1947-04-03, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 3 April 1947.)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has examined documents contained in Mrugowsky Book 2 —

DR. FLEMMING: May I make one explanation first? It has been brought to my attention that apparently on the question of the voluntary nature of the people in prisons I expressed myself incorrectly. It is, of course, possible that there is a certain degree of voluntariness on the part of people in prisons but in the case of persons who are so limited in their freedom of movement when in prison one must assume that in contrast to people who can move freely it cannot be assumed that they are volunteers if they place themselves at the disposal of such experiments. It is possible that people did volunteer in prison, as the article in LIFE shows about the 800 prisoners who volunteered for malaria experiments.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has examined Mrugowsky Document Book 2 and, as it occurs to the Tribunal that some of the other defendants might offer similar documents in evidence before the conclusion of the trial, that it would be advisable to postpone a definite ruling upon this matter until the last defendant has closed his case, at which time, if other documents have been offered, they can all be considered together. If no other documents are offered at that time, the Tribunal will again consider the offer by counsel for Defendant Mrugowsky of documents in his Book 2.

MR. HARDY: In view of the Tribunal's ruling, then, when documents of this nature are submitted, will it be necessary for me on each occasion to render a formal objection or, on documents of this nature, can we reserve our right to object until the end of the completion of each defendant's case?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that would be on such documents as this, publications, whether in newspapers, magazines, or books, which are offered in evidence and which correspond to these documents contained in Mrugowsky Document Book 2. Those documents will all be considered when the last defendant has rested his case and objections may be reserved until that time because the Tribunal will not consider, from this time on, the admission of evidence of this nature.

MR. HARDY: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: It is understood, of course, for the record, that this ruling preserves the right of Defendant Mrugowsky to offer this document book at some later time.

DR. FLEMMING: Then I should merely like to ask to reserve the right, Mr. President, for submitting a number of affidavits and other documents later, which have not yet been translated.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean, of course, documents of similar nature to those contained in your Document Book 2?

DR. FLEMMING: No, documents of a different nature,—affidavits and similar evidence, such as in Document Book 1.

THE PRESIDENT: And you say that those documents are not now ready to be presented to the Tribunal, is that correct?

DR. FLEMMING: Yes, that is right.

THE PRESIDENT: It has not been the policy of the Tribunal to close the door to evidence which may be competent evidence which may be offered, material evidence, by other defendants as their cases are heard, before the last defendant has rested his case. The Tribunal understands that the defendants are under some handicap in preparing their evidence so the matter will be acted upon and any defendant will be heard before the defendants have closed their case and other evidence may be offered and will not be rejected upon the ground that it is offered too late— I mean upon the ground alone that the evidence is offered too late.

DR. FLEMMING: Then, at the moment, I have nothing more to submit in the Mrugowsky case.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand then, counsel, that all the documents contained in Document Book 1 and Document Book 1-A which you desire to offer at any time, have now been offered?

DR. FLEMMNG: Yes, they have all been offered.

DR. SEIDL (For the defendant Herta Oberheuser): Before I ask the Tribunal to call the defendant Dr. Oberheuser to the witness stand, I should like to offer the affidavit of a witness whose examination has been approved by the Tribunal. In view of the fact that this witness, Margaretha Mydla, who is in Berlin, has not yet arrived, I shall first offer an affidavit. It is possible that after the presentation of evidence in the case of the defendant Oberheuser I shall be able to dispense with examining this witness before the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Has the document book been prepared for the defendant Oberheuser?

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the documents for the defendant Oberheuser are in the same document book as for the defendant Dr. Karl Gebhardt, which has already been offered. Other documents are in Document Book 2, which will be offered later. In view of the fact that the witness has not yet arrived, I should like to read merely this one affidavit out of order. The affidavit reads as follows —

THE PRESIDENT: Are copies of this affidavit available for the Tribunal?

DR. SEIDL: I beg your pardon, Mr. President, I assumed that copies had already been given to the Tribunal, but I still have a few translations.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, as I understand it, apparently this is the same document book which has been put in for Gebhardt, Fischer, and Oberheuser, and this is an additional affidavit to that document book.

DR. SEIDL: Yes, that is correct.

THE PRESIDENT: That is my understanding.

DR. SEIDL: The affidavit reads as follows —

THE PRESIDENT: What number do you assign to this exhibit?

DR. SEIDL: I shall give it the number of Oberheuser No. 1. I quote:

I, Frau Margaretha Mydla, resident at Berlin, 0 112, Herterstrasse 3/11, have had my attention called to fact that I make myself liable to punishment if I give a false affidavit. I declare on oath that my statement is true and correct and that it was made in order to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. 1 at the Palace of Justice, Nuernberg, Germany.

On 13 January 1943 I was for political reasons sent to the women's concentration camp Ravensbruck. The reason for my detention in this camp was the fact that I had uttered insulting remarks about the wife of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.

Already ten days after my arrival in the camp, viz. on January 24, 1943, I fell seriously ill. I was taken to the sick bay of the camp where the camp physician, Dr. Rosenthal, was to treat me. Dr. Rosenthal, however, did not concern himself with me and I owe it merely to the help of other prisoners that Dr. Rosenthal did not, on account of my exceedingly poor general state of health and my serious illness, kill me or lighten my death after six days by an injection. He evidently doubted my recovery.

After three weeks in the sick bay of the camp I was taken back to my block in a very poor state indeed.

After eight days I was again admitted to the sick bay where Frl. Dr. Oberheuser treated me. She was the first to ascertain that I suffered from abdominal typhus. I further had erysipelas of the leg and inguinal rupture and furthermore suffered from an intense itch. Frl. Dr. Oberheuser gave me all conceivable care and also saw to it that I received a suitable diet, although I was only a skeleton and weighed 84 pounds instead of 126 when I was put under her care in the sick bay. Frl. Dr. Oberheuser did not only see to it that I received good food but by giving me suitable medicaments she did everything that was in her power and that could help me, in strong contrast to Dr. Rosenthal, who did not concern himself with me at all.

Frl. Dr. Oberheuser has used her influence for me and even reprimanded the nurse who refused to give me my medicine, and then ordered her to give me the prescribed medicaments and also the corresponding anodynes.

But Frl. Dr. Oberheuser did not only help me by doing everything within her power. I can testify from my own observation and from the reports of other fellow prisoners that she also tried to help other patients who were really ill, and that she treated the sick in a decent and humane manner. One must, however, not overlook the fact here that the prisoners contained many anti-social elements, prostitutes, criminals with repeated previous convictions, and other persons who wrongly laid claim to the amenities of the sick bay at the cost of the really sick.

To sum up, I wish to state that Frl. Dr. Oberheuser, in spite of difficult conditions and though she herself was obviously bound by the instructions of the camp physician, has treated me well during the many months of my illness and that she did everything to restore my health. In the same manner she tried to help the other patients of the sick bay whenever she could and I never saw that she mistreated a woman patient.

I make this statement voluntarily and I want to emphasize that the attention of Frl. Dr. Oberheuser's defense counsel was drawn to me by a letter which I wrote him of my own accord on 18 January 1947. Berlin, 20 February 1947.

/s/ Margaretha Mydla nee Kuhn.

Then there follows the certificate of the notary. This document, as I have already said, will be given the Exhibit Oberheuser No. 1.

Mr. President, I ask the Tribunal to call the defendant Dr. Herta Oberheuser to the stand.

THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Herta Oberheuser will take the stand.

HERTA OBERHEUSER took the stand and testified as follows:

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Q: What is your name?

A: Herta Oberheuser.

Q: Will you repeat this oath after me:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY DR. SEIDL:

Q: When and where were you born?

A: I was born 15 May 1911 in Cologne on the Rhine.

Q: The prosecution has already submitted your affidavit in which you described your life briefly. This is Prosecution Document No. 27. I ask you now to describe and to supplement your affidavit concerning your life and also your scientific training.

A: I come from a middle class conservative Christian family. My father is an engineer. I spent my youth in Duesseldorf and attended the Luisenschule, the city school in Duesseldorf, from 1918 to 1931. I graduated from this school. Then after the inflation there were financial difficulties for my parents and I was forced to finance my studies in part myself. I attempted to do so by giving lessons and by helping a doctor in his practice. My pre-clinical semesters I studied at Bonn and from the fourth semester I was at the physiological institute under Professor Ebbeke. During my clinical semesters I was in Duesseldorf and I took the state examination there.

In my affidavit I said that I was a member of the BDM, the Hitler Youth Girls Organization. This came about in the following way. As a senior medical student we were called upon to place ourselves at the disposal of the BDM; that is, we were ordered because there were so few female doctors in Duesseldorf. I found young girls there who had been forced into this organization; they had too much sports to do and to much service. The parents had already objected to this. I tried to do something to alleviate these conditions and we examined the girls medically. We were present at sport meetings in order to avoid leaving the young girls to their young leaders so that they would not over-exert themselves. This was a purely medical activity and this was part of the reason why I later became a party member.

Q: Well, after you finished your studies and after you finished your examinations, where did you practice as a doctor and were you independent in that position?

A: I was never independent during my activity. First I went back to the Physiological Institute in Bonn under Professor Ebbeke. I remained there a rather short time since I had to continue my clinical training. Then I went to the medical clinic in Duesseldorf under Professor Ebens. I decided to specialize in skin diseases and study at the skin or dermatological clinic. I went to the dermatological clinic at Duesseldorf and completed my specialized training there.

As I said, I never worked independently. I had the position of a voluntary assistant there. Then there were some financial difficulties for me and since my father was seriously ill for a long time I was forced to earn my living myself. There was no possibility for me at the clinic to receive a position under the budget and so I looked for another position. I was offered a position that seemed favorable to me and I went to Ravensbruck to the women's camp. That was in December of 1940. Because being a woman, the difficulties there were increasingly great for me and I tried to change my place of work. In June of 1943 I finally succeeded in that and then I came to the sanatorium of the Red Cross under Professor Gebhardt and worked there until the end of the war.

Q: So you were a specialist in skin diseases, and venereal diseases?

A: Yes.

Q: How was it that in 1940 you went to the concentration camp Ravensbruck? How was your attention drawn to this?

A: In a medical journal I saw an announcement that a specialist for skin and venereal diseases was wanted in a women's training camp, the financial possibilities were rather favorable, the camp was near Berlin, and I decided to work there.

Q: The advertisement in the medical periodical referred to a women's training camp. Were you in Ravensbruck as an independent doctor, and what were your tasks there.

A: I had not known of the camp before. I learned of it only when I read the announcement in the paper. At that time, at the end of 1940, there were about three thousand women and the impression it made on me was quite orderly. I was never independent there. I was under the instructions of the post physician. However, he left me freedom to work as I like in my own specialty. But suddenly I found myself on a military staff. I was not able to adjust to this at first. It took weeks until I had become used to it. The administrative and disciplinary matters all went through military channels. I was outside of the military organization; I was not wanted here; and I withdrew to my own specialized field. I had no help from the German nurses. I worked only with the prisoner nurses who helped me in my enormous work. These prisoner nurses were composed of doctors, nurses, and students. There were Poles, Czechs, Germans, and, finally, Russians. These workers were assigned by orders, who had been assigned to work in the hospital. They took charge of the ambulatory patients, and I had the impression that they liked working with me. They saw the enormous danger for their political prisoners since there was an enormous amount of venereal diseases. In the big Dusseldorf clinic I never had so many fresh cases as in this camp. Not only venereal diseases, but also skin diseases were widespread.

I showed the nurses the diagnosis and discussed therapy with them. My relationship with them was an official one, but I always maintained a clinical tone with them. I believe it is easiest to understand my work if I briefly describe a working day. The patients were treated, medicines were given, the dressings were applied, and patients where the diagnosis had not been cleared up I gave appointments for the afternoon. At certain hours in the morning there was treatment of syphilis cases. This lasted until the late hours of the morning. The rest of the morning I spent visiting the wards. In the afternoon service began at two-thirty but usually I had to start earlier since the number of patients to be treated and to be examined was too large. First I could not handle more than eighty in one afternoon. Then I looked at the special cases, de-licing operations were carried out, and I also looked at the new preparations in order to avoid contagion and to be able to isolate the people if necessary. After the end of the working day I examined the eighty preparations microscopically. Here I gained insight for the first time into how great the number of skin and venereal cases is in such a camp. I was in contact with the head of my Dusseldorf clinic in order to keep myself informed on this. He also advised me so that I should introduce the most effective therapeutic methods here, and he advised me in cases which occurred during the war especially and which we had not known before.

Q: If I understand you correctly, your activity, in other words, consisted of the treatment of people with skin diseases and venereal diseases?

A: Yes; and then I treated everyone who asked me for it.

Q: How, in 1940, when you joined the camp, was the general conditions there, and, above all, the conditions as regards hygiene?

A: At the beginning the camp had about three thousand women, and the number gradually increased in the course of time. In the beginning the camp had about three thousand women, and the number gradually increased in the course of time. In the beginning it was 75%, I might say, criminals.

These were prostitutes and persons who had been convicted previously. There were very few political prisoners at that time and almost no Jews. In the course of time the numbers gradually increased; and more political prisoners, and more foreigners, came to the camp and, of course, the number of skin and venereal disease cases also increased gradually so that the work became greater and greater, and here we had to avoid contagion. The arrangements of the hospital were those of a specialized practice. Medicines, ointments, and dressings were available in adequate quantities.

Q: Now, how did things proceed in subsequent years?

A: As I have already described, the number of inmates increased gradually and the number of patients also increased. As I have already said, they were not only political prisoners but also criminals and very many of them. I was forced to keep a certain distance. This was ordered and it was also necessary. I tried to take a middle path here. I gave my assistance to everyone who asked me for it; and I treated everyone equally; and I believe that the patients were quite satisfied with the care I gave them.

I was aided by the prisoner nurses. I was on good terms with them. I had no help from the German nurses. They had no interest in my specialty. Perhaps there was too much work in my department. They preferred to help my colleagues; and they worked in the laboratory, in the pharmacy, or in the operating room. I had to rely on myself for all my great amount of work. My colleagues lived and acted according to other principles, which were foreign to me, which I did not know from the clinic, and which I rejected.

I happened to be told once before I went on leave when I was taking care of my patients, "I suppose you imagine that the hospital can't get along without you." I had to listen to this as a doctor fulfilling my duty, when the patients meant everything to me. The nurses and doctors were an SS clique who were hostile to me. I was not wanted; and I did not feel at home among them.

It was different when Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer came to the camp. Here again I was working with the head of a clinic and a clinical assistant; and they recognized me as a ward doctor. This was the clinical circle to which I was accustomed; and I looked to them for help as a woman and as a doctor, and not to the people whose feelings and actions did not correspond. In the presence of Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer the camp doctors tried to keep busy; but this came to an end again as soon as the men from Hohenlichen had left.

Q: Did your activity in the camp of Ravensbruck become congenial to you?

A: I was supposed to help the women who were in custody here; and I was to protect the political prisoners from contagion. For the sake of the patients I tried to stay in the camp and not to escape for selfish reasons. I was able to help individual patients. I could not change the camp as a whole. I could not help anyone to be released; and I had no disciplinary authority. So I tried to hold out. But conditions became constantly worse; and it was no longer possible to go on.

Medicine began to become scarce so that medical care became more difficult. Then there were difficulties in getting out for I was obligated to serve. I did not know how to get out. The only chance was when Prof. Gebhardt came; and I asked him for help.

Q: At the beginning of your examination you described that in 1940 you went to Ravensbruck on the basis of an advertisement in a scientific periodical. Then, in other words, you went voluntarily?

A: Yes.

Q: But you also said when you answered my last question that you were obligated to serve?

A: Yes.

Q: I conclude from that that later on you could not leave the camp without having special permission first?

A: After a short time, perhaps three months, I had been obligated to serve; and I was not able to get out any longer.

Q: In 1943 when you actually left the camp, you did that because of Prof. Gebhardt, who helped you with the authorities concerned?

A: Yes.

Q: Both Dr. Gebhardt and Prof. Fischer talked about the sick bay before, the sick bay which was in the Ravensbruck Camp. Can you confirm what they said?

A: Yes. The hospital consisted of three barracks. One was the clinic and two were wards. The hospital was constantly being enlarged as the number of patients increased. The barracks which was used as a clinic for out patients had a dressing room, a gynecological examination room, and X-ray room, a laboratory, a pharmacy, and so forth.

The wards had single beds and small and large rooms. The beds were made up with sheets. The patients were given underwear. The barracks had central heating, running hot and cold water, baths; and we also had a small diet kitchen. There were prisoner nurses taking care of the patients, Poles, Czechs, and so forth, as I said before.

Q: I now come to the sulfonamide experiments which are part of the prosecution's indictment. These experiments began in the summer of 1942; and I am now asking you how was it that you yourself came into contact with those experiments, and what did you think at the time?

A: A short time before the experiments began, I was told by the post physician — that was at that time Dr. Schilausky — that I was to evacuate a few of my rooms. He did not give me the reason at that time. Shortly before the experiments began, Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer came with the post physician and some other gentlemen, but I cannot remember who they wore anymore. They inspected the rooms. Prof. Gebhardt told me that experiments were to be carried out on women who had been condemned to death. I was astonished; but he said that these experiments had been ordered by a very high authority; that the State had ordered it; and that everything was legal; and that the persons concerned who had been condemned to death would be given a chance to be pardoned. He also stated that the experiments would not be dangerous.

After I had thought it over and considered that they were to be conducted by Prof. Gebhardt — whom I had not known personally before, it is true, but whose reputation I knew because of his big clinic — I said to myself, "If Prof. Gebhardt carries it out, it will probably be right." And, besides, there was a chance for the women of being pardoned; and, finally, the experiments would not be dangerous.

Q: Were you put into contact with these experiments by an outward factor; in other words, that is to say, by the fact that the patients were housed in rooms near the operation theatre and that these rooms were a part of your station?

A: Yes. There was no connection with the other stations at the time; otherwise I would probably have learned nothing about it.

Q: Were you present at any of the conferences which were held before the experiments began among doctors who took part in the experiments, or were you present at any of the conferences connected with the experiments?

A: No. I had to take care of my duties as the doctor in charge of the ward and nothing else.

Q: So you did not hear what the object of these conferences were which Dr. Gebhardt described here in this court and which he held with Himmler, Dr. Grawitz, and other people?

A: No.

Q: Did you take part in selecting experimental subjects?

A: No.

Q: But you knew that the experimental subjects were Polish women sentenced to death and who were to be pardoned afterwards?

A: Yes. I had no knowledge of the legal situation; but I knew that the women came from a block which was especially guarded and that these women were supposed to be condemned to death because of espionage or something like that. Also, we were not allowed to go out of the camp to work but had to remain in the camp. I also knew that they were to be pardoned if they survived the experiments. I observed one case where a patient in a sulfonamide series was actually pardoned. Whether the others were pardoned I do not know.

Q: In this one case which you are thinking of, would you like to say that this experimental person was released?

A: She was pardoned and at the same time as her Germanization released.

Q: But you were not told what form the pardon should take in general and you thought that they would not be executed?

A: Yes.

Q: When the experiments started, did Prof. Gebhardt or another doctor tell you what were the problems of these experiments and how the experiments should be carried out in detail?

A: No.

Q: Did you yourself have any scientific interest or any other interest in the carrying out of experiments which came up?

A: It was not in my field of interest.

Q: I once again come back to your position in the camp. You were not independent, you told us before?

A: No.

Q: Quite obviously you were under the Post doctor, and there was perhaps a second camp doctor, is that correct?

A: Yes, I was under the Post physician, but he left me a great deal of freedom in my own field.

Q: Now what was your activity on the sulfonamide experiments?

A: Actually I was only at work as the station doctor. I had to see that the patients would be given their medicine regularly, and that they were nursed. I was present when the dressings were changed, and in general I conducted myself according to what Professor Gebhardt had told me: "Nurse according to our directions and do not worry about anything else," and I tried to do so.

Q: How were the operations prepared which became necessary for the experiments?

A: As I already said, as my duty as ward physician, I received a list of the patients from the camp administration, and I examined them, as is customary before many operation in which an anesthetic is necessary, I looked at the skin, and examined the heart and lungs. I also saw to it that the patients were bathed; that they were shaved before the operation; that the temperature was checked, and that they were given morphine before the operation.

Q: Did any experimental persons complain to you or resist you?

A: No, I had the feeling that they were satisfied with my treatment. I was working under a clinic chief, and all the drugs, and so forth, necessary was brought from Hohenlychen. One could really work in the clinic here.

Q: Did you yourself carry out operations in connection with experiments?

A: No, I was a Dermatologist.

Q: You never carried out any operations yourself?

A: No.

Q: What were your tasks after the operations?

A: May I ask you to repeat your question.

Q: What was your task after the operation, and what did you do during the operation?

A: I had no special task here. Sometimes I administered the anesthetic, and in general when a patient was operated upon I saw to it that the next patient was given anesthesia. This always had to be done very quickly, since the operation was a very short one. Then I helped to apply a dressing, or a plastic cast, and sometimes I put on a lamp. The method of the operation was pointed out to me so that if necessary I would be able to loosen the dressing, and not to get into the area of the wound. Of course, the physician said I was merely an assistant.

Q: What were your activities after the operation?

A: I had to see to it that the medicine was administered at the proper time, and I had to act carefully according to instructions of Professor Gebhardt and Doctor Fischer. I also checked the dressings for pressure and congestion. I supervised the nursing, I saw to it that the legs were in a proper position. I also watched over the patient clinically and I saw to it that the blood tests and urine tests were taken.

I also made charts, and I was present when the dressings were changed. I had the feeling that the patients liked it if I was present when the dressing was changed.

Q: Did you work independently on those occasions, or were you here again dependent on Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer's orders?

A: I never worked independently. I always adhered strictly to instructions of Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer.

Q: How were the women treated who in connection with the experiments were housed in the sick bay of the camp?

A: They were in small rooms. They had single beds with sheets, and they were given clothing. They were given better food, and as I said at the beginning, they were cared for by prisoner nurses, mostly Poles and Czechs; and there was a night guard. The treatment was a clinical one. They lacked nothing. It they needed vitamins, the vitamins were brought from Hohenlychen. Whatever they needed was brought.

Q: The witness Wladzka said that women operated on were treated only on the first days after the operation, and that afterwards they were neglected. What would you like to say about that?

A: They were under a constant medical control. Regular reports were sent to Hohenlychen. When there were any minor changes in the case, a report was sent to Hohenlychen, and Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer came. I remember that it even very frequently happened on Sunday. I for my part saw to it that the drugs and medicines were administered at the proper time. Also there was a regular change of dressings, and I also had nursed; medicines which had to be given intravenously, I administered myself and did not leave this for a nurse.

The general care was under a prisoner nurses, primarily Polish prisoners.

Q: What do you know of the clinical progress in the various groups of experiments, and what can you say about the deaths?

A: I can not judge the results in the individual cases. I know only from cases from August until October there were no special developments. Progress was like in the case of an abscess. In November the situation changed a little. I was rather frightened. Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer immediately stopped all the experiments, and took a great interest in the sick patients. They were operated on. They were given the necessary drugs. They were immobilized in plaster casts. They were given blood transfusions. They were given gangrenous serum. Everything possible was done. Unfortunately, there were three deaths, although these people had been given exactly the same treatment, and everything possible had been done for them. Unfortunately they died. I was called when they died. This was not a quick death. Directly following the operation were convulsions. In my work at the same time I had a number of other seriously ill patients, and it is possible that some of them died.

Q: The witness Dsido, who has been here before this court, answered the questions of the Prosecution by saying that you had been quite a good doctor. I would like now to ask you, did you treat the witness Dsido better than any other person?

A: No. I treated them all in the same way, and I gave help first to the person who needed it most urgently.

Q: You saw the affidavit of the witness Margarete Mydla, which I read before. Are the statements by that witness correct, and did you perhaps gave particularly good treatment to that patient, preferring her to others?

A: I can not remember this person. Of course, I would recognize her if I saw her.

Q: But you gave no different treatment to her?

A: No, I treated all patients in the same way.

Q: One witness said that you hit her in the face when she woke up from her anesthesia, is that true? I would like to add here that Professor Gebhardt expressed his opinion on the general question here: that it is quite a frequent thing for a patient to wake up, and have a wrong impression, or form a wrong impression?

Q: I certainly did not mistreat any one, and certainly not any one under an anesthesia. But I have already said that I took great pain on behalf of a patient, and that it is possible that where a person had been operated upon, and was coming to again, that I pushed her lower jaw and perhaps shook her for her to breathe. It is a well known fact that a patient remembers that person and misinterprets what is being done to them.

Q: Did Professor Gebhardt visit quite frequently in connection with the sulfonamide experiments; was he present when the dressing was changed, and the operations were carried out?

A: Yes.

Q: And what was your impression regarding his attitude towards the experimental subjects?

A: I frequently saw Professor Gebhardt when dressings were changed. He was very considerate, and quite instirred by the medical practice. He did not permit a patient to express pain, an anesthetic was immediately administered The face was covered. The wounds were carefully taken care of, and he was very careful about sterility.

The patients were pushed to the dressing room, that was the clinic style to which I was used to in Duesseldorf.

Q: The operations themselves were usually carried out by Dr. Fischer, were they not?

A: Yes.

Q: How did he treat the patient? Do you know of any complaint on the part of the experimental subject so far as the patient was concerned?

A: I knew of no complaints on the part of the experimental human persons and he was considerate towards the patients, and I had the impressions that it was very difficult for him for reasons of humanity to carry out these experiments. I never heard any complaint from the patient. He was always friendly, although he did not talk to the patient very much. Professor Gebhardt as well as Dr. Fischer afterwards were attentive on the patient. They were not merely operated upon, but they were given proper attention until the healing was complete. If there was any danger, Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer came regularly. When we had these three deaths, and when some other patients were seriously ill they came themselves. Then perhaps in December there were three patients who were out of any danger, and I was given instructions of what further treatment they were to be given. This was a chronic separation. I went on leave, and I turned these three patients over to the post physician. In the Spring of 1943 these patients were still under ambulant treatment. I continued to treat them, but there was no necessity to ask for help from Hohenlychen, although I could have done so at any time. There was no general illness and no temperature.

In April 1943 I examined the patients once more and there was just a very small amount of supervision, and the patients were not suffering great pain any more. I informed Professor Gebhardt of this. There was no question of any further treatment, baths, or massage since this was infectious separation and the only treatment that could be given was ointment and dressing.

Q: Did you yourself have anything to do with the scientific evaluation of these experiments?

A: No.

Q: Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer said that on 24 May 1943 at the third meeting of the consulting specialists doctors reported on these experiments; that is to say, to the Military Doctors Academy in Berlin. Were you present at that time? Did you hear the reports and lectures?

A: No.

Q: In the course of this trial Dr. Stumpfegger was mentioned frequently. Did you yourself know Dr. Stumpfegger?

A: From about October 1942 until the Spring of 1943 he was in Ravensbruck repeatedly.

Q: Did you yourself have anything to do with Dr. Stumpfegger's experiments?

A: The experiments were quite different from the sulfonamide experiments. Dr. Stumpfegger came alone. He was not with Professor Gebhardt or Dr. Fischer. I, as a ward doctor, had virtually nothing to do with these experiments. Dr. Stumpfegger generally made the preparations himself; that is, he examined the patients before the operation, or it may have been that I had examined some of them in the Summer for the sulfonamide experiments, but they were not operated upon. I cannot remember exactly. I did not assist him at the operation. In the ward I did not have much to do with these people since they were in plaster casts and were able to get up very soon. My duty was merely to see to it in the first few days whether there was pressure or congestion, and I also had to administer morphine in the first few days.

There was no temperature and the patients hardly needed any help. They were able to return to the block very soon. The X-ray checks and the removal of the plaster casts Dr. Stumpfegger took over himself. I know nothing about the operation in detail. Dr. Fischer and Professor Gebhardt I never saw here. Dr. Stumpfegger worked alone.

Q: As far as the experimental subjects were concerned which Dr. Stumpfegger used, were they Polish women who had been sentenced to death?

A: Yes.

Q: And it would appear that they were also pardoned?

A: Yes, at least as far as I was present.

Q: The witness Madzka said that you, as doctor in the camp, had the possibility of saving those six women who, it is alleged, were shot. Did you really have that possibility, provided, of course, that you had know about all this?

A: I had nothing to do with the regular X-ray control. Dr. Stumpfegger did that and I did not learn about the incident and I had no disciplinary authority.

Q: You never heard anything about this whole affair?

A: I learned of it only here.

Q: And, after the trial here, you thought all the persons who survived the experiments were really pardoned?

A: Yes.

Q: In various affidavits it is claimed that in the summer, August 1943, in the so-called shelter of the camp, operations had been carried out. Do you know anything of such operations in the so-called "Bunker"?

A: In June 1943 I left the camp. I learned nothing more about it. I learned of it only here in the courtroom.

Q: In the camp of Ravensbruck were there any sterilization experiments carried out, or did you ever hear anything of such experiments?

A: I know nothing about any.

Q: Now, you described to the court your activity as a doctor in Ravensbruck.

You described this activity; that you had to carry it out under difficult circumstances, but previously you said yourself once in an affidavit — that is, that in a few cases you gave injections in order to shorten the suffering of certain patients and in order to make death easier to them. Do you recall that?

A: Yes.

Q: I will now ask you to describe to the court under what circumstances you administered this easing of death, easing of dying.

A: This matter, which was formulated so horribly in my affidavit, I discussed when I was interrogated in the British camp at Paderborn, and I spoke of it voluntarily myself. After I was questioned about the sulfonamide experiments, I was asked to speak about general conditions in the camp and particularly about the hygienic conditions in the hospital. I tried to represent things as they were, as I experienced them. I had to point out many things which seemed to me bad and inadequate. I expressed my criticism and opposition and I pointed out the special difficulties which confronted me, because in contrast to all the SS personnel I was quite isolated, and in the beginning I tried in cases of emergency to help the patients with the thought of the suffering women who were prisoners and sick. I also said that at that time — it would be in 1941 and the beginning of 1942 — I still believed that for the sake of these patients I could not leave the camp for selfish reasons but that I would fulfill my duty in a better manner if I stayed with these patients in the camp. The interrogating officer then asked me about sterilization measures and the deportation of prisoners. I was not able to give him any information on those subjects. Then he spoke about the care which was given them and the medical measures in the camp hospital. I described to him all the difficulties as far as I was able to observe them, and I told about my great work, the great amount of work in treating venereal diseases which endangered not only the prostitutes themselves but also the best elements, the political prisoners, and I told them about my efforts against the insect pests and the resulting skin diseases, and I also talked about my work in the wards.

I told them about the size of the ward and my many worries in connection with the work here since it was impossible to send seriously ill patients to a hospital, so that in the two years there I was at first able to treat the patients there and later only to nurse them; the patients in the final stages of one of the worst diseases against which medicine is still powerless today — I mentioned the common form of syphilis and cancer in women.

These diseases I considered so terrible because I had no opportunity to give any real assistance to the patients there and because the patients were so completely helpless in their suffering. This will always remain one of my worst memories. These cases were much more frequent there than in any other hospital and I was alone against all this suffering without being able to turn to a chief physician with confidence and I could not go to anyone for advice.

For the final stages of syphilis there was no medical care, the patients who were generally suffering from a complication with their nerves saw here an atonement for their former lives. They asked me repeatedly to help them and to release them from their suffering. The women suffering from abdominal cancer in the final stages were in a coma suffering. I asked frequently whether they could not be sent to a larger hospital for the only possible therapy, radium treatment, but I was told that this was impossible. Therefore, I had to leave them with the prisoner nurses together with the rest of the patients.

A cancer led to malodorous secretions, which made the suffering of the patients even worse. I was much impressed with the pain and this was increased by an abhorrence of the disease itself. Many of the patients in their physical and mental distress asked me and pleaded with me to give them an injection to release them from their suffering.

At the beginning of my work at Ravensbruck, in 1941 and the beginning of 1942, when I was a young doctor saw clearly for the first time now difficult the medical profession is and which places a person before such difficult decisions, I felt so alone because I had no old experienced medical person here to ask for advise and I had at the clinic in Dusseldorf. I have a bad memory of figures, so I do not remember the number of patients who went through my ward, but I do remember that there were many of them there, for sure more then 100, but there were only a few of them who were suffering unimaginable things and who pleaded with me for Euthanasia.

As I have already said, this was generally patients in the final stages of syphilis or an extended cancer. The patients lay there without any possibility of aid and waited for their painful death; They were a picture of heart breaking misery. I can still hear their pleas for help. In my distress, I remembered what was done in a big clinic in such cases, I remembered that in such cases, the wish of the hopeless sick person was complied with. I decided on my own responsibility, as a doctor, to act in the same way and then I asked my medical superior, the post physician and when I had his approval, I went back to the sick room, I stopped all the drugs and then increased the drugs alleviating pain. In a few cases, perhaps four or five, I sat down by the beds of patients who had asked for my help and in the presence of the prisoner nurse I — I gave them an intravenous injection so that they would go go to sleep. I used morphine and a mixture I received from the post physician. In these four or five cases the patients were suffering from late stages of syphilis or the last stages of abdominal cancer. These women had described their suffering and their pain to me exactly and they were Germans, who had expressly asked me to do this for them. In this hopeless situation, in view of the hopeless suffering, I did that and I had to act as I did.

A: Here in this situation which is so difficult for me under oath, I can repeat about these few patients in 1941 and 1942 that this was merely a case of euthanasia which was necessary from a medical point of view; and the patients had asked me for it. They had been in my ward for a long time. They had asked me repeatedly to relieve them from their suffering. They were women to whom I could talk well in German; and I am certain that they were German citizens. I administered euthanasia after consulting my medical superior, the post physician and according to my own medical judgment; and I did so in the presence of the prisoner nurse at the time I thought it necessary to act in this way.

When in the course of time I became more and more opposed to the camp personnel at the end of 1942 and 1943, I no longer had performed euthanasia. Since the number of patients had increased because the number of inmates of the camp had increased, I was not able to maintain the personal relationship with the individual patients which I consider a prerequisite for any action of this kind. At the same time my distrust of the camp set-up grew. I was not able to leave the camp since I had to serve here. I tried to treat the skin and venereal diseases and, in addition, to help in the therapy of the internal clinic.

So it came about that I gave aid in only a few cases; but later when I did not know the patients well personally and no longer had confidence in the camp, I no longer did so.

Q: My attention has been drawn to a wrong translation. If I understand you correctly, you wish to say at the beginning that prostitutes and other anti-social elements suffered from syphilis?

A: Yes.

Q: But not the political prisoners as such?

A: No. They were merely endangered by the danger of contagion; and it was my duty to prevent contagion.

Q: Witness, concerning this Count 1 of the indictment with which you are charged, I must ask you now which of the other defendants did you know at the beginning of sulfonamide experiments in the summer of 1942?

A: I knew none of them.

Q: You did not know Prof. Gebhardt or Dr. Fischer? You met Prof. Fischer and Prof. Gebhardt when they came to Ravensbruck for these experiments?

A: Yes. I merely know Prof. Gebhart by reputation. I met him personally only when he came to inspect the rooms.

Q: Now, my final question. In 1943 you became assistant doctor to Prof. Gebhardt in Hohenlychen. How did that come about and what were your tasks in the Hohenlychen institution?

A: The difficulties which I had in the concentration camp I have already described; and I was trying to change my place of work. Then I also said I asked Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer to help me; and I confided in Dr. Fischer and asked him to talk to Prof. Gebhardt about it. When he visited the camp, Prof. Gebhardt talked to me and considered that this was not the right place for me as a woman. And so it came about that with the aid of Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer I left Ravensbruck and went to Hohenlychen.

I worked there as an assistant doctor in the women's and children's ward. I was very glad to take over the children's ward because in Dusseldorf at the dermatology clinic I had worked in the children's ward. In addition to my activity in the clinic, I was also to care for the children of families of the personnel of Hohenlychen. Also, the female employees often asked me for advice. Then I helped in refugee transports and treated the sick children. Then I remember that I carried out a scabies drive in Hohenlychen and that Prof. Gebhardt helped me. I was able to take about two hundred children suffering from scabies into the clinic for treatment. In short, I helped everywhere where help was needed and where I was able to give it.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have no further questions at this point.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 o'clock next Tuesday morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)