1947-04-11, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, during the recess I have got my hands on a few copies of Document Book No. 1 and I request permission to give them to the Tribunal. First, though, I should like to point out one thing. I have ascertained that the correct English text and also the German text of Sievers Document No. 40 is to be found in English Document Book No. 1. On the other hand, in the German document book the English text is also included. I can explain that as follows. The witness Borkenau, whose document this is, gave me at the time his English translation. Then, when I turned in my document book to be translated, I also turned in this English translation in order to be of assistance to the Translation Division. When the document book was finally put together, the defense, according to present custom, has no influence and consequently it was not possible for me to look through this book before it was put before the Tribunal.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, might I ask the defense counsel whether or not the affiant in Document No. 40, Borkenau, is the same Borkenau that he intends to call here as a witness?

DR. WEISGERBER: Yes, that is the same man so that there is no question of reading this document here.

MR. HARDY: Then there will be no necessity of introducing Document No. 40.

DR. WEISGERBER: No, the witness will appear here. Consequently, this document will not be read.

May I now inquire whether Document No. 41 is in English or in German in the document book before the Tribunal?

THE PRESIDENT: The copy furnished me of Document No. 41 appears in English. I don't know about the other document books but that matter will be corrected. Any that are incorrect will be supplemented with an English translation.

WOLFRAM SIEVERS — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. WEISGERBER:

Q: Witness, before the recess you mentioned a few cases in which you were able to assist persons who were repressed by the Nazi regime.

Was the assistance that you were able to give in certain cases possible without any further ado?

A: No, by no means. Luck, strong nerves, and courage were an essential part of this. Those who don't know this period from their own experience in Germany can only have an approximate picture of the difficulties that always had to be overcome. Thus, in 1944 the Chief of Staff of the Personal Staff, as my superior officer, wanted to institute a trial against me for doing favors for prisoners and, in this connection, the rights that I had previously had were taken away from me; namely, my right to have immediate personal contact with the division chiefs. I had to carry on a steady warfare with the SD which demanded very careful tactics. This alone, however, was not enough to take care of the ticklish situation. Himmler was president of the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage] and from 1943 I could withdraw into my position in the Reich Research Council and frequently I could only master the situation because of this. Let me give a brief example to clarify that matter. Himmler wanted to give Hitler a birthday present, a printed work which was to be printed especially for the purpose. I received the order to arrange for this. I had this volume prepared by a famous Leipzig professor who was known as a bookbinder. This artist, however, was not a Party member. In fact, he was under surveillance as a Social Democrat and the SD made a great issue of this. It was considered as lese majesty for Himmler to submit a book to Hitler that had been prepared by a Social Democrat. Then, as a matter of fact, Himmler did not use this book for the birthday present as he had intended. I was called to answer for this and only because it was such a high work of art which Himmler saw was I spared difficulties.

Q: Witness, in describing this event you wish to make clear how care fully you were being supervised and watched by the SD, is that so?

A: Yes, that is so, and I can give you an example to prove that I actually was being supervised. In 1944 I had a violent showdown with the SD which was concluded with the assurance that the matter was settled.

However, such assurances were always of a very dubious nature and I found out thereafter that I was to be supervised by the SD in Bayreuth. The SD leader there came to me on the pretense that he wanted to get information on my office which had been transferred to that neighborhood. During the conversation it appeared that we had an acquaintance in common, a man who was closely befriended to this man, and because of this he said to me what his real assignment was. He then sent a report to Berlin which clarified the situation so far as I was concerned. This was just one of those pure accidents that sometimes appear. However, I was sitting on a keg of powder, as it were, and at the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945 the police chief of Nuernberg at that time wanted to charge me with sedition which, at that time, would have been considerably more than just a concentration camp penalty. However, I regarded it as my human duty always to help whenever Dr. Hielscher or other members of our circle asked for assistance.

Q: Witness, in the first part of your direct examination you stated that the human being experiments with which you came in touch because of Himmler were odious to you personally. Why then did you not, on some excuse or other, abandon your activities as the Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe? Thus, in one fell swoop you would have extracted yourself from this complicated position in which you found yourself.

A: In the Spring of 1942 I had already this point of view when I saw the experiments in Dachau. I have already said that during the Easter discussions with Himmler I attempted to keep this matter separate from the Ahnenerbe because I wished to have nothing to do with that personally. It is true that after I was frustrated in this effort to effect this separation I might have been able to extract myself in some way or other from this situation. However, this did not take place for the following reasons. As soon as I came in touch with the first experiments on human beings I told Dr. Hielscher and my other friends about them and declared unequivocally that I wanted to have nothing to do with these things and did not have anything to do with them. My friends pointed out to me that, should I go away, should I abandon the position of Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe, I would not thereby effect the least changes in these experiments that Himmler had ordered and it is true that this is correct, what they said.

On the other hand, because of my departure the members of our group would no longer be protected by me in my position in the Ahnenerbe and this would most assuredly direct the attention of the Gestapo in my direction. Everything that I had done in the Ahnenerbe would have been checked very carefully and it could be counted on that the secret thread that led to the other groups in the resistance movement would be discovered. These consequences would be most unhappy for the conspiratorial activities of the group and, moreover, my very important observation post for the Hielscher movement would have been abandoned had I left. After mature consideration and inner struggle I decided to remain at my post in order, in this position, to contribute to the destruction of the Nazi regime. My entire contact with the experiments in which, according to the prosecution, I participated in some way or another consisted, so far as I regarded these matters as criminal, in purely external things. Spiritually, I repudiated them definitively. My external participation consisted only in assisting in the carrying out of the plans, the goal of which was the liberation of the German people; but, nevertheless, I didn't let things just take their own way. I was not, by any means, indifferent to what was going on. Accordingly, among other things I was able to prevent first the undertaking of Rascher's human being experiments, which he was planning on a large scale in the field of cancer research, by interesting the chief cancer researcher in the Reich Research Council, Dr. Blome. Secondly, I was able to prevent what Himmler had repeatedly ordered; namely, the finding of a low-pressure chamber, both in the Autumn of 1942 and in the Autumn of 1943, and this meant that Rascher's experiments were not continued.

Thirdly, I prevented the carrying out of Rascher's cold experiments in the mountains because by prolonging negotiations I kept him from getting the necessary equipments. Thus, I was also able to bring about a union of orders from Himmler to Rascher, with assignment by the Reich Research Council. Since Reich Research Council orders were issued at the end of 1942 Rascher did not carry on any further human being experiments, because from then on he was not responsible for his work solely to Himmler but for the first time was responsible also to a professional faculty to which he was obliged to report: to the competent man in the Reich Research Council, namely Professor Sauerbruch. And Rascher would never have been able to stand up against the criticism of such a man. When finally, and fourthly, I met in Dr. Ploetner the first man who refused outright to carry on human being experiments, Himmler finally in 1944 saw to it that the institute for Military Medical Research no longer had anything to do with human being experimentation and said that such matters were exclusively Grawitz' affair, who also carried them on. I would have been unable to prevent this had I left my position.

Q: Mr. President, in this context I offer from Document Book I, Document No. 18, on page 42, as Sievers Exhibit 21. This is an affidavit of Wolfgang Wellmann. From this affidavit I should like to read merely a brief paragraph, namely on page 43, the first paragraph.

All these actions of Sievers were tactical masterpieces which I admired, as Himmler and most of the other Leaders of Party and State justifiably and continually mistrusted each other and their closest circle and protected themselves by means of a well organized and effectively secret police mechanism.

This affidavit is correctly certified.

As further document I offer from Document Book Sievers II, No. 48, on page 22 in the English book. This will be Sievers Exhibit No. 22.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you please give me that Document number again.

DR. WEISGERBER: Document No. 48, Sievers Exhibit No. 22, Sievers Document Book II, page 22, of the English translation, and this I offer as Sievers Exhibit 22. This is an affidavit by Arno Seemann-Deutelmoser also a member of Hielscher's Resistance Group, and with whom Sievers spoke at great length about the situation in which he found himself because the Ahnenerbe concerned itself with experimentation. Seemann-Deutelmoser states here in detail a number of reasons for which Sievers at that time was to remain in this Resistance Movement, above all, because of his position in the Ahnenerbe. I need not read this document.

Witness, in view of the goal of the Resistance Movement, namely, an armed uprising — did you undertake any larger plans yourself?

A: In connection with the other groups, it appeared after the collapse at Stalingrad that the appropriate time for action had arrived. Hielscher, Deutelmoser, and myself had long conversations about how this final goal should be achieved. Hielscher who was also in touch with the leading members of other groups reported on the incomprehensible hesitation on the part of the military clique which primarily was commissioned to do away with the leading Party members. We decided to carry out our own assassination of Himmler and Hitler, and if that were not possible to at least assassinate Himmler as the more powerful man.

Q: You just said that Himmler was the more powerful man. Now please explain that.

A: It does sound funny, but that is the way it was. Hitler looked like the most important man, but Himmler, because of concentration of means of power in his hands was actually the more powerful. Himmler was the center point of the entire Waffen-SS and of most of the Allgemeine (General) SS.

The entire Police, including the SD and the Gestapo. From '43 he was Reich Minister of the Interior, and thus in control of the entire internal German control machinery. Moreover from 1944 on, after disposing of Canaris, Himmler took over the entire Military Counterintelligence Service. Thus Himmler had acquired an extraordinary power, and consequently he appeared to be the man whom it was the most important to do away with. There was, however, another important factor.

A: At this time even in higher SS leading circles there already were misgivings about Hitler, which were to be traced back to his false decisions in military spheres, and also to persons like Bormann's attitude toward him by Himmler, whose person seemed to them to be inviolable, and they saw in Himmler to be sure, largely for their own private selfish reasons, the man who should be at the helm of the state instead of Hitler. If Himmler were done away with first, then the danger of civil war would be measurably reduced because there was the opposition to Hitler which was founded on a larger basis, and that after first getting away with Himmler it would be a simple matter to do away with Hitler. We could avoid civil war within the frame work of our revolt and this was in the interest of the nation as a whole which was under serious enough pressure as it was.

Q: Witness, was the intention to do away with Himmler discussed with the other groups of the resistance movement and was it oriented towards their intentions also?

A: In all groups that are armed to act forcibly could only be done by getting rid of the leading personages in the SS and the Nazi regime, that way only could the goal be attained. To be sure it was not easy to reach agreements with the other groups regarding time and technique. This circumstance and the preparations which were necessary to make it possible for us to take over the entire administrative machinery of the State, which was our intention, and this kept postponing the date at which our uprising was to take place.

Q: Now, witness, I should like to hear from you very briefly something about your concrete plans, which as you said previously, were directed toward getting rid of Himmler.

A: Well the point of departure was the following: The assassination would have to be carried out so that between the time it was carried out and the time it became known, there were at least twenty-four hours. In this way we were to have an opportunity to acquaint the entire State apparatus and the Army with the new state of affairs, and thus, if possible, to avoid a civil war. From the plans that were cast on this point of view, the following seemed to offer the best chances of success: I have already mentioned yesterday the "House of Nature" in which Himmler was very much interested. He had visited it several times and the manager of the "House of Nature" had told him that in a certain region of the Alps vultures still lived. Himmler issued the order to find out where these birds nests and to observe them. After these observations had been concluded, he himself wanted to go there on a hunting trip. The place was found in the Salzachtal in Oberpinzgau in a deep side valley. Roughly, thirty vultures were seen there. I had a film taken of this in order to interest Himmler even more in this habitation. In the summer of 1943 I made all the arrangements necessary for the assassination to be carried out.

Q: Witness, in your diary of 1943, under the date of 18 May, there is an entry "Movie Pictures of White Headed Vulture." Now are those the movies you just spoke of?

A: Yes, the location was particularly favorable for this assassination. There was a climb of several hours up to the hunting region, which made it certain, even if everything went wrong, that we would have a head start of a few hours. I got a hold of a car that could go through rough terrain and found out that there would only be necessary a short one hour's walk from where the car would have to stop to the hut.

The narrow valley, once the car had left the hut up the valley, could most readily be closed for several days. We worked out exactly where it was to take place and when. Signal stations were arranged for which were to communicate the news of the event a few moments after it had occurred, to our men in Berlin, and they would then go into action immediately. This would give us a very great head start and the fact that Himmler was out of the way would only become known where we wanted it to become known, and during this decisive period the orders could actually be given to the SS as if they came from Himmler.

Q: When were the preparations for these plans concluded?

A: They were concluded in the autumn of 1943.

A: Now how is it that these plans were never carried out? You just said that in 1943 because of the considerable military reverses you thought that would be a most appropriate time for such an undertaking?

A: There were three reasons for this: First of all, the hunting could only be done between July and September; secondly, it depended on what time Himmler picked for the trip; and thirdly, in 1943, the cooperation between the various groups was not so close that we could have taken over the entire governmental administration immediately.

Q: In other words, you had to put off the carrying out of your plans until 1944?

A: Yes and we made many efforts, continually reminding Himmler of this vulture hunting trip. I spoke to Himmler about personally in January and in March 1944.

At the beginning of 1944 he himself looked at a panorama which was arranged in the house of nature about the life of these vultures, and then Himmler himself set the date for this hunting trip at the end of July or the beginning of August.

Q: Now how come you didn't carry out the plan in 1944?

A: On 19 July 1944, I went to Salzburg to check on arrangements once more for the last time. There while I was on the way I received information on the 20th of July on the unsuccessful attempt on Hitler's life. I hastened back to Berlin to get more details and if possible to help my friends. Our intended attempt was abandoned after the 20th of July, because most of the leaders of our resistance movement, including Hielscher, were arrested, and Himmler called off the hunting trip because of the new duties that were falling upon him as a consequence of his new job as commander of the Reserve Forces (Ersatzheer).

Q: You just said that Hielscher was put in prison in connection with the attempt of the 20th of July. Now I am surprised that you yourself, because you belonged to the resistance movement, were not also arrested.

A: I also was interrogated by the Kriminalrat [Detective] Neuhaus of the Gestapo. I was accused of participating in the movement and Nehaus told me that Hielscher had already confessed that I participated and had named the men in his group and that perhaps I could save my life if I named those who were in the Hielscher group. Since we had agreed not to name the names of the others under any circumstances, I assumed quite correctly that Neuhaus was merely bluffing. From his questions I saw that he had pretty well uncovered the threads of these resistance groups and I had to confess that I had known of Hielscher's conversation with Stauffenberg at Bamberg. It was also unfortunate that a letter in the Villa Haeften proved Hielscher's connection with the Ahnenerbe. My explanation of this was not accepted by Neuhaus; I was treated very roughly and brutally by him and he released me with orders to keep myself available until I received further orders.

When I was called for a further investigation, this was in October of 1944, I heard that Neuhaus had been transferred and a Kriminalrat by the name of Saunders continued my interrogation and it was because of this that I got off. Saunders was an old official, very correct and decent in contrast to Neuhaus. I was able to cover for Hielscher on the basis of his phony orders from the Ahnenerbe and in the time that followed I was even able to bring it about that Hielscher was set free after I had agreed to stand for him; however, the condition was made that he should be freed from prison so that he could join an SS 'probation' troop, but this in turn we were able to prevent as when he was set free there was waiting for him an induction order into the Wehrmacht, which his friends and I had arranged for him.

Q: Witness, what would your role had been had the assassination been carried out?

A: My active participation in the assassination itself.

Q: You firmly intended to take part in it; did you not?

A: Yes.

Q: This what you and your friends attempted; was it not political murder?

A: In our circle, for humane and ethical reasons, we repudiated political murder, what we intended was to liberate the German people and the innumerable foreigners who had fallen into Himmler's clutches. The liberation from a man, whom we regarded as the incarnation of cruelty and conscientiouslessness, the doing away of such a creature, in comparison to whom the brutal and sadistic actions of persons like Caeser Borgia were nothing, appeared to me, in view of the whole situation, as a morally completely justifiable deed. I believe that in this attitude I am in agreement with not only the great majority of decent Germans, including prominent representatives of the two Christian faiths. I am fully convinced that this attitude of mine will be approved by every ethical and righteous thinking person in the whole civilized world.

DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, this is the end of my direct examination. I ask permission to submit further Documents at a later date.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand that counsel rests his case for the defense of this defendant at this time.

DR. WEISGERBER: That is true.

THE PRESIDENT: With leave to submit Documents at a later date.

DR. WEISGERBER: The direct examination is concluded.

THE PRESIDENT: That concludes the direct examination of the defense counsel.

DR. WEISGERBER: That is so.

THE PRESIDENT: The court will be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)