1947-03-18, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

KURT BLOME — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant Blome):

Q: Witness, I would like to return to the last Document Book 1, Document No. 1308, a file note, and it reads there in the first sentence, and I quote:

At the beginning of September 1943 it was asked what protective measures were being taken against the use of bacteriological means Office Chief AWA should be informed of this.

You thought previously that AWA was the abbreviation for Allgemeines Waffen Amt, General Ordinance Office. I am now told that that is not so. It is Allgemeines Wehrmacht Amt General Wehrmacht Office. I should like to correct that for the record so that there is no confusion here. I now go to the document last mentioned here, Document No. 1309, Exhibit 326, file note from Kliewe on the 23rd of February 1944, about which you have already testified in part. Now, in this document there is mention of human experiments. You have already made statements on this subject. And then it reads there are mentioned experiments of human beings that you are supposed to have mentioned, you were speaking at that time about experiments on human beings to test vaccines, particularly vaccines against plague, that had to be carried out. What have you to say about this?

A: Yes, I spoke specifically only on vaccines against the plague. I did not mention any other vaccines, nor did that interest me greatly at that time. It was my thought at that time that such experiments should be carried out at Nesselstedt near Posen on voluntary subjects. After the necessary results had been achieved on experiments on animals, it would have been decided whether human being experiments were necessary at all. In the case of vaccines against the plague, the situation was that such vaccines had not been manufactured in Germany for decades, with the exception of insignificant production on the part of the Behring works in Marburg. The effectiveness of this war vaccine was doubted by the specialists; it was known that in practice, vaccines against the plague aroused very serious reaction, abscesses internal collapse and they were frequently poisonous. Consequently, I thought it was necessary to make clear just what vaccines could be used in Germany should it become necessary. For decades this field had been worked on only foreign countries.

The few institutes in Germany that were justified at all in working on this matter had only made use of this possibility or opportunity to the extent that they kept special laboratories ready to carry out the necessary diagnostic examinations should they become necessary. Amid special precautions enforced by the State, even the question discussed in foreign countries, whether the cultures for vaccines should be bred at 37 or 22 centigrade, could be answered by no one in Germany from his own experience. Since the discovery of vaccines against the plague by Kolle and Otto in 1907, only foreign countries had worked on the production of such vaccines and had developed such vaccines further.

That human being experiments are inevitable in this connection is proven by Strong's paper, Strong comes from Manila, works by Otten in the Netherlands East Indies and papers by a Frenchman in Madagascar; also recently works by Karl F. Meier in San Francisco, who carried out experiment on prisoners who had volunteered.

Q: In connection with this meeting, which I brought up, you spoke of experiments on human beings, which were to test our vaccines, particularly our plague vaccines; did you also at that time say anything about on what persons and under what conditions and with what experimental aim such experiments were to be carried out, and did you reflect at that time on the question whether such experiments at a later date might be objected to?

A: I did not have any reason to think about that or that the experiments at a later date would be objected to, because I would have only made such experiments as were permitted by scientific standards. But, as I said before, this work was never carried out, and our knowledge of plague vaccine remained at the same inaccurate level it occupied during the war.

Q: Mr. President, in this matter interesting scientific articles had been made available to me, which appeared in an American Medical periodical which carries the name "Philippine Journal." These excerpts from this journal are at the moment being mimeographed, they are English documents in the English language and these excerpts from the "Philippine Journal" I shall in evidence at a later date as soon as I receive them from the Mimeograph department.

This is scientific material from English and American sources to check on what the defendant Dr. Blome has just testified; that is to said I shall submit these documents later.

Witness, the Blitzableiter lightning conductor committee which has been mentioned here; were you a member?

Q: Was Professor Klieve a member?

A: Yes.

Q: Ministerial Dirigent Schumann was he a member or not?

A: I never saw him there, but one of his co-workers; I don't believe that he belonged to it.

Q: And who in addition belonged to the Blitzableiter [lightning rod] committee?

A: Colonel Hirsch as chairman, Ministerialrat [Ministerial Councilor] Dr. Standin, and two gentlemen from the Amy Veterinary Inspection, one by the name of Dr. Nage, a lieutenant colonel from the Counter Intelligence Service of the Wehrmach Professor Rose, and I believe that is all.

Q: Dr. Blome, you said that Professor Schumann, who has frequently been mentioned here, informed you in a conversation that there was news that in the field of biological warfare, on the enemy's side, supposedly on the Russian side, energetic work was being carried out; can you tell us anything about this information that Professor Schumann gave you at that time; can you tell me whether these reports were checked on, and whether later on they proved to be true?

A: These reports referred not only to Russia, but to all of our enemy including America and the other countries. The reports were given to us by the so-called Abwehr, a counter intelligence and espionage organization, was until 1943 was part of the Wehrmacht under the later executed Admiral Canaris and later was subordinated to Himmler. In other words, this was official information which according to my experience was usually correct.

Q: Is it true that particularly Professor Kliewe, who was a member the Blitzableiter committee, constantly delivered reports on the enemy's activities in these fields, and that in these reports there was always a repeated mention that our enemies in the east were carrying out poisoning experiments and infection experiments of infectious diseases?

A: That is correct.

Q: Can you tell us the details about these reports?

A: Such experiments in poisoning and from infections with a dangerous bacilli occurred in the previously Polish territory very often. A typical case was, for instance, that occurred in Posen, where Polish waiters were ordered to give leading personages through their food typhoid bacilli and they did so. They used for this fountain pens filled with typhoid bacilli and while they brought the food from the kitchen to the dining room, they squirted this bacilli into the food. Many other cases of poisoning occurred and I mention this only as an example.

In this connection, I might mention a lecture that Professor Wirth had held at the fourth meeting of the Consulting Physicians. I believe it is your intention Dr. Sauter to offer this material as a document.

Q: Mr. President, this lecture by Professor Wirt I cannot submit too since it has not been returned yet from the Translating Branch. I shall submit it to you later in supplementary volume 2, as Document No. 15. I cannot read the excerpt today because, as I said, the translation has not come back to me.

A: May I continue?

Q: I don't understand.

A: May I continue?

Q: Yes.

A: For this reason I wanted to have the maximum doses determined, and in this connection I should like to say that the reports I received about the enemy activities in the whole fields of bacteriology and toxicology were received from the aforementioned Professor Klieve and the aforementioned Lt. Colonel in the Blitzableiter Committee.

Q: Dr. Blome, a correction in connection with the plague vaccines vaccines that were to be tested. You spoke of living vaccines, is that so?

A: Yes.

Q: The word "living" did not come through in the interpretation. That should be added to the record, "living vaccines."

Dr. Blome, when one reads these documents which refer to biological warfare which were submitted by the Prosecution, one gains the impression that in this field preparation to defend against bacteriological warfare went on very slowly. It strikes me that by the time Keitel gave you your assignment in the beginning of 1942 and your official appointment by Goering in May of 1943, there is a lapse of time, almost a year and a quarter, and from the file note of Klieve on the 23 February 1944 which we heard about before, document 1309, it can be seen that until the 23rd February 1944 not even an answer had been received to the proposal which the Chief of that section made on 4th of April, that is almost three quarters of a year before then, and again on 19 October 1943, to the ordnance office. How do you explain the slowness that these offices showed in preparing to defend against bacteriological warfare?

A: Undoubtedly, this was in connection with the well known Fuehrer order, according to which all preparations for offensive bacteriological warfare were forbidden. If this had not been forbidden then you can be assured that great activity in this field would have developed, and that we should not have had such difficulties as we did have in our study of defensive preparations. Even Goering, who gave me my assignment, was not seen by me during the entire time I was assigned to do this work.

Q: With Hitler himself you did not speak on the subject of biological warfare at all?

A: No, I have already said I did not speak with Hitler at all throughout the war, and I emphasize particularly I received no instructions from him in the field of bacteriological warfare.

Q: Can you tell why this assignment to work on defense against bacteriological warfare was also a secret assignment?

A: Yes, I can. First of all the enemy was not to know the extent of our defensive measures, and secondly, the population was not to be worried. Those are the clear reasons.

Q: Do you know anything about why precisely you, Dr. Blome, were given this assignment regarding preparations to defend against biological warfare, and why this assignment was brought into any connection with the assignment of cancer research?

A: Yes, I can tell you very precisely about that. This idea was one of Keitel's who knew of my memorandum to Hitler regarding the cancer problem; which he had discussed with me in detail. At that time he said it would be expedient that my biological research assignment should run concurrently with the cancer assignment as secret.

Q: Witness, I should now be interested to hear from you, when was your work to combat biological warfare actually begun and what did it achieve? Was work done, and what was this work?

A: Roughly in May of 1943 I received a document informing me of my assignment as plenipotentiary of Cancer Research Reich Research Councillor. This assignment had taken place through Goering. Then in June 1943 I invited the Chiefs of the corresponding Wehrmacht departments to a discussion in Berlin, namely, the Army Medical Inspector Handloser, the Army Veterinary Inspector, Professor Schultz, and the Chief of the Scientific Office of the OKW, Professor Schumann. After I had informed the gentlemen who turned up of my biological assignment, I asked them for a report of what work had previously been done in those three sectors. This report was refused to me. Dr. Handloser and Dr. Schultz' deputy, Veterinary General Richter, told me on the contrary that they knew nothing of my assignment and that for this reason they could give me the information that this material was secret work. I then told Professor Menzel about this meeting, the Chief of the Managing Committee in the Reich Research Council.

Then in June 1943, Goering at my request, asked Keitel to tell the three branches of the Army to give me reports, and to state what the results they had and what new work they intended in his field of biological warfare. Then in August, 1943, I received Keitel's order, as Chief of the OKW, to this effect. I believe this order was dated June 1943, and it reached my hands in August. In other words, it took quite a while. This order provided that every two months the Blitzableiter Committee and I should participate in discussions on this question. Simultaneously with Keitel's order on the basis of the above mentioned Fuehrer order, I was told that all preparations for employment of biological warfare were forbidden. Thus it again became clear that these preparations for biological warfare were of a purely defensive nature, and were not for offensive purposes.

Q: Witness, you spoke previously of the fact that the order you received was designated as secret, but in the documents it can be seen that thought was being given even to having this matter reported in the press. Now, how could these two facts be reconciled?

A: I believe you are referring to Dr. Handloser's testimony on the witness stand, and as a matter of fact at that aforementioned Congress I did bring up the question of whether there should not be reports in the press regarding the danger implicit in an offensive effort on the part of our enemy in the field of biological warfare. This was, however, unanimously rejected.

Q: Now, Dr. Blome, so far you have told us only of conferences that took place as a result of this assignment. I should now be interested, and I must repeat a question I asked before, in knowing what activity developed in the period that followed in connection with this defense against biological war? What was actually done?

A: I shall be brief in this so that I do not use up too much time. I shall mention the essential matters. In the human sector or essential research work was carried out. I was satisfied with the necessary work in the civilian sector. These were exclusively measures to combat any infectious diseases which might break out, and I considered the regulations which had already been issued as sufficient.

If I had wanted to make offensive preparations then I should have had to make the necessary assignments for research. At least I would have had to agreed on this with the Physician General Schreiber, because Schreiber was the plenipotentiary for epidemics research. Regarding biological warfare per so I spoke with Schreiber on the 30 January 1945 for the first time, but I did not give to Schreiber or to any other scientist an assignment to carry out research. In the animal sector no essential research was carried out during my assignment.

My main efforts were directed toward the foot and mouth disease where I brought about increased production of vaccines and corrected the lack of a sufficient amount of vaccine. Moreover, I brought it about that in case of appearance of rinderpest, immediate work should be done in production of vaccines and the scientific work in that subject. In the botanic sector, my first efforts were directed toward having chemicals ready to combat insect pests, and the research into new methods of combating such pests. The latter matter was very important on account of the German raw material situation. There was sufficient knowledge already about insect pests. A special institution was working on the problem of the potato bug. There was enough machinery for the extracting of chemicals from the earth. However, I had a new disseminating machine developed which was to combat insect pests from airplanes on a large scale. The work to develop a method for combating a possible artificially effected spread of weeds had not yet been concluded. We spread potato bugs from airplanes in order to ascertain whether or not the potato bug could be dropped from great heights effectively. That, in summary, is the essential aspect of the work that was actually carried out.

Q: Dr. Blome, were these defensive measures, that is preparations for defensive biological warfare, had they progressed so far that Germany was in a position to defend itself in this field had it been necessary? Had this work developed so far?

A: No. Our defensive preparations were insufficient in this field.

Q: You told us before that you had had no conversation with Hitler, and had received no orders from him. From your previous interrogations, it can be seen that you must have had frequent discussions on these questions, in any case with Himmler. The first of these took place in July or August 1943 with Himmler. What was discussed at that time? Please limit yourself to the subject biological defensive warfare.

A: Himmler called me and told me that I had been given a very important job, and for that reason he wanted to give me his support. He had already given his earlier collaborator, Dr. Strasburger, the assignment to get in touch with me. Himmler asked me of my opinion regarding the possibilities of using biological means of warfare, and I explained to him the following: For the plant sector I told him of beetles for potatoes and for sugar beets and rape-seed, the plant from which margarine is developed, and a fungus for wheat. Himmler contradicted me about the latter, but told me, in his opinion, the greater danger was the potato bug. In the animal sector I mentioned the hoof and mouth disease and rinderpest and the hog plague. Himmler, however, thought that these could be combated essentially by vaccination. I told him that on the basis of International agreements the virus that brings about rinderpests and the hog plague could not be kept alive in Europe, and that only after such epidemics broke out could we begin to manufacture the vaccine.

Q: Dr. Blome, you said before that it was always your point of view that biological warfare could only be considered as a defensive measure, that is, if the enemy began against Germany. What was Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler's attitude toward this question?

A: Himmler asked me what my opinion was, and I told him that in view of Germany's geographical situation the consequences of such warfare would be devastating for Germany. If the enemy were well prepared and proceeded rapidly against the animals and plants — Germany's whole food production would be in danger and this would be contrary to promises made at the beginning of the war to the German people. Himmler opposed my point of view at that time regarding the existence of such a danger for Germany, but in later talks with him he admitted that I was one hundred percent right. In the talks in July or August 1943 Himmler brought the subject around to an offensive biological warfare on part of Germany and asked me what I thought of that. I answered that Hitler had frequently ordered that no new offensive preparation should be made in this field, and that in view of Germany's geographical and strategic position such warfare would be an incalculable danger to Germany.

The beginning of such offensive warfare would institute a boomerang that would strike Germany. I pointed out at this occasion that offensive biological warfare was impossible for Germany because we had not yet made sufficient preparations in this field.

Q: Is it correct that in this discussion which you had with Himmler in July or August 1943 regarding the problem of biological warfare, that he interested himself in the question of plagues? If so, why?

A: That is true. When Himmler asked about the dangers in the human sector, I named the various epidemics possible and also mentioned among them the plague. And Himmler explained to me that according to the reports, that had come in, the plague was possibly the greatest danger for Germany, objectively speaking because of the dangerousness of the plague itself, and also because of the psychological repercussions a plague would have in Germany. For centuries the plague had been regarded in Germany as the greatest affliction of mankind. Himmler told me on this occasion; by way of example, of events that had taken place in the Caucasus, that even SS troops had refused to march there when they heard that they were to enter areas infected with the plague. During this talk Himmler told me that we must, by way of human experiments, find an effective vaccine against the plague. He ordered me to think about how this could best be brought about. He told me then that he would offer me space and facilities in a concentration camp and he also told me that they had found a very effective typhus vaccine through experiments in Buchenwald.

Consequently, I should carry out plague experiments in concentration camps to find a good plague vaccine. Because of my spiritual repudiation of this idea I rejected this order. The fact that I did not want to enter the SS and thus be immediately subordinate to Himmler, also played a roll in this, development which otherwise I should hardly have been able to prevent. In order to deflect Himmler from these notion. I pointed out the danger of infection that would arise if experiments were carried out in concentration camps and pointed out the necessity of particularly isolated laboratories for such experiments which would have to be specially constructed. Nesselstedt near Posen seemed to me to be the appropriate place for this.

Q: Dr. Blome, from your previous answers it has not yet become clear to me how it was that Himmler came to interest himself in this whole problem. Was Himmler in any way competent for matters concerning biological warfare?

A: Certainly he was competent because he was not only chief of the German Police, in charge of all police measures, but from the practical point of view Himmler was also Minister for Health in his capacity as Reich Minister of the Interior which was legally in charge of health matters in Germany. That Himmler concerned himself so intensively with the plague problem is to be traced back to a pathologically exaggerated ambition on the part of Himmler. He wanted to be the one who would be held responsible for the successful combating of any scourge so terrible as the plague. I believe this also is the reason why Himmler so interested himself in cancer research. At any rate, at that conference with him that I mentioned he had me give him a summary survey of the status of cancer research. I stated my opinion about experiments on human beings in connection with cancer research and Himmler told me at that time that he was in favor of human being experiments in view of the importance of the problem. He considered the matter, of course, that for such experiments only common criminals should be used and namely, prisoners who had been condemned to death. Such criminals would, if they survived the experiments, be pardoned without further ado. That at least is what he said. In certain circles, to be sure, efforts had been made to have certain experiments carried out which he had arranged for under Rascher, but he told the office in question unmistakably that he regarded it as high treason to refuse to carry out experiments that were necessary for the war and he referred in this to an order of Hitler's expressing the same point of view. In connection with our discussions of the cancer problem, Himmler mentioned a certain Dr. von Luetzelburg who visited me later and who believed that he had found a means of combatting cancer in the root of a certain Alpine plant.

Q: Dr. Blome, some time later then there were further discussions between you and Himmler? What was the subject of these discussions?

A: The next discussion was roughly a month later. The reason Himmler asked me to visit him this time was that Dr. von Luetzelburg, whom I have just mentioned, together with Dr. Sievers and Rascher, had been sent by him to me. I myself had called Professor Holz to this discussion. It was here a question of testing the efficacy of this so-called Alpine vegetable extract. I and Holz were of the view that first of all this extract should be chemical analyzed and that before this question was clarified I should refrain from passing judgment on this drug. Only after the necessary analysis had been carried out should animal experiments begin. Professor Holz and I were of the same opinion.

MR. HARDY: Mr. President, I am not aware that the prosecution has charged the defendant with cancer research or anything involving cancer experiments that requires such a long explanation as this.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel's statement is correct. There is no charge against the defendant involving cancer experiments. The matter can be touched upon very lightly but a great deal of time should not be taken up in studying the defendant's activities along that line.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we are confronted here with a difficulty that confronts the other defense counsel also. We have received copies of the indictment and assume that the indictment contains particulars of what the individual defendants are charged with. However, in the course of the trial a series of other problems were brought up; namely, problems that were not even mentioned in the indictment, and we defense counsel were not sure whether the prosecution is also charging the defendants with these other problems.

For this reason, at the beginning of the Blome case and after talking with certain colleagues I brought up the question of what the prosecution intended to make of these further problems and the prosecution stated that all that was brought up in the course of the trial was to be charged against the defendant. That, at least, is how I understood it. Entirely aside from the fact whether or not these points were mentioned in the indictment. Now, I am not a bit sure whether, when I finish my defense tomorrow, the prosecution won't come to me and say: "Here in this cancer research and in other research there were experiments on human beings and, of course, these too should be charged against the defendant."

THE PRESIDENT: The prosecution has closed its case in chief and introduced its evidence. We have now not only the indictment, but the evidence in chief for the prosecution. That contained nothing that I remember concerning any charge concerning cancer research.

DR. SAUTER: Mr President, a number of documents were submitted which concern themselves with cancer research, and if the prosecution does not take the attitude that because of this cancer business and human being experiments in association with them charges should be raised against Dr. Blome, then I do not understand why these documents were presented at all.

MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, if the prosecution objects to the particular position taken by one defense counsel or another, defense counsel always batters back and forth and consumes the time that he could have used up in taking up that subject. I object to points in this case of Blome and each time the defense counsel comes back with a long argument. I have had the same discussion at least four times with Dr. Sauter to my knowledge, and I don't know how many times Mr. McHaney has had it.

I think at this tine we should ask Dr. Sauter to refrain from any more comments along these lines.

THE PRESIDENT: I would ask counsel for the prosecution if at this time he expressly disclaims any theory that the evidence for the prosecution in any way connects this defendant Dr. Blome with any alleged offenses in regard to cancer research?

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, let me say the following in this matter —

THE PRESIDENT: (Interrupting) Counsel, my question is propounded to counsel for the prosecution and the Tribunal would like to have his answer before hearing you.

MR. HARDY: During the case in chief for the prosecution we, at no time, introduced any evidence pertaining to cancer research and experiments resulting therefrom. We had intended, at first, to introduce such evidence but decided it would not be advisable, and we have, at no time, made a specific charge against the defendant Blome that he experimented or was involved in experiments or cancer research on human beings in a concentration camp.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the prosecution having made the statement which he just made and disclaimed any theory upon which this defendant could be charged with any offenses connected with cancer research, that matter is not a necessary, or even a proper subject for discussion save as it might arise incidentally in connection with some other matter.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, let me say one thing. It is very unpleasant to us defense counsel that every few minutes the prosecution comes up to the microphone and objects to the way the defense counsel is handling any specific matter. In this trial and in the IMT process I never remember a case where the defense counsel went up to the American prosecution and told them what they could submit and what they couldn't. I believe I am speaking now for all my colleagues when I say that it should be left to the sense of duty of the defense counsel to decide to what extent he wishes to interrogate his client and that the prosecution should not keep making objections to the way he conducts his case.

We, on our part, have never thought of objecting to the way the prosecution carries out his.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for either the prosecution or defense may always object to questions which are improper. They may also interpose objections to matters which they may deem entirely immaterial.

The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours; 18 March 1947.)