1947-04-14, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
WOLFRAM SIEVERS — Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Mr. Sievers, as I understand it from your direct examination, you were directly opposed to the establishment of an institute for military scientific research in the framework of the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage] Society?
A: Yes. May I say something very briefly with regard to the document which was submitted to me before the recess? With great ease you will be able to find many similar letters. I already stated that there was a very close connection between Hirt and Himmler. This letter proves that I did not destroy my own files; otherwise you would not have been able to find that letter.
Q: Now going into the other subject, doctor. You state that you were definitely opposed to the establishment of an institute for military scientific research within the framework of the Ahnenerbe Society. Well, now, as a matter of fact, you were quite active, openly active, in the formation, the preparation, and the foundation, of this institute for military scientific research, weren't you?
A: I explained in detail what I tried to prevent when I had that conversation with Himmler at Easter 1942. The possibilities of objection on my part were extremely limited. As it can be seen from the Statute of the Society, I only had a right to interfere in matters concerning budgets, or other organization matters. In this manner I was already able to prevent two different things. In the year 1939 already Himmler wanted to create a Cancer Research Institute under the charge of Professor Holtz, and wanted to affiliate it to the Ahnenerbe. At that time Professor Holtz wanted a yearly budget of 900 thousand marks. By indicating this assignment as alien in its nature to our Society, and in view of the large budget required, I was able to prevent this affiliation. Professor Holtz was later supported by Professor Blome in this, and I saw him again in the year 1943. My right of objection was extremely limited when Himmler at Easter 1942 stated that these matters were not to be furnished from the monies belonging to the Ahnenerbe, but from monies of the Waffen SS. When my objection had no avail, and at this occasion Himmler became very energetic, I could succeed in seeing to it that a separate institution was created, namely this institute for Military Science Research and affiliated to the Ahnenerbe; but this was merely a union with the Ahnenerbe as far as personnel was concerned as existed elsewhere. For instance, the personnel of the German Research Society was also used for the Reich Research Council. However, the two institutions continued to exist independently of one another. When Himmler finally issued that order, and after my objection was not successful, I did as directed all the preparatory work to set up this institute for military scientific research.
Q: Then you did engage in activities which eventually resulted into the foundation of these institutes for military scientific research?
A: I described in detail the developments causing this during my direct examination.
Q: Now, what did you do personally to further the establishment of the Station in the Natzweiler Concentration Camp for Military Scientific Research? Did you do anything, did you take any aggressive steps to carry out the Reichs-Fuehrer's order, as you put it, to establish this Military Scientific Research Station in the Natzweiler Concentration Camp?
A: In this respect, in Professor Hirt's matter, Himmler had issued very clear directives. He ordered, and that can be seen from Document 095, that I discuss with Hirt the possibility of his being still more closely included in the work. That was done in the execution of Himmler's order.
Q: And when you established this station, did you have ideas about perhaps establishing it, perhaps not at Natzweiler but at some other camp?
A: Upon Himmler's request, Hirt in supplementation of his activities, was to carry out experiments in Dachau. He, however, rejected that because of the distance involved and because of his being indispensable at Strasbourg. Himmler thereupon ordered that this was to be carried out at Natzweiler.
Q: Then consistent with your thought and your statement, did you make arrangements with, we will say Gluecks, Brigadefuehrer [Brigadier General] Gluecks, who was in charge of the concentration camps at that time? Did you make arrangements with Bluecks to get a station for Military Scientific Research in the Natzweiler Concentration Camp?
A: Any such institute could only come about through the arrangement of the administration of the concentration camps, and it was for that reason I had to discuss this matter with Gluecks.
Q: And you did discuss it with Gluecks, didn't you?
A: Yes, I had to discuss this matter with Gluecks.
Q: And what did you discuss with Gluecks?
A: The creation of laboratories or work rooms at Natzweiler, and in particular experimental stations with animals, and arrangements for the breeding of animals, which were set up then.
Q: You were aware of the fact that experiments were to be carried out on the inmates, weren't you? Or was it just animals?
A: I had already pointed out repeatedly that the principal basis of Hirt's work was animal experiments, or could only have been animals experiments; and above that, however, Himmler wanted Hirt to carry out experiments on human beings. Hirt did both of these things at Natzweiler.
Q: Now, did you, when you consulted with Gluecks, make it apparent that experiments were to be performed on inmates? Did you know at that time when you consulted with Gluecks in order to lay the groundwork for the formation of the station at Natzweiler, did you not know that experiments were to be performed on human beings who were incarcerated in the concentration camp Natzweiler?
A: Himmler already ordered that at Easter of 1942.
Q: Well, now, then you answer to my question I put to you a few moments ago, is that you were aware that experiments were to be carried out on inmates at Natzweiler Concentration Camp?
A: Yes, I said that.
MR. HARDY: That is fine. Me turn to Document No. NO-978, which will be offered at this time, your Honor, as Prosecution Exhibit No. 480, for identification. Now, this is a letter dated 11 September 1942, on the letterhead of The Chief of the Office Ahnenerbe, addressed to SS Brigadefuehrer Bluecks, Subject: Military Scientific Research in connection with the concentration camp Natzweiler. Reference: Personal discussion of the 9th inst.
Brigadefuehrer:
Based on my report that, as proposed by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, there is a good possibility for carrying out our Military Scientific Research Work in the concentration camp Natzweiler, I hereby summarize what awaits your approval.
1) Information to the commander's office, concentration camp Natzweiler: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer [Captain] Prof. Dr. Hirt, Stabsarzt [Staff Surgeon] Dr. Wimmer and Dr. Kieselbach, are authorized to enter the concentration camp Natzweiler.
During their activity in the concentration camp Natzweiler they are to be provided with accommodations and board.
And now will you turn to paragraph 5 in the same document, wherein you state:
The experiments which are to be performed on prisoners are to be carried out in four rooms of an already existing medical barracks. Only slight changes in the construction of the building are required: in particular the installation of a hood which can be produced with very little material. In accordance with attached plan of construction managements at Natzweiler, I request that necessary orders be issued to same to carry out the reconstruction.
Then you state:
I would be very grateful to you, my dear Brigadefuehrer, if you would inform the Commander of the Natzweiler concentration camp, that you have approved the execution of the work at Natzweiler, just as it was discussed with me there and about which I reported to you in detail, and that you desire that we be given assistance in fulfilling the tasks with which we have been entrusted by the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
Q: Then upon orders of the Reichsfuehrer-SS you handled almost exclusively the preparations for the foundation of the institute at the Natzweiler camp, didn't you?
A: As I already stated earlier, and as it is being confirmed in this letter, from paragraph two of this letter, it can be seen that the breeding of animals was arranged very exclusively —
Q: Just a moment, Mr. Sievers.
A: — And that a certain man, Walbert, was placed at the disposal—
Q: Just a moment, I asked you a question. I want you to answer that first, and then you may explain the document. Didn't you, nearly exclusively, make all the arrangements for the establishment of the Institute far Scientific Research in the Natzweiler concentration camp, and I will say in addition, on the orders of the Reichfuehrer-SS?
A: Just as I answered you before, by order of the Reichsfuehrer-SS I arranged all the discussions in Natzweiler in order to enable Hirt to work there.
Q: Now did you find out for Himmler that Natzweiler would be the best place to carry out these experiments successfully?
A: I said before that Himmler had suggested Dachau instead of Natzweiler, and that becomes apparent from the letter, and that Hirt who was with me at Natzweiler, stated that he could very well work there.
Q: Well, didn't you actually make a tour of concentration camps in order to find cut which one would be the most suitable for this purpose?
A: No. I already told you that except Dachau, Natzweiler and Oranienburg I had visited no concentration camp, and that Himmler actually finally made that suggestion. It says in the first sentence:
as proposed by the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
Q: Now let us turn to Document NO-935 which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 481 for identification. This document bears your initials, doesn't it, Mr. Sievers?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, now, this document is dated 27 August, which is a short time prior to the time the document was submitted to you wherein you reported to Gluecks. This states as follows:
To SS-Brigadefuehrer Gluecks, Oranienburg. Subject: Military scientific research in connection with the Natzweiler camp.
Brigadefuehrer:
As a result of the official tour in connection with the creation of an Institute for Military Scientific Research ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, I have unfortunately been unable to come and see you so far in order to report to you about the particulars of the researches and investigations, as SS Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel] Dr. Brandt proposed to you in his letter. Today, I again have to go to Strassburg to hold further discussions with SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt and should like to take the opportunity of going to Natzweiler with him on Monday 31 August 42. May I, as this official tour had to be decided on suddenly, ask you to have the commander of the camp advised of my visits? Upon my return I will come and report to you.
Heil Hitler!
Sievers.
Now is Natzweiler the only camp to which you made an official visit for this purpose?
A: Yes. It was for that reason that I went to Strassburg to see Professor Hirt. At that time I had not yet been to Natzweiler because, as it becomes apparent from this letter, I had had to ask Gluecks for permission to get into the camp. As I said in my direct examination, I couldn't get into the camp unless he approved my visit there. I made many official tours, but no official tours in order to find a suitable concentration camp.
Q: Well, now, you were very much in favor of expressly choosing Natzweiler, weren't you? Weren't you in favor —
A: As becomes apparent from the previous submitted letter, Himmler had ordered that because Natzweiler was close to Strassburg.
Q: I see. Well, now, didn't you consider that the working conditions in Natzweiler were extremely favorable for this purpose?
A: Hirt established that because it was very close to Strassburg.
Q: Well, let's see if Hirt established that. Let us have a look at Document NO-977 —
MR. HARDY: — which will be offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 482, Your Honor.
Q: Are your initials there, Mr. Sievers?
A: Yes.
Q: Now we will read this little note that bears your initials.
Note Subject: The carrying out of military scientific research in concentration camp Natzweiler.
As a result of the conference on 31 August 1942 at the concentration camp Natzweiler, there is a possibility that the research ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS in the concentration camp Natzweiler be carried out. Working conditions on the whole are extraordinarily favorable. The difficulty lies in the reaching of the camp. For the time being, the scientists ordered to carry out the investigation, Professor Dr. Hirt, Stabsarzt Dr. Wimmer, and Dr. Kiesselback have to use the train from Strassburg to Kotau. From there, however, they have to be picked up by car. For these additional trips, twenty liters of gasoline must be made available to the local camp headquarters monthly.
And that is signed, "Sievers." I call your attention to the sentence:
Working conditions on the whole are extraordinarily favorable.
That is not Hirt's idea. That is Mr. Sievers' idea, is it not?
A: As it can be seen from the letter to Gluecks, there was a man in that camp called Oberscharfuehrer [Squad Leader] Walbert who by profession was a breeder of animals and, therefore, was in a position to be in charge of the entire animal breeding there. This was something that was considered to be extremely favorable by Hirt, and it was so in effect.
Q: Well, Doctor, do you recall Document NO-422 which was Prosecution Exhibit No. 33, contained on page 80 of Document Book No. 2? That is the order signed by Heinrich Himmler to establish the Military Scientific Research Institute within the framework of the Ahnenerbe. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: That is dated 7 July 1942, isn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Now was this idea to establish an Institute for Military Scientific Research exclusively the idea of Heinrich Himmler?
A: I already stated earlier that after this conversation with Himmler and his subsequent order to get into closer contact with Hirt, and as I also stated during my direct examination that Hirt rejected to being put under Grawitz's jurisdiction, this thought arose to create an Institute for Military Scientific Research. This was in connection with the orders I was given Easter time with reference to my assignment, and the result of the conference with Hirt was passed on to Himmler, and it finally led to the formulation of the order dated the 7th of July.
Q: Well, now, you were violently opposed to the attachment of any such institutes as outlined in this order by Heinrich Himmler, the attachment of any such institutes to the Ahnenerbe Society, as you have stated on direct, is that right?
A: Yes, that is correct, and it was for that very reason that I was in favor of a separate institute being created, namely, this Institute for Military Scientific Research.
Q: Then who suggested to Himmler that such an independent organization be used or be set up within the framework of Ahnenerbe?
A: That was done on the basis of the mutual conversations between Hirt and myself, and then between me and Wuest who was my departmental chief, and it was all suggested to Himmler.
Q: Who suggested it to Himmler that they found an institute to be attached to the Ahnenerbe Society?
A: I suggested that to Himmler on the basis of my previous conversations with Hirt and Wuest. I did it by order of Wuest.
Q: Well, at last we are coming around. You suggested that the Institute for Military Scientific Research be established within the framework of the Ahnenerbe Society, didn't you?
A: In order to create an institution which was not in the Ahnenerbe, which would lie outside the framework of the Ahnenerbe.
Q: I have been three days trying to get that answer from you and listening to you on direct; and it is certainly a fact that you suggested it.
MR. HARDY: We will turn now to Document NO-2210 which will be offered at this time for identification, Your Honor, as Prosecution Exhibit No. 483.
Q: On that last page, Mr. Sievers, the one right in front of you, is that your signature?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, now, I have marked in pencil where I want you to take note. You state therein after —
MR. HARDY: This report is a report, Your Honor, dated the 26th of June, 1942, and the subject is "Research by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, Strassburg," and the question of closer collaboration between the Ahnenerbe and him, and here on the last page Defendant Sievers states — which is the third paragraph from the top, Your Honor, on the next to the last page of your English copy, which is incorrectly assembled. The page containing the signature of Sievers, which is a half page of mimeographed subject matter — do you have it, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: It is marked page 4 on ours.
MR. HARDY: That's right, Your Honor.
Q: Now here you state:
To collect these and similar research in the Ahnenerbe, which certainly will occur, and thus facilitate the organizational and technical execution, I suggest:
Foundation of an Institute for Military Scientific Research within the Ahnenerbe.
Appointment of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt as an active member, and his appointment to Chief of Department H (signifying Hirt) of the Institute for Military Scientific Research.
Rascher's work could well be here included. He then could be appointed as Chief of Department R (Rascher). Necessary supplies for such an institute which in the first line will serve the needs of the troops would be easier to explain and more reasonable as if applied for under the name of the Ahnenerbe alone.
/s/ Sievers.
What is the date that appears directly opposite your name on that last page, Mr. Sievers?
A: 26 June 1942.
Q: And the date of the order by Himmler establishing the Institute for Military Scientific Research is 7 July 1942, is it not?
A: Yes, that is also true. From this passage it becomes evident that I am here referring to Himmler's decision dated the 25th of March, which I already mentioned earlier, where he ordered that I discuss with Hirt his closer collaboration. The discussions that were continued with Hirt are here set down; and they were then submitted to Professor Wuest. From the last sentence of this document it can be seen that it was intended not to continue the work under the name of "Ahnenerbe." In other words, this document confirms my conversation with Himmler Easter, 1942, and the subsequent organizational directives and considerations.
Q: It certainly is apparent, Doctor. Let's turn now to another subject. Suppose a doctor wanted to gain entrance into a concentration camp. Generally, weren't you the man who was to be contacted if such an entry permit was requested?
A: If anyone approached me on that matter, it was my duty to transmit that wish to Himmler, or Gluecks, who alone were competent for any such permission.
Q: Now let us turn to Document NO-1657 —
MR. HARDY: — which will be offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 484, Your Honor.
Q: Now this document, Mr. Sievers, is dated 10 January 1942, and it is addressed to Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers.
Highly Honored Mr. Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers:
I acknowledge the receipt of your letter of 3 January 1942. During Sunday I will work on the report which you wish to have, since I have already collected all the necessary material for it. During this week it was not possible for me to compile the report; as I had to give a lecture in Wilhelmshaven, and my time was almost completely taken up with consultations on outbreaks of typhus both there and here. The report will reach Berlin by Tuesday at the latest.
An outbreak of typhus in the Neuengamme Concentration Camp occasions me to request your intervention; that I might be granted permission by the Reichsfuehrer-SS in my capacity as Consulting Hygienist to the Health Administration here concerning the outbreak of such epidemics to visit the concentration camps and; if circumstances permit; to be allowed to undertake experiments by treatment of the patients and tests of delousing agents. Also the Typhus Research Laboratory; established by me in the Tropical Institute; needs material from fresh cases.
The research results achieved in the laboratory with experimental animals; etc., cannot be evaluated practically without such work on patients.
The Hamburg Tropical Institute is available for all collaboration in typhus research and the combatting of typhus.
Heil Hitler.
/s/ Muehlens, Professor Dr. Muehlens; Director of the Tropical Institute; Naval Medical Officer and Consulting Hygienist of the Bulgarian Army.
Now was it usual for people to request that you intervene for them to gain admission to the concentration camps?
A: This letter constitutes a reply to an inquiry which I directed to a number of institutes and researchers at the beginning of January by order of Professor Wuest; in connection with the foundation of an entomological institute which on the 1st of January 1942 had been ordered by Himmler. In this connection I also had to write to Professor Hirt whose reply is also here available as a document.
I had to write to Professor Hirt because he mentioned Rose in his reply; and when cross-examined, I already answered the Defense Counsel of Rose as to what I did with that letter. I transferred it to my department chief who then on his own initiative found a head for this entomological institute. I didn't knew Professor Muehlens personally, nor did he know me personally, and I think that he probably only asked me to intervene on his behalf because he received a letter with the heading, "Reichsfuehrer-SS."
Q: Well, now, when you intervened, to whom did you refer this matter?
A: What matter are you talking about?
Q: This letter of Dr. Muehlens. He wanted to get into the camp. To whom did you refer the matter?
A: I can't tell you that from memory. I really don't know it anymore.
Q: Well, now, logically let's think about it a moment. Who would you inform, or who would you ask, so that this doctor could be admitted into the Neuengamme concentration camp?
A: I would have sent this letter of Mr. Muehlens to Rudolf Brandt asking him to present it to the Reichsfuehrer-SS and get his decision.
Q: You wouldn't have sent it to Grawitz?
A: Only after having received a reply from Brandt concerning Himmler's decision in that respect, but I was only directly in contact with Himmler and not with Grawitz.
Q: Well, now, this appears to be from this letter you have before you a medical problem. Isn't it?
A: Yes. We are here concerned with medical problems.
Q: And who were the two highest ranking men in the medical services of the SS?
A: Grawitz.
Q: Who else?
A: Grawitz and Gebhardt.
Q: How about our friend, Mr. Genzken? He was a pretty high fellow, wasn't he?
A: Yes, but I never had anything to do with Mr. Genzken. He was the chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS, and I had no connections with that agency of the Waffen-SS.
Q: Well, were you ever ordered to refer this matter to him, to Genzken?
A: I already told you, I don't know what I really did in that case; but I think I probably transmitted that to Brandt, and if Himmler decided to sent it to Genzken, it may have been that later I transmitted it to Genzken, but I can't remember it.
Q: Well, we will look again at another section of this same document, which is page 3 of this document. It is dated 22 January 1942, addressed to Professor Dr. Muehlens, Director of the Tropical Institute.
Subject: Research and Control of the Insects influencing human beings.
Highly Honored Professor,
I thank you very much for your extensive report as well as for the enclosures attached to it and forwarded to me.
I have made use of your material for my report to the Reichsfuehrer-SS and I shall also inform you shortly in regard of your requests expressed in your report.
I have forwarded your letter of 10th January 1942 with my recommendations to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS (SS-Brigadefuehrer Dr. Genzken), Berlin W 15, Knesebeckstrasse 43/44. I think you will be given the opportunity of doing research work in Neuengamme.
Heil Hitler!
— and there appears your signature, does it not?
A: Yes, this is my signature, and what I said before is quite correct.
I used this material for my report to Himmler; and it was from there that I received the order to transmit Muehlen's letter to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, and that is what I told Muehlens.
Q: You are sure you did not receive the order to transfer this letter to the hygienist of the Waffen-SS from Gluecks. Wasn't he the logical man for you to have approached in the first instance to gain admission into a concentration camp?
A: I don't understand your question in that connection. Maybe the translation was not quite correct.
Q: In the first letter Dr. Muehlens is asking for permission or a permit to gain entry into Neuengamme concentration camp. Now he has asked you to intercede in his behalf. Wouldn't the first step which you take be in the direction of Gluecks who had all of these passes? In other words, he had the power of admitting persons to concentration camps?
A: Gluecks would never have done that upon any answer by me. He couldn't have done that. The prerequisite was always an order by Himmler. My only channel was to approach Himmler, as it was actually done in that case, and whereupon Himmler decided that Muehlens' letter be directed to the Hygiene Institute. It is possible that he also ordered that Gluecks be informed of Muehlen's desire simultaneously. Whatever was done in that respect, of course, required an order by Himmler personally. I could order nothing whatsoever.
Q: Well then before you would have forwarded this letter to Genzken you would have had to receive an order from Grandt or Himmler, is that right?
A: Yes, that would have been a prerequisite.
Q: Maybe page two of this same document will clarify that problem for us. This is document, section is dated 19 January, and was sent for information to: The Ahnenerbe", and this document says: That the matter of Professor Muehlens should be referred to the SS Fuehrungshauptamt [Executive Office] — Medical Department, Berlin; and it is signed by Gluecks, and upon receipt of this, for information only, was that why you forwarded the original letter of Muehlens to Dr. Genzken?
A: I can't tell you that from memory.
Q: Well, did you ever talk to Dr. Genzken about this matter at all? Did you ever have any conversations with Genzken?
A: I never spoke to Genzken in all of my life. I transmitted the letter, just as I mentioned in the letter to Muehlens.
Q: So you never talked to Genzken in your life? Let's have a look at the fourth page of this same document. This is addressed to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, for the attention of the SS Brigadefuehrer Dr. Genzken:
Subject: Application by Professor Dr. Muehlens, Director of the Tropical Institute in Hamburg for material for his spotted fever research laboratory.
Brigadefuehrer:
With reference to our telephone conversation of yesterday, I am forwarding you the enclosed letter from Professor Dr. Muehlens, in which he requests that he be granted an opportunity for conducting examinations in the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. I have informed him that I have passed this letter on to you.
Heil Hitler!
And below that appears the signature of Sievers.
Is that your signature?
A: Yes, that is my signature.
Q: Then you have talked to Genzken, haven't you?
A: No, it doesn't mean that at all. This letter was directed to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS for the attention of Dr. Genzken. I didn't speak to Genzken personally.
Q: Well, it was addressed to Brigadefuehrer. The salutation on the letter says: Brigadefuehrer, does it not?
A: Yes, because he was the chief of that office.
Q: It says: "Referring to our conversation" — does it not?
A: It probably refers to the conversation with his adjutant. I didn't speak to Mr. Genzken.
Q: We won't argue that point any further. We will let the Tribunal decide that, Mr. Sievers. I want to ask you a few more questions about your affiliations with certain individuals. When did you first meet Dr. Brandt?
A: You mean Professor Brandt, do you?
Q: Yes, Professor Brandt, Karl Brandt?
A: That was on the 31st of March 1944.
Q: The 31st of March 1944. When did you ever meet Professor Handloser?
A: I never met Professor Handloser.
Q: When did you meet Mr. Ruff, Dr. Ruff, for the first time?
A: Here during the trial.
Q: You never met him when he was working with Rascher?
A: No, I only knew that he was the chief of the German experimental station for aviation.
Q: And you met Romberg when you mot Rascher, is that right? About the same time?
A: Yes.
Q: That was the first time you had ever seen Romberg?
A: Yes, that is when the experiments were already being carried out.
Q: That was the first association you had with Dr. Rascher?
A: I knew Rascher before that, but I only met Romberg on the occasion of my first visit to Dachau.
Q: How long had you known Rascher? Was it early 1942 or when?
A: I already said during my direct examination that I had known Rascher since 1938.
Q: Did you ever make an attempt to intercede in behalf of Rascher, prior to this experimentation in May of 1942 or March of 1943, so that he could go to the concentration camps for experimentation purposes?
A: I said that Rascher up to that time was working with Himmler's adjutant office in Munich.
Q: And you never interceded for Rascher so that Rascher could go to the concentration camps for experimental purposes prior to the first high altitude experiments?
A: No, I can't remember that.
Q: Isn't it a fact that you and Rascher were actually old friends? That you had contact from 1938 on, and you had worked a lot together?
A: During my direct examination I already stated that Rascher at that time intended to carry out work in connection with an early diagnosis of cancer.
Q: What year is that? Establish the year for us, Mr. Sievers?
A: That was — must have been in 1938. Rascher was then drafted into the army, and then this matter never was continued.
Q: And then after that particular situation concerning the cancer problem, you had no further contact with Mr. Rascher until the high altitude problem arose?
A: Until the high altitude matters arose; in the meantime Rascher had been with the Luftwaffe.
Q: Let's have a look at Document NO-1331, which is offered for identification as Prosecution Exhibit 485, Your Honors. Now this is dated 26 May 1939, to the Reichsfuehrer SS, personal staff, attention SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Brandt:
Subject: Identification for Dr. Rascher, Munich, to enter concentration camps.
Upon request of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, among the research experimentations which Dr. Rascher has to carry out, the crystallization of the blood of persons is to be examined, which serve long sentences in concentration camps or are imprisoned for a long time. Please see to it that Dr. Rascher can get authority enabling him to perform such experiments in the Dachau Concentration Camp, and please let me know whom Dr. Rascher may contact there.
Is that SI that appears there under the notation, Wolfram Sievers?
A: Yes, that is my initial.
Q: And the date thereon is the 26 May 1939?
A: Yes, it concerns the crystallization procedure with reference to the cancer work which Rascher intended to carry out.
Q: That is right.
A: The Reichsfuehrer was in favor of that as can be seen from the letter.
It was transmitted to Brandt and that is all.
Q: Now, doctor, here in this trial the Prosecution has introduced nearly seventy-five documents in which your name appears. Some of them are letters signed by you, addressed to you or wherein a third person has mentioned you as a collaborator. The documentary evidence has even proven, that you were better informed in most of these matters, than the human pen-man, Dr. Brandt. Now do you still wish to sit here on this witness stand and tell this Tribunal that you do not have a more complete knowledge of the activities as set forth in this indictment than you have elicited here the last two days? — Do you have nothing further to add about the criminal nature of these experiments and about the part these gentlemen in the dock took in the conduct of such activities?
A: My participation in that work I described it in detail during my direct examination. I have had no reason whatever to keep anything quiet, and I did not intend to keep anything quiet. The documents submitted in that connection all refer to matters which I had to deal with in the framework of my position as General Secretary. If these matters, apparent from the letters and submitted here and often thrown out from their context, a picture appears which is not in accordance with the facts. One only needs to leave out everything which is sensible and clarifies the situation, and then it becomes very easy to condemn a person.
Q: Now, Mr. Sievers, prior to the day you walked into the court room for the arraignment in this case had you ever appeared in this court room before?
A: Yes, I was examined here before the I.M.T.
Q: Why did you appear here before the International Military Tribunal?
A: Because I was called here.
Q: You were called here as a defense witness for the SS as an organization, were you not?
A: I didn't volunteer for that. The defense counsel of the SS called me here and my first act was to show Dr. Pelckmann, my letter dated December 1945, where I told about my membership in the resistance movement, and I told him in that connection I was an unsuitable witness for him. Dr. Pelckmann, however, insisted very urgently that he examine me in connection with the problem of the Ahnenerbe, although this was not any voluntary action on my part. Finally, under difficulty I had an opportunity to speak before the I.M.T. and tell them what I really was, and I told you this morning what difficulties I had in that respect through you.
Q: Now, Mr. Sievers, you appeared before the Commission which was set up by the International Military Tribunal, did you not. Don't give me a long answer, now did you or did you not appear before the Commission of the International Military Tribunal?
A: Yes, under circumstances, which I have just described.
Q: Yes, and you appeared before the International Military Tribunal?
A: Yes, as it becomes apparent from the record.
Q: And didn't the International Military Tribunal, and doesn't the record of the International Military Tribunal show that the testimony before the Commission that it was felt that one Sievers was perjuring himself in this Tribunal?
A: It was the aim — the very calculated aim of the representatives of the Prosecution, to make it appear that way. I studied both records with my defense counsel and I can say that this sophistry which I despise, did not accomplish its aim.
Mr. Hardy: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
(The Tribunal adjourned at this time for noon recess)