1947-03-24, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I was just being told that I am to be shorter in conducting my examination; and I shall certainly adhere to this and respect the wish of the Tribunal. I ask you to take into consideration, however, that I intended to get finished today at any rate.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the remarks of the Tribunal were not intended as a reprimand to counsel at all. Neither is it the desire of the Tribunal to limit in any wise this defendant or any defendant in the presentation of evidence pertinent and material to his defense.
RUDOLF BRANDT - (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q: Witness, you were saying before, when describing your sphere of work, that medical research work did not belong to it. These matters were alien to your task; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, how can you explain that in the case of a number of documents your name can be found under such documents? Had your particular position in the office of Himmler anything to do with it, or was it a decisive factor that you yourself were informed about these matters?
A: The latter wasn't the case in any way. The reason that these alien things came to me varies. In addition to a number of other affairs, Himmler was very interested in medical matters. Whenever physicians approached him or whenever they were recommended to him, he personally established contact with them or referred them to Reichsarzt [Reich Physician] Dr. Grawitz, who was then ordered to give Himmler a report. This occurred orally very frequently; and in some other cases it was done by way of writing. Still another reason for that, I would say, was the fact that whenever Himmler conducted conferences, he often called me into his office rather than call his secretary, in order to give me some order regarding a telephone conversation in the presence of his visitors, sometimes to dictate a teletype to me, or told me how to dictate a letter to my secretary.
Beyond that he would often say to the visitor, "Whenever you have any questions to put to me of a material, personal, or factual nature, just write to Dr. Brandt or give him a call. He can always be reached and can inform me immediately." On principle, every official conference of Himmler was concluded by Himmler's asking about the personal affairs of his visitor. He asked him about the state of his health, about the members of his family, about his economic situation, and so forth. At these times I was also called in to his office and received orders, which ran something like this — I think I mentioned these orders before; and I won't have to repeat them now. Repeatedly directives were given in order to supply additional funds for vacation expenses; or in a case where any visitors had not had any children from their marriage, I was to give Prof. Knauss' address in Prague to those visitors.
Q: Witness, with reference to the sphere of medical research, the field which is under indictment here— did you have any authority to issue directives?
A: I neither had a right to issue orders in the medical sphere nor in any other sphere. I was never in a position to make my own decisions even in my own sphere of work. Whatever went out to various agencies could be traced back to a decision by Himmler, a decision which he reserved himself in every case.
Q: Did you at any time or at any opportunity develop your own thoughts and materialize your own decisions with reference to human experiments? Maybe I can formulate it in a different manner. Did you ever originate the thought in your brain to undertake experiments on human beings?
A: I would never have arrived at any such idea.
Q: Witness—
A: Especially since I never dealt with scientific questions for lack of interest.
Q: Did you at any time speak to Rascher? Did you ever discuss details with him with reference to experiments on human beings?
A: I did speak to Rascher a few times but never about human experiments which he intended to carry through.
Q: Do you maintain the same statement with reference, to Dr. Ding-Schuler
A: I never knew Dr. Ding-Schuler.
Q: Is the same true of Prof. Gebhardt? Did you ever discuss any details with him at any one time? Did you ever speak to Prof. Gebhardt about barman experiments at all?
A: I spoke neither to Prof. Gebhardt nor to any ether person about experiments on human beings.
Q: And that holds true of the defendant, Wolfgang Sievers?
A: Yes, that is true in the case of Sievers.
Q: And how about Prof. Hirth?
A: I saw Prof. Hirth once or twice when he visited Himmler. Beyond his introduction, I didn't speak to him.
Q: Could you say the same thing about Prof. Hagen?
A: I did not know Prof. Hagen. I don't remember having had any exchange of correspondence with him. The official letters which I had to send to the respective persons by order of Himmler I am not considering when making that statement about discussion, for in these cases I acted according to an order and directive of Himmler which I transmitted.
Q: Now, Mr. Brandt, in the document books there are a number of documents to be found which are marked secret. Be it that there were ordinary secret matters, top secret matters of military secret matters. Now when working on those matters, by dictating a letter or by giving a signature, did that always happen by the express order of Himmler?
A: Only by order of Himmler. I couldn't sign in any other manner.
Q: Would you maintain that your activity, as for instance by giving signatures with reference to medical matters, could not be evaluated in any other way than the mere work of a stenographer, of a passive co-worker?
A: In my opinion, it can not be evaluated in any other way, since I neither have any expert knowledge nor am I acquainted with the connections of all these affairs. I only transmitted what Himmler dictated to me or what Himmler told me about.
Q: Could you at any time avoid to carry out Himmler's orders without endangering your life?
A: According to what was customary, that would not have been possible.
Q: Now, witness, would you please describe as exactly and shortly and briefly as possible how your daily work with Himmler was carried on? Say, at first, when did your work start? When did you end it? How many hours a day did you work?
A: My working day started mostly before seven o'clock in the morning — since I was in the habit of getting up very early. Himmler, on the other hand, worked until late at night. He worked, as a rule, until two o'clock in the morning. And only when he finished his day, then my day could come to an end, too. In this manner I worked for fifteen to sixteen hours per day, on the average, no matter whether it was Sunday or weekday.
Q: Did you ever get any vacation?
A: Yes, but for the years 1939 and 1940, where there was a pause of almost two years, I was sent on vacation every year for four weeks.
Q: And then tell us more about the working day. How did it continue?
A: The manner has already been described and I don't have to repeat it in detail. In the morning. I had until nine thirty to review the work of the preceding day, and to dictate one letter or another. At nine thirty the courier arrived and then the mail had to be sorted out for Himmler, which he had to have on his desk.
Professor Gebhardt recently said that the courier arrived at night. I just wanted to explain that this varied at the different headquarters. As a rule, the mail arrived in the morning since we were at the East Prussian headquarters. In the West, on the other hand, mail only arrived at night. Himmler, as a rule, got up at ten o'clock in the morning after having slept for eight hours. He had breakfast very briefly and my presence was demanded. During these few minutes no official matters were discussed. He often dictated teletypes or letters during that period of time and then he shaved. During these fifteen to twenty minutes I had my own opportunity to report about my mail of the day. This was a habit which had crystallized from the very early trips during peacetime, and it became a permanent institution in the case of the field headquarters.
Subsequently I dealt with the orders which I received in the meantime, and I was currently called into Himmler's office from morning until late at night in order to receive orders for telephone conversations, teletypes, letters, etc. In addition to this work I had to deal with conferences with visitors, conferences with my own officials, letters had to be dictated, and in this manner the day passed very quickly.
Mealtimes were kept very short, perhaps thirty-five to forty minutes, lunch and dinner, and when the time had come after dinner for everybody else to relax, to read a book, the work continued for Himmler and that meant that it had to continue for me, too.
Q: And now we come to the discussion of the outgoing mail, and I am going to speak about a number of document books. Tell me quite generally how the outgoing mail was handled. Himmler, of course, signed a number of letters during the day, but they were only very few. Most signatures were given by you and Meine, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now if you are looking at these documents whereupon you find your signature, how can you explain that your signature can be found underneath these documents, when you consider the contents of these documents as being criminal? Can that be explained by the fact that the lack of time played a part, or can you give us another explanation?
A: The witness, Meine, stated already yesterday that Himmler only signed his name at the very last moment. The courier could only get to the train in time by racing at the risk of breaking his neck. When Himmler finally made his signatures, there was no longer any time to read his letters. I could only limit myself to sign the copies which my secretary submitted to me in all haste. I had no misgivings in that respect since Himmler had signed the original.
Q: Witness, now a number of your letters have the initials "BR," and I would say that this was your initial. Must I conclude therefrom that these letters were directly dictated by you, or could it have been possible, considering Himmler's habit of working, that Himmler dictated these letters personally and that this file note was used in addition to that so that it today appears as if these letters had really originated from you?
A: That happened, too. Generally, however, the situation was where I received dictation from Himmler and then transmitted these notes to my secretary
Q: Can you recall where Himmler dictated teletypes and where these teletypes were not signed with his name but with somebody else's name and where the other person only received knowledge of his signature after the teletype had already left?
A: Yes, that happened to me on frequent occasions, and I am convinced that there are yet a number of teletypes of which I don't know anything even today, although they do bear my name.
Q: Witness, I shall now discuss a few letters coming from the Document Book No. 6. This document refers to sterilization experiments. When putting questions to you regarding these documents, I am interested in establishing whether or not you had known the contents of these documents, whether you had read these documents. I am referring to the letters which you wrote at that time. I am interested in knowing whether you had recognized the seriousness of the letters which you had signed. I will ask that the document volume No. 6 be handed over to you. I ask you to turn to page 6 in the German book, and page 5 in the English book. It is Document 036, Exhibit 143. This is a letter given you by Himmler on the 10th of March, 1942, at the Fuehrer Headquarters. The letter is directed to Pohl and was signed by Himmler. Then a copy of that letter was transmitted by you to Grawitz.
In this letter Himmler discusses the possibility of experiments on human criminal persons, as he says, who had to be sterilized in any case.
Do you recall that document?
A: I don't remember the document. This has been submitted to me during the trial, and I assume, that since it bears my signature, I must have seen it at that time.
Q: Now would you please look at page 13, Document No. 044, Exhibit 151, and you will find a file notation with your signature. This notation refers to a conversation which you had with Pohl, and it says in the second but last paragraph — I quote:
The Reichsfuehrer also requests that with the ingredients of this plant on hand, sterilization experiments should now in any case be carried out in the concentration camps.
So you remember this file notation and the entire event as a result of which it was made?
A: No, the same applies here as in the previous document. In that case one might add that the word "consultation" cannot be accepted in its usual meaning. I was not in any way on the same level as Obergruppenfuehrer [Senior Group Leader] Pohl. I had to approach him as an Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel], and as was true in all these cases, I had directives of Himmler recorded in my note book which I read to Pohl. Therefore "a consultation" would be a wrong way of expressing that.
Q: And now will you please look at document, which is found at page 19. It is document 040, exhibit 154. This is a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS personal staff which bears your signature. It is a top secret letter and directed to Gehrlandt SS-Oberfuhrer [Leader]. I call your attention to the first sentence of that document, and it says there and I shall only read a few words:
On account of the absence of the Reichsfuehrer SS, who at present is taking a long official trip, I am acknowledging your letter.
The document also deals with the question of sterilization by using that foreign plant. Would you please state your position shortly?
A: I can remember that event in as much as Himmler, to whom the letter by Gehrlandt had been submitted, gave the directive to write that letter in that form. However, I cannot remember any details.
Q: Had Himmler already been absent for some time when you were writing that letter?
A: I can't tell you that. It was often the case where he issued a directive to write a letter in that form just so he wouldn't have to come into appearance in that matter although he already knew the contents of the letter directed to him.
Q: Now, would you please turn to page 41, which is document 206, exhibit 164. This is a letter by Himmler to the defendant Brack, dated 11 August 1942. A letter where Himmler says that he was interested in seeing that these sterilizations by X—ray were tried out in a camp in a series of experiments. You transmitted this letter for the attention of Pohl and Grawitz. Do you know the contents of that letter?
A: I don't remember it.
Q: Then now would you turn to page 57, document 213, exhibit 171. This is a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS, personal staff, directed to Professor Blauberg. It is marked top secret. This letter bears your signature and was transmitted to various other agencies and persons. The document concerns the sterilization of 1,000 Jewesses and it says on the first page that in one and other case, a practical experiment might be arranged in order to see whether the sterilization was successful or not.
It is a little more drastically expressed in the document. Did you write that letter on your own initiative or did you send this letter off by order of Himmler?
A: This letter was not written by me but this is dictated by Himmler. I never would have dreamed of expressing myself in a manner which used in that letter.
Q: Did you ever discuss the question of sterilization with Himmler?
A: I neither discussed the question of sterilization with Himmler or any other questions. Himmler never spoke to me about any such things. I would express it that conversations between him and me, impossible as it may seem never took place. Perhaps that was because of my not being a good conversationalist, but I think it was mainly because of the distance which was kept between Himmler and me on the basis of our respective knowledge and intelligence.
Q: One remark — Dr. Brandt — in what manner did Himmler speak to you, address you?
A: He always called me by first name, and that dates back from the early days.
Q: And did it continue until the end?
A: Yes, it did.
Q: When did you leave Himmler?
A: One day before his arrest. I was arrested one day before his arrest, that was White Sunday in 1945.
Q: Now in order to come back to this document, I want to ask you is it correct that you knew Himmler intended to carry out sterilization?
A: It is possible that I knew that but I can't tell you that today because I really don't remember these entire events by reason of the abundance of work I had to deal with.
A: I shall now hand you document book No. 7. This deals with experiments to exterminate Jews. It deals with TB Polish Jews. Would you please look at page 1. This is document 246, Exhibit 196. This is a letter of the Reich Governor Greiser, dated the first of May 1942.
It is directed to Himmler and is marked "top secret." Greiser suggests to afford special treatment to the TB Poles, which means to kill them. Do you remember that letter which Himmler received.
A: No, when it was submitted to me during my preliminary interrogation I couldn't remember that event.
Q: Now a possible explanation is missing here for if these things actually came to your office through the courier they had to be selected and sorted out by some person, and then had to be submitted to Himmler. Wouldn't you say you were basically dealing with the sorting out of the mail; is it correct that you read the individual letters when sorting out that mail, or was it often or occasionally the case that you presented these letters to Himmler without reading them, and that you presented them to him immediately, mainly because of the exterior form of the letter from which the contents could be seen?
A: That was necessary merely by reason of time. It was necessary to embark on such a way. I have mentioned before that the courier service only arrived a half an hour before Himmler got up. It was impossible to read all reports or letters in that short period of time which were meant for Himmler. Now if you will look at page 3 you will find a document which bears the number 247, exhibit 197. This is a letter which is — directed to you personally and it states:
Dear Comrade Brandt:
It also refers to the same question, namely, the extermination of Poles, by way of the so-called special treatment. Does that hold true in the case of letters which were sent to you personally, or wouldn't one have to assume that you actually read such letters, and that you only transmitted these letters to Himmler after having read them, and then awaited his decisions and his orders?
A: I certainly read that letter for it was directed to me, but I transmitted it to Himmler since Himmler was referred to in that regard, and only Himmler could make a decision.
Q: What you want to say is that there was practically no difference whether that letter was directed to you personally or directed to Himmler?
A: No. In all of those matters my address has to be considered as being equal to the address of Himmler.
Q: And why did the senders of these letters address you directly rather than addressing Himmler?
A: It was either because this way recommended by Himmler himself, and I tried to describe that a little earlier, or because the people concerned knew that I was sitting in the anti-race and that in that way those letters would get to Himmler anyway.
Q: And now I should like to draw your attention to page 18, Document 441, Exhibit 205. This is your own affidavit dated the 24 October 19466. In number four, of this affidavit you say:
As a result of the suggestions made by Blome and Greiser between eight to ten thousand Poles were exterminated.
This was the original text in German. Another translation reads "miner us" [?] Poles. How did you gain that knowledge?
A: In that connection I have to say that I have no knowledge about that whatsoever.
Q: Mr. Brandt, may I ask you something? May I interject a question? In addition to this affidavit you signed, other affidavits.
A: Yes.
Q: Is it correct that you already withdrew some affidavits because you were incriminating other defendants with then?
A: Yes.
Q: You are speaking about Blome and Greiser? Are you of the opinion even today, that you unjustly incriminated the other defendants in your affidavits?
A: Yes. that is my opinion.
Q: Did you have any concrete factual indications for the matters with which you incriminated the other defendants in a very serious manner? That you often declared that other defendants participated in experiments or that you said that certain defendants had knowledge would have to have knowledge about certain experiments.
I am asking you, did you ever have any basis for any such assertion?
A: I did not have any basis for that. During the interrogation period documents were submitted to me as they are contained here in those books. In addition the interrogating officer made certain remarks. Whatever the formulation was did not originate from me but it was submitted to me in that form. All of that brings not the conclusion which I had to arrive at, on the basis of the documents which were submitted to me by the Prosecution and also on the basis of the remarks made to me by interrogating officer where I agreed to what he told. However, it does not mean that I had any knowledge
Q: But you will admit that by a large degree you were informed about the fact that experiments were being carried on in concentrating camps on human beings?
A: Yes.
Q: You are only saying that you didn't know any details?
A: Yes.
Q: You are saying furthermore that you only acted by express order?
A: Yes.
Q: And as far as you make statements in your affidavits you are saying now that these statements are only reflecting your knowledge today, knowledge which was gained by you after these Document were systematically submitted to you. Is that correct?
A: Yes. I may perhaps explain the figures in that affidavit which are before us now. The interrogating officer asked me, "You know that plan was carried through, didn't you?" And I answered, "No, I don't know that." When questioned repeatedly I finally said again that I didn't know anything about it, that I was convinced that this intention, since it was made was, really carried through. When asked about figures I could only say truthfully that I could make no statements about them. I was then asked to give an estimation and I then stated that a quarter of 32 to 35 thousand could be expected.
Q: Mr. Brandt, you must be clear about the fact that any such estimation is really a monstrosity if you have no indication to prove it. Were you so much under the impression of the documents that you never the less made such a vague estimation, or was your state of health or memory in such a bad state that you acted in good faith when making such estimations.
A: Both cases were true.
THE PRESIDENT: It is now 1230. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30.