1947-03-21, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session. May it please Your Honors, the defendant Brack having been excused from the morning session has again taken his place in Court.

THE PRESIDENT: Is the defendant Rudolf Brandt ready to proceed with his case?

DR. KAUFMAN (For the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt):

Mr. President, this is how I plan the case of defendant Brandt. First I intend to read a brief affidavit of the witness, Schellenberg, and then following that I would like to examine the witness Otto Meine and, then I want to examine the defendant Brandt as a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: The procedure suggested by counsel is satisfactory. You may proceed.

DR. KAUFMAN: In my document book on page 16 there is an affidavit of the witness Walter Scollenberg. I submit this as Rudolf Brandt Exhibit No. 1. Now I should like to read his statement:

I, Walter Schellenberg —

I need not read the introduction. It has the usual preamble and I begin with No. 1, and quote:

1. I have known Dr. Rudolf Brandt since the year 1939; I became more closely acquainted with him in the year 1942. Because of his good education and his quiet, reserved manner I preferred him, as far as official contacts were concerned, to all those surrounding Himmler, who, in part, led a kind of life that was contrary to the decency and abstinence of Rudolf Brandt.

I claimed Rudolf Brandt especially in order to attain suitable and quick conferences with Himmler. I personally was finally SS-Brigadefuehrer, and Brigadier-general of the Waffen SS, professionally Chief of the Office VI and Mil

— that means Military Intelligence Service —

of the Reich Main Security Office. The offices included the German 'Intelligence Service' abroad (politically and militarily)

2. From 1943 onwards I informed Rudolf Brandt about my efforts to secure peace and other endeavors in the interests of humanity.

In this particular respect Brandt always supported me.

When in difficult individual cases my efforts with Himmler were successful, then his continuous support undoubtedly helped to effect this through securing me interviews.

If I have mentioned my efforts for securing peace in the above statement, then I may add to this the following remark:

Already in 1942 I recognized the military defeat awaiting Germany. I tried by legal and illegal means to do what I possibly could in order to help to bring about the termination of the War. In my capacity as Chief of the German Foreign News Service I entered into numerous connections with foreign personalities for this purpose, people whom I would not like to name now for specific reasons. My name is, however, known in foreign circles, and indeed in connect in with my attempts to end the War.

I occasionally drew Rudolf Brandt's attention to the political aspects, even if he could not recognize the general aspects because of the lack of essential prerequisites in his education.

As to Rudolf Brandt's character, about which I am entitled to give an accurate opinion, I remark what follows:

Because of his ability as a perfect stenographer, his punctuality, his untiring diligence, he became Himmler's convenient, always attainable, I should say registering, writing and reminding machine. Rudolf Brandt always reminded me of a writing mechanism; as only such a type of person can, on the one hand complain about being overworked, and on the other hand declare with pride that he had to produce 3000 to 4000 outgoing letters per month. I repeatedly saw him step out of Himmler's room with many stenographers. His office, and in part its floor, was completely littered with documents. I know that Himmler was afraid of sending letters bearing his signature directly to a third person, dictated them to Rudolf Brandt in order to remain in an anonymous background. Since Himmler showed only one side of his character to Brandt, and therefore understood how to attach Rudolf Brandt to himself in a psychologically very clever manner, Brandt too lost the ability to judge Himmler correctly. Rudolf Brandt has certainly frequented a university but he has at the rest an average general education, since during the course of the years he could not improve his education in consequence of his tremendous professional activities.

According to my convictions Rudolf Brandt would never have been able to participate in any way whatever in offences or crimes against humanity. Nurnberg, 7 February, 1947.

And then a signature and a certificate.

THE PRESIDENT: Now counsel I notice in the translation in the third paragraph, the fourth line of the English document, referring to the Chief of Office IV, in the document book it was translated VI, which is correct?

DR. KAUFMAN: Six is right. Now I ask that the witness Meine be called to the stand.

THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness, August Meine.

AUGUST MEINE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:

JUDGE SEBRING: Hold up your right hand and be sworn repeating:

I swear by God, The Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY DR. KAUFMANN:

Q: You are the witness, August Meine?

A: Yes.

Q: When were you born?

A: I was born on the 13th of October, 1916.

Q: Mr. Meine, you were one of the closest associates of Brandt for several years. You were often his Deputy. Now I should like to question you about a group of facts, and for that reason I shall ask you a few specific questions right away. I should like to know your observations you made on the staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS. I should like to know how you saw the personality of Brandt, how you saw the personality of Himmler, and the influence which Himmler had on his environment, including Brandt. Finally I should like to know from you how the daily work on the personal staff was carried out, how Brandt worked specifically, how extensive his work was, and how his signature on very important documents can be explained. Would you please first explain your position in the personal department?

A: I was a Lieutenant in the German Army and had been transferred to the Waffen-SS when I entered the personal staff of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler on the 1st of November 1940. After having had six weeks to get used to the work, I represented Dr. Brandt for the first time for a period of fourteen days. Since this experiment was successful, it was intended that I should be able to represent him even in the future. The division of our work apart from these periods where I represented him, after Himmler since the middle of 1941 had removed his headquarters from Berlin, was that I was to be in charge of the office at Berlin, and then, after November, 1943, after we had been bombed out in Berlin, I was to take over the evacuated office of the personal staff of Himmler.

There I had assembled most of the clerks and a few collaborators, whereas Dr. Brandt was continually escorting Himmler himself. Finally I was promoted to SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, a position which corresponds to the rank of a major.

Q: In order to make your position clear, and in order to explain to the Tribunal what the personal staff of Reichsfuehrer Himmler looked like, I shall now show you a sketch prepared by Rudolf Brandt and ask you to comment on this sketch and perhaps explain it briefly.

DR. KAUFMANN: In my document book, Mr. President, this sketch is on page 1. I offer it as exhibit Rudolf Brandt No. 2.

MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, this sketch that is being offered as Exhibit No. 2, I have no objection as to the admission of this into evidence, but it seems to me that it could contain the names of the people that hold down the various jobs. He has the titles of the various organizations, but it is going to be rather difficult for the Prosecution and I assume the Tribunal to follow the organizational setup without the names of the personalities fitting into each block. I wonder if it would be possible to have a chart of this type made later and perhaps submitted with the names of the particular people there.

DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, of course I can fulfill the wish of the Prosecutor, but I don't believe that will be necessary. I think it would be enough if the Tribunal sees in general how the personal staff was organized. In my opinion, the names of the individual persons are not important, it would only hamper the Tribunal if names were given because these names were constantly changing, of course; but, as I have said, I will be glad to fulfill this wish especially if it is also the wish of the Tribunal to have these names given.

THE PRESIDENT: I think it might be convenient to the Tribunal if at least some of the higher names were filled in so that one could get an idea from whom the chart stems.

BY DR. KAUFMANN:

Q: Witness, would you be in a position in spite of the complicated nature of the personal staff to say which people held these various positions?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you have the chart?

A: No.

Q: One preliminary question, Mr. Meine, what you have before you is the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, is that true?

A: Yes.

Q: Is it also true that this entire personal staff was a so-called Main Office, Hauptamt?

A: It was considered to be a Main Office, but this staff had a different meaning.

Q: May I ask one more question first: how many such Main Offices were there in Germany?

A: The Reichsfuehrsung-SS was composed of twelve Main Offices. The personal staff was one of these Main Offices.

Q: How many persons were there in this personal staff of Himmler, approximately?

A: Approximately five hundred persons, but this figure fluctuated during the course of the War since a number of tasks received more emphasis while other tasks had to be neglected.

Q: Now please explain this sketch in a few words.

A: Yes. May I say at first that the personal staff comprised the immediate circle of collaborators of Himmler, upon whom he relied for the personal dealing with his own affairs, and in addition, a number of agencies which for material reasons could not be placed in the other Main Offices, and for that reason, for reasons of simplicity, were attached to this personal staff.

Q: What was the name of the Chief of the personal staff?

A: The name of the Chief of the personal staff was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer [Senior Group Leader] Wolf. He only held this position up to the time he received a command in Italy. As far as I remember, that happened towards the end of '43.

Q: And after 1943 who was Chief of the personal staff?

A: Afterwards nobody became Chief of the personal staff. The tasks as far as they could not be dealt with by Himmler personally, were dealt with by the Chief of Staff, SS-Standartenfuehrer [Colonel] Baumert —

Q: Please look at the sketch and explain whether the next box with the word "Stabsfuehrer", staff manager, whether that was the person you have just mentioned?

A: The box "Stabsfuehrer", staff manager, was held by SS-Standartenfuehrer Baumert.

Q: What was the position of the Stabsfuehrer?

A: He was responsible for personnel matters concerning the entire staff. He was in charge of the budget of vehicles, transportation, and moreover, was the disciplinary superior of all the members of the staff. That applied to male and female members of the staff.

Q: Now, please explain the next row.

A: The next row comprises the offices which dealt with special tasks, tasks to which Himmler attached value, and which had not found a place in the other Main Offices. Starting from the lefthand side we find the office Ahnenerbe [ancestral heritage] which concerns itself with the scientific hobbies of Himmler. That is pre-historical research work there and other literary research work originating from Germanic culture in which Himmler was interested.

Q: Do you know who was in charge of this office?

A: Yes, this office, "Ahnenerbe" had a president and that was Himmler himself. Then it had a scientific curator, who was a university professor, Dr. Wuest. The latter was a director of the University of Munich. In addition, this office had a business manager, who was SS-Standartenfuehrer Wolfram Sievers.

Q: I think that will be enough. Now go on to the next office.

A: The second office was the "Raw Materials Office". When, during the course of the war, more and more spheres of human activity were dealt with by the State in an increasing measure, the Reichsfuehrer-SS deemed it to be correct to see that not every Main Office should register their needs with State authorities on their own behalf, but that all these applications and requests be centralized in one spot and from there to be sent on to the Ministry of Economics or the Ministry of Armaments or the Agency for the Four Year Plan.

Q: Who was the head of this office?

A: The head of this office was SS-Standartenfuehrer Kloth.

Q: That will be enough.

A: Yes.

Q: Now the next one.

A: The next office comprised a castle in Westphalia where the Reichsfuehrer-SS collected a number of valuables of a historic and artistic nature. This office was intended by him as a place of meeting with high SS leaders. However, that never came into effect during the war. The castle hadn't been finished yet.

Q: And who was head of this?

A: The head was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer [Senior Group Leader] Taubert. The next office is the Office "Lebenshorn." This office dealt with the care for mothers of illegitimate children. It had a number of maternity homes in Germany, were mothers were cared for a few weeks pro-natally and after their children had been brought into the world. The head of this office was SS-Standartenfuehrer Max Sellmann.

The next office, the Office 'Fahrenkamp', dealt with tasks of an architectural nature, and interior architectural nature. It drafted furniture for farmers and made plans in connection with other house furniture which was needed far the SS. The head of this office was Sturmbannfuehrer Fahrenkamp — the name is spelled on the chart. Connected with that was the Office "Munich", where drafts were worked out for porcelain objects which were manufactured in the porcelain factories owned by the SS. The head of this office was SS-Oberfuehrer [Brigadier] Diebitsch. But this man spent a great number of the war years with the army, so that this office was also under the previously mentioned officer, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Fahrenkamp.

Q: The so-called main sections which fellow now, the main departments in the fourth row— did they also have chiefs when you could name?

A: Yes. The main departments listed in the next row comprised the collaborators of Himmler, those other persons on whom he relied for the handling of his personal affairs. It starts with the Main Department 'Registry," which was divided into two departments, which were independent of one another. On the one hand there was the Registry for Top Secret Matters and then there was the Registry for Public or Open Directives. The head was SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Treusch.

Then follows the Main Department 'Administration,' which dealt with the budget for the personal staff. The head was an SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel], Mohr.

The next department was 'Economic Aid'. This office originated from peacetime when the Reichsfuehrer-SS planned special measures intended for these SS members who had come into economic need, not by their own fault.

This office issued loans to a large extent. The head was an SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Fitzner.

Q: Before you discuss the personal department I would suggest that you first deal with the other main departments and that we come back to the personal department, and discuss it at the end.

A: Very well. The Main Department "Staff Leaders Office", (Stabsfuehrung), comprised the collaborators which were used by the staff manager when dealing with his disciplinary tasks. There is no special name to be mentioned in connection with that office. Then follows the Chief Adjutant's Office which received all of Himmler's visitors and in addition constantly accompanied Himmler's official journies. After 1942 it dealt also with military tasks as far as they concerned divisions of the Waffen-SS at the front. This main department maintained direct contact with the SS Operational Main Office (SS Fuehrungshauptamt) which was the highest operational office for the Waffen-SS. The head of this main department was SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Grothmann.

Q: I have one question to ask here. You just said that the Chief Adjutant's Office had direct connection with the SS Operational Office (SS Fuehrungsamt)?

A: Yes.

Q: Who was head of the SS Operational Office?

A: That was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner. The next is the Main Department "SS Judges". When in the course of the war the Waffen SS was built up, the SS and police jurisdiction extended largely. Himmler wanted to have SS judges in his vicinity who would be in a position to report to him about the current cases and who would be able to get his decisions. The head of that department was SS-Oberfuehrer Bender. This main department maintained a direct contact with the Main Judge's Department of the SS. (Hauptamt "SS Gericht")

Q: Who was the head of the office which you have just mentioned?

A: Excuse me. I only know the name of the first head, who died in the year 1942. This was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Scharfe, and I now remember that the later head was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt.

Q: Please go on.

A: Now we deal with the Main Department Police Adjutant's Office. From the time when Himmler had become Chief of the German Police, which was 17 July 1936, he had a special adjutant who dealt with all police matters. This man maintained direct contact with the Main Department "Order Police" (Ordnungspolizei) and with the Main Department Security Police, the so-called Reich Security Main Office (RSHA). The head of this Main Department was SS Obersturmbannfuehrer, and Lieutenant-Colonel of the Order police, Suchanek.

The next main department only existed as long as SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf was Chief of the Personal Staff, that is, until the end of the year 1943. The head of this department at the last was SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer [Captain] Heckenstaller.

The next main department, the Personnel Department, dealt with personnel matters of all members of the personal staff. I am sorry, I forgot the name of the head of this department.

Then we have the Department Awards and Guests, which originally dealt with all awards which were received by SS members in war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war and finally ceased to exist altogether. These tasks were then dealt with by the General Main Department, the SS-Personnel Main Office, the head of which was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer von Hert.

The last department was to pass special wishes of Himmler on to the press. This department was also to supply him daily with German press reports. The head of this department changed frequently, it was mostly a young journalist, so that it is hardly possible to name the responsible man.

Q: And now we come to the Personnel Department. Rudolf Brandt was the head of that. Will you please tell me first how large this Personnel Department was, numerically — how many people there were?

A: It comprised between 16 and 20 people. After Himmler had moved into his permanent headquarters, four or five of these people stayed with Dr. Brandt, whereas the other ten or fifteen were with me in Berlin or at the Evacuation Post.

Q: Could you tell us in one or two sentences what the subject of the work of this Personnel Department was?

A: I believe I can differentiate between four groups. First, all of the matters of the General-SS (Allgemeire SS) Group. Himmler had given the right to the 15,000 oldest members of the SS to avail themselves of the opportunity of approaching him at all times, directly. This was an opportunity which was made use of very frequently. In addition, in every case where an SS member had died or fallen during the war, Himmler received a report about his family's situation and what kind of help was given by the SS in that case. These events in themselves amounted to hundreds or even thousands during the course of one month. In addition, in cases where a fourth or fifth child was born to an SS member, personal congratulations were sent by Himmler. Himmler also approved every marriage so that daily there were ten to fifteen marriage applications which had to be submitted to him. In addition to that were the numerous presents which he gave—presents of porcelain, fruit juices, children's candles, books, and all sorts of other things.

The second group comprised applications coming from the German people. There were mostly requests for help or requests for advice in family matters. It frequently occurred that these applicants had other applications dealing in other agencies of the Reich, and asked for the support of the SS on their behalf.

The third group comprised proposals of all kinds. It happened very frequently that men and women, belonging to the German people, who had acquaintances in the SS, felt the need to tell Himmler about their thoughts of their suggestions.

The last group finally comprised the official correspondence, that is, the contact with all agencies of the Reich and the Party, and especially the contact with the other main departments, with the exception of the 4 main departments which I already excepted when speaking about the chart. We have to exclude 4 offices of the 12 main offices, that is, the Reich Security Main Office, the Main Office Order Police, the Main Office SS Court, and the Operational Main Office.

Q: Now is it correct, witness, that Himmler drew a short distinction in the Personnel Department between those fields which you have just mentioned, and the police matters?

A: Yes. It was one of his principles to make a strict distinction between these matters. It happened sometimes that our attention was drawn to police affairs by reason of the applications that came from the public, and I world have been very glad to follow up the further dealing with these matters in the police sphere; Himmler, however, attached great value to so that we only approached the police Adjutant who had to deal with anything further.

Q: So that Brandt transferred all police matters to the man in charge?

A: All police matters were transferred to the Police Adjutant who had his own registry at his disposal. Matters concerning the police were not comprised within the general registry of the Personal Staff.

Q: No, witness, Brandt had to work with all those things which you have just listed?

A: Yes.

Q: As Chief of the Office?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that a great deal or work?

A: I may perhaps clarify that by giving you a few figures. During the war there were, as a rule, 8,000 to 10,000 letters emanating from our department per month. Himmler signed perhaps 500 of these letters personally — never more than that.

Dr. Brandt signed perhaps 3,000 to 4,000 letters per month, that is, a hundred or more per day. In my case it was a little less and fluctuated between 2,500, and 3,000. The rest, about 1,500 were taken care of by my collaborators, and these were matters of minor importance.

Q: Now, witness, I should like to attempt to make it clear to the Tribunal how it came about that Brandt signed very important documents. Will you please tell us what a normal working day was from morning to evening, what observation you made, and what Brandt's active part was?

A: Apart from the times when I had to represent him, I often went to the Field Command, since I had to receive all the visitors in Berlin to whom Himmler wanted to speak personally. These were often matters concerning family affairs. I took the opportunity to report the applications of these people collectively to Dr. Brandt so that he could again pass on these reports. During these occasions I often experienced how a day of work passed for him. In addition, I myself was subject to similar conditions of work whenever I represented him. Dr. Brandt slept very little. He could already be found at his desk at 7:00 o'clock in the morning. Then he looked at his stenographic notes and at his notebook; in order to check whether he forgot any urgent request of the previous day. In addition he dictated a number of letters to his secretary.

Q: What direct assistants did Brandt have?

A: Brandt had a secretary and a younger collaborator of mine. In addition, he had an office messenger boy.

Q: Go on and describe the day.

A: At approximately 9:30 the courier train arrived with the mail.

Q: Where did the train come from?

A: It came from Berlin and was destined together all headquarters in East Prussia. That is, not only Himmler's, but also Goering's, Ribbentrop's, and Hitler's Headquarters itself. Dr. Brandt then had to sort the mail. That is, matters dealing with press affairs, applications for marriages, family letters meant for Himmler personally. Also, his secret mail had to be sorted out from the other mail. And all these letters which were opened had to be checked in order to see whether they were to be directed to Himmler himself. Although they personally were addressed to Brandt they may still have required Himmler's personal attention. He often didn't finish that because Himmler often invited him to breakfast. Himmler slept eight hours per day as a rule. And since he was only in a position to go to bed very late at night, he hardly got up before 9 to 9:30 in the morning. The first one of his collaborators he saw on the occasion of his breakfast was Dr. Brandt. During that breakfast Himmler gave Brandt his first orders; to send teletypes, to register telephone calls, or to write letters sometimes. These are matters which Himmler had considered during the course of the night. Immediately after breakfast Himmler wanted to see his entire mail so that Brandt was always pressed for time because he couldn't deal with that before breakfast. In addition he had to report about his own mail, too. Himmler was in the habit of wanting to decide all matters by himself and, therefore, this mail comprised a number of handwritten letters, the contents of which were reported to him by Brandt since the reading of these letters would have taken up too much of Himmler's time. Afterwards — well, now we are almost approaching noon time and Brandt had to take care of orders given to him during breakfast and, in addition, register telephone conversations and look through the rest of the mail and sort it out. Lunch was usually at 1400 hours.

During that Himmler, for the first time, saw all these persons whom he ordered to attend conferences for that day. Lunch mostly lasted for three quarters of an hour. Then Brandt usually got into difficulties with time because, on the one side, the mail coming from the Ministry of the Interior was just coming to his desk and, in addition, the visitors which had been ordered to see Himmler, in overestimation of Dr. Brandt, personally thought that they owed him a visit, too. It was often painful to watch how Dr. Brandt, who himself wasn't very versatile, who was rather awkward, and in addition didn't have much opportunity to tell these people how little time he really had for them. In addition the gentlemen from the various offices waited, who had brought the mail to Himmler's office and who wanted to speak about a number of details. Dr. Brandt could only help himself by writing all these matters into his stenographic note book, hoping that when bringing this mail to Himmler he would find the right note at the right moment.

Q: Now, when did Himmler dictate his letters?

A: That varied. His quietest time of work was either late at night, but he really didn't like to dictate then because he didn't want to overburden his secretary. He mostly dictated during the morning hours, after Dr. Brandt had already brought his mail to him. He often dealt with it immediately, and so it happened that the letters which were written by the secretary during the course of the afternoon only received Himmler's signature at the last moment when the messenger already waited for the mail to go to Berlin. Himmler attached value to mail being transported in the speediest manner. Dr. Brandt received the file of letters which were signed by Himmler only at the very last moment, and was then able to sign the copies. Himmler sent often many letters simultaneously to a number of agencies but he only signed one and left the rest to Dr. Brandt or me during the time I represented Brandt. It was often only possible to sign very hastily since the messengers were already waiting at the train. I can recall a number of cases where the train had either to be stopped, although that of course was a difficult matter because the train was also a train meant for Hitler, Goering and Ribbentrop, as I mentioned before; or that we had to send a car to catch up with the train, a car that had to cover hundreds of kilometers at a time, to catch up with same train at some other station. The telephone conversations of Dr. Brandt were extremely numerous. I can remember that during the time I represented him, I once had between sixty and seventy telephone conversations, and it is to be assumed that the number of telephone conversations in the case of Brandt at least was equality high.

Q: Now, witness, you said that secret mail was also received and that this secret mail was shown to Himmler immediately. Is that true?

A: Yes. Himmler attached great value to receiving mail without delay.

Q: Now, after such secret mail arrived, it was possibly shown to Rudolf Brandt immediately?

A: Yes, The folders were opened, and the mail contained therein was put on Dr. Brandt's desk, and he then saw to it that the top secret matters were immediately turned over to Himmler's batch of mail, inasmuch as these top secret matters were addressed to Himmler personally. Of course, there were top secret matters addressed to Dr. Brandt, which he himself opened. In the case of secret mail the following measures were applied: In the cases where the letters bore Himmler's address, and only the secret stamp then Dr. Brandt would open them. If, however, in addition they bore the remark "personal" then they were treated as very top secret matters (Geheime Reichssachen).

Q: By personally, you mean for Himmler personally?

A: Yes, in that the address read to "Heinrich Himmler, personally."

Q: Now, witness, you observed how Rudolf Brandt worked daily. Can you tell us in what way he dealt with this mail which you say was very extensive? Could one say that in general he studied the incoming letters, principally as one looks at a letter which one receives in the course of a day, that he considered them and reached a decision? Or what are your observations?

A: Considering the extent of the incoming mail which alone was submitted by us, because, in addition to having to consider the letters coming from the ministry office, and considering the great value which Himmler attached to receiving the letters immediately, it was completely out of the question for him to read all these things.

In the rule, and that was true in my case, too, he merely read the most important words, and once he fund out that this letter was meant for Himmler personally he put it aside immediately. Mail which was really read by Dr. Brandt, as far as I observed, comprised all these letters which he didn't have to submit. He was able only to look through these letters late at night, mostly after supper. Then he also dealt with dictation as far as he himself had to dictate any letters.

Q: Now, how about the outgoing mail? The letters which Himmler signed personally which were sent by Rudolf Brandt, be it a copy of an accompanying letter, to third persons? Did you assume something of the same nature or what were your observations here?

A: I already attempted to describe what the procedure was with those signatures which Himmler made before the departure of the courier train. There as a rule it was impossible to study these orders or letters by Himmler. It sufficed for us to see that Himmler has given his signature. After that he expected us to take the rest of the work from him and sign the copies meant for other offices.

A: But you concede that Rudolf Brandt read more carefully the letters which were addressed to him?

A: As far as he did not recognize already in the morning when working at the letters that his address was only used instead of Himmler's address, and so far as he did not submit the letters which were directed to him, he read it, but he only had time to do that late at night.

Q: Did you observe that Himmler dictated letters and then told the secretary she was not to sign it with Himmler's name but the name of Rudolf Brandt, and why did he do that, if he did?

A: I had that experience at first in my case. I was very surprised at first to receive teletypes which contained orders by Himmler and bore my signature, although up to that time I had no knowledge of them whatsoever. That can be explained by the fact that Himmler made an enormous amount of decisions personally. This procedure on the other hand he did not like to admit towards men of a lower rank, that is, if he was not concerned with the chiefs of the department but just ordinary men in the SS.

Q: You mean to say if I understand you correctly that he put his signature on letters only if they were to important people of the Party or the SS?

A: Yes, that was the rule because they had to be people who even formally could expect to get signatures from him. Otherwise he often sought this way out. When I found that out in my case, I also make the sane observation in the case of Rudolf Brandt.

Q: Now, I believe we have spoken enough about the technical way in which the mail was handled. Now I should like to ask you what Brandt's position in the personal department really was.

It has been repeatedly said here that he had the position of an adviser to Himmler. Did you make any observations in this respect? What can you tell us?

A: I was once personal witness of one such a report on mail by Dr. Brandt when submitting mail. I was very uncertain of myself and I wanted to know how he was dealing with this report in order to get some idea of how it was done. I can remember exactly that on the one hand I was very depressed and on the other hand I was quite satisfied. I could not observe any advisory aid on the part of Dr. Brandt during that report on mail. The observation I made was that Himmler gave Brandt his orders in the same short manner according to the contents of the letter, as he did in my case too. I think that it is completely out of the question that Dr. Brandt was Himmler's adviser. I am convinced on the other hand that considering his extraordinary stenographic ability he was an extraordinary stenographer. Dr. Brandt was one of the most skillful stenographers of Germany. That dates back to his youth.

Q: Do you want to say anything else?

A: Yes, I want to supplement this description by citing an experience which I had in the year 1941, that is, after the war had started against Russia. When the war started Himmler prohibited Brandt from taking any female secretaries along with him. In that case there was neither a secretary for Himmler nor for Brandt. Himmler expected Brandt to use all of the male help of our office and deal with all additional work. At that time I was detailed to the front in Russia where I received a letter from Dr. Brandt where he complained about this additional overburden of work in a very distressed manner. I was very glad not to be there at the time and I merely sympathized with him.

Q: Now did he type these things himself or what did he do?

A: He then had to take all shorthand dictations from Himmler and then had to re-dictate them to one of our younger workers. Of course, he did not type himself.

A: How long was Brandt's working day?

A: It started at seven o'clock in the morning and ended rarely before midnight, sometimes even later. As a rule I only got to bed at one or two o'clock at night. Himmler expected us to be ready for work just as long as he was still up and was staying behind his desk.

Q: Do you want to maintain the statement that you have just made, even if one considers that Rudolf Brandt formally had a rather high position. He was a Standartenfuehrer after all and was the so-called head of the ministerial office and had a position of ministerial counsellor and an outsider hearing these titles would consider it quite unlikely that Brandt would be employed just as a first stenographer.

A: I am quite clear in my mind that this description sounds very improbable, but I can only describe it as it actually was. I hope that during the course of your further questions I shall have the opportunity to show because of what psychological reasons it is explained in Brandt's nature himself that this situation arose. But a great influence on that was exercised by the special method of work used by Himmler. Dr. Brandt, for instance, was never a participant in any conference. He would have immediately told me about any such event as being something extraordinary, or I would have heard it from some of the other workers there. It was the rule that during any conferences of Himmler Dr. Brandt might perhaps be called in to the conference room at some time during the conference in order to receive any order, or it is probable that after the end of such a conference Himmler would call him and would shortly dictate the points which came up during the conference. He would dictate the essential contents of any letters in cases where not Himmler but Dr. Brandt had to pass on the result of any such conference.

Q: What were your observations concerning the completeness of the contents of the files; that is I am speaking of the case where certain files were shown to Rudolf Brandt and that Himmler had conferences on the subject of such files; now I ask you whether the contents of the files alone, without knowledge of the conferences, would make it clear exactly what it was about?

A: No, the connection was only apparent in very rare cases, not as a rule. That can be explained by the division of these two registries. Himmler did not have to recognize any connections of matters from the files, he got it all during conferences, or it came from his own head whenever he had to give any orders. I was often very dissatisfied about the fact that so little could be seen from the files. I only cite as example the institution of the voluntary divisions of the Waffen SS, an institution which comprised members from numerous European countries.

Q: Will you please be brief in answering this question?

A: Yes, I just want to say I was often ashamed of having comrades tell me, "How come you don't know that, you are with Himmler." As a result from the files no connection could be realized. In addition, considering the huge influx of mail, very extensive correspondence could hardly be read, and they could only be read at a time when Himmler was already done with them and sent them back for registry.

Q: Now, witness, in the daily mail aid you see incoming letters dealing with medical experiments or medical research with the use of human beings?

A: I can remember one such case: Two Dutchmen thought that they had found a special drug against tuberculosis and then carried on accordingly experiments in Oranienburg, otherwise I found no indications which led me to believe that medical experiments were carried out on human beings within the SS. I believe to be able to say that these matters, of which I now gained knowledge on the basis of documents, must have been completely on the border-line of Dr. Brandt's sphere of work.

Q: Then how do you explain the fact that certain letters went through the hands of Brandt and mentioned his name, and these dealt with human experiment, did that have something to do with his special high position or because he was considered a confident of Himmler; or what explanation can you give us?

A: I now have had an opportunity to look through the Documents here and I have had an opportunity to gain knowledge about the subject matter. I have been thinking for a long time now how it could have been possible that these letters did not come to my knowledge and I believe that I am able to say that on the one hand the extraordinarily strict secrecy exercised by Himmler played the decisive role and that on the other hand there were also few technical factors which have to be taken into consideration. I —

Q: Do you have something else to say then Mr. Meine? Then I should like to ask you about something else. You worked for years in the environments of Himmler and Brandt, now I should like to ask you what influence did the personality of Himmler have on his close environment including Rudolf Brandt?

A: That is a very difficult question for me to answer, for we have now learned how Himmler distorted the picture of humanity, how he violated the fundamental principles of humanity, the principle of which our entire European culture is based.

If I am now to state what influence Himmler exercised on those people who with pure conscience and pure heart approached him and got to know him more closely, I am forced to tell about impressions that I had and to cite experiences which are completely in contradiction to what terrible things we know about him today. Since May of 1945 when I was interned in a British Internment Camp, I asked myself more than once, and I considered seriously, how it could have come about that we had not realized these things earlier, how it could have been possible that we misinterpreted the character of Himmler so fundamentally. I asked myself whether I was the victim of an illusion, and it was a decisive question for my own moral existence to gain certainty whether I could rely on my heart or brain, or whether I had also to run the danger of making such a catastrophic error in the future.

As terrible as it may sound today, I can only say that by personally dealing with Himmler, and by his utterances and talking there was no indicator which could lead one to recognize these terrible methods which he used in order to arrive at these aims, which he seemed to represent in such a pure and dignified manner before our eyes.

Now and again my attention was drawn to reports by the foreign press and radio, but the examinations which were carried on regularly on order of Himmler have always proven the incorrectness of such reports. I therefore regret to have to say that these report were no longer credible for us. In addition to that were our memories of the horror stories of the First World War, therefore, the reports of this last world war did not seen credible either. Himmler's personal manner was without fear. I experienced that during the heavy bombing attack in the year of 1944. He was always ready to help, always polite, always sympathetic toward us and he was always ready to speak to us and express his thought. Himmler was a brilliant conversationalist, at no time was he a fanatic, he was always generous and ready to appreciate someone else's opinion, that was true in the case of officers of scientists, officials or SS leaders. They often told me how happy we can be that we had the opportunity to work in the vicinity of such a man.

When Himmler developed his thoughts everything had a logical significance everything was a matter of course, he did not shy from approaching such questions which came up during the war to every responsible human being. It was often apparent how he helped his listeners, how he relieved them of the burden which was on them by merely expressing his thoughts. It was interesting to hear his attitude toward religion and the individual freedom of conscience human beings. He considered the concentration camps as a sharp instrument for the execution of stern political necessities. He said at the same time, however, that there was an enormous responsibility connected with him on that account. It was interesting to hear the way in which he saw the problem of the German race and how he clearly and unequivocally rejected the thought of the claim for German leadership. Everyone of his thoughts were enlightening and convincing and showed Himmler in our eyes as a man who with honest heart endeavored to deal with the questions of our times and was trying to find a way in which he could justify to himself and his own conscience.

I could prove these assertions by giving many examples, examples which I remember exactly. Since a growing young man, I wanted to understand under all circumstances how the world reflected itself in the mind of that man.

I saw nothing wrong in that.

Q: Did he talk to you about the question of concentration camps and experiments on human beings; did he discuss it with you perhaps?

A: Never about experiments. In the Spring of 1942 after having returned from Russia as a soldier I asked him about concentration camps. I told him at that time that I could not understand how we could burden ourselves with concentration camps and with all this police organization where we in the SS had to set a good example, and where the educational aim which we set ourselves in the SS was to extend throughout generations and was to use every bit of energy of the SS. He became very thoughtful then and tried to explain to me for what reasons the institution of concentration camps was necessary.

Q: Witness, may I interrupt you for a moment. Himmler was considered by large sections of the German population as a man of great severity and ruthlessness. I will not determine the year in which this opinion was held — but I ask you, was this opinion not shared by the personal staff — by you and Brandt?

A: Yes, but we made a different experience personally.

Q: And you would repeat what you have just said?

A: Yes.

Q: Or do you want to explain it?

A: I want to continue in my description of Himmler. I wanted to say —

MR. HARDY: May it plea so your Honor — this character reference for Himmler is immaterial in this trial. Unfortunately we don't have Heinrich Himmler in the dock. I think the witness should confine himself to testify pertaining to the defendant Rudolf Brandt?

DR. KAUFMANN: May I say something about that, Mr. President?

I almost feared that the prosecution would raise this objection — but then, I believe one cannot see this case properly; this case has not only an outer objective side but this case of Brandt with its many signatures on these terrible documents — has an internal significant side too, and one can understand it only — can understand how he came to make mistakes only if one sees under what influence he was. This witness does not intend to say anything about Himmler for which he cannot take the responsibility, and he sets himself absolutely at distance from Himmler, and he describes only what he has observed, and he tells us how Himmler, with his double nature, influenced his environment and how he was able to draw Brandt in his spell. Brandt became a victim of Himmler. That is one side of my defense as I see it, and I would not be able to carry out this defense, if I were not permitted to show through the mouth of a witness how this terrible man Himmler was able to give an entirely different impression of himself to his environment. And besides, we have nearly finished.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands the pertinence, of a good deal of this testimony as relevant to the opinion of the character of the defendant Rudolf Brandt. For that reason we have permitted the witness to continue to testify concerning Himmler but it would seem quite appropriate to suggest that it might have been fairly adequate and covered. Counsel may proceed.

DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I thank you. I shall go on to another subject now.

BY DR. KAUFMANN:

Q: Witness, you know Brandt for years; you were able to observe him daily, and I assume that you know him as a comrade. Perhaps you can tell us some observation of how he thought concerning the problem of humanity.

The documents which we have here in themselves are very incriminating. But what can you tell of Brandt's personality; how did you see Brandt; would you ever have expected him to take an active part in such crimes against humanity? That would more or less be my last question.

A: Dr. Brandt dealt with the numerous pleas coming from the German people, with great love. Doubtless he attached great importance to see that not one of these pleas was overlooked, if several points were mentioned in the same letter. In the beginning I was less careful with that when I dealt with these questions — and I was often corrected by him on that score. He often told me whether I wasn't in a position — to place myself in the position of these human beings who, here filled with confidence, are expressing a plea and which I was just dealing with in a superficial manner. Dr. Brandt was always very anxious to see that everything was settle peacefully. He was anxious to see that quarrels were avoided. I was often in a position to observe that he preferred disadvantage to himself rather than causing disadvantage to anyone else. In addition, he was so modest in his way of life. Dr. Brandt never owned a car. He never owned his own house. As for salary — he, because he wasn't considered as an officer, was in a worse position than comrades of the same rank who were on the staff. He was also open and honest and at not time did I hear him say anything bad about somebody else in his absence. He didn't like such talk. He didn't care for slander. As for the thought that he would ever participate in crimes — it shall never occur to me.

DR. KAUFMANN: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 0930 o'clock Monday morning.

(The Tribunal recessed until 24 Mar 47 at 0930 hours.)