, and it is exactly the sane thing with the infections which were earned out. I did not hear anything about them from Mrugowsky.

Q: How do you deny that Mrugowsky showed you the fever charts and curves and reports as he stated here in his affidavit?

A: I have already stated that in an interrogation that I cannot remember any documents. As I have already stated the conversation was very brief and we were both standing and that can only have been in the days when, as I have already stated this morning, I was returned from the front at Leningrad when I had gall colic at Riga and when I only returned to my agency for a short period in order to settle work which had accumulated.

Then I was being treated as a result of my gall colic. That is what I have to take into consideration in that connection, what I have stated under oath.

Q: But you don't deny that Mrugowsky showed you those fever curves and charts? You don't deny that, do you?

A: I have just stated that I cannot remember — I cannot remember that he had any documents with him, but I cannot answer in the affirmative and I do not deny it.

Q: Didn't you state in an interrogation last October that you thought you could vaguely remember a conversation you had with Mrugowsky, and that the fever curves did not indicate to you that people were artificially infected. Didn't you say that last October in an interrogation here in Nurnberg?

A: It was as follows: When I was told. I did not have to give my testimony without first consulting my defense counsel, and at that time without a defense counsel I was confronted by Mrugowsky. We actually were not confronted with each other but we had our backs to each other. I was behind Mrugowsky so that I was even unable to see his face and Mrugowsky did not have the word but the interrogator took the word from Mrugowsky and they told me those things in a similar manner as you are telling them to me now and he told me, among other things, when I said I cannot remember that I was informed about the fact infections are made, and he stated if you don't want to call your comrade here a liar, we will follow up this matter to where it will state that I wasn't calling Mrugowsky a liar. I regarded Mrugowsky as a man I had worked with for many years and I couldn't imagine that he should have said anything which should not be correct. That was on the 23rd of September and on the 12th of October, after I had thought over the matter, I honestly remembered it, and I had a severe struggle with myself, because they said in the oath nothing is to be with held and nothing should be added, and then finally I wrote down a statement and I made a statement that it was quite possible that I had said it without the serological character becoming clear be, because I had not received any educational training in these fields.

However, without having the knowledge which I have now and since perhaps at that time when I thought Mrgowsky would have to know if I had stated that, that I do not maintain any more now he knows that information which I have obtained from these 1,000 experimental subjects, and that is that 560 of them were infected and 250 dead.

Q: Well, doctor —

A: And even the figures 46 and 30 did not mean anything to me. I actually was not informed. I did not have any knowledge of those things. I have only heard of them for the first time here in the Palace of Justice, and I am quite sure that we were standing at the time, and I request that Professor Mrugowsky be asked about this subject here in the witness box so that the picture will be clear.

Q: Isn't it quite obvious to you that people had typhus and that they were experimenting with these vaccines? How do you suppose these people contracted typhus?

A: I have already stated that this morning I thought there was an entomologist solution, the fact that typhus should occur in as big a camp as Buchenwald, it seemed to me that the information that typhus had broken out as a result of an epidemic, and I thought that observations wore being made on persons who had been vaccinated and persons who had not been immunized on the occasion of an epidemic. As I have already stated, I did not have any bacteriological or serological training and I did not think people were being infected in order to test medicine. I did not reach that conclusion and I have already stated that in an interrogation, and then finally I began to understand it when I was told that in the interrogation by Mrugowsky, and I have already written it in the written statement which I gave in the year 1942, and I have also told that to Dr. Alexander and I have had two different injuries to my head. That was in 1942 and I had functional disturbances and I was unable to associate things too clearly. I believe that sometimes I fail to associate things properly, and perhaps it nay have been I failed to understand a report from Dr. Mrugowsky.

Q: Doesn't it seen ridiculous to you —

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess at this time.

(A short recess was taken.)