1947-03-28, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)

Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 28 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.

Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.

There will be order in the Court room.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you have ascertained that all of the defendants are present in Court?

THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.

Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness MRUGOWSKY.

JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY — Resumed (Direct Examination — Continued)

DR. FLEMING (Counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky): Mr. President, yesterday at the end of the session you ruled that I submit an index of the documents which I have read but which I hadn't yet submitted because they are in the supplemental document book and give then exhibit numbers.

I should like to offer Mrugowsky Document 4-a, which is to be found in the supplemental document book, I, page 76. It is an excerpt from the Reich Legal Gazette of the year 1917, regarding treatment of viruses. I offer this as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 27. That is document Mrugowsky 4-a.

THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, counsel. Will you please repeat that offer?

DR. FLEMING: It is document Mrugowsky 4-A. The Tribunal has not as yet available the supplemental volume, and it hasn't been translated yet.

It is document Mrugowsky 4-A in supplemental volume I, page 76. I offer it as exhibit Mrugowsky No. 27.

MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor. This is extremely confusing for me, as I have three Mrugowsky document books now: Document books 1-, 1-a and 2; and now he speaks of a supplemental volume which doesn't include the documents in the index, and I wonder if he could clear that up.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has only two English documents books of Mrugowsky so far.

DR. FLEMING: The Tribunal has so far 1 and 1-A, Document Volume 2 has not yet been translated. After it was completed, I yet received a number of other documents.

THE PRESIDENT: We cannot proceed with these documents which are in supplement book No. 2. There were several offered and narked as exhibits which were to be included in Mrugowsky document book 1-A, which we now have, and I thought in so far as those documents were concerned they could now be properly admitted in evidence.

DR. FLEMING: Yes, I beg your pardon. I misunderstood the Tribunal. I offer Mrugowsky 2, which is to be found on page 153 of the document book 1-a. This is an excerpt from the Reich Legal Gazette of 1900, to be found at page 306, and concerns the duty of reporting so-called commonly dangerous diseases, such as leprosy, cholera, typhus, yellow fever and small pox. I offer it as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 28. Again, Mrugowsky No. 2, on page 153 —

MR. HARDY: Your Honors, I am sure Dr. Fleming misunderstood this Tribunal. This seems to be an entirely new offer that has never been referred to. I think he is now proceeding to put in all of his documentary evidence.

DR. FLEMING: The document was mentioned yesterday when Mrugowsky said in case of dangerous diseases the SS hospital treatment was considered to be a front line duty.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct.

MR. HARDY: I have never marked it in my book as being offered before, your Honor, and I understood you to mean documents he has offered before.

THE PRESIDENT: As I remember the matter, counsel stated for some reason this document was not ready to be offered, but if counsel for the Prosecution has any objection to the document being offered at this time it will be delayed, and if counsel has no objection we will proceed. That is Mrugowsky document No. 21?

DR. FLEMING: I offer document Mrugowsky No. 21 in connection with the testimony of the defendant Mrugowsky that treatment of dangerous diseases within the Waffen SS was considered to be a front line duty. I wasn't in a position to identify that document yesterday, because the English translation was not yet available. The English translation only arrived during the session yesterday. For the same reason I didn't identify another two documents yesterday, the first is Mrugowsky document 19 which is on page 154. This is an excerpt from a paper of the defendant Mrugowsky from the medical clinic periodical regarding typical and abnormal courses of the disease of typhus. The defendant Mrugowsky mentioned this paper when asked the question whether typhus was extremely prevalent in Germany. He stated in that connection that, for instance, in Naples, the American commission had found cases where human beings, after failing ill of typhus, fell dead in the s streets. Similar cases were described in his paper and I am now submitting as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 29, document Mrugowsky 19, on page 154, which will become exhibit No. 29. In that connection I should like to ask the defendant:

BY DR. FLEMING:

Q: Witness, can you state under your oath that the cases which you mentioned in your paper were actually happening in the manner in which you recorded them?

A: The observations which lead me to this paper were made in the year 1941, that is during the first time when typhus ever came up in Germany. They are not based on observations in concentration camps but on observations with the army and civilian populations of the occupied Eastern territories. In that connection, cases were observed where within a space of two days persons died without having regained their consciousness.

Q: This paper was published in the Medical Clinic Periodical which appeared on 27 February, 1942? When did this paper have to be submitted by you in order to appear on the 27th of February 1942.

A: The manuscript for any such publication would have to be submitted about three months before its publication in a weekly paper to the publishing house. There would have to be corrections made, et cetera, and it is certain that this paper was finished at the end of 1941 and then submitted to the editor's office.

Q: That was at a time when the human experiments in Buchenwald had not yet started?

A: Yes, that is right. That has nothing whatsoever to do with these experiments.

DR. FLEMING: As the last of the documents to be submitted yet, I offer Mrugowsky No. 63, which is to be found on page 171 of document book 1. Again No. 63, on page 171 — this is one of the documents originating from Marburg —

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, counsel.

DR. FLEMING: On page 71, Mr. President, document Mrugowsky No. 63, page 71.

This is one of the documents which I received from Marburg, and for which, according to the ruling of the Tribunal, I shall submit photostats of the original with certification of its authenticity. This is a file notation which was made by Dr. Denmitz, who was mentioned repeatedly yesterday, the head of the Behring Works in Marburg, about the conference of the 29th of December 1941. On the last page, page 4 of the document, this is page 74 of the document book, it is stated:

A plan of experiments was discussed with Dr. Mrugowsky; Weigel's vaccine and the vaccine of the Robert Koch institute were included in this plan. When we asked that the vaccine of the Behring works should also be included in this test, Professor Gildemeister remarked that he was not interested in them. In the course of later discussions he probably realized that this peculiar point of view — for it was regarded as such by all participants — could not be maintained and he advised us to get in touch with Dr. Mrugowsky himself, so that this vaccine too, might be included in the test. Regarding this it was intended to have the vaccine ready in its present form and in the double concentration for those experiments and to inform Dr. Mrugowsky on 6 January after his return from Kiew.

This is a confirmation of something I already proved yesterday by other documents. I offer that as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 30. As I said before, I shall later submit photostatic copies of the original.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, counsel. Counsel, I think you did not understand me. On the first day of the opening of the case of the defendant, Mrugowsky, as I remember, you offered three documents in evidence. At that time Document book 1-A had not been prepared, and the documents were not available in the English translation.

Nevertheless, exhibit numbers were assigned to these documents, and those documents were the only ones to which I referred. I was not endeavoring to interfere with the orderly trial of your case as you desire to conduct it, but it did occur to me that it would be a good idea to have those documents to which exhibit numbers had been assigned, definitely marked in our books as exhibits received, and those were the only documents to which I referred.

DR. FLEMING: In that case I misunderstood the Tribunal. Using the index I may perhaps compare the documents and the exhibit numbers once more.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel it is not necessary to do that now. You may take the time and find those three documents later and submit then later on in the day, so that we can regularly mark them.

MR. HARDY: I might submit, your Honor, that two of the documents you are referring to, one is exhibit 17 on page 159, and exhibit 6, page 167, those two he had referred to before. We received one document book 1-A, that wild be page 159, that is No. 17, and then page 167, which is No. 6.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not believe that has been given an exhibit number, has it, Mr. Hardy?

MR. HARDY: Yes, I have it marked as Exhibit No. 6, Your Honor. Now those are the only ones that I have as haven't been introduced before.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat again the document number of Mrugowsky No. 6.

MR. HARDY: That is document Mrugowsky No. 26, Exhibit No. 6, which is an affidavit of Dr. Karl Blumenreuther on page 167 of the document book 1-A.

DR. FLEMING: And Dr. Mrugowsky No. 48 on page 154

THE PRESIDENT: Mrugowsky document No. 26?

DR. FLEMING: No. 23 is Exhibit 26. That is on page 167.

MR. HARDY: Does the Court also have Mrugowsky document 23 marked exhibit 26? I think that taxes care of all the documents which have been introduced today in document book 1-A.

JUDGE SEBRING: What page is that on.

MR. HARDY: That would be on page 161, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: The matter is possibly completed and counsel may proceed with the examination.

DR. FLEMMING: The defendant was answering the question yesterday at the close of the session whether he remembered his testimony on the 25 July 1946 on the occasion of his preliminary interrogation about Rutenol and Acridin experiments, and whether he was in error at that time. The witness stated that he actually made a mistake on the occasion of that preliminary interrogation, and on the basis of documents presented and those he had obtained in the meantime he again remembers correctly the facts. In this connection I should like to submit a number of documents. The first will be Mrugowsky document No. 24, on page 128, of Document Book I-a. This document Mrugowsky 24 on page 128. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 31. This is an affidavit of Professor Bieling at Marburg. After the customary introduction he states:

During a visit at the office of Herr Mrugowsky, Dr. Ding told me that he had received Nitroacridin drugs from the dye works in Hoechst, in order to test their effect on persons ill with typhus and that the results which he had achieved were unsatisfactory. I reported that afterwards in Hoechst. As far as I remember, however, Herr Mrugowsky was not present at this conversation with Dr. Ding.

As the next document I offer Document Mrugowsky 43 which is to be found on page 129 of the same document book. I repeat Document 43 on page 129. This will become Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 32. This is an affidavit of one Heinrich Neumann, who is a member of the Dye Works at Hoechst. He states in his affidavit, after the customary introduction, and I quote:

I know Dr. Mrugowsky, the former Hygienist of the Waffen-SS. His defense counsel submitted the question to me, whether I ever discussed with Dr. Mrugowsky therapeutical experiments with the drugs Acridin, Methylcn blue or Rutenol which were to be carried out on persons sick with typhus.

In this connection I state the following;

1. The drugs Acridin and Methylcn blue Rutenol, — I do not know Rutenol, — are being produced by the works, N. Hoechst. The sale was effected by Bayer-Leverkusen. The scientific handling of these drugs was made by the Production department, by the scientists of the firm Bayer in Leverkusen and by the scientists of the Berlin offices of the firm Bayer.

2. I myself was only deputy to the commercial manager of the department Behring works at Leverkusen and only handled commercial affairs.

3. As the department Bayer and Behring works were completely separated from one another, I had never anything to do with these drugs and therefore could never conduct any negotiations about them. Therefore I could not have spoken and actually never spoke with Dr. Mrugowsky about such therapeutical experiments, and I never gave him those drugs for such experiments.

The next is a document Mrugowsky 88. It is to be found on page 88 of the Document Book. I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. It is to be found on page 227. It is Mrugowsky 88, on page 227, of Document Book 1-a. This is an affidavit of Karl Ludwig Lautenschlaeger who was the head of the pharmaceutics of the Hoechst Dye Works. I repeat Document Mrugowsky No. 88 on page 227. I offer this document as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 33. Lautenschlaeger states, after the customary introduction, and I quote:

Since about 1928 I was director of the pharmaceutical department of the Hoechster Dyeing Plant of the I. G. Farben Industrie A.G, and since 1938 manager of the factory. Our pharmaceutical preparation Balkanol, has for at least 15 years been used in clinical tests again and again causing suppuration especially against sepsis.

When typhus was spreading rapidly at the beginning of the war, I suggested to the competent experts of the firm to ascertain whether any of our preparations would act against typhus. Mr. Fussgaenger had experimented with Balkanol on a typhus strain pathogen to mice and had obtained good results. I therefore arranged that this preparation be distributed to various clinics and military hospitals and tested there. For this purpose it was called 3582.

One day, I cannot exactly remember when, Dr. Weber told me that a SS-Doctor, Dr. Ding, wanted to come to Hoechst, in order to inspect our experimental set-up personally. I told Dr. Weber to bring him over to me as well, as I wanted to talk to him, if my time would permit it. I thought that Dr. Ding came from a military hospital in Berlin.

I had a short talk with Dr. Ding, during which he made an allusion which struck me. He showed me a number of curves of the cases treated in his clinic, the results of which I queried in comparison with other results. Thereupon Dr. Ding said that my cases are very carefully observed and very well treated. He dropped a remark to the effect that his cases were partly, or altogether, dosed infection. I replied that this did not mean anything to me, and I asked him whether he had used any serum. He answered evasively, and said amongst other things, that he had inoculated as well, I, thereupon, broke off the conversation rather abruptly and informed Dr. Ding on his request for further preparations that unfortunately we were unable to put further material at his disposal for experiments. As the conversation with Dr. Ding and his remark had made a strong impression on me, I asked Dr. Weber to come to me alone soon afterwards and I forbade him absolutely to supply further preparations to Dr. Ding or to correspond with him.

The reports of other clinics about their results with Rutenol and Akridin-Granulate in typhus cases were relative favorable. I especially remember Professor Holler in Vienna and Professor Alvens in Frankfurt a.M., Municipal Hospital Sachsenhausen who, as far as I can remember, treated about 30 cases of typhus with that preparation.

I only knew Professor Mrugowsky by name and I have never seen him nor spoken to him. There is nothing known to me about our supplying him with our preparations Rutenol or Akridin for his experiments in Buchenwald.

I further offer Document Mrugowsky 65 which is on page 108 of the same Document Volume. This is an affidavit made by Dr. Bruemmer of the Hoechs Dye Works. I offer that as Mrugowsky Exhibit 34. Dr. Bruemmer says, after the customary introduction:

I assert under oath that according to the results of the investigations which I carried out most scrupulously, the two exposes attached to this Affidavit of the I. G. Farbenindustrie A.G., Frankfurt on Main-Hoechst, Chemical-pharmaceutical and Sero-bacteriological Department, were used in this for in the year 1943 to make known the two preparations nitroacridin 3582 and rutenol.

There follow two exposes which I only submit to the Tribunal for its judicial notice without reading them, with the fever charts attached.

Two further documents in connection with that point are contained in the Supplementary Volume which I shall submit at a later date.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: You know the entry in the Ding Diary of the 10th of June 1943, regarding the typhus therapeutical experiments with Othromin. Would you please define your position to that?

A: I don't know the preparation Othromin. I only heard about that experiment by looking through Document No. 263. At any rate I had nothing to do with that series of experiments.

DR. FLEMMING: I submit to the Tribunal the Document No. 85. This can be found on page 222 of the Document Book I a. I repeat Mrugowsky 85, on page 222. This is the affidavit of the former Obermedizinalrat [Chief Medical Officer] Dr. Christiansen who was active in the Ministry of the Interior. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 35. Werner Christiansen says, after the customary introduction, and I quote:

I was from 20/5/1940 onward one of the persons dealing with epidemic in the Medical Department of the Reich Ministry for Home Affairs. In this capacity I received the reports about epidemics which occurred among the civilian population of the Reich.

In 1942 a violent epidemic of typhoid broke out at Husum, in Schleswig-Holstein. Infected crabs were soon found to be the carriers. When I worked on this epidemic, I remembered several articles of Professor Lockemann, Director of the Chemical Department of the Robert-Koch-Institute in Berlin, dating from 1940. In these publications Lockemann reported about the secretion of rhodanium in the human gastric juice. Rhodanium here has the effect, as Lockemann shows, of increasing the germicidal power of the gastric juice 60 to 200 fold.

Then follows the suggestion of Christiansen who developed a preparation in order to help the gastric juices to prevent. He described how he experimented on himself and continually had his gastric juices examined and then he states:

Those experiments on my own body took place from the beginning until the middle of 1943. After I had at the beginning of my experiments, shown the preparation to agree with the human organism and had reported to Conti hereon he declared: I should recommend the preparation to medical officers in case of typhus, typhoid and dysentery epidemics, for preventive use by the population. This was done about the middle of 1943 in the districts Oppeln, Dresden, Posen and Danzig and Western Prussia.

Conti told me casually that he would, if the occasion arose cause the preparation to be used in a SS-formation by one Dr. Ding.

About the fall of 1943 Conti gave me about 30 charts of patients which I was to evaluate. He said they were the charts of a typhus epidemic in an SS-formation.

I gathered from the charts that Othromin had been administered to the patients for therapeutical use. After the outbreak of a disease it cannot have any healing effect according to its nature? it is intended for prevention only and its preventive effect comes from its killing in the stomach bacteria that have been brought there with the food.

Accordingly it had no effect when it was used with the SS.

Through what channel Othromin or the suggestion to use the preparation came from Conti to Dr. Ding, I do not knew. Othromin was also available through trade channels.

Dr. Ding was not known to me, nor did I know Grawitz.

I become acquainted with Mrugowsky in the Reich Ministry for Home Affairs at a meeting concerning the introduction of the continuous testing through State Organizations, of all vaccines against typhus manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry through the "Institute for Experimental Therapy" in Frankfurt a/M., and again at a second meeting of the Executive Committee for Disinfection and Protection against Epidemics. His name would therefore have definitely stuck in my memory, if it had been mentioned in connection with the Othromin business.

Then he further states that he wrote a paper about Othromin.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: Do you have anything to say on that affidavit?

A: This affidavit shows, first, that this preparation was not developed upon our instigation but upon the instigation of the Ministry of the Interior. Secondly, that Conti had himself told Dr. Christiansen that he, Conti, would have this drug tested by Dr. Ding. Furthermore, that he himself had received 30 case histories which he handed over to Dr. Christiansen for his evaluation. Obviously, Conti exercised a direct influence on Dr. Ding for he states that he would have this drug used and he did not say that Ding would act on his own initiative in any other manner. He is speaking in a very definite manner. Furthermore, it is also confirmed here that there must have been a channel of some kind going from Conti to Ding and this, naturally, also confirmed that I had nothing to do with it.

Q: Now, I come to the question as to whether in regard to the typhus experiments conducted by Ding you can be held responsible for any reason at all. Would you please state how the subordinate relationship of Dr. Ding was?

A: When Himmler, in the year of 1941, ordered the experimentation on human beings Ding was assigned for this experiment by order of Himmler, probably at the suggestion of Grawitz. I remember a written order by Himmler which was held very brief. He said that these experiments were to be carried through and he furthermore stated that Dr. Ding was to be assigned for that purpose, which would not prejudice his tasks which he was carrying out up to this point. That was an additional task. This task he was carrying out then would he felt very greatly outside the scope of his channel of command, to the task which he held up to that point — the preparation of vaccines. The human experiments, however, were a new field of work. It would not fall with his old field of work and would not fall within this relationship of command.

Q: Was it possible for such a double subordination to exist? In that case Ding would have to be subordinate to you for the production of vaccines and subordinate to Grawitz for the typhus experiments.

A: Such a double subordination was not only possible within the SS but throughout the entire Wehrmacht. It is quite feasible that one belongs to one agency and, in spite of that, carries through an order for another agency and on their responsibility.

I personally am an example for that. When in the year 1943, before the reorganization of the Medical Service of the SS, I was subordinate to Dr. Genzken. I was assigned by Dr. Grawitz for special tasks and, in case of these special tasks, was subordinate to Dr. Grawitz and not Dr. Genzken. As it appears technically, Dr. Grawitz had a right to issue comman in specialized matters but from personnel and organization point of view, one would have to say that the man concerned was assigned to that alien agency for the carrying out of those special tasks. That is the technical explanation of that situation.

Q: In order to prove your correctness of the statement that such a double situation of subordination is possible. I also refer to the affidavit of the Chief of the former Operational Main Office of the Waffen-SS Hans Juettner, which can be found in Supplementary Volume to Document Book Benzken, document no. 15. This confirms that situation. In addition I mention the affidavit of the former 1-A personnel man of the Waffen-SS, the expert working on personnel questions. Unfortunately my application to obtain an affidavit from that expert has not yet been approved and I shall, therefore, submit it at a later date. From the point of view of channel of command you had nothing to do with typhus experiments of Dr. Ding at Buchenwald?

A: The instigation and basic order emanated from the highest agency. As I said before I could exercise no influence on the individual series of experiments. Naturally, I could exercise no influence or furnish inmates since I was not competent to deal with concentration camp organization and had no access to it and, therefore, could have nothing to do with it.

DR. FLEMMING: I now refer to the document which was already submitted by me — number 38.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. You referred to an application for the taking of an affidavit of a witness. What was the name of that witness whose affidavit you desired?

DR. FLEMMING: Ruoff. R-U-O-F-F. The first name is Joachim. He is in in prison.

THE PRESIDENT: When did you make an application for approval of your leave to take an affidavit of that witness?

DR. FLEMMING: That was probably two or three weeks ago, Mr. President

THE PRESIDENT: Please check that matter with the Defendants Information Center because, as far as I am advised, all applications have been passed on very promptly. Probably the application had been mislaid.

DR. FLEMMING: I now refer to the document, the affidavit which was submitted as Exhibit 13 of the former secretary of Mrugowsky which is to be found on Page 48 of the document volume. I am reading from this affidavit, starting at Page 50, paragraph 4, and I quote. I repeat, Page 50, of the document book, paragraph 4:

I assume with certainty that no written instructions for tests on prisoners reached Ding through Mrugowsky. I never typed any such instructions. It also never came to my knowledge that my deputy ever wrote such a letter during my absence.

It was customary in the Institute for Mrugowsky to issue to the heads of the specialist departments in writing all instructions for the work to be carried out. The formulation was approximately as follows: 'The following question seems interesting in this or that connection (exactly specified in the instructions). Please test this question by experiment, collect the most important publications, and report back to me.' This custom to issue instructions in writing dated at least from 1942. All the correspondence between Mrugowsky and Ding was exclusively concerned with the laboratory in Buchenwald where the vaccine was manufactured, and later on, from 1944 onwards, mainly with the Kammler Works. Mrugowsky only gave written instructions for these matters and for the distribution of vaccine, never for any kind of tests on prisoners.

I can also testify that Mrugowsky never gave telephonic orders for tests to Dr. Ding. Because whenever Mrugowsky conducted an important conversation ever the telephone, whether it was an incoming or an outgoing call, he always dictated to me afterwards a note for the files giving the essential points of the conversation. I can say with certainty that he never dictated a note for the files about a long distance telephone conversation with Dr. Ding-Schuler in which typhus tests on prisoners were mentioned or any kind of instructions for such experiments were given. I can say this with absolute certainty because I knew Mrugowsky's adverse attitude towards such experiments, and a memorandum of that nature would have attracted my attention.

7. Ding's reports about his tests on prisoners went via the Hygiene Institute to Grawitz. These reports, however, were not dealt with by me, but by Stabsscharfuehrer [Staff Squad Leader] Heinz Hollaender. I do not know whether Mrugowsky defined his detailed position in these reports or whether he made use of them in any way.

Nothing became known to me about Dr. Ding having reported about typhus passages on prisoners. I neither heard anything about it from conversations in the Institute.

Had the tests on human beings been carried out through the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS under Mrugowsky's responsibility, the doctors at the Institute would have been working on the practical application and there would certainly have been frequent conversations about these experiments in the institute. I cannot remember any conversation ever having taken place about typhus tests on prisoners.

I further submit the document which was already offered as Exhibit 16. Mrugowsky 39 on Page 39. I repeat, Document Mrugowsky #39 on Page 59. This is the former secretary of Dr. Mrugowsky and she says, on page 60 of the document book, and I quote:

During my activity at the Hygiene Institute it has never come to my attention that Professor Mrugowsky ever gave an order to Dr. Ding to conduct a series of typhus experiments on prisoners. I know that Professor Mrugowsky issued all work orders to the section chiefs of the Institute in form of written file notes. If a telephone conversation concerned a matter of some importance, Professor Mrugowsky also dictated a file note on it. A file note was also made on more important official conferences.

According to my observations, Dr. Ding was only very seldom at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS to see Professor Mrugowsky. As far as I remember, I have seen him only once, or, at the most twice, at the institute and then only for a very short while.

I do not know anything about the requisitioning of prisoners from Buchenwald for the purpose of conducting typhus experiments. I never heard anything of it at the Hygiene Institute.

Q: As Ding's superior, didn't you have to exercise official supervision over him and don't you, for that reason, have to bear the co-responsibility for these experiments?

A: No, an official supervision of Ding and, thereby, a power to issue orders I only had in connection with the production of vaccines in Block 50 and also as regards to other questions of hygiene. With reference to these questions I was Ding's superior. He received orders from me and assignments for which I fully assume responsibility. This, however, does not include the activity in Block 46 for which it had been established by order of Himmler and by the confirmation of Grawitz that this task was not assigned to me. Dr. Grawitz frequently protested at my interferences and I therefore had nothing to do with Block 46 and could not be held responsible since I did not exercise any supervision.

Q: I refer to Document Mrugowsky #26 which is to be found on Page 167 of the document volume 1A. Mrugowsky 26, Page 167, which I am submitting as Exhibit 6. 26 on Page 167. On age 169 I shall read paragraphs 4 and 5:

That Mrugowsky ever had anything to do width Ding's experiments on human beings, I do not know. Mrugowsky did not tell me of a conference with Grawitz in January 1942 at which he (Mrugowsky) indignantly rejected a demand that he should undertake experiments on human beings. I do not believe however, that Mrugowsky ever ordered the Ding series of experiments carried out on prisoners in Buchenwald, particularly since such an order, in my opinion, could only be given by Grawitz or Lolling.

So far as I remember the typhus affair took the following course: The lack of typhus vaccines caused it to be decided, as long ago as the year 1941, to produce this preparation at the Institute of Hygiene and a specially equipped laboratory in Buchenwald. Mrugowsky appointed Ding as head of the latter. The only reason why the establishment of this laboratory did not actually take place until the beginning of January 1943 was simply that Ding, in 1942, fell ill of typhus and after his recovery was ordered to Paris, where he remained until the end of November 1942. In the year 1942 Grawitz obtained an order from Himmler for the establishment of an experimental station in the concentration camp at Buchenwald for the investigation of typhus and appointed Ding as head of the station.

I know nothing of the commencement of activities at this station, since this was a purely medical matter and concerned with a concentration camp. The laboratory was equipped in first rate style by the central medical service depot (Zentralsanitaotslager) and the production of typhus vaccines was greatly supported from my end. I had no connection with the experimental station except in relation to demands which came to me through the ordinary way of business.

And paragraph 11 at the bottom of Page 171:

Grawitz never spoke to me of experiments on human beings in the concentration camps. Nor can I give any information as to whether it was only Grawitz, or whether it was also Himmler, who gave such orders to certain concentration camps.

Q: Dr. Hoven, in his affidavit, Document N0-429, Prosecution Exhibit 281, stated that Ding received all orders and directives from you and that his reports went to you. Would you define your position to that?

A: I have repeatedly pointed out that such a general statement cannot be correct. It is correct insofar as it refers to Block 50 but it is erroneous insofar as it refers to Block 46. Obviously Ding misinformed Dr. Hoven.

Q: Dr. Hoven states as channel of command: Ding, Mrugowsky, Genzken and Grawitz. Is that correct?

A: This statement is correct as it refers to the normal channel, as it refers to the correspondence of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS. This only has to do with the vaccine production in Block 50 or other hygienic matters but does not refer to Block 46. This channel of command is wrong as far as Block 46 is concerned.

Q: Ding, according to Dr. Haven's statement, allegedly took part in a conference with you three days out of every two weeks. Is that correct?

A: Hoven, in his testimony, repeatedly pointed out that Ding was frequently on trips. In his work report about the year 1943, however, he mentioned only one single official trip to Berlin. That presumably is correct.

As becomes evident from a number of my documents he was actually only very rarely in Berlin and not as frequently as Dr. Hoven stated. This statement in the work report seems very probable to me for the reason that at that time, Ding, according to Dr. Hoven's testimony, endeavored to cover himself in many ways and he therefore would have tried to state in his report anything which would indicate a large scale activity. But he naturally could not put down more duty trips to Berlin than he actually carried out for I certainly would have noticed it.

Q: Did the typhus experiments in Buchenwald have any practical success?

A: The first series of vaccine experiments already had shown that the vaccines were not equal as to their effectiveness. It becomes evident from Dr. Ding's report how these variances expressed themselves. One vaccine had an excellent effectiveness, whereas two vaccines were rather weak in comparison. The production of these weak and comparatively ineffective vaccines, probably by instigation of the Reich Ministry of the Interior, Professor Gildemeister, was prevented. Gildemeister was in a position to do that because he was the typhus expert of the Reich Ministry of the Interior, as can be seen from two of my documents. If these ineffective vaccines had continued to be used, they would not have shown their value in practice and as a result all confidence which was put into them would have failed and more persons would have died of typhus than if they had been properly vaccinated. The fact that already in the beginning of 1942 these ineffective vaccines had been excluded is, in my opinion, only to be attributed to the result of Ding's work. That undoubtedly is a very important and valuable result of the experiments which I am sure saved the lives of thousands of persons.

Q: Before continuing I should like to discuss with you the testimony of the witness Kogon. In the transcript of 7 January 1947, in the morning session, page 1184 of the English transcript and page 1214 of the German transcript, Kogon said that a man by the name of Koehler had been found dead in his cell in the bunker and acute poisoning was assumed; that Koehler was autopsied in the presence of a scientist coming from Jena and certain drugs the alkaloid series were found in his stomach. In that connection I submit the document Mrugowsky 29. This can be found on page 177 of the document book, Mrugowsky 29, page 177. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 37. This is an affidavit by a former SS judge, Dr. Konrad Morgen. Dr. Morgen states:

I ordered the arrest in Lublin of Hauptscharfuehrer [Staff Seargent] Koehler and had him brought to Buchenwald. Subsequently, he made very incriminating statements against various persons.

I had to interrupt his hearing in Buchenwald to go to Kassel to effect a warrant of arrest against Dr. Hoven. In Kassel I was informed by telephone that Hauptscharfuehrer Koehler had attempted to commit suicide and that he had been committed to the garrison hospital in Weimar in a serious condition. Shortly thereafter, I received a second telephone call to the effect that it was not a case of attempted suicide but that he had been delivered with serious signs of poisoning and that he was dying.

After receiving this information, I went at once to Weimar accompanied by the presiding judge of Kassel. Koehler was still alive. He was fully conscious but already showed signs of death. Everything that had happened between Friday noon and Saturday evening was an absolute blank for him. He was therefore unable to make a statement as to how he had been poisoned.

Koehler died 36 hours after making his statement and his body was dissected by the court medical expert, Professor Dr. Timm, of Jena. Traces of poison were neither found during the dissection nor in the subsequent chemical-pharmacological examination. Also there was no poison found in experiments on animals. On the other hand, the dissection proved that Koehler had been completely healthy. He only had a small harmless tumor on the supra renal glands.

The further part of the affidavit refers to a different point, to which I shall revert later. Would you please state your position on that contradiction?

A: The testimony of Kogon gives the impression that he was speaking of his own knowledge. That is not the case. He is only repeating what someone else had told him. He made a number of errors. He states that Koehler died at Buchenwald. In reality he died at Weimar, that is, not in the concentration camp but in the hospital. Secondly, he states that he was autopsied in the autopsy room of the concentration camp. That is also wrong. He was autopsied in the local hospital of the city of Weimar. Thirdly, he states that during that autopsy alkaloid rests were found in his stomach, whereas the judge who was working on this case testified that during that autopsy no such results were registered.

Kogon is only repeating what he had heard. All of these things are wrong, as is proven by the testimony of the investigating judge. I might add that Professor Timm, who was carrying out the autopsy, is a very well known professor for legal medicine in Germany.

Q: Kogon further states, on Page 1185 of the English transcript and page 1216 of the German transcript, that Ding had said:

I am to test a poison on Russian prisoners of war. I have to make an immediate report on it. This is Mrugowsky's direct order.

Then in the English transcript on page 1185 and in the German transcript on page 1217 he says:

Dr. Ding did not send a written report about that to Berlin. He said that he would have to report to Mrugowsky verbally. Ding, according to the work report submitted by the prosecution, dated 23 September to 4 October, was in Berlin. The experiment took place on the 26th of October. According to the document available, Ding was not in Berlin after that period.

What do you know about that experiment and when and how did you get that report?

A: I know nothing of this experiment. I found out about that for the first time on the basis of Document No.265. I never received a verbal or a written report about that activity.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.

(A recess was taken.)