1947-03-19, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

KURT BLOME — Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION — Continued

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: At the noon recess, Doctor, I inquired as to whether or not you had read the last section of that particular subject concerning the lectures about was surgery, gas poisoning, and so forth, and my colleague, Dr. Hochwald, informs me that you have not. So, at this time, I'm going to ask that you will read this last Paragraph that I have now marked in blue ink. It goes on to page 266, Doctor.

A: I quote

I, as a former officer, was interested in the military training of all SA doctors. Under an agreement with the Commander of the Rostock-Reichswehr, Lieutenant Colonel von Tay, I ordered over one hundred SA doctors to come to Rostock for a whole week. Everyone were a uniform as they had during time of combat, at their own expense. The courses took place in the University clinic. From military surgery to the combatting of epidemic from gas poisoning to the tactics of medicine in general. Everything was discussed here. Military exercises were the conclusion, which took place in the neighborhood of Rostock with SA, in which SCH, the battalion physician, who was a friend of mine, took part.

Q: Now, here in your book, Doctor, you state that you received funds to build up medical units; that you participated in this secret army and you gave these lectures. Now, is it my understanding that your purpose in doing all this was only to prepare for an event whereby another country might attack or declare war on Germany?

A: Yes, that is clearly to be seen from the previous citation from their book in which it was actually set down in writing that our measures were taken in case we should be attacked. That is a result which is a matter of course in any country.

Q: What were your ideas along racial lines, Doctor?

A: Could I ask you please to ask me individual questions in this matter I believe that otherwise it might take too long.

Q: Well, we'll get to the core quickly, Doctor. You were decidedly anti-Semitic, weren't you?

A: May I ask what you understand "anti-Semitic" to be so that I may correctly answer the question?

Q: That you were in favor of any program instituted against the Jews.

A: I shall endeavor to understand your question correctly and to also endeavor to keep my answer brief.

In the National Socialist program there is one point that regulates the racial question. I, myself, had concerned myself with the racial question since the conclusion of the First World War, and I can now only honestly say the following. After the First World War I took a position against the extreme degree to which the Jewish population tried to participate in German life as a whole. I saw this extreme attitude manifested in the following. Beginning with the very first Soldiers' Councils there was hardly one in which there was not a Jew as a member. In the Revolution at that time the Jew took a leading and definitive role. In the reconstruction of the State that followed, again the Jew took a prominent part. In the entire political life of the Nation, in the economic life, in the financial world, in science, and in the cultural life and in the arts, a great number of the leading positions were occupied by Jews. This participation of the Jews, at that time, did not, to any degree, correspond to the proportion of Jews in the total German population. Nor was it ever my point of view that, for example, the Jews' participation in leading positions — in all these various positions that I just mentioned — should be regulated in accordance with the percentage of Jews in the total population. However, in Germany, the development was such that we could list numbers such as were also listed in my book — numbers relating to the intellectual life and to the position that Jews occupied in the free professions. Perhaps, if you will let me have my book for a moment, I can read these numbers out to you.

A: Don't bother, Doctor. Continue.

A: Yes. In the company of many others I saw this development as an extreme attitude on the part of the Jews which I thought should be legally regulated the way any extreme position must be regulated. The reaction against this took place in political life and always does take place. The penetration of the Jews into all leading positions was interrupted by the advent of National Socialism. National Socialism — and this I must mention here to make what I am going to say comprehensible — was so stupid and nearsighted that it, in its turn, behaved as extremely as the Jews had previously behaved extremely.

After this legalization I mention that should take place in politics and in the nation as a whole, of course it had to happen that the extreme behavior of the national socialist must in its turn arouse as great a reaction as the previous extreme behavior of the Jews and this reaction actually did become formulated as law, namely with consequences that could not be foreseen and which I shall refrain from describing here but which everyone in this room is familiar with. My attitude toward the penetration of Jews in Germany did not rest in any way on a feeling of personal hatred toward the individual Jew. I had too many good friends among my Jewish colleagues to allow that to occur and who later, in the period after National Socialism came in, I assisted. If I had known that the Prosecution would take up this theme I could have provided myself with affidavits that would have exonerated me of any feeling of hatred towards Jews. I can assert about myself, justly, that I did not know the feeling of hatred at all, not towards groups of people and not towards individual persons. The word hatred is a word that does not exist in my dictionary. My purely objective observations were supplemented by studies of a purely scientific nature and here too I should like to express myself briefly and refer to the father of race hygiene, the Englishman, Francis Gordon, who lived from 1822 to 1911, and who is known in the whole world as the creator of research into the problem of twins. He is really the father of race hygiene. Gordon was then joined by well known Americans. I am not mentioning this because I want to make the Americans responsible for race hatred in Germany but only because this is a historical development which I must outline, in the interest of truth. In America —

Q: Let us not concern ourselves now with the historical background of this particular subject. I will go on to a few quotations in your book and we will cover the ground much more rapidly. Now I note on page 25 of your book which is perhaps your first remark in connection with the Jews, in which you state that France, being then in the hands of the Jews, that is during the first world war, brought shame on civilization in that they promised negroes white German women and girls as a reward for bravery in battle. Now was that the your only reason for saying that the Jews brought shame on civilization?

A: I never compared the Jews with the negroes. That is a quite different race.

Q: You said that the Jews brought shame on civilization because they — the Jews — had promised white German women and girls as a reward for bravery in battle. Didn't you say that in your book?

A: It is a well known fact, which has been confirmed by a negro prisoner that they were promised white women as a reward after the victory. And to this I must say, quite openly and frankly, that I cannot by any means consider this just. I see in the mixing of two foreign races unhappiness for both races and Madison Grant, an American, has particularly pointed out this fact in his book — The Decline of the Great Races.

Q: And you were also of the opinion that the Jews were war profiteers, weren't you?

A: That the Jews were war profiteers I was not only of that opinion but I know it is a fact — that is a historical fact.

Q: Now have you ever made any anti-Semitic remarks, particularly in connection with the so-called unpolitical universities?

A: In my book I also dealt with the question of the universities and set down in my book to what a high degree German faculties were over-filled with Jews.

Q: I will have you read that section, Doctor, please — the two section which are marked in red pencil. Read those two sections on page 85 which are marked in red pencil.

A: Well, first of all, it says here:

Fresh Jewish kids who had avoided taking part in war, set the pace.

Let me remark in this connection that this was not an invention on my part but that was observation on the part of most of the German population from the simple German laborer to the intellectual, and if I should write a biography and if I were a chronologist, then I should have to describe events in the way that they actually were at any one time. I now quote further:

Here it was that I first came to know of the so-called unpolitical universities. Far from realizing a new only one goal — to cultivate science for its own sake, whether Jews or Germans, whether front line soldiers or malingerers, — in their life and in their activities there was not this difference. For then there was only one thing — to have an international reputation as great as possible. This attitude on the part of some of the universities was to be extended in the period that was to follow and was to produce the most strange consequences.

This paragraph that I have just read — I can only say of it that it is the pure truth so far as facts are concerned, but since this theme has been broached, please permit me to mention a few statistics in this connection.

Q: Just a moment, Doctor; before you mention those statistics turn to page 91.

A: 91, yes.

Q: I have marked there in red pencil where you speak of your deep hatred of the Jew. Kindly read that to the Tribunal.

A:

Under the motto 'Down with Capitalism' these Jewish characters paid homage to the owners of capital, otherwise they would not have been able to remain in the government. They were the frontline fighters for Jewry and helped the Jews to pass into foreign hands the last assets that the German people possessed. Whereas these groups, and I emphasize the words 'these groups; I despised because of their stupidity and lack of conscience, I, hated them also for their foreign nature which tried to assert itself within the German nation in order the better and the more effectively and the more destructively to exploit the German people. 'No More War' they cried to the people, reminded them of the horrors of the years just passed, but in secret they were in cahoots with the victors, with those who had run the blockade, and always conducted their dirty international deals, while the people, women, children, and old persons, starved by the ten thousands. When 200,000 milk cows were delivered and which, as I remember, took place in accordance with a provision of the Versailles Treaty and the doctors objected, a Jewish social democratic member of the Reichstag stated that this was a matter that did not concern the doctors at all.

Let me remark in this connection the following What I have just read here is set down clearly in black and white. That was the situation in Germany at that time, unfortunately though the case may be.

As a historian I described the circumstances as they were, and I myself, as I thought was right at that time, opposed these matters which I thought I had to do as a decent German.

Q: You also approved of ill treatment of the Jews, didn't you? Yes or no?

A: There is nothing about mistreating Jews in my book, nor does my book even mention, let alone demand, mistreatment. I consider any form of mistreatment as abominable, whether it is Jews or someone else who is being mishandle. Mistreatment is always abominable. I have never preached such a doctrine, nor have I ever taken up any such things.

Q: Now on page 125 you blamed the Jews for being the main profiteers in the inflation, and you say that they received beatings from members of your circle, when they committed something of that kind. You further state, on page 128, in connection with the trial of a Jewish professor who had been beaten, you state that you were called as a witness in the trial which followed the beating of this Jewish professor, and that you refused to answer question put to you by this professor's Jewish defense counsel. Did you approve of the beating that was given to this Jewish professor by one of your friends?

A: I can say only the following to that, if the same thing should happen to me that happened to this man who beat this Jew I would have done the same. What happened to him was this: this man's fiancee had been offended indecently by this officer, and whether this had been a Jewish professor or a German professor is of no consequence, but the man who indecently insulted my fiancee will take a beating from me whether a Jew or a German.

Q: First of all, don't shout. The interpreter can hear you. Was this beating of such importance that it should appear in the autobiography of one Kurt Blome?

A: No, and I have already said in this connection, if I am writing and book, and it appears to a certain extent as historical, then I must adhere as to the truth about that period, otherwise I can't throw illumination on that period.

Q: All right. Tell us about the Jewish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Rathenau?

A: You mean Rathenau, the former Foreign Minister?

Q: That is right.

A: Kern and Fischer, members of Erhardt Brigade, murdered Rathenau. Rathenau was a Jew and was foreign minister. This assassination of Rathenau aroused great interest, not only in Germany, but in the entire World at that time, and in connection with this assassination I stated my views quite generally on political assassination, and said in my book verbatim, that in general the political assassination should be repudiated. My point of view expressed in my book was quite clearly negative.

Q: You and your friends were rather gleeful about the assassination of Rathenau; page 131 you state in connection with the assassination of Rathenau that you and your circle were not sorry Rathenau was no longer Foreign Minister, being that type of an International Jew. Actually, Doctor, you were an accessory after the fact to the assassination of Rathenau, were you not?

A: That is an assertion on your part for which you cannot offer any proof whatsoever. I was not an accessory to this murder, which can clearly be seen from my book, now should I like to say what you just quoted, you said I and my friends were gleeful that Rathenau was murdered.

There is no single word that says that in my book. We said we were not sorry that we no longer had a Jew as Foreign Minister, but the assertion that we were glad that a murder had taken place was a discussion which in no way corresponds with reality, nor is it set down in black and white in my book.

Q: On page 132, first of all, Doctor, do you know what an accessory after the fact is? I don't believe you do. We will go on. On page 132 in the following you elaborately described how the murders of Rathenau the two men, Kern and Fischer, were protected and concealed by you and your friends; isn't that in the realm of an accessory after the fact of the murder of Rathenau?

A: No. That is quite clearly defined in the general German Penal Code. That means in the German Penal law, it means helping after the fact, and the maximum penalty for that is one year in prison. Therefore, the fact that I helped previous friends or comrades from the field and did not betray them, I could to be sure have been penalized with one year in prison but this has nothing to do with the planning or participation in a murder. The situation was as friends, I and my friends were at the time roughly 24 years old. We were old comrades and old front line volunteers. If these two of my comrades actually committed such a crime, then in view of this situation at that time I really could not make up my mind to betray these comrades of mine and to turn them over to the police. The reason for this is undoubtedly to be found in the whole political and economic situation at that time. It was pretty chaotic. From this point of view and also in view of my youth and in view of the fact these were my comrades, and in view of the chaotic conditions at that time, this whole matter must be evaluated and appraised. I can say now that I am older and more mature, and if such a thing occurred now I should not have helped those people. I should have shown them the door, but again I don't believe I should have actually betrayed them. That is something that I did at that time, I described it quite openly in my book somewhere, and that is still my position today, and I can adhere to that position today, because that was no act that in any way had to do with motives affecting one's honor.

Q: Then the only connection you had with the assassination of Rathenau was merely that you and your friends concealed from the police the murders, is that it?

A: Yes, we hid them, and helped, them along. That was the only connection we had with the murder.

Q: Did you ever attempt to commit all the jews to Jerusalem?

A: No.

Q: What was this little program of your you mention on page 167, wherein you state you distributed to all Jews in night clubs tickets in the form of railroad tickets, third class, to Jerusalem one way, but not back?

A: This took place not only in Rostock, but these tickets were distributed throughout the whole country. They were interpreted and construed humorously, also by the Jews to some extent. That is, my assistant at the Rostock Dermatology Institute also thought this was quite a joke. In other words, this whole matter is in the field of humorous politics, and should not be taken too seriously.

Q: Would you tell us what organization the Stahlhelm was, that is spe S-t-a-h-l-h-e-l-m-? This was a Nationalistic organization, was it?

A: Yes, that was a Nationalistic Organization of previous front line soldiers under the leadership of Duesterberg and Seldte, and after the ascension of Nazis in 1933 this organization joined the NSDAP or joined the S.A.

Q: Why didn't you join that organization, Doctor?

A: I preferred to join another organization with clearer goals, because the Stahlhelm had no specific clear attitude toward the racial question.

Q: That is right. Therefore, because they didn't take a clear cut line on turn racial question you didn't become a member of this Nationalistic Organization, Stahlhelm?

That is right.

Q: Your racial hatred, as I call it — you. say it isn't that didn't end with the Jews either; you didn't have much use for the Free Masons, did you?

A: The Free Mason question is not a racial question. In the Free Mason lodges there were not only Jews, but non-jews and other races. The Free Mason problem was not a racial problem in the same way that the question we have just discussed was a racial question, but it can be seen from the Free Mason literature, the international lodges are to a large extent under Jewish Leadership, and the customs and usages of the Free Masons lodges can be traced back to old Jewish customs. That is a historical fact.

Q: Now, Doctor, what was Ludendorff's Tannenberg-Bund?

A: Luddendorff's Tannenberg Bund was a nationalisitic organization which quite specifically took a point of view against the Free Masons publicly.

Q: You joined that organization, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: And you state as a reason for joining that organization that Ludendorff' s Tannenberg Bund was a racial fight against International Jewry, Free Masons, and so forth; what was your reason?

A: I didn't speak of any racial struggle. That was not a racial struggle. Rather Ludendorff defined his struggle as a fight against international powers. That is a historical fact again.

Q: What is your reason for being so opposed to the Free Masons?

A: I don't see why I shouldn't have been, because the role that the Free Mason lodges played was similar to that that the Jews played in Germany for that period.

Q: Then, as you state on page 210, you were sharply against Free Masonry because of its connection with the Jews; is that right?

A: Would you please repeat the question?

Q: I said, you state on page 210 you were sharply against Free Masonry because of its connection with the Jews; is that right?

A: I cannot remember that phraseology precisely, can you please show me the book?

Q: Certainly, it is marked with a red pencil, Doctor. Read it out loud.

A: I read aloud:

During my political activities in the years 1922 and 1923 I developed a sharp attitude against Free Masonry because of its connection with the Jews.

That is true and corresponds with what I just said, that all the usage and origin of the Feee Mason lodges can be traced back to the Jews.

Q: Now, in nearly every public speech you ever made, you delved into the racial questions at great length, didn't you?

A: No, I really cannot say that every address of mine contained a lot about the racial question. Before the Nazis took over, I frequently spoke at political meetings, those were election campaigns for various elections; in other words elections to be carried out according to parliamentary and democratic rules in which everyone could openly and freely state his opinion and that is what I did. In this connection I often said something about the racial question and said what my conviction was; that of course is true.

Q: Well now on pg 253 of your book you speak about your public speeches and that your major program was the discussion of racial questions; now Doctor, did you Kurt Blome, write an autobiography? There are many more famous men in the dock, they did not write autobiographies; what was your reason for writing an autobiography which contains nothing of benefit to medicine?

A: I should like to tell you that your assertion is not entirely correct. I don't believe that you could have read the book because if you had, then you would have seen that throughout the entire book like a red thread from the very first page on, there runs the theme of the physician's problems, and then you would have to see that entire chapters of this book are devoted purely to medical matters and that in reality I expressed opinion on all medical matters and all matters which effected the physicians in any way. Of course, we could discuss the question whether my point of view in this or that case was a good one and should be recognized, but that is a matter of opinion. Your assertion, however, that this entire book, and entire book, deals with racial political matters, is by no means true. When you ask me why I wrote an autobiography, let me tell you that I started with my eighteen years and an ending at the ago of fifty and I think it is dishonest if anyone represses in an autobiography everything that does not have to do directly with medical matters; but that this book is basically orientated toward medical matters, that can readily be seen through the careful reading of the book. The title, after all, is "The Physician in War-Time." If your assumptions were really correct, then I should have entitled the book differently, something like the old Nationalistic fighter, but it can be soon that my interest here is matters of medicine, matters of health and for that reason my title "The Physician in War-Time" is quite correct. You will also have to admit that from the medical political thinking, you cannot differentiate the racial question from that train of thought. Any doctor, in the whole world would agree with me on this.

Q: Now, Doctor, as I understand it, in 1938 your name appeared on the list to be awarded the Golden Party Badge; your name was stricken from the list by Hitler, wasn't it?

A: Yes.

Q: In 1943, five years latter you achieved the Golden Party Badge; after five years you were awarded the Golden Party Badge; weren't you?

A: Yes, the next time the Golden Party Badge was awarded I received it. Of the four whom Wagner recommended, only two were approved: thereupon Dr. Wagner objected and the Fuehrer said that he did not want any inflation in the matter of awarding golden party badges. I myself was not personally acquainted with Hitler, as I said earlier, so I was one of those who was not approved and then the next award, which was ten years after the Nazi's took power, I did receive the badge.

Q: Then, you exclude the possibility that I am correct in assuming that the reason you wrote the book, which you. wrote similar to Hitler's "Mein Kampf", the "Physician's Mein Kampf" was to show Hitler what a good little Nazi you you were and how you stood in the Jewish question so that you could got the coveted award; am I correct or am I wrong in that assumption?

A: I can assure you that you are wrong in that assumption that it was necessary for me to do anything at all to prove that I was a good little Nazi that I was a convinced National Socialist was known to everyone who knew me or knew of my name. I should not have had to write such a book to prove it or to receive an award of a party badge.

Let me assure you that I think much too much of myself to achieve that goal by writing a book. If you had personally read my book, then you would also have read what I said about the awarding of badges in general. Also let me say that a Golden Party Badge could in no way impress me, in view of the fact that I, as a young front line soldier, had received the Knight's Cross with Crossed Swords and the Hohenzollern Badge and had the badge for being wounded, so I did not have any need for that sort of party decoration.

Q: Now, Doctor, you have testified here in direct examination that the restrictions based on Jewish physicians were originated by the Ministry of the Interior and that the execution thereof was handled by the Reichsaerztefuehrer [Reich Medical Leader]; is that right?

A: No, not in that form, nor do I believe that I said it in that form. The whole regulation of racial political questions of a legal nature was the latter that concerned the Reichs Ministry of the Interior; the intention in that clause or to carry them out was taken care of here for the various laws in question, then the competent organizations of the party carried out the law.

So, in my opinion, after the Ministry of the Interior had passed certain laws, the implimented authority could only be the Reich Chamber of Physicians, or the Reichsgerztefuehrer [Reich Medical Guide] or Dr. Grothe, those were the channels as laid down by law and I cannot think of any other feasible way.

Q: Well, then, the execution or the administrative handling, whatever you may call it, of these restrictions which were placed on Jewish physicians was handled by Conti's office in his position as Reichsgerztefuehrer; wasn't l

A: Would you please repeat the question, I did not quite understand it?

Q: I stated that the execution and administrative handling of the particular restrictions placed on Jewish physicians was handled by the office of the Reichsgerztefuhrer; is that right?

A: No, not by the office of the Reichsaerztefuhrer, but by the Reichs Physicians leader, who in turn discussed this question with Dr. Grothe, the head of the German Insurance Company and then settled this matter with him. Afterwards he put me and some of my accomplices before the accomplished fact, but had I been asked before, I am sure I would have changed a number of things, but I don't think it is a question of debate here what I would have done.

Q: Now, Doctor, this particular program against Jewish physicians, which I will admit or accept as the result of the testimony of your witness, originated in the Ministry of the Interior and the execution of plans thereof were handled by Conti's office in his capacity as Reichsarztefuehrer; now, isn't it ridiculous to say that a man like yourself, who has exhibited such a keen interest in this racial program, that you did not concern yourself with this planned treatment of Jewish physicians?

A: No, it is not ridiculous at all, as you like to say. You may think it is, but had you known the situation as it existed with us, I am sure that you wouldn't consider it ridiculous at all. This is how it was: whenever any question regarding the settlement of Jewish physicians came up, the question of social insurance had to play a role. Every German who in any was employed and who couldn't dispose of a large amount of money was of necessity a member of a social insurance association, quite independent or whether he was a Jew or a non-Jew, a negro or a Japanese. In order to safeguard this social insurance, we had the social insurance companies in German Chief of which was Conti, and whose legal deputy in this sphere was Dr. Grothe. Now in connection with this activity of settling the problem of Jewish physicians, the settlement of the social insurance activity for the benefit of Jewish patients had to be discussed of necessity at the same time I was not at all surprised that Dr. Grothe was commissioned with doing that kind of work, who was the expert in that matter.

Q: Now, Dr. Blome, according to your own testimony, you were active the SA until 1936, is that right?

A: Yes, after 1936.

Q: Now you formed these various medical units of the SA only in your County of Mecklenburg, is that right?

A: Mecklenburg, yes. That's right.

Q: You had nothing to do with the overall formation of medical units for the SA, is that right?

A: No. In the year of 1936 to 1936, approximately over a year, I had been the group physician of the area Berlin-Brandenburg. I then resigned my office.

Q: Now, do you —

A: But there I already found organizations that had already been set up.

Q: Well, now, do you recall the testimony of Professor Leibrandt which is on page 1973 of the official transcript wherein Professor Leibrandt said that on the 1st of April, 1933, he unfortunately was obliged to experience the greatest disgrace of the medical profession, in that he saw his Jewish colleagues pulled out of their beds in the morning and mistreated other medical men.

The medical men were in SA uniforms, weren't they?

A: I heard that here. I heard this expressed by Mr. Leibbrandt? and if Mr. Leibbrandt testifies that under oath, I have no reason to doubt th correctness of that testimony. In that connection I can tell you that in year of 1933 when this happened I was living in Rostock and not in Berlin, and I can only state in that connection that in Mecklenburg no Jewish physician was taken out of his bed or in any way mistreated. At no time did I hear of it and certainly didn't cause any such action.

Q: In 1936 you left your position in the Red Cross, and at that time Wagner selected you as the Chief of the Fuehrer School of German Physician at Altrese and Mecklenburg, is that right?

A: No, not in that form. At first I didn't voluntarily leave the German Red Cross as I already said. Because of my —

Q: Just a moment.

A: — practice I left the Red Cross.

Q: Just a moment, Doctor. Let's not quibble over words now. In 1934 that is when Wagner selected you as Chief of the German Physicians School Altrese in Mecklenburg, is that right?

A: No, that is not right. I was never the Chief of the Fuehrer School at Altrese. The leader of that Fuehrer School was Dr. Deuschel.

Q: What was your position in the Fuehrer School at Altrese?

A: I had no position at all in the Fuehrer School of Altrese. In the framework of my entire tasks taking care of medical training and education Altrese was subordinate to me. It belonged to one of the organizations which was connected with the medical training and education.

Q: What is this school that you were Chief of that you mentioned o direct examination at Altrese?

A: I don't think I mentioned anything like that, and I certainly was not Chief of any school.

Q: Do you mean to tell me on direct examination you didn't mention school in Altrese for young physicians of which you stated that only a small amount of the doctors went and not one of these defendants ever attended

A: During my direct examination I stated that Altrese was under my charge. During my direct examination I stated that I was the only man ressible for the education, since Dr. Wagner is dead, and I furthermore state that I gladly bear that responsibility since whatever was taught and preach at Altrese was completely decent, orderly and medically ethical so that I need fear no attack from anywhere in medicine, and that is what I said ab this Fuehrer School in Altrese.

Q: Well, all right, didn't you state in direct examination that this post-graduate study for physicians, that that duty was assigned to you by Wagner to control that educational group, and then you at great length mentioned the school at Altrese?

A: Perhaps I could point out an error on your part. You are nixing two fundamental things. I was responsible for the German medical education which was given over to the German physicians as part of their duty on th basis of the law of 1935 by the Reich Chamber of Physicians. According that law, every physician in Germany apart from certain categories had to undergo a period of three weeks medical training every 5 years, and the Reich Chamber of Physicians bore the cost of that training.

Q: Wait —

A: That was the duty for five years. That had nothing to do with Altrese. This training was carried on at universities, at various large communal hospitals, hospitals of the various religious missions, Evangelic missions, Catholic missions. At any rate, it was carried on in such hospital which had good teaching material and also teachers. That had nothing whats ever to do with Altrese. That was the duty.

Q: All right, what was the school at Altrese?

A: The school at Altrese was a health political training course, medical political training course for the so-called medical fuehrers and the medical fuehrer reserve. Furthermore, dentists were trained there, pharmacy and midwives.

Q: Who had control over that school?

A: The direct superior of the school was Dr. Rehse, and the supervision was exercised by me, and I also had to bear responsibility for the school.

Q: Well, now, they the Fuehrer School of German Physicians at Altre in Mecklenburg was your responsibility?

A: Yes, that is what I said on direct examination, but I may correct one other thing which you mentioned in your question. The participation in the so-called courses at Altrese where at the most one hundred twenty-eight people participated was completely voluntary.

Q: I will get to that, Doctor. I will get to that. You wait till I ask you that question. Now Dr. Wagner gave you this job as supervisor of school at Altrese, is that right?

A: If I had been the supervisory leader at Altrese, I would have had to be stationed there. For that purpose we had appointed a head for that school. Altrese belonged within my entire sphere of activities. I didn't live at Altrese. I held lectures there quite frequently.

Q: Well, now then to clear a point up, it seems to concern you great that the Prosecution contends that attendance in this school at Altrese was compulsory. Now you will recall that the Prosecution's witness, Professor Leibbrandt, testified that he was not sure whether or not this training wa compulsory, and he stated in fact that a number of young physicians whom h asked about that matter had told him that they were not in attendance at your school. Now, then, to clear a point up, you mentioned this post-graduate study of all doctors which did not take place at Altrese. Was that compulsory? This post-graduate study of all doctors in Germany that you mentioned earlier and you say is not to be confused with the courses given a Altrese, was that a compulsory course?

A: Yes.

Q: I see. Well, then did the medical students in attendance at the school of Altrese have to belong to Party organizations?

A: No. Medical students participated in the courses of Altrese. The; were young physicians who had just about completed their study. These were courses for the benefit of students.

Q: All right, Doctor, when — did young medical men — did they be. these young medical men in attendance at the school, have to belong to any Party organizations?

A: No, that was not necessary.

Q: Well, isn't it true that if they didn't belong to the Party organizations or to the National Socialistic League of Students or Physicians th they were considered as suspects, and that if a student belonged to no organization whatsoever and then had the intention to take the State examination he had no other alternative but to join some Party organization? Did he?

A: I should like to answer that what Professor Liebrandt also said about that matter: when Professor Liebrandt was asked whether he deemed it possible that the attendance at Altrese was not compulsory, and that many more physicians had reported at that school than could be accepted there, Professor Liebrandt, according to my recollection, answered the following: I believe that the young person tried to get opportunities to progress, and in effect it was true that nearly all medical students in some way or other, tried to join a national socialist formation. There were very few who were not a member of any such organization. I think you could count them on your find

Q: How many young German doctors went through these courses, sponsored by this educational system under your jurisdiction, that is, how many men did you have in attendance at Altrese?

A: Well, as you are expressing the question in the latter part, you were correct. You asked how many actually visited Altrese, but before that you were speaking about the educational system. I am rather surprised at that, because you had ma.de similar mention before, education, sports, etc. which would have meant a military organizational character. That wasn't the question at all. These young people there weren't educated but they merely attended such courses and lectures in order to gain knowledge for the University. You couldn't give them on the basis of their curriculum, namely, about general subjects and official questions as they related to medicine. As to the amount of young physicians who attended this school, I think I can get that for you. According to my memory the school was completed around 1935, and I don't think any young physicians were in attendance then. Then courses started for dentists, older physicians, mid wives and pharmacists, which all together amounted to about five to six courses. Even if you think that there were approximately six courses, numbering. 120 men each, you would have roughly 750 men per year. Now thinking, of the year 1936, 1937 and 1936 and then only part of 1939 — 1939 not completely, because the war started the 1st of September, 1939, approximately you could arrive at a figure of the amount of people who attended, and that passed through Altrese. We really couldn't accommodate all who wanted to come because of so many reasons.

Q: I understand that. Now, doctor, you have stated just what I have been waiting for, the purpose of this Fuehrer school at Altrese, was to complete and round out the young doctors' education, to furnish what was necessary considering he did not receive that in medical school. Now you stated in an interrogation, among other subjects, not here on direct examination, but in a previous interrogation, that among ether subjects, you were also in charge of instructing young German doctors in political orientation What exactly did you teach them in Altrese in the line of political orientation?

A: This political orientation is public health orientation, and it is quite clear that I preached no opposition to the national socialist regime, that is quite obvious because at the time, I myself was a convinced national socialist, and there was no reason to hide my conviction in the least.

Q: Well, did that political orientation include the points of view which you so eloquently expressed in your book?

A: May I perhaps ask you what points of view you are referring to, because I am sure there are a few hundred different points mentioned in my book.

Q: Well, for instance, what did you say in your lectures about the life worthiness of individuals as applied to individuals of specific national or racial groups? Did you mention that at all?

A: The question seems to me so important and I would ask you to repeat that question once more in order to avoid any misunderstanding.

Q: In your lectures at Altrese, did you concern yourself with the life worthiness of individuals as applied to individuals of specific national or racial groups?

A: One word was translated as individual life value. I don't think that is quite correct, that is something that doesn't lend a correct sense to the entire question.

Q: Did you draw any racial lines in the course of your lectures at the school in Altrese?

A: With reference to the lectures that concerned the field of racial medical science and questions of heritage which were pursued on a completely scientific basis, we had a special professor who had a heritage research institute, and at this department which had international characteristics — it reached as far as America, this professor held purely scientific lectures on field of racial hygiene and heritage questions, as you could find it all even the world in all languages.

He held these lectures on a very objective and factual basis.

Q: Well, doctor, to what extent did you stress hereditary determination

A: Excuse me, I don't quite understand the question.

Q: Well, did you — I will re-phrase it, doctor, in another manner. We will get to the core quickly, and do away with this subject.

To what extent were your teachings responsible for the thwarting and distortion of gifted young German physicians, who without proper guidance performed the evil deeds which we have heard in this court room, and the terrific examples of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Ding-Schoeler?

A: The translation did not come through very well, but I believe that I understand the sense of your question. I had already stated before during direct examination that this chapter concerning experiments on human beings was never dealt with in Altrese. These was no reason to do that whatsoever, no reason to deal with any such questions. Moreover, our teaching, as it was directed towards all physicians, was based on general international recognize and valid ethical principles of the medical science at large. You will not be in a position, even if you could search for ten years, to get any person who attended Altrese to tell you that any evil word was said in that connection in Altrese or any bad example was set there, and that is the reason why I already stated here that I bear the responsibility for the school at Altrese, that I bear it alone, and that I like to bear it.

Q: Well, then you never discussed with your students at Altrese, or indoctrinated your students, along Nazi lines, that is, establish in the students a hatred for the Jews, or any other such Nazi policy, is that right

A: No, in Altrese, no policy of hatred was pursued, neither towards Jew in general, nor towards any people throughout the world.

Q: Then you deny that any of your teachings were responsible in encouraging German doctors to give interior service to the groups of people who for political, racial and religious reasons were deemed undesirable by the State and naturally were confined in concentration camps, is that right?

A: May I ask you to tell the interpreter not to translate "deny" with "ableugnen". I did not have the intention to deny anything; but I do have intention to put something right if it is wrong. Just generally I want to state again in connection with that question; in Altrese, neither by writing or by lectures, any subject was preached; which in any way could have formed the basis for any crimes performed in the future; as you seem to hint.

Q: Dr. Leibbrandt had a different view, didn't he?

A: Well, may I tell you in that connection that I don't hold the fact of your putting that question against you, but when speaking about the testimony of Leibbrandt I must say that I agreed to part of his statement. One has to state that neither Leibbrandt nor one of the people he spoke about attended this course at Altrehse. So, therefore, he cannot say anything positive about it. Whatever he knows he may perhaps only know from what he read in my book.

Q: Well, we will go by that, doctor. Now in your book you have stated, you have given your reasons for stating so in direct examination, on page 221 that sterilization is no shame, it is even not a punishment, it is a sacrifice which has to be borne by the individual for the future of his nation. Now you advocated this policy for Germany in order to secure healthy offsprings for the nation, is that right?

A: Not I personally. The law did not originate on my initiative. At the time the law was issued I had no influence on it whatsoever. I must state, however, that the basic tendency of this law is absolutely correct and found approval not only at home but also abroad. Other states who have accepted that law have created their own sterilization laws. I know of the United States — that there was some legislature in some states of that nature. I think that since 1945 it is said to apply to the entire United States. That is I certainly couldn't check while in imprisonment. The aim of sterilization is to avoid getting unhealthy heritage into the people and therefore creating a healthy breed.

Q: What is your point of view concerning abortions, doctor?

A: Abortions? It is my opinion that abortion is a punishable act. In Germany there are valid laws in that connection which go back to the time of the Monarchy, which also go back to the time of the German Republic under the Weimar constitution and continue into the period of National Socialism. At all those times abortion was punishable in Germany and I think that is quite correct.

Q: Well, then you think that abortion would be a crime against the nation in that it denies the fatherland of healthy and numerous offsprings?

A: Yes. That is my point of view. I think that abortion is a crime against the fatherland.

That is my opinion.

Q: Well, in your position in the Reich Health Office as deputy to Conti did you ever receive decrees or orders which were given out by Conti?

A: This question is put in such a general way that I can hardly do anything with it.

Q: Well, I will break it up for you. Did you have occasion to see every order that Dr. Conti issued in his position as Reich Health leader?

A: You mean whether I had the opportunity to see these orders or define my position toward this.

Q: I asked you did you have the opportunity to see each order that Dr. Conti issued, in his capacity as Reich Health leader here?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you have an opportunity to see a great many of the orders that were issued by the office of Conti in his position as Reich Health leader?

A: It is not easy for me to answer that question because I don't know what orders Conti issued in his capacity as Reich Health Fuehrer. You must consider that Conti in his position as Reich —

Q: Let's not go into that, doctor. I understand fully the capacities of Conti. Did. you ever discuss with Conti the question of abortions?

A: No discussions were necessary. That was an opinion which was quite clear to all physicians as a matter of course.

Q: Did you ever discuss the question of abortions with Conti in the case of female Eastern workers — not German people?

A: Yes. I —

Q: What Were your discussions, doctor.

A: This is what the matter was about. Conti, apparently in collaboration with Himmler, had the intention to carry out as many possible abortions in the cases of pregnant Eastern women. In this connection a plan was taken under consideration which would make abortion compulsory. I resisted this plan very vehemently, and very soon afterwards a ruling was made by Conti in agreement with Himmler according to which abortions in the case of Eastern workers was permitted whenever they desired them. Certain formalities were provided in that connection so as to prevent the misuse of such abortions. The expert dealing with that question was a Munich gynecologist with whom Conti discussed these matters in detail and I remember that on the basis of my Objection against these compulsory abortions Mr. Conti gave the order that in the future he, Conti himself, should be contacted and I should be left out of these questions.

That resulted from my objection and also the fact that these abortions were not compulsory.

Q: Were you aware of the fact, Dr. Blome, that the Reich Health leader's office issued a decree or an order to the effect that the unborn offsprings of Eastern workers should be done away with?

A: Well, may I express the question in a different manner so as to avoid a misunderstanding. You are saying that Conti has issued an order to carry out compulsory abortions in the case of Eastern women. Is that right?

Q: That's right. You know that?

A: No I don't know it and I don't think this order was issued.

Q: Well, to refresh your memory I will show you the order, doctor. This is document NO-190. It will be Prosecution Exhibit 461 for identification.

JUDGE SEBRING: Is that number 461?

MR. HARDY: That is Prosecution Exhibit 461, your Honor, for identification. Will you kindly give the witness here a German copy?

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Now, will you turn to the last page of this document, Dr. Blome, the last page.

A: If you want me to answer exactly —

Q: I just want to have you turn to the last page of this document. Now you will notice there the sentence:

I have been informed recently, that abortion on pregnant Eastern female workers may be performed. This communication was made to me confidentially. I would like to got more definite information, as this question may also come up here.

Now, if you will turn to the next page.

A: The translation didn't come through. Will you please repeat your question?

Q: Does the Interpreter have a German copy of this document?

INTERPRETER: What paragraphs it?

MR. HARDY: The last page, the last paragraph. I will repeat it again.

I have been informed recently, that abortion on pregnant Eastern female workers may be performed. This communication was made to me confidentially I would like to get more definite—

(interrupted by Dr. Sauter)

DR. SAUTER (Defense counsel for the defendant Blome): Mr. President, I am in a dilemma, so to speak, for I really don't know what the defendant Blome is being accused of. For the last two hours I assumed that he was accused because he became a member of the National Socialist party or because he was a National Socialist. Then for another half hour I assumed that he is being accused of having founded a National Socialist Fuehrer school for young physicians and supervised it, but now it is ny impression that it is the task of the defendant to answer to this American Tribunal because he allegedly participated in acts of abortion. That is completely new to me and it is quite new to me that this Tribunal should have to judge about alleged acts of abortion. That is just a question of procedure. Now, Mr. President, something is being submitted to us; something which does not bear an address, does not have a date and has no signature. That, gentlemen, is nothing at all. With that the defendant or the defense can do any thing. If documents have to be submitted as evidence in this surprising manner at a time when, for days and weeks, the prosecution's case has been concluded against the defendant, I must, at least, ask that the defendant and the defense counsel bo given a photostat copy according to which it could be seen where this document originates, what date it bears, to whom it is addressed, and who actually did sign it. I object to the evaluation of this kind of document and I ask you to reject it.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel's objection is well taken. The document which has been furnished to the Tribunal is simply dated at Zell, 27 November 1943. It does not show where it came from, by what authority, who issued it or what it is.

MR. HARDY: This document purports to be notes and fragments of reports by one Koblonz in May or November of 1943. This was a document which was a captured German document. Some of it is written in the back. It seems to be mimeographed notes of the SS offices and it is, as I said, fragmentary evidence of a report captured by the French. I will turn it over to the Tribunal for their perusal.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in that connection may I say that if any such piece of evidence is submitted I must demand that the submitted copies are at least complete. In my copy there is no signature while there seems to be a signature on the original.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. The original should be submitted to Counsel, or photostatted copies, so it can be studied. There should also appear the purpose of any cross examination of this defendant in connection with this document. He could be asked if he had ever heard of it, but it should be clearly identified to him before that can be asked.

MR. HARDY: The purpose of this document, Your Honor, is to show that the Health Office, the Reich Health Office, in which the defendant Blome was Deputy to Reich Health London Conti, was involved and issued a decree concerning the abortion of Eastern female workers. That is my purpose in introducing it and in bringing this subject up to the defendant, to see if he has any knowledge of it in his capacity as Deputy.

THE PRESIDENT: Can you, this evening, submit the photostat or show the original to the Counsel and again make your offer in the morning?

MR. HARDY: I'll do that, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. Will you hand me the original of that, please.

JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, do you maintain that his thing you have handed up here is supposed to be some kind of a decree?

MR. HARDY: No, I maintain that this mentions a, decree issued by the Reich Health Office. You will note, Your Honor, on the next to the last page, the sentence in the second paragraph in the middle

In this connection it must be mentioned that the decree of the Reich Chief for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) concerning the interruption of pregnancy on Eastern female workers is in general willingly complied with. Thus, in the district of Simmer out of 10 reported cases of pregnancy, 6 have been interrupted successfully.

Now, my purpose in introducing this is to find out whether or not the Deputy of this office that issued the decree had any knowledge of it.

JUDGE SEBRING: What do you maintain this thing is?

MR. HARDY: I maintain this is fragments of a report. On the back of the first page you will note that it is an original captured document on certain stenciled paper of the office of an organization named Koblenz.

I will endeavor to get this photostatted or I will turn it over to defense counsel and he nay examine it this evening and we will go on with it tomorrow, Your Honor.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to something else so that Mr. Hardy can consider this other objection until tomorrow. I have just head that there is mention in this document about a report which was made by a certain "V.M." V.M., according to my knowledge, is the abbreviation form confidential agent belonging to the Security Service (SD) which was indicted as a criminal organization during the International Military Tribunal proceedings here in this very room, and it is a matter for the prosecution whether they want to rely on the report of a confidential agent belonging to a criminal organization. I, personally, would not do that.

MR. HARDY: I have not comment, Your Honor.

WITNESS: Perhaps I can clear up this question and perhaps I can clear it up very quickly. In my opinion, this concurs absolutely with what I have said before when this fragmentary document was submitted to me. I said that those abortions were tolerated; that they were voluntary and, in my opinion, that is the best confirmation for what I have stated before and it says here, word for word:

Thus, in the area of Simmer, in the case of 10 pregnant women, 6 had been interrupted successfully.

This shows quite clearly that we are concerned with voluntary abortions, for if they had been done by force, not only 6 would have boon interrupted, but all 10.

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: We'll go into that question later in detail.

Now, Wagner, your first superior, was Reichsaerztefuehrer [Reich Physicians Leader] and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer [Reich Health Leader] from 1934 until his death. Is that correct?

A: No, that is not quite correct. Dr. Wagner was never Reich Health Leader. The position of Reich Health Leader was only created after Wagner's death. That was in April, 1939. Up to that time there was no such position.

Q: Then, Dr. Wagner did not hold a position as Secretary of state for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?

A: Yes, that is right. This position was held by Ministerialdirecktor [Minsterial Director] Dr. Guettgen up to eight days before the outbreak of the war. The Dr. Guettgen was relieved by Dr. Conti and this position was promoted to a position on the level of a Secretary of State.

Q: Well, then Dr. Conti succeeded Dr. Wagner only in that capacity of Reichsaerztefuehrer. Is that right?

A: Yes. Reich Physicians' Loader and Reich Leader of the Public Health Office of the NSDAP.

Q: That is not to be confused with Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer? I am talking now about Conti. When Conti succeeded Wagner, Wagner had only one position — Reichsaerzetefuehrer? Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. Is that right?

A: We, Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. The concept of Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer was only created after Wagner's death. Wagner was, first, Reichsaerzetefuehrer (Reich Physicians' Leader) — that is, the head of the Reich Chamber of physicians, and secondly, he was the head of the Main Department for Public Health of the NSDAP. Thirdly, he was the head of the National Socialist Physicians' League. Wagner held no state position.

Q: All right, then Conti succeeded Wagner in all those capacities. Is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Well the, it might be said that after Conti took over office, Conti held only three positions, that is, three titles — Reichsaerzetefuehrer, Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer and Secretary of State for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?

A: Yes, that is correct, with the limitation that Conti didn't become Secretary of State in the Ministry of Interior immediately after Wagner's death but only in August, 1939 — that is, a few months later, and, that furthermore, in 1932 Conti became the head of the civilian health system under the jurisdiction of Brandt.

Q: Well then, Dr. Wagner and Dr. Conti were your superiors in your position as Deputy to each man. Isn't that right? You were Deputy first to Wagner and then you were Deputy to Conti?

A: No, that is not correct. I had not been Deputy Reichsaerztefuehrer before that. That was a position held by a certain Dr. Bertels.

Q: Well, the, you first title Deputy came when Conti took office. Is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: I see.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I am going on to the subject of euthanasia now and this might be a good breaking point.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(A Recess was taken until 0930 hours, 20 March 1947.)