1947-03-20, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

DIRECT EXAMINATION OF THE WITNESS, H.C. PIECK (Continued)

BY DR. GAWLIK:

Q: Where did Schalker work in Buchenwald?

A: Just a minute please. Schalker — We arrived together, off the same transport, at Buchenwald. At first, Schalker worked on some bad detail, as was customary. I don't know exactly — street sweeping, road construction, or something out he was put in the Gustloff Works rather soon on some metal working detail. But he was also on the list — the NN list, and in order to keep him off the transport for the first time he was sent to — I don't knew the any more — some Junker factory in Central Germany. But that was not enough to keep him off the transport because he and another Dutchman together were called back by the SS and when he came back to the camp he was to be sent to Natzweiler. With the aid of the political prisoners, and certainly with the knowledge of Dr. Hoven, Schalker and his comrade were listed as sick and as in Block 46 as typhus patients, to avoid their being on transport. In the Block 46, Schalker stayed. Later he was a nurse or he worked in the laboratory, as a laboratory assistant until the liberation.

Q: Will you please read Schalker's testimony through once more?

A: I have not been able to find it yet. Can you please tell me the page?

Q: Page 15 and 16. Page 14 in the English.

A: Yes, here it is.

Q: And now, if you consider that Schalker was working on Block 46, does nothing strike you in this testimony of Schalker's? Just keep this fact in mind.

A: The word supply?

Q: No, please read on page 16 what Schalker says about the typhus block.

A: The typhus block?

Q: Yes. What does Schalker talk about? Does he talk about the typhus block?

A: No, he did not say a word about it.

Q: If Defendant Hoven had anything to do with the typhus block then could one assume that Schalker would have said something about that?

A: I would assume so, yes.

Q: What was the medical care which Dr. Hoven gave? Do you share the opinion of Schalker? Look at his testimony. Just tell us your opinion and the opinion of the political prisoners about the medical care.

A: Well, the medical care in the camp, doctor, was, of course, not adequate. I do not know how many, I think there were about 2,000 beds, perhaps not even that many; that was only in the last period. But how many thousands of patients we had. And at the end, when the people came from Auschwitz and Grossrose, when the eastern front approached, then there was great misery in the camp.

Q: Witness, we are not interested in the last period because the defendant Hoven was not there.

A: Well, then, I can only say that the medical aid in the camp in the beginning was given only by laymen. Locksmiths carried out operations and amputations and appendectomies and all kinds of things. Of course there were very many victims but there was no other choice because the medical care available was absolutely inadequate. In my opinion it was one of the great things which Dr. Hoven did, that he had doctors who were forbidden under German law to give aid to their fellow prisoners, that he used these doctors in the hospital, not as doctors but he had them listed as nurses: and so he introduced a great improvement in the medical treatment in the camp. Of course the facilities were very limited and Dr. Hoven could not telegraph to Berlin for 3,000,000 marks to build a big hospital for his camp. Everyone can under stand that.

But it is my opinion that he did what was possible at the time under the circumstances.

Q: Do you know that prisoners were killed with the knowledge of Dr. Hoven and in some cases were killed by Dr. Hoven?

A: I believe so, yes. I was never present and it is, of course, difficult to say although as one learns of things because one has such a function I think I can say yes.

Q: Did you write a letter to the head of the Second Section of the Dutch Ministry of Justice concerning these killings?

A: Yes.

Q: When did you send this letter to the Dutch Ministry of Germany?

A: About 2 months ago, 1½ or 2 months ago, I think it was 2 months.

Q: Will you please tell the Tribunal what you said in your letter to the Dutch Ministry of Justice about these killings?

A: I will read a small extract from it. It begins:

In this function I had the opportunity

— by "this function" I mean as a responsible man in the camp committee —

I had the opportunity to see the inner organization at Buchenwald and the organized resistance and sabotage and to learn more than my fellow prisoners. For reasons of conspiracy it was impossible for them to see and understand this enormous underground activity, what great improvement were given to our general situation, and the climax was our own liberation. In this heroic struggle the most reliable part of the prisoners were later included. Dr. Hoven helped us to realize the conditions in such a way that they left room only for the thought of conscious deliberate collaboration. In any case, all his actions were deliberate on our behalf against the Greens and often against the SS. Everyone who knows the situation must understand that these actions were very often rigorous and must be considered within the framework of war and life in the camp. The liquidation of many Greens and several SS spies within the camp may make Dr. Hoven, in the eyes of many people, a murderer. For me and for others who understand the situation, however, this makes him a soldier on our side who risked a great deal.

I believe this extract is what you want.

Q: What persons signed this letter in addition to yourself?

A: This letter was signed by Scogers, the City Councillor of Amsterdam and Mr. Dreering, Section Chief of the State Institute for War Documentation in the Hague, both people who were in Buchenwald as long as I was. I should like to add that we were organized in Buchenwald by political groups. The representative of the Catholics, Jan Robert, one of my good friends with whom I collaborated from the beginning in the hospital and later in Block 50, a man who had a parallel career in the camp to my own, everything with the personal aid of Dr. Hoven,—was also to sign this paper. When I asked him to do so he said "No, I will write a similar letter in English myself." But now I do not know whether this statement was ever sent in because, unfortunately, Jan Robert was killed about six weeks ago in an automobile accident. Otherwise I would not be here alone in this unusual position, as an ally in the defense of someone who belonged to the SS, our Jan Robert would have been here too.

Q: What can you say about the number of these killings?

A: I believe that isn't possible to give a correct answer. I would not trust myself to give such an answer?

Q: For what reason?

A: I believe that is due to the element of conspiracy which surrounded those matters.

Q: When was the Buchenwald Camp turned over to the United States Army?

A: On the 11th of April, 1945.

Q: What happened to the members of the SS who were in the camp?

A: I have already said they were taken prisoner by the prisoners and turned over to the American Army.

Q: And what happened to the Defendant Hoven?

A: Hoven was outside of the camp. He was captured by the American troops. I heard this, I did not see it myself. He was taken to the camp and a Jew named Cohen, and other prisoners, went to the Americans and made it clear to them that this was a mistake — "That man is in SS uniform but he belongs to us." The prisoners worked for him and in Block 50 we took Dr. Hoven in and took care of him.

On the next day the Americans ordered us to turn him over and of course we put him in their hands.

Q: What were the motives for which the Defendant Hoven collaborated with the illegal camp administration and with the representatives of the various nations?

A: I believe there were various motives. Sometimes it was sympathy with certain people, we have to acknowledge that, but in general, motives on a level with the illegal camp administration of political prisoners, so to speak, in an anti-Fascist front.

Q: Did the defendant Hoven cooperate with the Illegal Camp Administration or the representatives of the various nations for reasons of corruption?

A: It is sometimes asserted by people who do not understand the situation well enough that Dr. Hoven had profit from the prisoners, perhaps in my case, for instance, I am a painter. I painted all of his family. One could say he exploited me. I don't say that the first place Dr. Hoven was a man who was willing to live and let live, and in the second place he had me make paintings and portraits for certain diplomatic purposes in order to achieve something for the prisoners with high persons. So that I am absolutely opposed to the conception that Dr. Hoven helped persons for reasons of corruption. There is other proof for this. In Buchenwald, thanks to Dr. Hoven, I lead an endurable life, and I was a person from whom Dr. Hoven got something back. I was glad of this, but from most people he helped, for instance the glass blowers, or young people, who were sport teachers, and a Jewish architect whom he helped, Max Fuerster, from Frankfurt/Main. There were numerous people whom he helped from whom he never got anything in exchange. That is my answer.

Q: What do you know about the political attitude of Dr. Hoven toward the Nazis while he was camp physician?

A: Unfortunately, I can not tell you anything about that. I believe that Dr. Hoven was an anti-Fascist, to judge by his actions, but the situation in Buchenwald did not permit it, and Dr. Hoven's strong point was diplomacy. That is another reason why we never got anything definite from him. But if you will permit me to tell a little story about the life around Dr. Hoven, I believe that will throw a little light on his personality, As I said, I was theoretically employed as a nurse in the camp. In the ROT I had a room where I lived along, in the beginning, and later with a few doctors, and I painted. I made oil paintings and drawings and I worked more or less freely. In 1942 Dr. Hoven had his wife and children brought to Buchenwald outside of the camp in the troop hospital, and Dr. Hoven took me out of the camp in a doctor's suit, and as it was possible he introduced me as a doctor there in the troop hospital, and they gave me a room as a work shop, as a studio.

I was there and I knew his wife and his children and his mother there. I must say that my memories of these people are among the most valuable of my life. I would never have considered it possible at that time to be quite en famille with a woman and children who treat one normally as in normal life. That is quite in contrast with the children of the other SS officers who only cursed the dirty prisoners. And I met his wife and his mother, whom after sometime when they realized they could trust me, we discussed Hitler and the Nazis in the same form as we did in the camp among the political prisoners. I must mention that Mrs. Hoven at this time, that is when Germany was still fictorious on all fronts she tell me the English news which she had heard on the radio every evening and I was to pass it on in the camp. And his mother was a very decent elderly woman. She always spoke to me to the same effect. Another example is a Fraulein Dr. Gabrielle Krebser, a friend of Dr. Hoven, whom I was painting outside of the camp with whom I had extensive political conversations, and who was an outspoken Nazi hater; and I made an illegal painting of conditions in the camp which I cut in pieces and smuggled out of the camp, and I gave it to this woman to keep until later when everything was over. Whether this painting, whether Frau Dr. Krebser, who lived in Stuttgart still exists, I can not say, because the city was badly hit. Another example is a professor from Freiburg, an old gentleman, a nationalist or an old central German, I don't know exactly what he was, but at least he was an opponent of Hitler's a very nice old gentleman who knew nothing about what was going on in Buchenwald, and then Jan Robert, and I told him about conditions in Buchenwald. I assume if the family of a man like Dr. Hoven and his close friends all are discovered to be anti-Nazis, there is little other possibility for him. but I am not sitting here to make conclusions.

Q: I have three final questions by way of summary. On the basis of your daily meetings with the defendant Hoven, did you have extensive knowledge of his personality?

A: Yes, a fairly good knowledge.

Q: Were all of the endeavors of the defendant Hoven directed toward helping the political prisoners, particularly the non-German prisoners?

A: Yes, certainly.

Q: On the basis of this personal knowledge do you trust the defendant Hoven, do you believe the defendant Hoven could have done any thing toward prisoners which was not to support the political prisoners in their fight against the professional criminals and which wore not necessary to preserve the life of the political prisoners?

A: Seen from within the framework of conditions at Buchenwald and the war situation, I believe not.

Q: Have you anything to add to this testimony?

A: No, not really, but two small points I should like to mention, if I may. It is really only one thing all together. My presence here seems very peculiar to me, Doctor. I would never have considered it possible myself, since long before the War I was always on the Democratic and the anti-Fascist front, and later became a victim of the Nazis when they came into Holland. After more than four years of imprisonment and everything that my wife suffered, and so forth, I say I would never have considered it possible to come here to Nurnberg, to sit on this chair in the defense of an SS man, but I believe I can say that it is praise of the Democratic and objective manner in which you, the American Tribunal, administer the law quite in contrast to what we experienced in the Third Reich, that I sit here and can speak and that I have the feeling that I am helping you, that I am on your side to help you to administer the law objectively. I thank you.

DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel desire to propound any questions to this witness?

DR. FLEMMING: Dr. Flemming for the defendant Mrugowsky.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: Witness, you were in Buchenwald for sometime in Block 50?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever hear the name of the defendant Mrugowsky there?

A: Yes, frequently. If I remember right he was Dr. Ding's superior, who was the head of Block 50.

Q: In what connection did you hear the name Mrugowsky?

A: He was the chief — what do you mean?

Q: Did you see Mrugowsky in Buchenwald?

A: I can't say for certain, I don't believe so. Mrugowsky was a sort of mythical theme to us, there were many people with nice uniforms who came from Berlin in fancy cars. We had to polish and clean everything. We did not always know the names of the people, but it is possible that Mrugowsky was there once, but to my knowledge I never saw him. I only tell you that the term Mrugowsky was a very special one with us. Mrugowsky meant that we had to polish; that was always the threat that the Capo used, Mrugowsky is coming tomorrow, or he is coming this after noon, then we had to polish, polish, polish and everything had to be as clean as possible. This is as much as I knew of Mrugowsky.

Q: Then he was always used as a threat to make you polish things; but you did not see him?

A: I don't believe personally and that I ever saw him, I don't believe so, but I cannot say positively.

Q: Then I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to be propounded to this witness on the part of any defense counsel?

There being none, the Prosecution may cross-examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Mr, Pieck are you considered a painter of some reputation in Holland?

A: Modesty forces me to limit myself, but I think I can say yes. As evidence, I could give you my book of drawings at Buchenwald, which is well known in Holland.

Q: Pardon me a moment, witness, do you desire to testify in English?

A: Well, I would prefer speaking in English now if you don't mind.

Q: Will you change the channels so he will get the English on his ear phones?

A: I only hope you will pardon my English, it is not so good as I have not spoken English in about eleven years.

Q: Have you make your livelihood through portrait painting?

A: I beg your pardon, I didn't understand it very well. Maybe I can arrange it so that I can listen to the German earphones and I will reply in my bad English.

Q: Maybe it will be better if you will continue to testify in German Mr. Pieck, I think it will be quite satisfactory.

I repeat my question; have you made your livelihood through portrait painting?

A: No, evidently not to a large extent, but may I have an illustration? I am an architect for foreign exhibitions and that is my real job. For example, now I have no time to lose because I am working on an agricultural exhibition for the Government and am needed there.

Q: Now, you painted, according to your testimony, a portrait of Hoven and his family; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: You also painted portraits of some of Hoven's friends; is that right?

A: Friends of Hoven; yes, yes.

Q: Now did you ever see Hoven kill anyone, Mr. Pieck?

A: No, never.

Q: Did you ever occur to you that Hoven may have killed people; that is people other than these selected as political prisoners?

A: As far as my knowledge goes, I do not believe that he did.

Q: Were you aware of the policy within the Third Reich that people who were unable to work, were useless eaters and in concentration camps they were usually exterminated?

A: I, personally cannot say that. I assume that it existed; the worst thing, that human beings can imagine existed in concentration camps in Germany.

Q: You never discussed any of the activities of Hoven in connection with these inmates who reported to the hospital in such a physical condition they were unable to work?

A: I, certainly not.

Q: Then, it is possible that Dr. Hoven could well have administered phenol injections to such people without your knowledge; wasn't it?

A: Such a thing is of course possible, but I would not consider it possible. I cannot say, I was never there.

Q: Were you ever in Block 46, witness?

A: Yes, of course.

Q: Did you ever see Hoven in Block 46?

A: Yes, no I never saw him personally in Block 46. I was sent to Block 46 to draw an exemplification of typhus cases; that was for a report for Ding for Berlin. I was to draw the exemplification of the patients.

Dr. Hoven was in Block 46 frequently where he had concealed his people who were working for him, show-makers, etc. Whether Dr. Hoven did anything, whether he had any connection with Ding's work, I don't know. In the camp the general opinion was exactly the opposite. Ding undertook this work and sent the charts, etc., to Berlin and when Ding was not there, Hoven did his work for him.

Q: Doctor, I am going to ask you to kindly confine yourself to the question I ask and we will finish much more rapidly.

Now, Doctor Ding was the chief of Block 46, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, from your understanding and your knowledge of records chats with other inmates, in your capacity as one of the workers in Block 50; you understood that Dr. Mrugowsky was the superior of Dr. Ding; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: You also understood that whenever Dr. Ding had to make a trip, such as one to Paris or to be away for any extended length of time that his deputy was Hoven; is that right?

A: Yes, I believe so, but I could say that Dr. Ding was in the hospital and made the first experiments in Block 46 before I arrived in Buchenwald and that another series of experiments made later and after the arrest of Dr. Hoven was continued also by Dr. Ding.

Q: So it is true that when Dr. Ding was away his deputy was Dr. Hoven?

A: Yes. I don't know these internal matters very well, as well as Dr. Kogon for example, but we always considered that Dr. Hoven was the man who took his place.

Q: Now, defense counsel has submitted some affidavits, those of other inmates, former inmates at Buchenwald concentration camp and therein one of the inmates said he was injected with typhus virus; now I want to ask you did you know of any cases where Dr. Hoven injected inmates with typhus virus while he was at Block 46?

A: I do not know any such cases, definitely no.

Q: However, you do not exclude the possibility that Dr. Hoven may well have given typhus injections to inmates without your knowledge; is that right?

A: That would be quite possible, but I assume that I would have had to know about it more or less, because in our internal camp circles we always said exactly the opposite.

Q: Did you know or ever hear the name of Dr. Genzken; Gruppenfuehrer [Group Leader] Genzken?

A: Yes, I know the name and I even drew him once, if I remember correctly, not personally that is, but a photograph to do him a favor.

Q: Was Dr. Genzken ever at Buchenwald?

A: Just as in the case of Mrugowsky, or whatever his name is, I cannot answer exactly. I only remember a name that was Prince von Waldeck if that happened to be his name, but otherwise we didn't have much interest in the names of these visitors, and I can't tell you, but, of course, it is possible.

Q: Did you understand that Dr. Genzken was also one of the big chiefs over Ding?

Q: I believe so. I believe so, but my testimony in this case is certainly not as valuable as the testimony of Dr. Kogen, for example, who was the clerk of Dr. Ding and who in doing his work was exactly informed about everything.

Q: Witness, will you look ever at the dock and see if you can look down the line of each one of these defendants and determine whether or not you have ever seen any of them in Buchenwald.

A: I have a very good memory for faces, but without all the get-up with which they usually appeared in Buchenwald and climbed around, it is rather difficult for me to pick anybody out. It is worthless to say that there is one there whom I think I have seen before. That is quite worthless, I assume. I can't say anything definite.

MR. HARDY: Thank you, witness. I have no further questions.

EXAMINATION

BY JUDGE SEBRING:

Q: Can you state with anymore exactness than you have heretofore what you understood Mrugowsky's official connection with the camp was?

A: Unfortunately, I am not able to answer that question, but here again I can say that Eugen Kogon would be the right man to give you all the necessary information because he was the clerk of Dr. Ding and he knew everything, and I, as I said, was a painter there and had nothing to do with the organization.

Q: You have the impression, then, from what you knew of Kogon's activities that he would be in a position to detail accurately what transpired within the limits of his knowledge and range of observation while he was at the camp?

A: Yes, definitely, and, above all, with reference to Block 50, the personality of Dr. Ding, the production of typhus materials, the injections at Block 46, because as far as I know, everything went through Kogon administratively, through Kogon's hands, that is. There is a big difference.

Q: How well did you know Kogon?

A: I was in the same detail with him for almost one year. We ate together; we lived together.

Q: What would you say concerning your estimate of his reputation for truth and veracity and his ability to detail accurately at some later date the things that he had observed or had experienced at a prior date?

A: I believe that there is hardly anyone better able to give testimony of a quality such as Dr. Kogon was able to do, not only because Kogon was in a position to have extensive knowledge, but also because he is a man with a good memory, good literary ability and a man to be taken seriously as a Christian. He studied theology, and I know him as a serious and, above all, very truthful man.

Q: Would it be your opinion from your acquaintance with Dr. Kogon that he would be a man who would understand the quality of an oath taken as a condition precedent to giving testimony in a case of this type before a Tribunal?

A: In my opinion, Kogon is a man whom I would not expect to assert anything on his own responsibility which did not correspond to his definite conviction and knowledge.

JUDGE SEBRING: Thank you very much.

DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused, there being no further questions to be propounded to him, and the Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty o'clock.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)