1947-03-04, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.

MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, the Prosecution respectfully requests that the Court admonish the witness to confine himself to questions a sked by defense counsel and be more concise in his answer, furthermore, it is requested that defendant refrain from his lengthy speech making.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is not inclined to admonish the witness. Counsel may proceed.

KARL GEBHARDT — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. SEIDL:

Q: Witness, in the indictment it is claimed that you had been the personal physician of Himmler. Is that correct?

A: No, I have never been his personal physician. I would be grateful to the Tribunal if it would permit me to describe the relationship in detail because by the use of phrases and brief descriptions so much injustice has also been heaped upon others and I therefor consider it my duty, in the interest of others, to clarify this matter. The word "personal" physician means that a physician constantly remains with the person he is taking care of and that he is paid by him, just like the personal physician of a king gets his salary from the king himself and he does not take care of any other patients, or only treats other patients with the approval of his master, however, this institution did not exist with Himmler, in any case it did not exist in this manner. It is shown that the influence which Himmler gave to his physicians has to be clarified. Himmler actually was against any medical influence and that was for a very remarkable reason, his wife had been a senior nurse in a private clinic in Berlin from 1923 until 1933. At that clinic she had seen all the things which private clinics in a large city carry out with cosmetic operations, with abortions, and with cases where money was wrongly use, etc. The concept remained for a long time and it always appeared with Himmler that we, as medical men, considered our profession purely from the point of view of money, and for the duration he never kept a really fully trained physician at his side. The Finnish massage physician was with him most of the time; that was a man who took care of him even in the days when he was healthy and he is what is commonly known abroad as a mesmerist — a man who believes in influence which is riven to him from another source — and from the very beginning suck a man will not have any understanding for the teaching of Medical Schools. During the war he finally made some concessions in that respect yet he was always influenced by mesmerism and homeopathy and always had a hostile attitude towards teachings of Medical Schools. In Munich he established the Biochemical Institute under Fahrenkamp who certainly was a very clever heart specialist, but who was in a very difficult position because he was not fully Aryan, and for working under Himmler. Like people who are in suck a difficult position, he certainly may have given him some false advise.

Q: I must interrupt you here, witness. The name of this physician who treated Himmler was Kersten —

A: Yes, Kersten.

Q: And the bio-chemist in Munich was Dr. Fakrenkamp. It is the same person who has already been mentioned in the course of this trial and he was supposed to have been the only physician with such ideas in the German medical profession.

A: Yes, he was forced upon the German doctors and faced the hostility of the whole medical profession in Germany.

Q: You are also accused of Count 4 in the indictment, that is, that you were a member in a criminal organization, if not the SS. You have already stated your point of view with regard to the oath of the SS. In view of this point in the indictment do you want to add anything to your previous statement?

A: I believe it is important to describe this manner of giving orders by Himmler and this manner of thinking which becomes transferred in the Waffen SS through Military channels. Himmler's personal position can be described in very few sentences. Every period of revolution has its typical so-called "second-man", who takes the whole medium of severity on himself, just as Mehammed smiles and the Caliph carries it out. From his whole attitude Himmler was of the opinion that he was a General of tho Order who had only one viewpoint and that was Adolf Hitler; that he kept this position so easily because he was the younger and it was probable that he would survive his chief. By careful camouflage he always managed to show every relationship in suck a way that he always received directly the order from Hitler, or in any case from that direction. How he had a strange scientific opinion based on political reasons in a State Ideal from Hegel to Lenin, from Stalin to Hitler, that the State in itself is the main object and that the individual has to subordinate himself to it. That Himmler added to this concept of State Virtue and State Order was that from an obscure agricultural and biological education in the country he did not think of the individual, but what I have called in my writings, the wisdom of race. The prerequisite of suck a system of giving orders and for such an oath is that the order is sacred at the moment in which it is given, that is, that disagreement can only be expressed beforehand, but that in an almost historical ever-breeding of the old concept of soldiering that order had to be obeyed once it has been given.

Today I knew the exact arguments which can be used against these forms of oath and obligations. I would therefore like to bring forth the objections through which the grotesqueness and the incorrectness of this attitude has been proved.

Such an authoritative relationship would only be possible if the person who gives the orders is omniscient, and cleverly bound to the moral concept. That is a conclusion at which we arrive today. However, at that time it just opposite, we didn't have any concept at all about the way of giving orders, and we were glad that we were given a clear arrangement. I am still of the opinion to say that of course it would have been possible to combat such a concept if one understood its false justification, at the time when the Third Reich gave me the chance to work at Hehenlychen, I was unable to understand and that is because I was so far removed from any political activity and burden. however, on the other hand, I am still of the opinion that it is not so that at the very moment a War breaks out, viz. when on previously had an opportunity and developed things and did not realize this conflict that one then suddenly has doubts to obey. I have soon so many people die and be cowards and the cowards always had a philosophical reason for their cowardice if they didn't want to die. At the same moment I went into the field with the Waffen SS, I have tried to maintain my personal independence in the sense of positive criticism, however, on the other land I have complied. with the orders which were given, and I have demanded the same thing from all my subordinates, and that is why today I have to stand by this concept. However, it is something quite different a former SS-man somewhere should believe that the still SS existed with its obligations today, because as a result of the suicide of the commanders and the responsibility which they promised to their subordinates but did not take this form of the oath was carried to absurdity. At the and I will have an opportunity to show that I did everything that Himmler would surrender with no, and on one afternoon all the Generals of the Waffen SS would also surrender, so that we would vouch for it and our subordinates would become free of all responsibility.

At the time I was the only one who wrote the letter to the English General.

Q: What were the various positions which you occupied within course if time within the medical service of the Waffen SS?

A: 1939 I had one along to Poland as escort physician. This position was very unpleasant. It did not give us the right to intervene in any specialized field of work. We did not see anything of the war and Medical Activity, so that, just to mention the details which Karl Brandt had hinted, we made ourselves independent. The Brigade of Komolska was perhaps the only cavalry unit which with thousands of injured charged modern weapons and was near Gross-Born. That time Brandt and I, in the first dressing stations at the Eastern Front, took care of the wounded. After all of these unsatisfactory activities I applied to Himmler to establish something for the SS like a consulting physician or a specialist physician for the Waffen SS.

DR. SEIDEL: May it please the Tribunal, in Volume II of my Document Dock, there is an order by Himmler to the defendant Gebhardt, which I shall want to offer as an exhibit. I have the original of this order in my hand.. In view of the fact that the order, and the contents of this brief order, are of importance for the further understanding the testimonies, I request that I be given permission to read these few sentences into he record.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand this order has already been introduced in evidence?

DR. SEIDEL: The document has not yet been submitted. It will appear in Volume II of my Document Book as an exhibit. Right now I only want to rend the few sentences.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand you will offer the document in evidence?

DR. SEIDEL: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: You may read the sentences now from the document that you wish to read.

DR. SEIDEL: I quote:

The Riechs Fuehrer SS. Berlin, the 17th of May, 1940. I have ordered SS Oberfuehrer, University Professor, Dr. Karl Gebhardt, consulting surgeon to the Waffen SS, to clinically supervise the medical company, the main dressing station, the field and military hospitals, constantly. For this purpose he is ordered to actively intervene with his surgical group, and it’s special equipment, in case the front dressing stations are overburdened and in the case of especially difficult individual cases. As a special assignment he is charged with creating clinical reception centers, and to direct the transport of badly wounded soldiers or indispensable individuals, (officers or men) over and above the usual means of transportation. The clinical orders given by SS Oberfuehrer Professor Karl Gebhardt are to be observed by military physicians and those in the hospitals of the Waffen SS. At the same time Professor Gebhardt has been told not to intervene with hospital work beyond clinical decisions.

All military authorities are requested to assist Oberfuehrer Professor Gebhardt and his staff. The Reichs Fuehrer and Chief of German Police."

/s/ Heinrich Himmler.

End of quotation.

Q: Witness, it seems to me in this order of Himmler the tasks are described which you carried out within the medical service of the Waffen SS, in the medical service in France, is that correct?

A: It is correct. That this order shows what would have corresponded to a desired activity under normal circumstances.

This order shows how different conditions were with the Waffen SS compared to the Army, as to research medical officers and to their organized medical service. The Waffen SS wont into the War with individual elite troops, and it can already be seen from the previous description; how unfortunate it was that they were employed at critical points with the Army, for the connection and contact in personnel and material, however, was so loose that it always was that the divisions of the Waffen SS always were rather badly supported. On the other hand it was very difficult to direct these units from home, because in the first years the divisions were not together but were distributed all over the front. The almost outrageous improvisation is shown by the fact that these almost enormously good volunteers were supplied with physicians who were relatively young, and did not have any experience from the last War. In addition to that, we who were the higher superiors in the Waffen SS, and that as Reich physician in the last war were more young officers that doctors, and also I myself had the experience in the last War and Genzken only had it from the Navy. I made it my task to take care of the most surmountable difficulties providing medical supplies to the front, and untangle this matter in the Waffen SS. Therefore, you see in this order, I, unlike the consulting medical officers in the Army, did not travel around individually, but was traveling with a so-called Lehrstab, training staff, that I traveled from division with fully trained medical officers of all kinds, in order to supply this Waffen SS with its few divisions. Since, I myself lacked any combat experience as a surgeons, I first of all want with the Army in the Norway campaign I remained there with the Army and Waffen SS as combat surgeon in Belgium, in Holland and in France, until the time I was wounded, and thus I worked myself up from front medical officer to the division medical officer and consultant.

A: the time I had the advantage that from Hehenlychen, I had good contacts with the army, the Luftwaffe and all the agencies, so that with comradely collaboration I was able to make my requests everywhere, and was able to obtain assistance for our young heroic troops who did not have any tradition. I therefore was not located anywhere in headquarters army office in Berlin, but for six or eight months of the year I was at the front and then I was at Hehenlychen for at least three or four months in order to carry out my mere important operations. In the meantime, I always went to the staff at headquarters with the worries and requests with which I was burdened.

Q: In your affidavit of the 12th of December, 1946, which was presented by the prosecution as exhibit 25, you stated that in August of 1943 the position of a chief clinical officer was established by for the SS and police, and that from December 1, 1943, this position was taken ever by you; what tasks did you have in your capacity as chief clinical officer.

A: The attempt to establish the position of a chief clinical officer, which was discontinued after several months, had the only purpose that its use might be tactical at the front. I had experience, of the retreat from Rostov in 1941 or 1942, I have been in Italy at the time of the invasion of Tunis, and was also at Donez, and saw how impossible the medical supply was which was given to the Waffen SS, we ware very loosely connected with the army at the time. We only had two decisions to make; either, as we learned afterwards was absolutely correct, that the Waffen SS was to be entirely absorbed by the army and that the whole replacement of personnel and material was to be routed via the army. Himmler always opposed this idea, because he had the idea that his Waffen SS should be independent in the future, and I shall go into this later.

Or the other hand, when I came back from Donez from a plane crash with other wounded, it could be seen what conditions were in practice with the Waffen SS. In the area from Kiev and further back we had one, two or three fighting Waffen SS divisions. The wounded above all the leaders, were not to be let out of the hands of the Waffen SS, and they were not to be lost to any other hospitals at home. It was practically impossible to carry out this order of Himmler. Behind these fighting divisions, we had various kinds of hospital installations of the SS. The SS consisted of fourteen main offices, and the Waffen SS in the course of the war became one of the biggest and strongest, however, at that time we also had the Main Office of the Police, with approximately one million people. It was much stronger than the Waffen SS and had a staff of 350 physicians. The surgeons who were there had already been tested in the last war and also during their practice in peace time.

In all the cities in the Ukraine next to each other in disorderly fashion street stations and detachments of police, police stations or dental stations, and the Volksdeusche Mittelstelle whose work was to take care of civilian matters. We also had Red Cross establishments. On the whole, it can be seen that the Waffen SS had the material at its disposal, the police had the trained personnel, and the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle bad the best hospitals, which they bad taken from the Russians. At that time, I suggested in my draft to Himmler either to subordinate the entire Waffen SS to the Army and to turn over all the material to the Army or, and this was refused and disapproved by a decision of the Fuehrer, that the Waffen SS, the police and the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle, that is the three big main offices who were represented at the front and closely behind the front, should be coordinated in one clinical system.

That was the reorganization discussion which Genzken already mentioned yesterday. In this respect, it was important for me that with each senior SS and Police Commander vis with the immediate representative of Himmler in the rear echelon, three in Russia, one for Belgium, one for France and one for Italy, one chief medical officer should be established, and that to him the whole material of the Waffen SS, the Police and all the formations within, was to be placed at his disposal, and I was to be in charge of this clinical Set-up. The prerequisite was that the police had to be brought over to this point of view first, and that Dr. Hock, one of our most experienced combat physician should take over the office. So that through this union no differences should exist any more between the Waffen SS and the police. Then we were to establish jointly supply depots and hospitals and in this way we wanted to try to keep the more lightly wounded members of the Waffen SS as close as possible to the front without losing them by distributing them to various branches. I first established this in the Ukraine, when the collapse took place in Italy; I was called to Italy from the 12th September till Monte Cassino, about the end of October; then, in the meantime Dr. Hock, who was to carry out the reorganization in the police, he had succeeded in being transferee, back through Stumpfegger. Of all these tactical experiments very little remained in existence. It is true that Grawitz used this reorganization in order to gain from his antagonist towards Genzken certain advantages, which had nothing whatever to do with my suggestion.

In the years 1944 and 1945 I was in quite a different position with the Army group, which I have already mentioned.

Q: I believe that I have to correct two mistakes. You had previously mentioned the SS Main Office for Police and you apparently meant the SS Main Office for Order Police (Ordnurgspolizei)

A: Yes.

Q: That is the regular police? (Ordnurgspolizei)

A: Yes.

Q: And you agree with me if I tell you that there were only twelve offices, first you mentioned fourteen?

A: I do not know that exactly.

Q: And now something different, the Prosecution has mentioned as Exhibit 23 an organization chart for the time after 1 September 1943, this is document NO-417. This organizational chart is in Volume 1 of the Prosecution document book, I am going to hand to you this organizational chart. In the organizational chart you have been listed in your capacity as chief clinical officer on the staff of the Reichs Physician SS, and besides you the following are listed: the director of the Personal office of the Reich Physician, that is defendant Poppendick; further the chief hygienist that is the defendant Mrugowsky, then the chief dentist, the medical supply officer, and the chief of the Office of statistics.

I am now asking you the following question; did a meeting of these persons Reichs Physician or without him over take place?

A: No such a meeting has over taken place. May I perhaps say a few words with regard to the plan. It is wrong to subordinate Grawitz to Karl Brandt, because Grawitz always expressively stated that he as Reichs Physician, with his special assignments, was directly responsible to Himmler-Hitler and only by way of personal cooperation did he maintain any contacts. It has already been painted out that not oven the right to issue instructions existed concerning this. This assignment of offices and this scheme was certainly not mentioned in this meeting. I know that upon my suggestion, after I came directly from the front, the following were ordered present: Grawitz and Genzken, and the escort physician Stumpfegger, that the Higher SS loader and police of the Ukraine, and Dr. Franke, who was to take over this position in the central.

A: I know that I previously had told Himmler in a very clear manner, and at that time I already had Stalingrad behind me, Donez and Tunis, that with further improvisations and loose orders with regard to the supply system an unbearable crisis of confidence could take place, with regard to our wounded SS men. At the time Himmler, I believe, was impressed by my report from the front, and thus originated the chief clinical officer, who was to combine this clinical potential of front and rear echelon exactly as I directed with mention of just front and rear echelon.

It was important that the man who had the material, the quartermaster in the field, and the remaining men who were connected with other supply men at the front, viz. Mugrowski, and the coordinating dentist were all set to help my attempts to finally make order there.

I cannot remember, but I believe that Grawitz, a considerable time later, handed me the same plan. I read the name of Poppendick, whom I never officially saw before or after; and the work with Mrugowsky was always coordinated, he was the hygienist, and I was the clinical officer.

Q: How often did you meet Dr. Mrugowsky for discussions in the course of the war?

A: I believe that no guild separates its various spheres so sharply as the medical profession. I have never underestimated the importance of hygiene at the front. However, I know, like every person who has worked at the front, how quick and how mobile the war was and how little suggestions, the individual votes kept up.

I can only remember that at the beginning Mrugowsky gave a lecture at one time, and at the time I may have met him at the front. However, I do not know that. I am quite certain that I saw him. at the fourth meeting at Hohenlychen. He was an active medical officer, had owned by this institute, was absolutely coordinated, of course, and locked after his own influence in his field.

I personally did not have any contact with the bacteriologists at sanitarians.

A: You therefore, in particular, did not have any discussions with him, the subject of which was medical experiments?

A: Quite certainly not.

Q: Will you please repeat that answer?

A: In no manner, and I have not seen Mrugowsky either in preparing the sulfonamide experiments.

Q: During the war did you have discussions with non-surgeons?

A: I certainly did not have any which discussed the preparation of experiments, certainly not any professional ones. Hohenlychen was a clinic with many guests. I cannot remember having seen, for instance, Herr Rose anywhere or having contacted anybody else in the entire bacteriological field. I have very briefly met him at the front, but each, within his field of tasks.

For example, didn't you ever have any discussions with Professor Hirt or Professor Gildemeister?

A: No.

Q: In the order of Himmler which I have already read, front surgeons are mentioned, and you yourself were in charge of them. Did this activity prove its value during the other campaigns and did you also carry it cut?

A: I have already mentioned that our emergency situation was in contrast to that of the Army. From the very beginning we only had young surgeons. Later on the SS grew to a very large extent in numbers, so we not only had very young but we also had very few surgeons, and it had been me a common practice that wherever big offenses were to be expected an additional surgical, group which was led by me was used, so that in Africa with every collapse and with every retreat, I was always constantly being used.

Q: Witness, tomorrow we shall discuss the sulfonamide experiments. As a final question for today I would like to tell you the following and I request you to answer the following question. During the war what were your contacts with Himmler, especially with regard to any medical influence, and in view of the experiments which here were the subject of the proceedings?

A: I shall openly state whatever I know at this time, whatever I know with regard to the experiments and Himmler. However, quite independent from this may I shortly summarize, outside of being escort physician in Poland, I have not spent a longer period of time with Himmler, with the exception that during the last few weeks Himmler was so lonely that he was together with me with the British occupation troops.

In the meantime my activity was divided between the front and Hohenlychen, I had a very independent position in the sense that I was in a very good personal relationship to Genzken, and I did everything in order to keep Genzken in his position because he was taking good care of the Waffen SS.

On the other hand I took everything away from him at the front which he was unable to supervise, and I tried at first to give orders from outside the army, and then as the need end danger grow, to supply the frontal troops from within the Army as best I could, I went to Himmler from the family of Himmler from the front, or from Hohenlychen, whenever it was possible for me, and I believe that I was the man who gave him the most honest reports about tendencies abroad, and the situation at the front, and I was able to give him the most honest and truthful information.

However, it was not so that he helped me but that I helped the SS and that generally I always came on my own initiative, and that I reported to him on my own initiative about any special situation. I then spent one or two days at the headquarters. Himmler's working procedure was so that he received persons individually and as soon as some other person was present I purposely never explained the connection to Himmler, because next to Hippocrates Frederic the Great was his saint and he had his Testament, and in the testament of Frederic the Great it is stated, it is important for an order that one does not let his intentions be recognized, so that the subordinate will not bring his report in accord with the desired effect.

I believe that this was one of the main principles in the life of Himmler; that is, how to handle us. May I perhaps say a word in conclusion which I wrote to him at some time or other, which is his good part or his disaster; that is Himmler believes everything at the moment he speaks it, and all persons believe Himmler, what he is saying.

DR. SEIDL: Hay it please the Tribunal, in view of the fact that now we come to a now sector; that is, the sulfonamide experiments, I request that perhaps the session may now be discontinued and recessed.

THE PRESIDENT; The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 5 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)