1947-04-01, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. WIDESLAV HORN (Resumed) - EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY JUDGE SEBRING:

Q: Now, Doctor, just before the morning recess, when the court directed questions to you concerning the activities of Dr. Hoven and Dr. Schidlausky, you gave the court your version of what you knew about their activities. Now, were there any other doctors at Buchenwald, during the time you stayed there, about whose activities you know? Either by direct knowledge, by observation or by the general prevailing reputation concerning their activities in that camp?

A: In the concentration camp of Buchenwald, in addition to the head SS physician, Dr. Hoven or Dr. Schidlausky, there were two or three subordinate SS physicians. Mostly, they were very young doctors who had not yet practiced, which meant that they only entered their service as a physician in the camp, and going through all the physicians I remember I cannot pick out any individual persons. Most of the physicians were unknown when they got there and left likewise. I cannot remember that the inmates raised any particular complaints against SS physicians. There were general complaints but no special ones.

Q: When did you first become an inmate in any of the concentration camps?

A: That was in the camp of Snoimo near Vienna. This is really the territory of Czechoslovakia that belonged in the Sudetenland.

Q: When?

A: In September, 1939.

Q: How long did you stay there as an inmate?

A: I stayed there for fourteen days.

Q: Then what camp did you go to?

A: Then I mostly went to Gestapo prisons or court prisons, where the medical service was carried out by SS physicians.

Q: What was the period of time that you stayed in that activity in those prisons?

A: At that time already there prevailed in Germany and in the occupied territories an enormous lack of physicians.

I went to the prison of Spielberg at Bruenn.

Q: When?

A: That was between December and January, 1939.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: Until the 15th of February.

Q: Then where did you go?

A: Then I went to the Gestapo Prison Kaunitz-Kolno. That is in Bruenn.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: Until I was transferred to the camp of Buchenwald. That is, the beginning of December, 1941.

Q: How long were you at Buchenwald?

A: I stayed in Buchenwald from the 9th of December, 1941, until the liberation, which was the 11th of April, 1945. I stayed another few weeks up to the 20th of May, 1945.

Q: Then you were there for a period of approximately more than three years. Is that correct? At Buchenwald?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: Can you estimate how many prisoners were at Buchenwald?

A: Generally?

Q: When you came there. Yes, generally?

A: I already said today —

Q: (Interrupting) I know you did. Say it again.

A: In December, 1941, I estimated the amount to be approximately six thousand inmates.

Q: Thank you. Now, state for the information of the Tribunal whether that number increased from time to time while you were there and about what the approximate monthly increase was, if you know. Or quarterly increase? Or semi-annual increase? Or yearly increase?

A: In the year of 1942 there was a normal increase, which according to my estimate — and I am now speaking of new additions into the camp, and I would like to say that the total increased by two thousand people. You see, I can't say exactly how many people died in the camp or how many were admitted, but we knew, at that time, that there were approximately a steady eight thousand there, from the kitchen.

Q: You think then that some time during the year 1942, without taking into account the transfers or the deaths, that there were approximately eight thousand inmates at Buchenwald?

A: Yes, approximately.

Q: How many would you estimate were there in 1943 under the same conditions?

A: The year 1943 was a turning point in concentration camps. At that time the camps were transferred to labor camps. That expressed itself in a manner that the Gestapo merely captured the people as one catches a horse and transferred them into the camp.

Q: And how many during the year 1943 do you think were there?

A: Under Doctor Hoven I think there were approximately fifteen thousand, but the number increased rapidly. Mass transports came to the camp from Auschwitz, etc., transport after transport came and went. Sometimes 5,000 people a day left the camp. There was no supervision to be exercised, people arrived and people went. The camp of Buchenwald — the center camp, housed at the most — and I am including the little camp these pig sties could house approximately forty thousand. The outer camp, I think, amounted to a much larger number of persons. When the American Authorities liberated the camp and wanted to find out the number of inmates they found out that there were eighty-one thousand dead and they wanted to know how many people went through the camp and the figure was mentioned or rather it was said that there were about a number of one hundred forty thousand men, including the branches of the camp.

Q: What was the — what did you observe as to the general physical condition of the prisoners at Buchenwald when you first came there in the latter part of 1941 and during the year 1942?

A: I remember that impression very well. I remember it in the year of 1941. I entered the camp and I saw a number of elderly gentlemen, and the Czechs, who were in a position to receive packages of two kilos. When I entered there the roll call was taking place and when I saw my comrades the first impression wasn't bad at all.

I saw blocks of the old political inmates, mostly artisans, who worked in the camp. My impression of them wasn't bad at all. Very soon I was relieved from attending roll call by Dr. Hoven. Then I started to see blocks where the inmates looked very badly. That especially applied to the Polish blocks. The blocks of Jehovah's Witnesses were in much better condition. They were mostly workers with the SS and therefore looked better. The general impression that I had wasn't the worst at all and I mention that because I must openly admit that I was surprised. Especially the old political inmates explained to me that the pace of the work and the type of the work when erecting the camp of Buchenwald, which originated in the year of 1937 or 1938, was so severe that anyone who could not stand that work physically had died.

Q: What was the general physical condition of the prisoners you saw there during the years 1943 and 1944 and until your liberation in April 1945, as compared to the general physical condition of the prisoners whom you observed when you first came to Buchenwald?

A: When the camps were changed into labor camps and the inmates were sent to work for Germany's war industry, it was permitted for the inmates to receive packages. These were packages up to the weight of 5 kilograms but it was quite possible to negotiate with the SS and achieve that even heavier packages arrived. It may have cost a little more money. For that reason all the inmates who received packages from home looked much better. Naturally, the situation of the Poles was terrible, the situation of the Russians, and also of the Germans who received no packages. That especially applied to Germans who were not active in the administration. They, of course, didn't look as well. Only in the years 1944 and 1945, when packages arrived from France, and in this connection I have to say that the French Red Cross did some enormous work; that also applies to Switzerland. Switzerland sent packages to Germany of a value of — or at least amounting to 2 million packages — I am not sure whether it was 2 million francs or 2 million packages. The packages, of course, had decreased in size. Then came the year 1944 and now I am speaking of 95 percent of the inmates. They looked terrible. They were painted as it was demonstrated by Dr. Pieck. They lived in terrible conditions, 5 or 7 people were sleeping on 2 beds. We received terrible infections, infections of the intestines. We went to Block 50, asking them to find out what the cause of this epidemic was. We mostly feared typhus. The situation in the little camp was beyond anyone's imagination. I want to describe the following to you: The American Commander in Thuringia ordered that 2,000 German men and women come to Buchenwald daily to look at it. The American soldiers looked at the camp too; they were good soldiers and they understood the situation. But we noticed that whenever German men and women went through it they preferred to throw themselves down on the ground in order not to have to look.

There were heaps of dead which we could not bury because we had no facilities to do so. Later, after the dead were buried, German men and women came again. They did not want to go into the Block. They cried and screamed. They said they did not want to go inside, they did not know what was happening there, they knew of nothing. If one looks at Pieck's painting one can only realize the extent of what the situation was. One can apply some measure if one considers the reaction of the German men and women when they looked at the camp. In January, February, March and April there were 5,000 people dead in the camp of Buchenwald.

Q: Can you state what the official caloric content of the diet of the prisoners was when you came there, not taking into account any Red Cross packages that may have come in or other types of packages, when yon first came to Buchenwald? I am speaking now of the prisoners who were not hospital inmates and when we have finished this point, then I want to pass on the hospital inmates.

A: The amount of calories was often considered and counted, mainly by the inmates. That already held true at the time of Dr. Hoven. You know that everything in Germany was done by order. If one went by the order one could count on 30 calories per Kilo, that is altogether 2,000 calories. That, however, was the order. Dr. Hoven sometimes inspected the kitchen with us and there we saw that the kitchen for inmates had a number of people eating there unofficially, SS and inmates who had no business there. An inmate in the hospital did not receive sufficient calories to enable him to live longer than 4 to 6 weeks. It made a great deal of difference who received the upper layer of any food contained in a pot where more fat was contained.

In order to give you some more specific answer one must assume that the amount of calories given was very small. Considering not the center camp of Buchenwald but a branch, let us say the construction camp Dora, where secret weapons were produced, these were subterranean works, or consider the notorious S-3 where subterranean work was also carried out—the inmates emerged from there after a few weeks. Now and again a nurse came back from there and he said there was no disinfection there. We asked him how come people disappeared and the only answer was the people did not get sufficient food, the medicine was not sufficient, and people were just disappearing. All of this, of course, resulted in diarrhea. Block 50 did not make any bacteriological diagnoses and I want to confirm Professor Fleck's statement—this diarrhea was the diarrhea which was seen after the first world war, which comes as a result of hanger. In other words, my answer is that the amount of calories was not sufficient.

Q: Now that was over the entire period of time while you were there, not taking into account the packages which may have come in to certain individuals from outside? I am speaking now merely of the official diet.

A: The official ration up until 1943 was such that there were no real symptoms of hanger. There was no hunger then, there was no hanger diarrhea. There were no special symptoms of hunger edema in the year 1943 which could be noticed on the inmates but certain symptoms were created by the wearing of impossible boots and by the fact that the people had to stand up for a long time. In other words the period of 1943 was such that one could not notice any particular symptoms of hanger with the exception of symptoms in the stomach and it started only in the year 1944.

Q: State for the benefit of the Tribunal the nature of the food received by those concentration camp inmates during the year 1944. Tell us in particular what items they would receive for an average meal and the items of food they would receive throughout the day.

A: In the morning we received a liquid which was called by some of the inmates substitute coffee and by another part of the inmates, soup. There was no vote taken whether it was soup or coffee. From the food depot we found out that this product allegedly was produced from flour, which in turn was gained from wood. One must say that even though it may not have had any caloric value that after a certain period of time one drank it without any symptoms occurring as a result. Everything was eaten and everything drunk but there was no calorie value. In addition to that product we had a piece of bread from a loaf of bread which had 1500 grams. The daily ration was, I think, and I am not speaking about the industrial supplements but those who were not working in industry, about 8 portions of a loaf of broad weighing 1500 grams. At noon the same thing was true. There was a soup made of some roots. I came from an agricultural country but I cannot say what kind of root that was. The Frenchmen who came from the colonies called it ritabagat. This was similar to a beet root but did not have as much nourishment value as the normal beet root. Then we sometimes received pieces of potatoes—so called industrial potatoes of a very bad type—a type which contained much poison, starting from February, so that in many cases diarrhea was prevalent among the inmate s after drinking that potato soup.

Now and again pieces of meat were floating in that soup but very thin threads of meat.

In the evening we got a little marmalade, very small quantities of marmalade and once a week we received cheese. That was normal, there was some exceptions in the case of holidays when inmates received so-called pea soup and on the occasion of big holidays they received one piece of salami sausage.

The inmates working in the industries in the so-called A.W. works, which was the war industry in the camp, or those working at the Gustloff works, nurses or other inmates, who worked in an administrative capacity, received a supplemental ration, a third or a fourth of a loaf of bread.

Now and again we were in a position to buy something from the inmates' canteen once a month. This was small leaves of bread which smelled like ammonia, but after eating it one had no special symptoms.

These were the customary rations. Certainly in the year of 1944, after an air attack, the camp administration sent packages to the inmates or allowed packages to get through to the inmates, but with no exception all these packages were stolen. The packages entered the camp and all inmates had to sign for them, that is also true in my case too. They had to sign that they received the packages, but the packages went to the SS barracks and they were sorted out there by the inmates. All the jam was put together, everything was sorted out according to its type and it was safe guarded there. Where it went from there, we don't know. Here is an indication as to the amount of calories we get, at that time we lost five, six or even seven kilos of weight. We had to do all the work, we had to do all of the administrative work, the locksmiths had to do their work, but they did not have sufficient nourishment to carry it out. Certainly after these four to six weeks, we again received packages and this I can quote as an example; namely the caloric value of these official packages was completely insufficient.

Q: During the year of 1944, what was your observation of the general living conditions of the inmates at Buchenwald; I do not mean now those who may have had favored conditions, but the general prisoner who had no particular professional or specialized task to perform?

A: What I have now described merely concerned the year of 1944 and the year of 1945. I think we had 20,000 Russians, members of a nation who could eat everything and who had more power of resistance than the middle or western Europeans.

There began, after what I have already described, certain avitaminosis; namely swelling of the legs, which was increased by wooden shoes. We could see there that people lost an enormous amount of weight, however, one could not see the first symptoms, namely, diarrhea. That only happened in the year 1944. Terrible housing conditions came about in addition to the difficulties of nourishment toward the end of the winter of 1944 to 1945 and a large number of inmates were only housed in tents, tents which were merely improvised in blocks. Five people were sleeping on two beds. The medical supplies there were not sufficient for that amount of people, nor were hygienic facilities sufficient.

We proceeded to take measures against lice in our camp and to save ourselves from a mass typhus infection. For that purpose namely in order to control the lice, we needed a few hundred [illegible] I think even a thousand inmates, who did nothing but get ahold of the inmates during meals and inspect them afterwards to see if they had any lice or not. This measure was taken only by the inmates, the SS and Dr. Schidlausky did not object to our using these inmates for this lice control work, but he did not help us either.

Q: What can you say to the sanitary conditions at the camp; what facilities, what toilet facilities, what stool facilities, what laboratory facilities were available to you? Do you understand the general import and scope of ray question?

A: Certainly. Up to the year of 1944 the laboratories were sufficient, washing facilities were adequate too, there was a bath which was quite adequate so that every innate was in a position to bathe once a week and some inmates could even bathe twice a week. There was a shower in the camp Buchenwald which was well equipped and there was an irrigation institution which only had one fault, namely, that the bones from the corpses from the crematories were put there so that in the year of 1944 this irrigation institution was stopped up because of the boxes of the corpses. But, up to the year of 1944 one can say that all sanitary institutions were adequate, including the delousing. After the year of 1944 it failed to an increasing extent.

In the year of 1945 one could detect, especially in the little camp where they were several thousand inmates, one could speak no longer of any sanitary institutions. They were not at all adequate. In addition to that, came the lack of water which started. Before the air attacks the camps had a large reserve to use. After the air attacks, whatever water facilities there were damaged and afterwards there resulted a terrific deficiency in the sanitary institutions of the camp Buchenwald

Q: You made some statement to the effect that this latter facility about which you talked did not function well after a certain period in 1944, because it became clogged up with corpses that went into the crematorium. Was it ashes from the corpses?

A: Bones of corpses.

Q: You mean after the bodies had been burned and the bone ash removed?

A: The crematorium toward the end failed. We had been told that the crematorium could not destroy the amount of corpses as a crematorium should. Therefore, not only ashes could be found but also parts of big bones which were not burned, since inmates mostly serviced the crematorium. The SS at that time did not participate. They did not know what to do with these bones, and they put them into the irrigation system and into the canal system. In the terrible year 1945 there was a large amount of dead going from where I sit to the partition, and I repeatedly went to Schidlausky and asked him to do something. The second chief of staff of the camp, Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] Bannewaldt, tried to do everything to keep his stores in order so far as supplies were concerned. He showed me how the rats which showed themselves went into his store through the canal system and there ate the goods. Dr. Schidlausky answered that there was no coal and I told him that there are other methods than burning of these people, but then nothing could be done because one could recognize the corpses when they were buried, and he insisted that no other methods be used, namely, burying the corpses. Only when the situation was such that there were too many corpses permission was given to bury them. At first they were put into the ditch and there they were found by the American authorities a few months or weeks later.

Q: What corpses were supposed to go into the crematorium, the corpses of all inmates who died from any cause at Buchenwald?

A: There was a directive that every inmate who died in the camp had to be burned.

Q: That efforts were made to keep records of each of the inmates who died there?

A: The card index system of all inmates was carried, on by the inmates themselves. There were offices of the hospital and offices of the camp administration, where all the inmates were registered by the inmates themselves. All inmates were registered there they were either admitted, released or who were transferred or who died. Naturally in the hospital one was never clear about the cause of death. Every patient who died in the hospital was given a case history which was compiled by a clerk who often had not even had seen the patient. He wrote down precisely what injections and what drugs that patient had received. Whether the diagnosis was put down as influenza or as accident was of no interest at all, but everything was done very meticulously, and the case history was written down very exactly. We certainly never had any evidence as to what causes lead to their death. We only knew that they had died.

Q: I believe you stated this once before, but will you please be good enough to state again what was Dr. Hoven's official position at the camp Buchenwald?

A: Dr. Hoven when I entered the camp was the deputy of the first physician of the camp.

Q: Who then was the first physician of the camp?

A: That was Dr. Hoven afterwards. Allegedly the first camp physician fell ill with typhus, was treated somewhere outside Buchenwald, and then Dr. Hoven took over his position.

Q: Then Dr. Hoven became the first camp physician, is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: During the period of time you were there, what doctors or other medical men were under Hoven's command?

A: Do you mean SS?

Q: Yes, I mean regular SS or Wehrmacht and other German official physicians or surgeons or researchists, not taking into account concentration camp inmates themselves?

A: Dr. Hoven was the camp physician.

Q: I understand he was the camp physician until the liberation. Thank you.

A: Not until the liberation — until he was arrested. Dr. Hoven was arrested in March 1943. Up to that time he was the first camp physician. Then there was another position there called "Standart physician". I cannot tell you to what extent the camp physician was subordinate to the Standart Physician. For sometime SS physicians of the SS divisions were there who had their own physicians. I don't know what the relationship was between one SS physician to another. There were two or three physicians in the entire camp, that is, two to three SS physicians, but no more than that.

Q: Then I understand that after Dr. Hoven's arrest he finally came back to Buchenwald in some position or other?

A: No, he didn't come in the capacity of a camp physician. He merely entered the camp as a visitor. That was shortly before its liberation. I think it was three or four weeks before it was liberated. He only entered the camp as a physician at that time. Schidlausky was the first camp physician, and there were two or three subaltern SS physicians in the camp with him.

Q: Then is it your testimony that after his arrest Dr. Hoven had no official position in Buchenwald so far as you knew?

A: After his arrest, that is, the beginning of September, 1943, Dr, Hoven was imprisoned in the prison of Weimar, and as far as I know he had no official mission any longer in the camp of Buchenwald.

Q: Let us divide the period of your stay at Buchenwald into two periods, the period prior to the time that Dr. Hoven left there, and the period subsequent to the time that he left there, and I understand he left there approximately September 1, 1943.

Prior to September 1st, 1943, whom did you understand was in charge, general charge of health, and sanitation at Buchenwald?

A: The health and medical service was directed by an office in Berlin and a certain staff Officer, a doctor, was put in charge, his name was Lolling or Loelling.

Q: Who was the doctor actually at the camp who was in charge of general health and sanitation? Was it Dr. Hoven?

A: Yes.

Q: In other words, as the chief physician at Buchenwald, I assume that he would be the responsible officer in charge generally of the health of Inc prisoners, the sanitary conditions under which they lived, the general conditions of the food and it's preparation, so far as the food was furnished to him, charged with the responsibility of keeping some accurate official check of those inmates who came to the hospital for treatment, charged with some general over-all responsibility of keeping some statistics concerning the death rate of inmates and the causes of death, is that not true?

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty o'clock.

(The Court adjourned for the noon recess)