1947-03-26, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 26 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHALL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHALL: May it please your honor, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
RUDOLF BRANDT — Resumed
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to be propounded to the witness Rudolf Brandt?
(DR. NELTE in place of DR. SERVATIUS who represents the Defendant Karl Brandt)
DR. NELTE: Professor Brandt asked me to put a few questions to the defendant wnich are of special importance to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Whom did you say requested you to ask him?
DR. NELTE: Dr. Servatius.
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued)
BY DR. NELTE:
Q: Herr Dr. Brandt, in affidavit 4-4, dealing with the selection of concentration camp inmates in particular, on page 1 you say a number of persons from Himmler's entourage were well informed about the experiments. This concerns human experiments. And it says Karl Brandt, Grawitz and Gobhardt were called upon by Himmler as advisers in this question. In the name of Professor Brandt I want to ask you the following question:
Was Karl Brandt, or is Karl Brandt to he called an advisor of Himmler, and if so, on what do you base this fact?
A: He could not be called an advisor of Himmler
Q: Was he very frequently with Himmler?
A: I can remember only one time positively that I saw him at Himmler's headquarters.
Q: Was this in connection with human experiments or the selection of concentration camp inmates?
A: I do not know since I did not know the subject of the discussion.
Q: Now you say further a number of persons were well informed about the experiments. Was Professor Brandt included among those people whom you called the entourage of Himmler who were supposed to be well informed?
A: No.
Q: Then you also say the above mentioned people were members of the SS-Gruppenfuehrer [Group Leader] corps, and the experiments were often discussed among conferences of Gruppenfuehrers. Did you ever see Professor Brandt in a conference of Gruppenfuehrers?
A: No, I cannot remember.
Q: Then for the statements I put to you, you have no factual evidence, nothing which could justify you in making such an assertion or to maintain it today?
A: No, I do not.
DR. NELTE: I thank you.
BY DR. VORWERK (Counsel for the Defendant Romberg):
Q: Witness, in the interest of the truth I should like to ask you a few questions, in particular, to know your own attitude towards the testimony which you have given in writing as well as orally during this trial. Yesterday you testified here that your written testimony, your affidavits, were signed by you under oath without any compulsion, voluntarily. Is that true?
A: I was not forced to sign them but the situation meant in effect that I had to sign them.
Q: Do you mean to say that you did not sign them voluntarily?
A: That is difficult to say, since my state of health at the time in effect made it impossible for me to control my own initiative.
Q: You admit that your oral testimony now to a large extent contradicts your written testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Both testimonies were under oath. You admit that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, there are three possibilities, either your written testimony was false, or the testimony which you are making now is false, or both are false. Which of these three possibilities do you consider the proper one?
A: I should like to say that during the interrogations I was mistaken in many parts in the conclusions which I drew from the documents which were shown to me and from the statements of the interrogator.
Q: Are you aware about the affidavits, which you in part repudiate now, can be submitted in other trials as evidence?
A: Since you put this way, yes.
Q: Are you also aware that in the basis on these affidavits in other trials a picture may arise which does not correspond to the truth?
A: Yes.
Q: Now that is your petition; do you want to repudiate all your former testimony?
A: I can only maintain the testimony which I have made here now.
Q: Upon the charge could be raised against you of giving false testimony under oath; now if that charge should be raised against you, what would you say?
A: I did not do that consciously.
Q: Thank you, no further questions.
MR. PRESIDENT: Any more questions to the witness on behalf of defense counsel. There being none the prosecution may re-cross examine the witness.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor.
MR. PRESIDENT: There being no further questions to be propounded to the witness, the witness is excused from the stand to resume his place in the dock.
Is there any further evidence to be offered in behalf of the defendant Rudolf Brandt?
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I should like to submit a few more affidavits, which are in my document book, and two further affidavits, which I obtained later, but there are only three brief affidavits which I should like to read, and I shall refer to the contents of the rest of the affidavits. In my Document book on page 2, I shall read the affidavit of the witness Gottleb Berger. I identify this exhibit as Rudolf Brandt No. 3; Berger was an SS Obergruppenfuehrer [Senior Group Leader] and a general in the Waffen SS. I shall read beginning with paragraph 3:
In my Document book on page 2, I shall read the affidavit of the witness Gottleb Berger. I identity this complement as Rudolf Brandt No. 3; Berger was as Obergruppenfuehrer and a general in the Waffen SS. I shall read beginning with paragraph 3:
I never knew Rudolf Brandt to be present when I reported to Himmler, but I know that Himmler called for Rudolf Brandt, rang for him, and either dictated to him or gave him instructions.
This is on page 2 in my German Document book. Shall I read this paragraph again? — Paragraph 4:
As far as I could see, it was absolutely out of question that Brandt, in spite of his extraordinary industry, ever had a position of adviser to Himmler. For that he was far too small and insignificant. He had, according to observations I made over several, years, the position of a chief-clerk. I know that he was overworked. Being a loyal and industrious worker he put up with being burdened with more and more work which it was impossible for him to accomplish.
I could not see that he was a confidant of Himmler either, for Himmler had no confidants. Anyhow, Rudolf Brandt did not belong to the circle of persons who had closer contact with Himmler.
And then I should like to read the last two paragraphs:
I know that police matters were not dealt with by Rudolf Brandt. Himmler limited strictly the competence of his subordinates.
Rudolf Brand's private life was a model of propriety; he always was helpful and decent. Therefore, with his soft nature I think that it is out of question that he could have taken part in any crimes against humanity.
Then there follows the signature and the certificate.
Now, I shall read the affidavit of Dr. Martin on page 11 of the German Document Book.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor each one of these affidavits, eighteen pages of them, are in substance the same. I think there might be a more expedient manner than reading each and every document and each and every paragraph thereof.
DR. KAUFLANN: Mr. President, I intend to read only two more documents, which are brief.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for the defense may proceed.
DR. KAUFLANN: Dr. Martin says in Paragraph 4.
THE PRESIDENT: What number do you assign to this exhibit?
DR. KAUFLANN: Rudolf Brandt No. 4, Mr. President.
I made the acquaintance of Rudolf Brandt on the occasion of my making reports to Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. Rudolf Brandt was, as far as I could see, definitely in a subordinate position. If I had known his formal rank in the Personnel Department of Himmler, I would have taken him for a clerk.
I relate you this as an example:
In the autumn of 1944 Rudolf Brandt was called into the office of the Special train by Himmler by ringing a bell. I was there together with Himmler. After having made my reports to him, Rudolf Brandt entered the office and took shorthand notes dictated to him by Himmler. Himmler did not even ask Rudolf Brandt to take a seat. He stood at the table taking notes. After having finished with his dictation, Himmler sent him out again. The subject of my report was an economic matter.
The next document which I should like to read is the document on page 8 of the German Document book, Exhibit No. 5 from Medizinalrat [Medical Councilor] Dr. Felix Kerstom. This is the same man whom the defendant, Professor Gebhardt, has mentioned; it was the Finnish doctor of Himmler.
I herewith declare under oath that I have personally known Dr. Rudolf Brandt since 1939. He was always a properly disposed person, who was ready to help, and always strongly rejected any force or brutality. During my rescue work that I carried out in Germany during the war years of 1943 1945, at the request of the Swedish Government, and the Jewish World Congress in New York, with the result of having rescued and brought to Sweden, thoursands of people from Nazi concentration camps, I often came in contact with Dr. Rudolf Brandt. I found in him an honest and enthusiastic co-worker, and always had his full support in even the most complicated cases. This often placed him in a difficult position with Himmler. Without his unselfish and humane assistance, it would not have been possible to so successfully carry out this rescue work.
Dr. Brandt was an idealist and knew no enmity and no hatred toward the Allies. On the contrary, and understanding with all nations on a peaceful basis was his goal. He often told me that he considered this war as madness and as a crime against humanity.
He was shocked at the megalomania and arrogance of most of the higher Nazi leaders, and deeply indignant over the corruptibility and corruption that was manifold in the Party, and said that his ideals had long since been taken from him. He (Dr. Brandt) had nothing in common with this National Socialism. The result of this was that Himmler isolated him with his work.
In the fall of 1943 Brandt expressed the wish to me, after all these disappointments to find a way to retire from the Party and as a private individual start a new existence for himself and his family.
From my experiences with him I have always considered Dr. Brandt as an honorable man.
Then the signature and certificate.
The next affidavit I shall merely identify. It is the affidavit on page 3 by Dr. Best, Rudolf Brandt No. 6.
The affidavit of Dr. Ficker on page 4; Rudolf Brandt No. 7.
The affidavit of Dr. Fitzner on pages 5 to 6; Rudolf Brandt No. 8.
The Hinze affidavit on page 7 is to be given the Rudolf Brandt No. 9.
The affidavit of Dr. Lammers on page 8 is to be Rudolf Brandt No. 10.
The affidavit of the witness Meehner on page 10 is to be Rudolf Brandt No. 11.
The affidavit of Hanna Reitsch on page 12 is to be given the number Rudolf Brandt No. 13.
THE PRESIDENT: Should that affidavit of Reitsch not be No. 12?
DR. KAUFLANN: I beg your pardon; yes, number 12.
The Schallermeier affidavits on pages 13 to 15 will have the number Rudolf Brandt number 13.
The Schellenberg affidavit pages 16 — 17 will have the number Rudolf Brandt number 14.
The two affidavits of Tiefenbacher and Herrgessel are not in the document book; I identify them as Teifenbacher Rudolf Brandt No. 15 and for Herrgesell —
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not received copies of those affidavits; if they are available they should be before us.
DR. KAUFLANN: Mr. President, then it will be best if I submit these two documents later; or will it be sufficient if I assign the numbers now and had the documents in later
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel may assign the numbers to the affidavits now, then attach the numbers to the exhibits when they are submitted to the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I presume that the prosecution may reserve the right to object to such affidavits?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly they will not be admitted until they are admitted in the presence of the prosecution. The assignment of the numbers to the exhibits is merely tentative, but it might save some trouble if the numbers are assigned now.
DR. KAUFLANN: The Tiefenbacher affidavit will have the number Rudolf Brandt No. 15 and the Herrgesell affidavit will have the number Rudolf Brandt No. 16.
Mr. President, I have concluded my case. I thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will call the case against the defendant Joachim Mrugowsky.
(DR. FLEMMING for the defendant Mrugowsky.)
DR. FLEMMING: I had intended to conduct the case for the defendant Mrugowsky by first calling the witnesses to the stand. However, not a single one of the witnesses who have been approved have arrived yet, so that the procedure is not possible. Also I may point out in this case that among the witnesses there are two who are of the greatest importance for ascertaining the truth. They are the only witnesses who have been found so far who can say from their own knowledge what actually happened in Block 46 in Buchenwald. One is the Capo of the block, Dietsch —
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel in regard to this witness there was presented to me this morning an application that the witness be summoned to Nurnberg, and that application has already been signed and delivered to the Defense Information Center in the Office of the Secretary General.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I might add in regard to Otto Dietsch, I am informed he is to be indicted and go on trial at Dachau. How soon I don't know, and whether or not if will be possible to have him brought here immediately —
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General informed me this morning that the witness would be available this week. The matter being urgent I signed the order and handed it to the Secretary General personally this morning, so that it could be accomplished at the earliest possible moment.
DR. FLEMMING: The second is the witness Bowes Mattitsch (?) who is one of the people who were infected with typhus in Block 46, and survived the experiment. He is in the English zone in a camp. I hope that the Secretary General will succeed in bringing him here in time, and I should like to reserve the right to call him to the stand after the case of Mrugowsky is completed, if necessary.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may have that right. Counsel may inform the office of the Secretary General, if there is anything the Tribunal can do to expedite this witness it will be done.
DR. FLEMMING: Thank you. Then I will call the defendant Mrugowsky to the stand.
JUDGE SEBRING: Defendant Mrugowsky will take the stand as a witness in his own behalf.
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows):
JUDGE SEBRING: You will hold up your right hand and he sworn.
I swear by God the Almighty and omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will add and withhold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: Witness, please describe to the Tribunal briefly your youth and your course of study?
A: I was born on the 15th of August 1905 at Rathenow. My father was a doctor, a general practitioner. I visited the Realgymnasium in my home town and complete this school in 1923 with the Abiturienten Examination. At the beginning of the first World War my father was called in as a Reservist, and the first day of this war he went into the field as a doctor end was killed a few weeks after the beginning of the War. Through his death and economic collapse of Germany after the war, we lost our fortune, so that it was not possible for me to study after I finished high school. I therefore decided to learn a trade, and I decided to become a customs official. At the end of the inflation, however, many officials were dismissed. I escaped this by giving up my position voluntarily, and I entered a bank as an apprentice. I finished my apprenticeship. During this time I tried to earn some money by giving private lessons, so that as soon as possible I would be able to carry out my plan of going to college. At the end of my apprenticeship, with my own aid and with the aid of relatives, I was able to begin to study medicine.
Q: For what reason did you decide to study medicine.
A: I come from a family of doctors. Many friends of my fathers were doctors. I myself at a very early age had a great interest in biology, which these friends of the family directed toward medicine.
Q: Where did you study?
A: I studied in Halle on the Saale.
Q: And where were you trained as medical practitioner?
A: In 1931 I took the State examination. Then I became medical practitioner at the internal section of the City Hospital in Kuestrin on the Oder.
Q: Did you have any specialized training as a doctor?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that?
A: First I was assistant for internal medicine at this hospital. I had intended to become an internist; but I had to try to get to a university from the hospital in a small town, because as a student I had made up my mind to become a high school teacher. At that time positions as assistants at universities were very rare and very difficult to obtain. I was, therefore, glad that on the 1st of January, 1933, I obtained the position of an extra-ordinary assistant at the hygiene institute of the University of Halle. Here I had my specialized training as a hygienist and a bacteriologist, and I gave up my original aim of becoming an internist in this form.
Q: When did you qualify as a lecturer?
A: In 1937 in Halle I qualified as a lecturer in hygiene and bacteriology. In 1939 I became a lecturer in this field at the faculty in Berlin. In September, 1944, at the request of the medical faculty, I was appointed extra-ordinary professor.
Q: And what was your career after you finished your medical training?
A: Because of special circumstances, which I shall describe later, I worked outside of medicine for a year, and then I became hygienist in the young armed SS, which later became the Waffen-SS. From the beginning of 1937 until the collapse I held this position.
Q: What was your position at the outbreak of war?
A: At the outbreak of war I was hygienist, that is, expert for hygiene in the medical office of the SS in Berlin, and at the same time I had a small hygienic bacteriological testing station for the units of the SS, which I had built up.
Q: Were you at the front, and how long?
A: After the end of the Polish Campaign in 1939 the regiments of the Waffen-SS were incorporated into divisions, and medical units were set up for the first time. In the Division "SS-Verfuegungstruppe" I was given the second medical company. I was put in charge of it. I was in charge of this company for over a year and I was in the first French Campaign in 1940.
Q: What did you do at the front?
A: In the sectors of our division we set up dressing stations and took care of the wounded.
Q: Did you report for the front later?
A: At the end of 1940 I was transferred back to Berlin. Grawitz received me saying that now all dreams of the front for me were finished for the rest of the war, and that I would be used only specifically as a hygienist.
In the following years in spite of this I reported for front service four times, for the first time in 1941, after a very significant and excited discussion with Grawitz, which will be mentioned later, and in 1944 for the last time. But all these attempts were refused for it was said that service in combatting epidemics especially typhus was considered front service. This regulation was made at the time because the medical corps and the medical personnel had high losses from typhus at the beginning of the campaign in Russia.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I shall submit Document Mrugowsky No. 40. It is on page 8 of the German and English document book. It is an ordinance of the Waffen-SS which says that employment of doctors and medical personnel in combatting epidemics resulting from dangerous diseases, leprosy, cholera, typhus, yellow fever, psittacosis, plague, small pox and abdominal typhus, typhoid, as well as the care and treatment of these diseases is to be credited as combat service.
I offer this as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 1.
Q: What did you do in Berlin after you returned from the front?
A: I was expert for hygiene in the medical office of the WaffenSS which later became an Amtsgruppe in the Operational Main Office, (Fuehrungshauptamt), and in this office I was in charge of office 16, hygiene. I was also in charge of the hygiene institute of the WaffenSS which developed from the testing station which I have mentioned before.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me, Your Honor, but would it be possible for Dr. Flemming to provide us with the Gazette from which this ordinance of the Waffen-SS was taken?
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, that is possible. I can't do so at the moment, but I shall give it to the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: What did you do as chief of office 16 in the medical office of the Waffen-SS?
A: As expert for hygiene I was in charge of all questions of epidemic control and hygiene, especially water supply and sewage in the posts of the Waffen-SS. If the investigations showed that some order had to be issued, I had to report to my chief, Dr. Genzken, and he as chief of the medical office decided what was to be done. He issued the orders as far as they were medical orders, or in the military field he had the orders issued by the competent command post.
Q: As chief of office 16 you had no authority to issue orders then?
A: No. For this part of my activity as expert I had no authority to issue orders.
Q: Now how was this matter handled in the institutes under you?
A: As office chief I was in charge of, first of all, my own hygiene institute of the Waffen-SS in Berlin and a number of other institutes which developed in the course of time. I was a disciplinary superior for these institutes and the troop commander, military commander. I had, therefore, the power to issue orders to them directly, and I had the corresponding responsibility.
Q: How big was the responsibility?
A: I was responsible for orders issued to my institutes which I issued myself. As hygiene expert I was responsible for the accuracy of the information which I gave my chief, on the basis of which he issued his orders and instructions.
Q: How did you issue the orders to the institutes under you, orally or in writing?
A: After my return from the campaign in France, my institute developed rather rapidly. The sections were situated apart — they were not together in a small space — and from 1941 on outside institutes were added. From that time on there was the constant custom that all important orders should be issued only in writing.
Q: Why did you do that?
A: It has been my experience that an oral order, the execution of which cannot be supervised immediately, is very quickly forgotten, or is distorted in memory. In order to be able to check exactly what I had ordered I principally always issued important instructions only in writing also in my own Berlin Institute to the Section Chiefs.
Q: Did you give assignments to your associates who were not in Berlin by telephone?
A: No, I issued only written assignments, which might possibly have been issued orally beforehand, but were followed by written orders.
Q: Now I come to the organization of the epidemic control in the Waffen SS. The epidemic control service, in the Waffen SS was your field of work as chief of Office 16?
A: Yes.
Q: Since when was all of that epidemic control of the Waffen SS under your charge?
A: From the end of 1940.
Q: Were you responsible for epidemic control in the concentration camps as well?
A: No, the concentration camps had their own medical service. The doctor in charge was Dr. Lolling. His competence in all medical questions and his independence he always guarded anxiously. In the field of epidemic control and hygiene, however, we were sometimes called upon by him to deal with definite specialized questions which were specified carefully in writing because we had the opportunity to make the necessary bacteriological and chemical tests. In general, aside from epidemic control, this dealt with the question of the water supply and the disposal of sewage. The results of our investigations were submitted as expert opinion in the form of suggestions. They were sent to the Chiefs of the Medical Service of the concentration camps and we had no influence on whether these suggestions were actually carried out or not. Very often they were not observed but very often they were.
Q: How was epidemic control in the Waffen SS organized?
A: Epidemic control was centrally organized in the Waffen SS in my hands, that is the central office was in Berlin. This was possible because the entire Waffen SS was administered centrally from Berlin. It was not decentralized into defense districts or Wehrkreise like the Army. Therefore, in the German Reich and in the occupied territories, which were designated as army rear areas, we set up specialized institutes which worked independently and which were responsible to the Berlin office. From 1942 on, we also had bacteriological field laboratories with the corps of the Waffen SS at the front.
Q: Dr. Genzken was your military superior, as Chief of Office 16 and also as Chief of the Institute. Now what was your relationship of subordination that is, you and Genzken, to Grawitz?
A: Dr. Genzken was my immediate superior in my capacity as office chief as well as Chief of the Hygiene Institute, and his superior was Grawitz, but only in the technical field, in the medical field, not in the military field. Grawitz had the right to issue instructions in his capacity as Reich Physician of the SS and the highest doctor in the SS, and he frequently used this right to issue instructions. On the basis of this right he gave orders and instructions to members of other staffs.
Q: In 1943 you became Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS. Before that, in addition to your activities as Chief of Office 16, and as Chief of the Hygiene Institute, were you also Chief Hygienist of the Waffen SS, I mean Chief Hygienist of the SS?
A: If Grawitz, on the basis of his right to issue instructions, called upon me to deal with certain problems, I had to use this title, Chief Hygienist, but that was a rare occurrence and it was merely a paper title, if I may call it that.
Q: You have stated that it was a rare occurrence for you to be called upon by Grawitz for a certain job, then I may say that only happened on isolated occasions?
A: Yes, there are always certain definite problems which Grawitz brought to my attention, for example, whether when cholera appeared at the Eastern front protective vaccination was necessary, or if the execution of small pox vaccination which had been ordered for all members of the Wehrmacht was necessary also for the Waffen SS or not.
Q: Did you always report to your Chief Genzken whenever Grawitz called upon you officially as Chief Hygienist?
A: No, these additional tasks were not in Dr. Genzken's field of work. Grawitz had reserved two fields for himself, that was planning and research; and Dr. Genzken always tried to deal only with those matters which corresponded to his position in the Waffen SS; and on the other hand Grawitz always endeavored to assert his whole competency for planning and research. For this reason, Dr. Genzken generally refused to have any knowledge of such things which concerned Grawitz because they were none of his business. On the other hand Grawitz was very careful that no one should interfere with him.
Q: Was there a great deal of work in general when Grawitz called upon you directly?
A: No, I have already said that there were individual cases called for by special circumstances.
Q: Did Grawitz inform you about his work?
A: No.
Q: Before the 1st of September, 1943; before the reorganization of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS, did you participate in conferences in the staff of Grawitz? What was discussed there, how often did such conferences take place?
A: Grawitz had a very uncertain position in respect to his Chief generally. He was not able to get on good terms with him. I knew that for about two years Himmler did not use his services at all as Reichs Physician. Therefore, he tried at every possible opportunity to get in Himmler's good graces again. Therefore, he wanted to concentrate his medical service more strictly than it was at the time. He had many other main offices which were under him. I believe it was at the beginning of 1943 he had conferences in his staff with these chief doctors. These conferences usually took place once a week, and those specialists from the staff of Dr. Genzken who were frequently called upon by him to deal with specialized tasks had to take part in these discussions.
Very soon we quit attending these conferences. We thought up excuses so that we would out have to go because those conferences were without any practical value and merely impaired us in carrying out our other duties.
Q: In this connection I submit to the Tribunal the affidavit of Mrs. Gerda Krueger, the former secretary in the Medical Office of the Waffen-SS. This is document Mrugowski No. 45. It is on page 9 of the Document Book. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 2. Mrs. Gerda Krueger makes the following affidavit. First there is the customary introduction which I shall not read. Then she says:
From 1939 to the surrender in 1945, I worked as a secretary to the office chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen-SS, Dr. Karl Blumenreuther.
I know that since about 1942 weekly conferences between the office chiefs and the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz, were held in the latter's office. These conferences were, during the first weeks, also regularly attended by my chief Dr. Blumenreuther. Later on he only sent his adjutant, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] Rudolphi, as Dr. Blumenreuther did not regard these discussions as serious and essential ones but rather as a loss of time.
The gentlemen often joked in my presence about the uninteresting agenda of these conferences and made also angry utterances on that subject. Finally even the adjutant, with the consent of the Blumenreuther, stayed away from these conferences altogether.
From the conversations of Rudolphi I learned that often quite insignificant matters and sometimes only personal affairs were discussed. Also, it appears that many private things were discussed there.
And then she tells of an episode. I needn't read that.
Q: Effective the first of September 1943 the Medical Service of the Waffen SS was reorganized. What was your relationship of subordinate after this reorganization?
A: After the reorganization of the Medical Service of the SS I had two positions. First I was Chief of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS as I had been before. And, secondly, I was expert for Hygiene on Grawitz's staff. That was an office in which as such I had the title of Chief Hygienist.
Q: Which of the two was your main position?
A: Most of my work, as before, was in my institute, when the reorganization was ordered, Grawitz called me and Dr. Blumenreuther, who was also to be on his staff, and he told us that on Himmler's orders we were to leave the staff of the Operational Main Office (Fuhrungshauptamt) and be transferred to his staff.
He ordered that Blumenreuther was to become a full member of his staff, and he was given a room in his office. I, on the other hand, was to stay in my institute because I was to continue my scientific work, and, in addition, I was to carry out the business of Hygienist on his staff. I was only loosely attached to his staff — those were his words.
Q: What was the distance from your institute?
A: About 25 kilometres.
Q: Did the office of the Chief Hygienist have its own personnel?
A: No. The work was done by the personnel of the Hygiene Institute.
Q: How often did you see Grawitz to report to him?
A: About once every week or once every two weeks for one-half hour to an hour.
Q: Mr. President, at this point I intended to submit Document Mrugowsky No. 26 but it is in Document Book 1-A and the English translation is not yet available. Therefore, I shall reserve the right to submit this document later
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may submit the document later on when the book is ready.
Q: What were the duties of the Chief Hygienist?
A: It was Grawitz's intention that all questions of hygiene and epidemic control, as well as other medical questions which he had to deal with as Reich Physician-SS, should be handled centrally by his staff. But this intention was not carried out because the necessary organization was lacking. Grawitz had only the right to issue instructions to the doctors, and he had no military right to issue orders. He could merely make suggestions. He could say you must treat this disease with such and such treat. But if the order had any effects outside of medicine he was no longer able to issue the order, but the order had to be issued by the competent military commander. As Chief Hygienis I had the same capacity that I had on the staff of the Operational Main Office. I dealt with the questions that came up but I did not have any right to issue orders.
Q: What individual problems did you deal with as chief Hygienist?
A: In the one and one-half years that the office existed really only two major problems were handled. First, the distribution of disinfectants to the medical offices of the SS. Because of the air war, which had increased in intensity, German industry was no longer able to supply the necessary drugs for epidemic control in sufficient quantities. The things in which there existed the greatest scarcity were rationed by the State and each organization, that is Wehrmacht or SS, Police, or Labor Service, etc., was given a certain allotment with which had to suffice. The distribution was done by my staff. The requisitions came in from the unit doctors to my staff and delivery was made by the Central Medical Depot of the Waffen-SS. The second big problem was the effort to attain central direction of epidemic control in all branches of the SS and in the Police. The necessary prerequisite had to be attained first. The first thing necessary was obligation to report contagious diseases in all branches of the SS and Police uniformly. Such an obligation to report had hitherto existed only according to State regulation: within the Waffen-SS and the Police. It also existed theoretically for the concentration camps but these figures were kept secret and were not passed or so that I, as a hygienist, did not learn about them and could not introduce any foresighted planning for epidemic control. Therefore I issued a corresponding order, discussed it, among others, with the chief doctor of the concentration camps, who agreed at first; but, after introduction of many changes, he resumed his duty of secrecy and he took the point of view that he was not able to give the figures of prisoners suffering from epidemic to an agency which did not belong to the concentration camp itself. Therefore, the whole measure in effect was ineffective and I was in no position to intervene.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.