1947-03-17, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
KURT BLOME — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q: Witness, during the morning session you explained to us among other things the new manner of x-ray photography, the so-called screen photograph; you stated that using this new method one could use 200 to 300 photos per minute; were you not wrong, didn't you mean perhaps per hour and not per minute?
A: Yes, per hour.
Q: I just wanted to correct that so that it does not appear erroneously in the record. We shall continue, witness, with the letter, which we had discussed repeatedly, the letter of November 18, 1942, which is to be four in Document Book No. 9 regarding the extermination of Poles, it is No. 250 Exhibit 203, that is Document 250, Exhibit 203. It is a letter in which you define your attitude to the proposal made by Greiser namely to liquidate these tubercular Poles; do you know the contents of that letter?
A: Yes.
Q: In this letter you made certain proposals, may I ask you to tell us what suggestions you actually made in that letter; do you need the letter for that purpose?
A: Thank you, I have it. As the most suitable suggestion, I consider my suggestion to create an area, an area in which one could put the tubercular Poles and I reminded of the well known throughout the world leper areas. I must emphasize that there is a considerable difference between tuberculosis and leprosy.
When I made the last draft of my letter, the leading medical office the Warthe Gau was suddenly announced to me and Dr. Gundermann was the highest state medical officer of the Warthe Gau. Dr. Gundermann reported to me and said that he had just come from Dr. Conti, he said that he heard rumor from the Warthe Gau, according to which tubercular Poles were to be liquidate Dr. Conti maintained a very evasive attitude toward him so he actually left Dr. Conti without having acquired any results and thereupon he had decide come to me.
I told him that he had come at the most suitable moment, I explained to him the position as it had developed in the meantime. I told him of my conversation with Hohlfelder and of my conversation with Greiser and the letter which was arranged. He was very pleased about it and was pleased that I had the same rejecting attitude that he had. I showed him the draft of my letter and he made a few suggestions in that connection. The number of geographical details in the letter originated actually from Gundermann. In particular, he emphasized the importance of a special settlement of the tubercular Poles and he recognized this as the most suitable solution. These suggestions I had already known, especially coming from the tuberculosis meeting of the year 1937. During that meeting, two well-known German tuberculosis experts, Dr. Dorn and Dr. Hein had lectured about tuberculosis settlements, excerpts from these speeches are contained in my document book. I knew that experiments had been made with such tuberculosis settlements not only in Germany, but also in England.
When making my suggestion to Himmler I explained in detail how such a suggestion could be realized, in my letter I explained the tactics that were to be used, taking into consideration the mentality of people like Greiser and Himmler and made it appear as though I wanted to agree to their liquidation program. Afterwards I cited all the political misgivings I had by naming individual examples that I could cite. I then said that on one experiment the severely ill people and the people where there was a danger of infection would be excluded and I said that Polish physicians and Polish nursing personnel were to be attached to these severe ill patients in order to avoid the appearance of a death camp. Every physicians knows, and it is also known in lay-men circles, that if one isolates severe ill people, such an isolation is soon being considered as an isolation for death and that is why I said that the necessary Polish physicians and the nursing personnel had to be attached to these camps. I considered as my big suggestion the creation of a reservation for all tubercular Poles.
In particular, I wish to point out the following in my letter, I said and I quote:
I could imagine that the Fuehrer having sometime ago stopped the program in the insane asylums might at this moment considers a special treatment of the incurably sick as unsuitable and irresponsible from a political point of view.
I mentioned that because Grieser's suggestion from the year 1941 pointed to a comparison with the Euthanasia action, but in order to be quite sure that these political misgivings also reached Hitler and that the decision was not mainly in the hands of Himmler, I sent a copy of my letter directly to Martin Bormann. I furthermore want to point out the following matter, I said:
I consider any secrecy as completely impossible.
In this connection, I should like to point to a letter concerning a different acts namely the letter of the deputy gauleiter [regional or district leader] of the Lower Danube, dated the 1942, where experiments are being suggested for the sterilization of nation groups such as gypsies. In this letter, contrary to my letter, a completed different tactic is used. The Deputy Gauleiter of the Lower Danube states that one has to keep such an action very secret, because otherwise it would have serious consequences from the point of view of the state.
MR. HARDY: Is it your intention to put this letter you are referring in evidence or is he merely quoting from his own letter?
THE INTERPRETER: The question did not come through.
MR. HARDY: Is it the intention of the defendant to put the letter he is referring to in as evidence, or is he merely quoting from his own letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Can counsel for the defendant Blome advise the Tribunal on that point?
DR. SAUTER: This is a letter which was already used by the Prosecution and that in that manner came to the knowledge of the indictment and, therefore can be quoted by him. It is certainly not necessary to submit this letter once more.
THE PRESIDENT: Would Counsel please identify the letter, the Exhibit and where it maybe found.
DR. SAUTER: One moment, please. Mr. President, this letter was submitted by the Prosecution in their document book number six in regard to sterilization experiments. It was submitted as document number 039 — I repeat 039 — exhibit of the Prosecution number 153. This is a letter by the Deputy Gauleiter of the Lower Danube district addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler dated the 24th of August 1942. This letter was already submitted by the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: In Document book 6 can you give me the page of the document book.
DR. SAUTER: In the German document book it can be found on page one, six, 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Very Well, that is sufficient.
DR. SAUTER: Document 039.
THE PRESIDENT: The examination may proceed.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q: Doctor, will you please finish your answer?
A: In this letter the Deputy Gauleiter of the Lower Danube district writes to Himmler, and I quote:
We are quite clear about the fact that such examination must be considered as absolute State secrets.
That is exactly contrary to the tactics which I used. I say:
I think that any secrecy is quite impossible,
and I give my reasons for that individually. I should merely give you a short excerpt from my letter I am pointing out how many Polish workers are in the German Reich. I point out that there would be questions from their relatives about their whereabouts.
I point to a number of Germans who are related to these Poles. I point out that in the case of the Poles we are concerned with members of a conquered nation. I further point out that certain circles would spread a rumor among the population that similar methods would be used in case of German tubercular patients in the future. I further show that in connection with the appointment of Professor Brandt to the Commissioner General, foreign broadcasts spread reports according to which Brandt was no longer considered with the rehabilitation of seriously wounded people but only with these people who had only been slightly wounded. I point to their reaction which would result in the case of such a crime with the Italian physicians and scientists as well as with the entire Italian population. I further more point to the church, and I say then and I quote:
Therefore, I think it is necessary to explain all these points of view to the Fuehrer before undertaking the program.
With reference to my suggestion for a settlement, a reservation, I say in the one but last paragraph of my letter, and I quote:
After a proper examination of all these considerations and circumstance the creation of a reservation such as the reservations for lepers seems to be the most practical solution.
Before that I had suggested that these settlements of tubercular person should be arranged in such a manner that the members of their families who were willing could also be settled there. In this manner in addition to the necessary nursing personnel and the necessary Polish physicians, the necessary medical care would be safeguarded.
Q: Witness, you previously referred to your suggestions, and you spoke about a congress regarding tuberculosis questions in which you participated.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have an excerpt from the record of this tuberculosis congress which I have submitted in Document Book Blome No. 14. That is Document Book Blome No. 14, page 24 to 30. This is a report about the third international congress — one moment. Yes, it is No. 14. It is a report on the proceedings of the German Tuberculosis Conference dated the 18th to the 20th of March 1937, which took place at Wiesbaden.
The reviews to reproduced here.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this document is found in supplemental documents, Blome, page 24, and not the document book — supplemental documents.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, in the supplemental volume. In this report a paper by two-well-known German tuberculosis experts is mentioned, one a Dr. Erwin Lorn, who was the chief physician of a lung sanatorium, Charlettenhoeche, and a certain Dr. Joachim Hein, who was the director of a lung sanatorium at Holstein. I am not going to read these papers in detail, but I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of them. I presented these reports of the conference in order to show that the same suggestions which this Defendant, Dr. Blome, had made in the year of 1942 when writing to Gauleiter Greiser are also contained here in the year of 1937 and were made during the German Tuberculosis Conference. These proposals were made not dealing with foreign tubercular persons, but dealing with German tubercular person.
THE PRESIDENT: Do Counsel offer this document into evidence?
DR. SAUTER: It will become Exhibit No. 6, Blome Exhibit No. 6.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q: Witness, in this letter of the 18th of December 1942, about which we are speaking now, you really dealt with three proposals; one, special treatment of the seriously ill persons; two, most rigorous isolation of the serious ill persons, that is to say, separation from the outside population; thirdly, creation of a reservation area for ill tubercular patients in Poland. Now when reading your letter, and I put that to you, one gains the impression, or at least one could gain the impression, that you were speaking in favor of your first suggestion in the first part of your letter, namely, the special treatment of the seriously ill persons, which is to say their liquidation as it was suggested and wanted by Himmler and Greiser.
My question is: Why didn't you simply declare in your letter of the 16th of November 1942, very frankly that this liquidation of the incurably ill tubercular Poles, as it was suggested by Greiser and Himmler, is a crime; it can under no circumstances be permitted and that I, Dr. Blome, would have nothing to do with any such proposal?
Why didn't you write to Greiser at that time in that sense?
A: I think that this morning I already defined my attitude toward that question very shortly and I state again the most favorable thing to me would have been just to point out the criminal aspects of this proposal when writing my letter, but I knew the mentality of these gentlemen and it was quite clear in my mind that the expression of any such point of view could only have a negative result, and in doing that I wouldn't have saved myself and much less 30,000 tubercular Poles, and they would have then been actually liquidated.
If I had not wanted to represent my true point of view, frankly then I wouldn't have had to think for days about writing my letter. Then this would have been a matter of at least five or ten minutes. I would just have had to dictate the letter and mail it, but I had become clear in my mind, and that was also the opinion of Professor Hohlfelder, that I would have appeared as if I agreed to this proposal if I wanted to have any success with my counter proposals. I was convinced that the list of all the political aspects which could bring any danger could only be of any effect if the success of my procedure quite clearly speak for my tactics. Yes, Himmler wanted really to realize this proposal I made or he wanted to exploit it propagandistically, that is stated clearly in the letter Himmler to Greiser, dated at the end of November, 1942, the documentary value of my letter can objectively be seen only in the following: It shows, firstly, during that time of brutal thinking, men like Himmler had no room for any ailment of any human nature; secondly, only through an open and clear statement of the ailments could the crime against 10,000 of Poles be prevented, and I was only concerned with success.
Q: Witness, the one suggestion which you put forth in your letter was No. 2 which says:
Most rigorous isolation of the serious ill persons.
With reference to the subject, the Prosecution states that during the meeting of the 19 December that you had the idea to bring these tubercular patients into institutions and I quote them:
You voided that opinion so that a relatively now technique of these patients could be effected in these institutions.
Was that really your intention, and did you think of any such possibility at that time, that is when you made the suggestion?
A: On the contrary I cannot recognize the evidence of the Prosecution regarding that point as being lawful. Had it been my intention to let these patients die, then I wouldn't have demanded that they be given necessary physicians and the necessary nursing personnel. In addition I want to point out what I have already said dealing with that point.
Q: The other suggestion you made at that time and which is listed under figure 3 of your letter is the creation of a reservation for all TB patients and during the same meeting of the 19 December the Prosecution said with reference to that proposal and I quote:
With this plan, that is, to bring all patients into a reservation and thereby isolate them from the rest of the population, you, Dr. Blome, have wanted to bring about that those ill Poles would be left with very few physician and with little nursing personnel to their fate, and in this way the aim of liquidation of these Poles was to be realized.
What do you have to say, Dr. Blome, to this motive, as it was asserted by the Prosecution?
A: This motive is not correct. The contrary can clearly be seen from my letter. In that connection I may point to the explanation which I made previously regarding my letter. Furthermore, I point to the affidavit of Dr. Gunderman I had exactly the contrary interest to what the Prosecution tries to charge me with. I had this contrary interest only for the reason because I was planning the very same thing for Germany after the war, and if I had been able to carry through such an action and if I had been able to show any success in that action it would have been easier for me later on to have stopped these plans, rather the plans already mentioned, during that tuberculosis meeting of 1937 by pointing to the success which I made in the Warthe Gau. Even today I realize as well we haven't been able to bring about any really effecting medical treatment against tuberculosis or any vaccination against tuberculosis; that the only really effective solution is the creation of such settlement areas or reservations.
Q: Dr. Blome, from your book, entitled: "Physician in Combat", which has been submitted in evidence as Blome Exhibit No. 1, in its entirety, it can be seen for quite a long time to have waged a fight against tuberculosis. Can you tell us on the basis of your experiences whether these proposals which you made in your letter 18 December, 1942, that is, either the housing of the tuberculosis institution, accommodation of the tuberculars in a reservation area whether these suggestions were completely different from the manner of the tuberculosis control as it was exercised in various foreign countries up to that time or if one didn't speak about the fight against tuberculosis one could speak about other infectious diseases of the same importance as tuberculosis?
A: Naturally the plan to install a tuberculosis settlement on a large scale doesn't represent anything absolutely new because as it can be seen from the documents submitted regarding the tuberculosis settlements, such tuberculosis settlements had existed in England and Holland in addition to Germany with great success, but on the other hand the realization of this settlement idea would represent an enormous progress in the tuberculosis fight generally. The existence of the war difficulties, that existed in the year 1942 and 1943 did not permit this plan to be realized as it was suggested by me for the Warthe Gau, but the fight against tuberculosis continues in the usual character as it was possible during the war and as it was handled throughout the Reich, including the Germans.
In other countries; other experiments were made. For instance in the year 1935 certain well known people in the city of Detroit in America, made a large scale experiment for the combat of tuberculosis. After the preparations were made the entire population of Detroit was asked by means of an enormous propaganda by press and radio to report to examination stations for tuberculosis in order to find out the source of the infection. The city of Detroit had put necessary facilities at the disposal necessary to carry out the examination and a certain success must be realized. Especially, the colored population of Detroit reported in their entirety, or almost their entirety, for the purpose of these examinations, and American literature on the other hand complained that this wasn't fully the case with the white population.
This action started in 1936, was continued in 1937, and I then read — I could not hear anything further about it — the final end of that action because the War had started. All of these actions as that action in Detroit, as well as the little settlements in the form of little tubercular villages, do not solve the entire problem if it isn't done on a mass scale and there is no doubt about the fact that the tubercular problem has not been attacked properly in the world today. That is only one reason tuberculosis cannot be compared with any other contagious disease — diphtheria, cholera, typhoid. These epidemics have a shorter course which quickly get their victims. If that had been the case then we would have progressed much farther with the fight against the tuberculosis problem. The tragical thing in that problem is the manner of the disease itself, the slow tricky course. That is why, according to my knowledge, there is no where in the world a law which asks for the final isolation of tuberculosis sick and which safeguards that course. Such plans are being considered, however, during all congresses dealing with tuberculosis all over the world. As far as I know nobody has embarked on the final step and I think the reason is the slow tricky course of tuberculosis and that in spite of the fact that tuberculosis is regarded in its mortality second place of all serious diseases.
Q: In addition to that letter of 18 December 1942 about which we are speaking now did you take any more steps in order to frustrate the plan by Greiser, namely to liquidate all tubercular Poles and in particular did you turn to Hitler or Himmler personally in that matter?
A: No I didn't speak to Hitler at all throughout the entire War.
Q: How about Himmler?
A: I spoke to Himmler on various occasions but that was about one year later. At that time I had no official relationship to Himmler as yet and I didn't know him. Had this happened one year later when I already had official contact with Himmler and had I known him better I wouldn't have written a letter. Then I would have approached Himmler personally and I would have been able to frustrate the action without having to write a letter. Having written this letter I received a report through Mr. Greiser very shortly thereafter that Himmler had withdrawn his order and that finished this affair for me.
I was only informed to the effect that everything was handled in Warthe-Gau orderly as regards examination and list of Poles in Warthe-Gau.
Q: Who sent you this report that this plan had been withdrawn on the basis of your suggestion?
A: I heard that from Hohlfelder as well as Perwitschky.
Q: These were the two gentlemen —
A: Well, Hohlfelder was the Commanding Officer of the X-Ray Battalion and Perwitschky was the business manager of the association for planning tubercular control.
Q: Did you gain knowledge how it really came about that this plan was rejected and, in particular, do you know that Himmler had said that Hitler himself had to make a decision and do you know that Hitler himself accordingly decided that this plan be given up for the reasons which you, Dr. Blome, have stated in your letter to Greiser? Did you gain knowledge of that later?
A: At that time I only learned from Professor Hohlfelder and Perwitschky that the reasons stated in my letter had moved Himmler to withdraw his order. As regards the letter of Himmler I only gained knowledge here in this courtroom because of the document and I am, therefore, very grateful to the Prosecution for not having kept this letter from me.
Q: Witness, when you say that this plan of Greiser's had been frustrated because of you, I must remind you of what the Prosecution has said here on the 9th of December in this court room. The Prosecution said at that time:
We shall bring evidence which will show that the program was being executed at the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943.
And by that the program of the liquidation of the tubercular Poles was meant.
Furthermore, that on the basis of the proposal by Greiser and Blome many Poles had been mercilessly exterminated and that, furthermore, others had been removed to remote camps where there were no possibilities or curing them, where there were no facilities provided for them, where thousands met their death.
These were statements made by Prosecution. I must again ask you very definitely did you at any time later hear that on the basis of these tuberculars were in effect exterminated?
A: No. The assertions of the Prosecution are not true. Within the framework of this tubercular action in the Warthe-Gau nothing happened to one Pole. On the contrary he was medically decently treated.
Q: Can you even maintain this your assertion when you remember that the co-defendant Brandt, Rudolf Brandt, has stated in one of his very numerous affidavits, namely the affidavit of the 24 October 1946, that and tried to incriminate you in this point. This is the affidavit of the defendant Rudolf Brandt which can be found in the Document Book of Prosecution 9 as Document 441, Exhibit 205. It is the last document of this volume. Here Brandt says and I want to put that to you and I quote:
At the end of 1942, and the beginning of 1943, Greiser carried out the extermination of the Jews in the Warthe-Gau and also the execution against the tubercular Poles was brought to an end simultaneously with the Jewish action. According to my memory as a result of the suggestions made by Blome and Greiser between eight to ten thousand Poles were exterminated.
You remember that during an earlier session it had already been maintained that the defendant Rudolf Brandt had substituted eight to ten thousand Poles by the word "numerous Poles." What, Dr. Blome, do you have to say about this affidavit of Herr Dr. Rudolf Brandt?
A: I cannot be made responsible for the correctness of such an affidavit by Dr. Rudolf Brandt. I gained the conviction today that Rudolf Brandt has signed everything that was submitted to him by the Prosecution. I, therefore, cannot be made responsible for any incorrectness in his statement. I know of no case — I know of not even one killing and I am convinced that if the assertion of Rudolf Brandt, or the assertion of Prosecution, would be correct, namely that many Polish persons had been exterminated, then the Prosecution, just as in the case of the sulfonamide experiments, would have been able to get witnesses from Poland because I am sure it wouldn't be difficult to do that if thousands of Polish persons had been liquidated to get members of their families to testify here in this court room about their crimes.
Q: Dr. Blome, it can be seen from the many documents which had been submitted that in the later years, especially in the year 1944, numerous persons had been exterminated in the concentration camps because they had lung diseases. Did you know anything about that up to the time of this trial and do you have any reason to believe today that these killings can be brought into connection with the plan of Greiser from that time?
A: There is no indication for that. When at a later date as for instance in Hadamar, Polish tubercular patients were killed there is no indication that in any way can be connected with Warthe-Gau. During the last year when I was interned in camp of Darmstadt I found out for the first time that any killings of tubercular patients had taken place and I learned about the Hadamar proceedings according to which so and so many tubercular patients had been killed. That is the only time I heard about these things and what I heard about here during the trial.
Q: Do you remember, Doctor, that in the euthanasia institution, Hadamar about which you have been speaking, not only 30,000 insane, from the year of 1941 to 1944, had been killed, but also as it says:
numerous Poles and Russians from the beginning of June, 1944, until March 1945
That can be seen from the document book of the prosecution 16, Volume 16, Page 52. The document has the number 1116, Exhibit 415. These "numerous Russians and Poles" were supposed to have been tubercular patients. Altogether, more than 400 tubercular Poles. If I understand and interpret your answer correctly, you have no indication show that this letter is, in any way, connected with the plan of Greiser from that time?
A: No, that is out of the question.
Q: Before leaving this chapter I should like to put a final question to you which, in sure way, is connected with it. Do you know that in the Third Reich a plan had existed at one time to exterminate the intelligentsia of Poland? How did you gain knowledge about such a plan and what did you do about it?
A: That was approximately in the year of 1941 when I hear about it. I either received a letter from Dr. Conti, by accident, or one of the gentlemen of the Party Chancellery approached me. I can't tell you that exactly. Dr. Conti had made the plan and special preparations had to be made, or rather were to be made, in order to sterilize the Polish intelligentsia class. The purpose of this undertaking was to weaken the Polish power of resistance for the entire future by rubbing them of their leading class. I immediately fought against this plan in the most severe manner. I defined my position toward it in writing and saw to it that my attitude on that question went to Reichsleiter [National Leader] Bermann of the Party Chancellery. I gave detailed reasons for my point of view. Among other matters I started in my letter that it would be insane and it would. be highly inconsequential to point to any crime in a plan which was made by a certain Dr. Kaufmann, using press and radio for that purpose, and then simultaneously execute such plans oneself. Regarding these plans of Dr. Kaufmann — German press reports were concerned with a plan whereby a certain Dr. Kaufman in the United States of America publicly was to have recommended that after a victory ever Germany a large part of the German nation be sterilized.
That was a press report which was generally published in Germany and, if I recollect rightly, it was also broadcast over the radio. Whether this assertion is correct I don't know because I have no possibility of proof. Furthermore, in my protest at that time I pointed out — and I remember that exactly — the following: In future history nobody will ever understand that a victor, after the end of hostilities, proceeds to paralyze the progress of the conquered nation. In history it is nothing new that during the course of hostilities civilians and the population of cities and villages lose their lives themselves, but there is no precedent of any such plans after the nation had already been conquered and nobody will ever find any understanding for any such procedure. Then, one gentlemen from the Party Chancellery told me that Bermann had understood my point of view and approved it. He said that the statements I made were perfectly right. After that I heard nothing further about sterilization up to the time when the indictment was served to me here.
DR. SAUTER: This point, Mr. President, seems to me of importance since it shows the fundamental attitude of the defendant Dr. Blome with reference to the Polish nation and, in connection with this point, I submit to you as further evidence the affidavit of Professor Dr. Boehm which can be found in the Document book Blome, Document No. 4, page 13 and 14. I offer this document as Exhibit Blome #7. The affidavit originates from the University Professor Dr. Hermann Beehm, born on the 27th of October, 1884, Giessen, Liebigstrasse 41. He says on oath, and I quote: I can eliminate the first two paragraphs and I start reading the third paragraph:
On the occasion of one of these visits, about 1941, Dr. Blome told me, among other things, that the Reich Health Leader Dr. Conti wanted to published sort of a secret order, or already had published such an order, according to which the intelligentsia of the Polish people was to be exterminate by sterilizations.
Dr. Blome was highly indignant at this plan of Dr. Conti's and told me that he had already taken appropriate steps at the Party Chancellery to frustrate this plan of Dr. Conti's. My conversation with Dr. Blome at that time took rather a long time. Dr. Blome repeatedly declared that such a plan as Dr. Conti intended it was absolutely inhumane and, therefore, had to be prevented under all circumstances.
The further contents refer to the affair of Dr. Kaufmann which I need not read in retail. I ask you to take judicial notice of the entire affidavit.
Before leaving this chapter regarding the action against tubercular Poles I submit to you as a further piece of evidence an affidavit which can be found in Document Book Blome, Document No. 1, page 1 and. 5. This is an affidavit of Dr. Oskar Gundermann, and I give it the Exhibit Number Blome No. 8. Taking into consideration the particular importance of this problem, I ask to be permitted to read this affidavit, especially since I don't know whether the witness that I wanted, Perwitschky, will ever be brought here. This Dr. Gundermann, who was born in the year of 1894, states, under oath:
From 1929 on I was in the service of the state as state doctor. From 1935 on I was an official doctor and head of the Department of Health in the government district Merseburg. In autumn of 1939 I was ordered by my department to the later Wartheland to serve as official physician. From the summer of 1940 on I was principal medical officer in the department of the Reich governor in Posen.
The frequency of tuberculosis in the reaction of the Wartheland, was, according to statistics recorded before 1939 — at the time of the Polish health administration — considerable higher than in the German Reich When the administration was taken over, no modern welfare service for T.B. for the whole region existed. Among other things, there were insufficient beds to effect successful treatment and isolation of T.B. patients. The estimates, made on the basis of the statistical material, of infectious T.B. cases, amounted to a round figure of twenty to twenty-five thousand people of the Polish population.
To control this T.B. epidemic the authorities immediately began building 40 health offices with modern welfare centers, as well as sanataria and isolation homes with approximately 2,500 beds for Germans and Poles (the latter under Polish medical direction with Polish doctors and Polish nursing staff). These were speedily finished. These measures by the office of the Reich governor were supported by the superior Reich authority, that was the Health Section of the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Since, particularly owing to the increasing difficulties arising from the war, the above institutions were able to control the spreading of the T.B. epidemic to a certain degree, but not to get the urgently necessary sanitary measures running effectively, all the medical officers of the Wartheland untiringly continued to warm their superiors and heads of departments of that prevailing danger.
The whole affair had an unexpected turn in the autumn of 1942 because the Gauleiter and the Reich Governor Greiser supposedly said that in case of necessity he would stop at nothing to check the tuberculosis epidemic in the Wartheland effectively in the interest of the entire population.
My endeavors to get a clear and authentic statement from Gauleiter Greiser on this subject were bound to be unsuccessful, because between Greiser, who was decidedly hostile to civil servants, and myself, relations were definitely strained, for reasons which need not be discussed here. As, however, I could not leave Greiser's supposed statements at that, I thought it my duty to talk personally to the head of the Department of Health in the Reich Ministry of the Interior and Reich Health Leader, Dr. Conti, in Berlin, about this matter and the whole tuberculosis problem. At the end of October or the beginning of November 1942, I was received by Dr. Conti at his office as Reich Health Leader. I frankly informed Dr. Conti, referring to the state of health in the Wartheland, which was known to him from numerous reports, that I had hear rumors of the above mentioned alleged statement by Gauleiter Greiser. Dr. Conti evaded me in a way, but he admitted that certain plans for a radical solution the tuberculosis problem of the Wartheland were under consideration. As I was unable to get a clear answer from Dr. Conti and could not be satisfied with such information, I immediately called on the deputy Reich Health Leader Dr. Blome. I knew that he dealt with special tuberculosis questions in the Reich Health Leader's Office. From the beginning Blome showed a clearly negative attitude toward any possible solution contrary to human principles of medical ethics. He showed me the draft of a letter addressed to Greiser; I asked him for a few additions and alterations.
We discussed the formulation of the letter in detail from the point of view of convincing Greiser that an intensive continuation of the health and welfare measures so far taken and a further extension of the health programs up for the fight against tuberculosis could effectively avert the acute danger. The suggestion for a large tuberculosis settlement was particularly discussed. This plan was based on smaller examples, and its final aim was the establishment of a widely spread, but never-the-less closed settlement for tuberculosis patients and their families.
In this settlement, all modern examination, treatment, isolation, and welfare facilities should be provided for the patients and members of their families who might be in danger. In this way it should be possible in a few decades to reduce tuberculosis cases to a minimum. The form of settlement for the endangered family was suggested, because the orderly treatment of tuberculosis and isolation take years and the separation from the family in sanatoria and above all in isolation homes time and again lead to the greatest spiritual difficulties on the part of the patients and their families, and therefore to a delay in the cure. According to experience the danger for the family members is small, since the properly trained, hygienically living, medically attended and nursed patient does not represent any danger worth mentioning for his family. Dr. Blome and I having agreed on the tactics to be taken toward Greiser and on the contents of the said letter, Dr. Blome began in my presence to dictate the draft of a new letter.
After this conference with Dr. Blome I returned satisfied to Posen, with the conviction that I had done the utmost in accord with my duty to keep on the only medically correct way for the fighting of tuberculosis in the Wartheland. I concluded essentially from the development in the fight against tuberculosis in the Wartheland that the letter of Dr. Blome to Gauleiter Greiser was successful. The regulation about tuberculosis relief having become effective for the whole Reich territory on April 1943, a similar regulation for the protection against tuberculosis could be decreed in the Wartheland in favor of the Polish population. A central office for the fight against tuberculosis was established under the management of a specialist. This office gave the same treatment to the German and to the Polish cases. The preparation of further sanatoriums and beds, especially for the Polish sector, was secured. Especially important was the retention of supplementary food rations also for isolated, so-called incurable cases of tuberculosis. This, too, was granted to the Polish as well as to the German patients. In spite of the difficulties arising from the war, which in the years 1943/44 were increasing from day to day, the proper treatment for each case was attempted. In this connection orders were also given, that in spite of regulations to the contrary regarding the employment of Polish personnel in public offices, a tuberculosis welfare system with Polish doctors and nurses should be established for the Polish population at the Health Offices.
During my period in office as managing Medical Officer in Posen, until January 1945, no tuberculosis patients were 'liquidated' in the Wartheland as far as I know. I never received an order for such a measure, much less brought one about either directly or indirectly. On the contrary, the office always tried to give all tuberculosis patients proper treatment. Only in the summer of 1946, during my internment, did I learn that there is alleged to have been a concrete order from Himmler for the 'liquidation of incurable Polish tuberculosis patients'.
Then the signature of Dr. Oskar Gundermann and then the certification of this signature in the proper manner.
Q: Witness, in connection with this letter I must ask you, is this let in the draft of which Dr. Gundermann participated and which he mentions on a few occasions— is it the same letter which we dealt with time and again, dated November 18, 1942?
A: Yes, that is the same letter and I expressly declare that at no time were there any preparations made for any liquidation of Polish tuberculosis patients.
Q: That Dr. Gundermann confirms, too. With that I leave this chapter pass over to another chapter, euthanasia.
MR. HARDY: I suggest that Dr. Sauter give that an exhibit number and offer that last affidavit into evidence. He has not done that as yet.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you. This affidavit made by Dr. Gundermann will receive the exhibit number 8 — Blome No. 8.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel stated that when the exhibit was first offered. It is received as Defendant Blome's Exhibit 8.
At this time the Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 18 March 1947, at 0930 hours.)