1947-04-23, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 23 April 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
GERHARD ROSE — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE PRESIDENT: As I informed counsel for the Defendant Rose during the noon recess, the defendant will have this afternoon within which to complete his testimony in his defense in chief. If the Defendant Rose's testimony is not finished by the time of adjournment this afternoon, the defendant may be allowed to file affidavits to supplement that, but his testimony in chief must be closed with the session this afternoon.
Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for the Defendant Rose):
Q: Professor, after knowing everything about Dr. Schilling's work were you convinced that his work was carried out without any objection being raised, and upon what was your conviction based?
A: I was quite convinced of that, and I had the best opportunity of getting acquainted with his post. He had been working at the Robert Koch Institute for 29 years. His work methods there were well-known and were always without any fault. Before that he had been Colonial physician and from that period of time his work was always unobjectionable. I, myself, read the report about his work with the Italian government. This work was carried out in an unobjectionable manner, as far as that being apparent from the report. It was a matter of course that the malaria experiments, be experiments on human beings, without resorting to the experiment on human beings.
There is no other scientific method. In history you find that malaria experiments were either carried out on insane people or on volunteers. The first period lasts from 1920 to 1921 when you had the volunteers, and then one found the malaria treatment of insane people and there you found a community of work between malariologists and psychiatrists.
Q: How did it come about that the work of Dr. Schilling was interrupted in Italy and you went to Dachau?
A: I can only tell you how I officially got to know about these matters. My knowledge does not cover itself with the description as it is given in document book number 4. When giving my description I shall clearly distinguish from what I know from my own personal knowledge and what I know from hearsay. There was a rumor in Berlin in the year 1941 that Schilling had difficulties with the Italian government. In the fall or the winter of 1941 the physician with whom I had worked during the resettlement period approached me on the following matter. He said that he was in Rome on an official trip accompanying Professor Conti. He said that the German ambassador introduced Schilling to Dr. Conti and Schilling then told Conti about his work in the Italian insane asylum. He described his results as very good and full of hope. Conti was very enthusiastic and then became very excited over the situation where such a well-known German scientist could not find any place in Germany. Conti then made promises to Schilling. My confidential agent was a little skeptical and asked me what I thought about Schilling's work. I voiced my misgivings about his work, misgivings which I could not testify to here, and of which a number of other tropical hygienists agreed with me.
Q: Did you receive any official report about this meeting?
A: No, officially I heard nothing about these events. I only found out that the Ministry of the Interior had sent a report to the Robert Koch Institute containing a request by Dr. Schilling that he be furnished a new laboratory and that he be given assistance.
Q: And what happened to this request?
A: Professor Gildemeister telephoned me, and in spite of my military work he asked me to write an opinion. He said that this was a very awkward situation, and that Conti had made promises, and was rather worried over the fact that his assistants were not as enthusiastic as he was. He said he had no idea that knowledge was available in the Ministry about Schilling's work for years. I than wrote and asked that this opinion be made available here from the documents of the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
At that time I studied this work very thoroughly. I read through all the malaria files of Schilling. I read through his entire work regarding protosone immunity, and subsequently wrote this opinion I mentioned, which I sent to the Ministry of the Interior and which contained five principal points. Firstly, that from what human beings call a protective vaccination against malaria is impossible. Secondly, in case this should be possible by applying Schillings method against all expectations this would only have a theoretical meaning, because practically this method could not be carried out to any large extent. This was further explained in the third point to which I cannot refer now owing to lack of time. Then I wrote that Schilling had worked on this problem for over 40 years, and according to general experience it was highly improbable that a researcher who had not found a solution within 40 years would find it after having concluded his 70th year. Finally, from the point of view of War, I emphasized that even if Schilling's suggestion could have some theoretical interest one would use that there was a War on and that material and personnel was scarce. Therefore it could not be justified that material and personnel be made available to him. I think on very rare occasions is anyone justified an objection to the extent I did at that time, and at the end of the opinion I wrote, and you must see that when you find it, that I was 30 years younger than Schilling, and it was a very unpleasant duty for me to write any unfavorable opinion about the work of such a well known tropical physician. I therefore asked that no such opinion be asked from me in the future. According to Frau Block's testimony this opinion was then sent into the Ministry of the Interior.
Q: Did you later concern yourself with this matter?
A: I have heard now that there was a conference about that subject in the Ministry of the Interior, however I did not participate in that conference.
Q: In this stage of the matter was the thought pronounced that Professor Schilling was going to execute the examinations that were planned by him in a concentration camp?
A: According, to my knowledge there was no mention of that made either orally or in writing, and I learned nothing further about the development of this matter. I therefore cannot say whether Schillings's description can be found in Document 356, Exhibit 125, which is to be found in Document Book 4, page 6. I don't know whether this description is correct. I only know about this short excerpt in my opinion, which I already mentioned. Upon whose request Schilling got into contact with Himmler I do not know.
Q: When did you plan that Professor Schilling was working in Dachau?
A: I cannot say that with any amount of certainty. Probably when members of my department told me that Schilling had asked for anopheles, and that this question had been granted, on this occasion I heard for the first time that in spite of my opinion he had received some possibility to work, and he also carried out that work at Dachau.
Q: Did you then consider under what conditions and on what circles of persons Schilling was carrying out his experiments; It must have been clear to you that he could only experiment on human beings; you must have known that in your capacity as a malarilogist?
A: That naturally was a matter of course. In the case of malaria there is no other experiment but the experiment on human beings, but since I was not to participate I didn't think much about how he was proceeding in detail. I knew that Schilling had worked for 40 years in an unobjectionable way, and I had no reason to assume that he would change in any way. I therefore had to assume that he was either carrying out malaria injections for therapeutical reasons or that he received the approval of the experimental subjects, as it was the case before. I thought also this was a matter of course that he would receive such approval because of the malaria experiments that were carried out throughout the world up to the years of 1920 and 1921, which were carried out without any research or having any difficulty in getting the experimental subjects. In addition the document which was submitted by Dr. Servatius proved that hundreds of volunteers were found in American prisons. Why should it be any different in Germany? This was a matter of course, and I didn't think about this matter as long as it takes me to discuss it here. One after all must have some reason in order to start getting suspicious. Whether or not one can be of a different opinion as to the voluntary nature of such inmates is a different chapter entirely; but that does not only refer to the voluntary aspect of Schilling's experimental subjects, but it refers to the voluntary aspect of subjects in medical experiments generally. Now, if you start criticizing that work in detail there is very much you can say about it. At any rate I had no knowledge under what conditions or under what prerequisites Schilling was working at Dachau, and it constitutes a great surprise to me to learn from the documents in this trial that Schilling allegedly carried out experiments on thousands of people, particularly since it was characteristic for his previous work that he was only working with small numbers of people.
So much so that the accusation was raised against him by his opponents that his conclusions were built on an insufficient basis.
Q: In that connection Schilling did not discuss his experimental plans with you?
A: No, there was never any conversation about that. He never corresponded with me about it. In the year of 1937 when I took over his department we once had a discussion as to how I was to continue his work. On that occasion with due respect to his age and prestige I told him that I was of a different opinion in questions of Potozone immunity, and that I wouldn't continue the work in the same direction as he. Schilling know exactly that I was his scientific opponent in questions of malaria immunity.
Q: But according to the testimony of the witness Viehweg he allegedly turned to you for advise when he had difficulty in breeding the mosquitoes. In that case he actually turned to his opponent for advise?
A: Well, I was not his personal enemy. I was only opposing him basically in this one scientific question. If one is of a different opinion in scientific questions one endeavors to be particularly polite towards one another, so that his opposition in this one sphere would not assume a personal character. I at no time had any personal differences with Schillings. On this question of mosquitoes and eggs and with reference to advise other view points play a part which have nothing at all to do my person.
Schilling did not actually turn to me, but turned to my assistant. That of course does not change my responsibility in the least, because I am naturally responsible for everything my assistant did with or without my knowledge. I always emphasized towards Gildemeister that I wanted to remain the master at the Tropical Department during the war, and naturally I am fully responsible for whatever has happened there. We are concerned with the following things: Schilling had worked with the Robert Koch Institute for 29 years. An assistant was working at my department who had been his personal assistant for 20 years, and whom I had taken over. It was naturally very natural that he turned to her whenever he needed some little technical help, that is the main reason why he turned to my department. He just as well could have turned to any other Institution in Germany, because there were several other institutions from where he could get malaria strains and mosquitoes.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I have an affidavit from this assistant which Professor Rose mentioned, and it can be found in Rose Document Book 3 on page 16 to 20. I repeat this is Rose Document 35, which I offer as Rose Exhibit No. 32. I should like to start reading it from paragraph 2, page 1. We are concerned with the assistant, Erna von Falkenhayn. I quote:
At present I am an assistant at the Robert Koch Institute at Pfafferede, near Muehlhausen (Thuringia).
I was, as an assistant at the Robert Koch Institute, a coworker of Professor Klaus Schilling for nearly two decades, i. e. until he left the institute on reaching the retirement age in 1937.
I therefore knew that Professor Schilling worked for decades on the problem of protozoa immunity. He especially worked on the immunization of the bovine Tse-Tse disease, and, when these efforts did not bring forth a final satisfactory result, he turned to the immunity problems of malaria and continued to work on this subject after being pensioned off. The work was then made possible by the aid of the Italian government and later on, of the SS, and was performed outside the Robert Koch Institute.
I know that professor Rose, who became Professor Schilling's successor at the Robert Koch Institute, had a very negative and critical attitude toward Professor Schilling's immunity experiments. This opinion of Professor Rose's was shared, among others, by the old and experienced scientist for tropical medicine F. K. Kleine, a former president of the Robert Koch Institute, who did not conceal this attitude from Professor Schilling.
When Professor Schilling left, I was taken over as an assistant by Professor Rose and remained there as one of his assistants until the dissolution of the tropical department at the end of 1943. Therefore, I also know of the work of the department under Professor Rose in the years from 1937 until it was dissolved and converted into the Department for Fever Therapy of the Luftwaffe in the year of 1943 I continued my work as one of Professor Rose's assistants, also in the Department for Fever Therapy, until the end of the war.
The Department for Tropical Medicine never worked with typhus virus, nor did the Department for Fever Therapy. Professor Rose took no interest in the typhus research of the Robert Koch Institute, as Professor Gildemeister personally was in charge of the department, which at that time was exclusively authorized to carry on typhus research.
Professor Gildemeister kept the department in absolute seclusion owing for one thing to the existing danger of infection. For two more reasons I am convinced that Professor Rose had no knowledge of the work of the typhus department: firstly, because the relations between Professor Gildemeister and Professor Rose were rather strained ones, and secondly because the older scientists more that others were always anxious not to make their experiments public knowledge prematurely, and always instructed their assistants to this effect.
In 1943, Professor Rose became vice-president of the Robert Koch Institute. He, however, never executed this office, as he only occasionally and at quite irregular intervals, visited his own department, the Department for Tropical Medicine, and that only in order not to be obliged to entirely give up the department and to discontinue the research work. His military activity had assumed too large a scope. Professor Gildemeister, who had no previous knowledge of Professor Rose's appointment as vice-president, would certainly not have appreciated a close cooperation with him either owing to the aforementioned strained relations between the two gentlemen. When Professor Gildemeister occasionally was absent, he was deputized by Professor Boecker.
In spring of 1942 Professor Schilling asked me for mosquito eggs. He chose to turn to me owing to our long time cooperation and because he probably knew that Professor Rose was with the Wehrmacht. I sent him anopheles eggs at that time, asked him, however, to direct further requests to Miss Lange, who was in charge of the mosquito cultures. I only know that Miss Lange, upon written requests by Professor Schilling, sent further mosquitoes or mosquito eggs to him. I do not know, however, either the dates or the number of the consignments, but I believe that they were all in 1942. Professor Schilling did not receive further material of any kind from the Department for Fever Therapy.
I only know that Professor Schilling, after receiving my consignment, wrote that the mosquitoes were getting along well. The later correspondence went via Miss Lange, and on occasion of such new requests Professor Schilling may have asked for advise regarding the breeding of mosquitoes.
We supplied mosquitoes and mosquito eggs also to other users for breeding and teaching purposes. I recall for instance such a delivery to the Military Medical Academy in Scharnhorststrasse. Further details are not known to me as Miss Lange was competent for these matters. My main task was to conduct current investigations especially with regard to the research on amoeba and part of Professor Rose's tremateda research.
Professor Rose had nothing to do with individual consignments since malaria and the supply of mosquitoes belonged to the routine work of the department. Also, he was present too seldom, and often he could not even be reached by telephone. Such deliveries were made on the basis of his general order and under his official responsibility. I informed him of the delivery of mosquitoes to Professor Schilling and I also showed him Professor Schilling's letter. He consented.
The malaria research of Professor Rose, starting from the time when he joined the Robert Koch Institute as a professor, was conducted exclusively in cooperation with institutions for the insane and other hospitals as part of the so-called therapeutic malaria work, the curative fever treatment. The patients who were to be infected were selected by other physicians. Our department supplied the infected mosquitoes, often performed the infection also and evaluated the subsequent malaria cases from the standpoint of malariology, while the treatment of the patient remained in the hands of the attending physician.
In addition, the assistant physicians conducted malaria experiments on themselves. Finally, in the course of years, all employees of the department, who were in contact with the malaria research work, contracted the disease through unintentional laboratory infections.
These things can hardly be avoided in the course of such research work.
I know that Professor Rose once intentionally infected himself with bilberziolle and subsequently suffered from a strong eosinephile reaction.
Pfefferade, 22 February 1947.
/s/ Erna von Falkenhayn.
Then follows the signature and the certification.
From this affidavit it becomes apparent that you furnished mosquitoes and mosquitoes eggs to other agencies; is there anything else you have to say in this connection?
A: Well, before answering your question, I should like to make some remarks about this Document No. 35. On page 19 it says in the third paragraph that I was informed that Professor Schilling received these mosquitoes and that the letter was shown to me, where he says that the mosquitoes were getting on alright and that I then consented. Miss Block, in her testimony here, said something which seems to be in contradiction with that statement. She said that I was worried about that and that I forbade further material being given to Schilling. This is an external contradiction, but it can easily be cleared up. Upon seeing Schilling's letter and upon hearing that he had these mosquitoes, I could not very well sent a letter to him asking him to send these mosquitoes back to me. Sending these mosquitoes back and forth, I am sure that not many would have remained alive and really there was no reason here to start a big row. Insofar as that went, I agreed with the matter. The description as given by Frau Block is quite right because at that time we only had scarce personnel and the malaria requirements by clinics were increasingly progressively. Furthermore my department did current experimental work on malaria and we had just started to work with DDT and enormous number of mosquitoes were used in that connection. I was really very annoyed that mosquitoes were furnished for a purpose which I considered to be useless. That in itself should be a clarification of this contradiction, none of these ladies are telling an untruth as both ladies are actually correct.
Q: When you were just speaking about the useless purpose, this meant that the question which Professor Schilling tried to solve could not be solved according to your opinion?
A: That was my old opposition, namely that I did not believe in the possibility of a protective vaccination against malaria and what I had read in Schilling's request that he wanted to continue this work about protective vaccinations in his new laboratory.
Well, let us now turn to the question as to whether I furnish any mosquitoes elsewhere; it was really the normal task of my department. You find it currently in the yearly reports and a certain fund had been made ready in order to institute an agency to which every physician could turn who needed malaria mosquitoes. All he had to do was to write there and then be furnished with malaria. This is why we had Miss von Falkenhayn. We only paid her in order to send malaria to clinics and various other physicians. Naturally, my department was not the only source for malaria and mosquitoes. The witness Viehweg said here expressly that Professor Schilling had received mosquitoes from a number of other sources. That obviously was the consequence of my general directive, namely that if Schilling if he wrote once more, nothing more should be furnished to Schilling because we needed these things ourselves. The result is quite clear, he wrote to someone else and received his material.
Q: Did you send any malaria strains to Professor Schilling?
A: I don't know that personally, but among the strains which were mentioned by Viehweg one originated from my department. From my own knowledge I would answer this question in the negative, but in the meantime you have received a report from Miss von Falkenhayn which is not contained in the affidavit to the effect that at one time a malaria strain was furnished to Schilling, hence I know that since Miss von Falkenhayn is a credible person I have to answer that question with "yes," but not of my own knowledge. I think, however, this source is credible.
Q: How is it that you did not know a malaria strain was sent away from your department?
A: Well, it is quite natural. It can be seen from the earlier reports of the departments that currently malaria strains and mosquitoes were furnished to all sorts of places. This was an every day affair. Naturally in peace time I would have learned about that. Then I looked at all of the letters and all of the requests or I signed the consignment paper, or something of that nature. In war time that became impossible. Then these items were handled according to the general directive, after I gave them, and since I never explicitly forbade malaria strains to be sent to Professor Schilling, his application was naturally fulfilled, because why, after all, should Schilling be treated worse than any other physical in Germany. Nobody else had any misgivings in sending malaria strains to Schilling, because the witness Viehweg testified here he was working with twelve different strains. One of these strains was bred by him personally, and one, according to Von Falkenhayn's testimony, originated from my department, and the other ten he received from different sources. A number of these sources were enumerated by Viehweg in his testimony.
Q: The witness Viehweg was speaking about a Rose culture with which he himself was infected. Is that the culture which originated in your department?
A: No, certainly not. At no time did I allow my name to be given to any culture. I don't even know a culture Rose in malaria, literature. From where it comes and who gave it that name I don't know. It is improbable that Schilling would have called a culture which he received from my department, according to Miss Von Falkenhayn's statement, it is improbable because malariologists do not do this. My department naturally furnished this strain in the proper manner by giving the number of the passage and the number of the group, as it was usually done, and as a rule the name is not altered because otherwise there would be a terrific mix-up in literature if you find this strain appearing under different names. Naturally, whenever such malaria strains were sent to clinics, one could never know what was going to happen to it, because you find no malariologist today who a bides by rules. My employees have ascertained in insane asylums in Berlin repeatedly that they encountered malaria strains with unknown names. That interested us very much and we looked at the source and found that it was a well-known strain, which the psychiatrist just left un-named, but it really doesn't make any difference whether the strain Rose came from my department or any other. At any rate he received one strain from my department and that suffices.
Q: The witness Viehweg states that Professor Schilling was receiving malaria strains in blood form, as well as in mosquito form. Did you ever furnish it in blood form?
A: My laboratory never furnished it in blood form. We only sent out infected mosquitoes. In the case of transmittal of blood there is always the danger that the disease is simultaneously transmitted, and since most people who get malaria treatment also suffer from syphilis, one has to count with that possibility. In the case of transmittal of the mosquitoes, any such simultaneous transmittal of syphilis is impossible, and I guaranteed when sending my mosquitoes that I was only transmitting malaria and that the infection would start and that the strains which I was sending out were actually harmless.
That is why such hospitals turned to my department, who didn't want to treat people suffering from syphilis with malaria, who wanted to treat other patients, and the Wehrmacht had ordered in their service regulations that malaria was to be gotten from me when carrying out their post diphtheria work.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, what the defendant Rose just said can be seen from Rose document 36, which you will find on Rose document book No. 3. I already offered it as Rose Exhibit No. 10 and on pages 51 and 52 of the document book, you will find a directive for the treatment of post diphtheria paralysis with induced malaria. On the preceding pages you will find the scientific foundation for these directives and at the end on page 52 one realizes the correctness of Professor Rose's statement that the furnishing of infected mosquitoes was a routine matter in this department of the Robert Koch Institute. It says there, and I quote the last paragraph:
The department for tropical diseases of the Robert Koch Institute is willing, in accordance with previous arrangement, to place at the disposal of Wehrmacht hospitals, free of charge, infected mosquitoes from their anopheles colony. It would be best to employ a courier for their transportation.
Do you think it is possible, Professor, that the strain Rose mentioned by Professor Viehweg was given a different name in the hospitals somewhere else?
A: That is naturally possible. One can expect anything from a clinical study, they could do anything with a malaria strain.
Q: Did you gain any knowledge about Professor Schillings work and results?
A: Since Schilling concluded his work in Italy I no longer saw a report by him and I never heard any one else who received any reports. The first I heard of it was Viehweg's testimony to the effect that Schilling sent a report to the Reichsarzt [Reich Physician] SS Grawitz, and I had no connection with Mr. Grawitz. We further heard that such reports also were sent to Himmler.
Q: I think you already mentioned, Professor, that you were carrying on correspondence with Professor Schilling, or that you were not at all carrying out any correspondence with Professor Schilling about his work. I did not understand you correctly.
A: No, I had no correspondence with him at all and this was quite understandable because there was no reason to do that. There was no reason for him to discuss his experimental plans with me since even if I did not work on malaria protective vaccination I was one of the most important experimental malaria researchers and under such circumstances one does not carry on any correspondence in this matter. No other malaria researchers abroad or in Germany told me what plans they had nor did I write to them what my current work was. Why of all people would I do that with Professor Schilling?
Q: Weren't you interested in the result of his work?
A: Naturally I found out about the result of his work after it had been concluded, because every scientist writes a paper on his work which is then printed or lectured during a meeting and in this manner one finds out about the result of the work. This is the normal way as it applies to every scientific activity generally. This work of Schilling in Dachau was never published up to this moment and nothing can be seen about it in the files of the Tribunal. Although I am very interested in Schilling's work, I don't know anything about it up to this present time.
Q: Didn't you hear anything from any third parties about Schilling's activity and the activity of his collaborators at Dachau?
A: Only on one occasion did I read an article in the Journal of Tropical Medicine in the year 1944. This was a malaria paper written by an author whose name I do not know and with whose concepts I did not agree. While it is usually stated in the case of any such paper from what clinic or institute it originates or who the Chief is who guarantees the authenticity of the matter stated, no such indication was made in this paper. Since I was rather interested in this rather peculiar conception stated in this article, I wrote to the editor of the paper. I was on the Committee of that periodical and I asked for information. I received an answer that this man was a collaborator of Claus Schilling and was Dr. Ploetner who, as I can see from the documents now, was Schilling's first collaborator. Up to that time I had not known Professor Ploetner's name at all. I had not heard about him because I had no connections to Dachau and for that reason knew neither the name of his first collaborator nor the name of any of his other collaborators.
Q: After you found out from where this work originated didn't you start correspondence with Professor Schilling or Professor Ploetner?
A: When I saw from the reply that this was a collaborator of Schilling I became quite clear about the contents of the work. Well, these were just the old opposition, the old two schools of thought, and there was no purpose in corresponding about it. It was clear from the outset that we would never agree on that subject.
Q: Didn't you recognize from the contents of this paper that it came from the Schilling Institute?
A: Since I didn't know on what Schilling and his collaborators were working with the exception of this general idea about protective vaccinations I couldn't guess it was Schilling from reading the paper. This did not only deal with protective vaccination but was a more general subject.
Q: Mr. President, I have succeeded in having Professor Rose's correspondence with the editor of this magazine. I have obtained it. I offer it as Document 30 — pages 3 and 4 in Document Book III — I offer this as Rose Exhibit No. 34. I have just handed the original to the Secretary General. This shows that it is the original letter from Professor Rose to Professor Dr. Reichnow. And from the files of the Institute the carbon copy of the answer there. I also offer the preceding document in the Document Book, No. 29 as Rose Exhibit No. 33. I beg your pardon, Mr. President, I must change these two exhibit numbers. The original letter Rose Document No. 30 will be Exhibit No. 33, Rose Document 29 will be 34. The last mentioned document is the affidavit of the head of the Institute for Ships and Tropical Diseases, dated 5 February 1947, Professor Dr. Nauck. In the interest of saving time I shall not road this affidavit. It shows that Rose Document No. 30 comes from the files of this Institute and Professor Dr. Nauck made it available to me.
Professor were you ever in Dachau yourself?
A: For the first time in my life in May 1946 as an American prisoner.
Q: You have already said that you yourself worked in the field of experimental malaria research. That is, no doubt, quite generally known. Please tell the Tribunal what you dealt with in this work and how this work was carried out.
A: I should like to refer to Documents 10, 11, and 12. This morning I already explained here the points there which deal with my malaria work. Also I should like to refer to Document No. 25 which also mentions a considerable portion of my malaria work. I don't care to go into that any further here. As far as we working experimentally on experimental subjects we worked exclusively with insane and other sick persons where malaria infection was necessary for therapeutic purposes. This can be seen from the annual reports of the Robert Koch Institute. Indication for malaria treatment was given by some doctor in some hospital and we delivered the malaria or we administered it as the affidavit of Miss Von Falkenhayn describes it. As she describes it it is quite correct.
Q: Now in your lecture you mention an experiment of Volpert's on himself. That was at this second meeting of the consulting physicians. This report is contained in Document of Prosecution No. 922, Prosecution Exhibit 435. That is the document which I have reproduced in my Document Book III for the convenience of the Tribunal and the annual report of this department also speaks of the same experiment. Were experiments carried out in this department by the scientists on themselves and what were these experiments?
A: I have wondered why the Prosecution has submitted this lecture of mine. I don't know what it has to do with Schilling's experiments. I don't know that even today because Prosecution has not explained it — has merely submitted the document. But, since the document has been submitted I have to say what I know about it. During the War in view of the extent of blood transfusions we were interested in the question how long malaria germs remain alive in human blood.
So far up to three weeks had been proved. Now we are looking for the extreme limit. The earlier experiment had been performed on paralytics of the neurological ward of the Virchow hospital. When my assistant Volpert wanted to work in the same way on the blood sample he found that fungi had grown in this blood as foreign body, as contamination. He didn't want to wait three months again and this test was very important because the infectious matter of this sample had been proved after three weeks. On the other hand, however, he considered it too dangerous to use such a sample contaminated with fungi into insane persons and in other not to lose the experiment he injected the stuff into his own thigh. The result was quite successful. He contracted malaria. And that is now a classical experiment because no one else has proved that malaria parasite can live for 90 days outside the human body. Another assistant of mine performed a similar experiment but that such experiments on our own bodies were not more frequent with us was that most of the people had contracted malaria by accident in the laboratory before they could yield to such an experiment and such infections were, of course, used in therapeutic experiments with drugs but those were not malaria experiments.
Q: In the course of my presentation of evidence there has been mentioned repeatedly the Section for Fever Therapy at Pfaffenrode. What kind of an institute was that?
A: In the discussion of my relations with Gildemeister I mentioned the reasons why I and my department wanted to leave the Robert Koch Institute. I suggested to Professor Hippke, at that time, that a Luftwaffe Department for Fever Therapy be established and that personnel and equipment of my institute be transferred there. Professor Hippke accepted this suggestion and the department was set up at Pfaffenrode and other people were assigned there so that I had a total of twenty-five persons, including six doctors and zoologists, and then the work was done on the malaria treatment of the insane. We, of course, also took advantage of this for our malariological work for, although I had always taken a great deal of interest in the therapeutic success with the insane, for me the malaria side of the whole thing was the main thing. That is quite understandable, of course.
Q: Mr. President, I should like to submit another affidavit by Professor Dr. Luxenburger of 24th of March, 1947. This is Rose Document 47 in the supplement, as Exhibit No 35. It deals with the work of the defendant Rose in the field of malaria. I shall not read it in order to save time, but I ask the Tribunal to take notice of its contents.
Your department at Pfaffenrode, at the beginning of April, 1945, fell into the hands of the Americans. What did the occupation authorities feel about your experimental work?
A: By the surprise advance of the Americans in April 1945 Muehlhausen in Thuringia was occupied. Pfaffenrode is near there, and it had to be assumed that the institute was also occupied by the enemy. At the time, I was in Berlin for a lecture on epidemic control. When I came back to Harzburg I tried, during the night, to get into Pfaffenrode in order to give the personnel instructions as to how they were to behave, but I didn't succeed, I could not get through the lines. Therefore, I went back to Harzburg and I asked the Chief of Staff that I should be sent to negotiate as a truce bearer in order to negotiate with the Americans about the surrender of this department. The Chief of Staff refused my offer because the medical chief could not be reached. He was the one who would have had to take the responsibility, and the Chief of staff did not want that because all negotiations with the enemy were strictly forbidden and were subject to severe penalty. I therefore went to the commanding officer of the Group Science and Research, who was at Harzburg at that time too, and explained my situation to him. That was Professor Luxenburger who was a psychiatrist himself. He had more understanding for my worries and he took the responsibility of signing my application.
Q: Mr. President, I should like to refer once more to Rose Document #8. That is in Document Book 1 on pages 27 to 37, Rose Exhibit 29. That is the first affidavit of Professor Luxenburger. I have already read the first part — page 2 of the document, the last paragraph. That is page 25 of the Document book. From there on, Professor Luxenburger explains this trip of Professor Rose to the Americans as a truce bearer. I had really intended to read it, but in order to save time I shall not do so.
I ask you to take judicial notice of it.
Then, how did you carry out the surrender of the department to the Americans?
A: I went through the lines with this paper, south of Rudolstadt, and I established contact with the American infantry. I managed to see the American staff, and finally I was allowed to negotiate with American medical officers. The negotiations lasted three days, because the American authorities had to consult Eisenhower's headquarters, and a consulting psychiatrist was sent out. Finally, a written instruction was agreed upon which I wrote down for Stabsarzt [Staff Surgeon] Blaurock who was my representative at Pfaffenrode. During these negotiations the important thing was that the trained specialized personnel were to be left there to take care of the insane, because I had six hundred patients under my responsibility there. Also the drug supply was to be safeguarded and the special food rates were to be safeguarded which I had obtained for my patients from the Food Ministry. Also, I wanted to free my personnel from the compulsion of refusal which exists for every Wehrmacht member who is captured, and then Wanted to avoid any records being destroyed because there was a general order to destroy military records so that they would not fall into the enemy's hands. There was danger that this order would simply be carried out systematically and all the records of the department would be destroyed. I wanted to prevent that through these negotiations.
Q: Mr. President, the correctness of this statement of the defendant Rose is shown by Rose Documents 31, 32, and 33 in Rose Document Book 3. Document 31 is on page 5. I offer it as Exhibit 36. This is the affidavit of the physician, Dr. Blaurock of 19 February 1947.
Rose document #32 is the following one, which I offer as Rose Exhibit #37. This is another affidavit of Dr. Blaurock, also dated 19 February 1947. This document is on pages 6 and 7 of the Document Book, and Rose Document #33 on pages 8 to 10 I offer as Rose Exhibit #38. This is the certified copy of the surrender instructions which the defendant Rose has just spoken of for his institute of Pfaffenrode.
Did you return to the German side after that?
A: That was very important for me. This action, which I had undertaken on my own responsibility, deviated considerably from all existing regulations. I had acted independently, without orders, and, of course, it was absolutely essential for me to get back to the German side and report what I had done, in order to either have the support of my superiors for my action or to take the consequences, if my action was not approved; and I succeeded in that. I got beck through the lines. I went to Saalow. I reported to Professor Schroeder, and then, subsequently, he gave his approval to my action.
Q: Do you know what happened to your department after you left?
A: I was informed only by my former assistants. I know only what they told me, but I consider them so trustworthy that I can repeat what they said, especially because of the agreement that I had reached in the negotiations. First, the Americans placed this department under special supervision, in order to prevent unauthorized persons interfering. Then, it was repeatedly checked by American medical authorities. Then a group of the CIC came there and looked through the files, and, as a result, issued written instructions to the department to continue in the work.
I also know that an American Army Doctor with the rank of Colonel made a written report after a thorough checking of the institution and that, in this report, he speaks favorably about the institute and about the work and the way the institute was managed. I learned of the contents of this report when, in the winter of 1945, I was for the second time examined by the Intelligence Service. A member of the American Intelligence Service told me about this report.
Q: Mr. President, to support the testimony of the defendant Rose, I should like to submit Rose Document 34 in Rose Document Book 3, page 11-15. I should like to offer it as Exhibit #39. This is an affidavit of Colonel of the Army of the United States, Otto B. Schreuder, of the 13th of March, 1947.
Professor, I believe that there will not be enough time to read it. Perhaps you will give a brief explanation of this English document.
A: This document was originally primarily intended as a hepatitis document. As supplement to the testimony of Colonel Schreuder there is an excerpt which American agencies made of an article about hepatitis epidemica which I wrote in June, 1945, in England; but since the charge of hepatitis epidemica has been dropped I have no interest in going into this part of the affidavit.
I refer to page 11 of the Document Book, which is page 1 of document 34, to numbers 1, 3 and 4 in the affidavit. No. I gives the personal date of the witness. No. 3 describes the visit of Colonel Schreuder to the department at Pfafferode, and No. 4 contains a brief personal statement of colonel Schreuder about my person.
Q: You discussed experimental malaria research as carried on by you; did you also deal with protective vaccination against malaria?
A: I want to say it was the experimental malaria research as carried out by me where I was responsible and had something to say, and the ways and means in which this work was turned over when the enemy came where I was responsible. No records were burned, no patients were sent away, the person in charge of the experiments did not run away but I saw to it that my patients were taken care of decently. I saw to it that my patients were taken care of decently. I saw to it that no document was destroyed carelessly, and I myself went through the lines to see to it, instead of running away. Now I am to be held responsible for what somebody else did, over whom I had not the slightest influence, of whose activity I knew nothing whatever, and who in his entire conduct was the opposite of what I did myself. I would have liked, if I had been able to describe in more detail the way in which I worked, but the Tribunal has limited the time for my defense. I did not work on protective vaccination against malaria. On the basis of work of other researchers I was convinced that that is an insoluble problem, and normally a research worker does not deal with problems which he considers insoluble, and I have recorded this point of view about protective vaccination against malaria in literature, I can point out on the negative side that I have excerpts of everything that I said about malaria at the meetings of consulting physicians, which I have submitted that here. There is not a word about protective vaccination against malaria, and, if I had a man anywhere who conducted experiments about protective vaccination on over a thousand people I would no doubt on one of these many occasions have said a word about it. I hope that my opinion written in the year 1941 will turn up again. It is in the hands of the Military Government, because the records of the session in 29 December of 1941 which was submitted here, came from the same files. In the same filing cabinet is my expert opinion. If they want to find it they can; and then I should like to refer to my Basle lecture of 1944, which has been submitted here, Document 25, which says on page 39, and I quote "The role of drugs in malaria combatting —-" page 39, Document 25, Document Book 2, page 39.
The part played by drugs in the fight against malaria is not exhausted by the possibilities enumerated. Although we do not know of a vaccination effective against malaria, and although it is unlikely that such will be developed, in view of the nature of this pretezoa-infection, the preventive treatment, the so-called 'drug prophlaxis' has already played for some decades, in the fight against malaria a part similar to that played by vaccination in cases of bacteria and virus infections.
That is not the speech of a man who is conducting experiments on a thousand people in a concentration camp on protective vaccination, when he at least knows everything about it, as the Prosecution says.
Q: Now, can you please comment on Professor Schilling's work at Dachau?
A: That is impossible at the moment. I am accused, because of this work, that is true, but the only material which I have on it is Document Book 4, and the testimony of the witness Viehweg. I do not even know the wording of the testimony of Professor Schilling in the Dachau trial, although I asked for a record of the testimony. According to the American newspapers, Schilling prepared a memo about his work which is available to foreign experts, and I have not been able to get it yet either.
The materials available so far are so inadequate from the medical point of view, that I, at least, cannot express any opinion on them, although I am supposed to take the responsibility for then, I can only point out one thing, the witness Viehweg said here that experimental subjects of Schillings died because of the Salvarsan treatment of malaria. I should like to refer to Document Book Rose 3, document 922, Prosecution Exhibit 435, page 30, the lecture by me at the meeting of consulting physicians. I refer to point 2 "Treatment". At the end of this paragraph it says the following:
—the treatment of tertiana with neosalvarsan, which only suppresses the vivex infections but does not cure them parasitologicaly, is also to be rejected.
I can say that was a lecture at a general Wehrmacht meeting where I could only give a recommendation for the Luftwaffe; if my recommendation was accepted, it could be turned into an order, and as a result of this recommendation the treatment of malaria tertiana with salvarsan was prohibited in the Luftwaffe; and now I am to be held responsible, I, as the man who had salvarsan treatment for malaria prohibited, because Schilling had the misfortune when treating malaria patients with salvarsan that some of them died. But I should like once more to express the hope that the prosecution in submitting document Book 4, promised the files of the Dachau trial would be made available here. I am to be held responsible for it. I applied in time to be given the testimony of Schilling to read. I have not seen a single line of it yet. I hope before the end of the trial I will see the records, and then I will perhaps be able to express my responsibility for what is in it.
Q: Well, was Professor Schilling informed about your malaria work?
A: As far as I know he was not, at least I told him nothing. He probably read what I published. I assumed that my special publications were always sent him by the secretary, according to the distribution list. I had a general list of names, malaria works were sent to so and so, etc., but the reports of the Wehrmacht meetings Schilling probably did not read because he did not belong to the Wehrmacht, and my associate, Miss von Falkenhayn who corresponded with him, had express instructions not to tell him anything about our work, so that there would be no gossip between the laboratories, and I acted no differently toward Schilling than toward any other malaria research worker. As the annual reports of the Robert Koch Institute state I, of course, collaborated with quite a number of people, such as Mertens, Koenig and Sabel concerning certain malaria drugs, and of course with these people I discussed the particular part of my work which we were doing in common, and corresponded with them, because we had to collaborate; but of course I didn't tell these people anything about the other matters which my other associates were doing; and in addition to these people there were quite a number who were working on malaria research experimentally, Schulemann, Sivoli and those at the Hamburg Tropical Institute, Hauber, and so forth. I did not exchange views with a single one of these. That is the general custom. If one exchanges opinions with ones closest competitors, there is always the danger that both people who are working on the same thing will get the same idea, and afterwards if they talked about it they reproach each other that one stole the ideas of the other; and if one is a little older and has a certain amount of experience and wants to be on good terms with his colleagues, one knows that the best thing is not to talk about work which is not finished yet, but just about the work which has been completed.
Q: Then your conduct toward Professor Schilling was exactly the some as toward your other colleagues?
A: Yes, exactly the same.
Q: Now, do you feel responsible for the work of Professor Schilling because your department sent Professor Schilling mosquito eggs and a malaria strain?
A: Of course, I take full responsibility for the fact that my personnel sent this material to him. It is out of the question that Miss von Falkenhayn is responsible, that is my responsibility. Of course, I do not take any responsibility as to what another scientist does with mosquito eggs and malaria parasites which I have given to him. My duty and care is limited to giving such, material only to the people, primarily doctors, whom I must assume, according, to customary procedure, will use the material properly and not misuse it. It was the official duty of my department to do so. If for example some Wehrmacht hospital, on the basis of the order of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, wanted malaria for malaria treatment of of diphtheria and asked me for it, gave it to them without any delay. I did not have the task to check whether this hospital had the authority to carry out malaria treatment, I had no supervision over these hospitals. Supervision to see that only a qualified man should carry out malaria treatment in the hospital was up to the chief physician of the hospital, and secondly of the Wehrmacht physician. They had to see to it that the regulations about the correct execution were observed, and how was I supposed to do that as I sent malaria to all sorts of people? How can I control fifty hospitals? The number was even greater, how can I ask what they do with malaria? In the same way, it was not my duty to ask what the use of the mosquito eggs by Professor Schilling; but the duty of the supervision over this work belonged to the people who had given Schilling the assignment and made it possible for him to work.
As far as I know today that was the responsibility of the Reichsarzt SS and Himmler. What immediate agencies were authorized, I do not know. In any case I had no official connections with either of these offices or with Mr. Schilling. That I am not alone in my opinion is shown by the fact that Schilling asked for material from various foreign and German institutes and got it, as Viehweg said here, and he never had any difficulties. Also Schilling had his own mosquito catching detail and had bred his own malaria strains. He was in no way defendant on my strain and the few mosquito eggs he received from my own department. If the fact of having given him such material moans responsibility for their use by him, then all scientific cooperation must stop. Then no one can give anything out of his hands. I have given much more dangerous things than malaria strains, for instance, cholera and plague cultures, only on the basis of application by mail to people. I personally did not know, only on the basis that I knew the institute where they worked and know that it was reliable.
Q: When such requests were made, was it not said for whet purpose the material was needed?
A: No, that is not customary. Usually one merely asks for the material and the material is sent without further inquiry; that is an international custom.
Q: Then could any doctor ask the Robert Koch Institute for plague cultures; is that it?
A: Plague cultures; no. In Germany there are certain legal regulations about plague. There are only a few institutes that are allowed to work with it, and they are known to us.
To legally authorized institutes one, of course, sends them. But, for example, if foreign institutes ask me for plague cultures, as the Robert Koch Institute had the permission to work with plagues and had such cultures, I would have sent a plague culture to a foreign country. In the accompanying letter, I would perhaps have added to the sentence that I assumed the recipient would see to it that the legal regulations in his country were observed, which I would not know. For malaria strains there are no such restrictions, they are distributed internationally without any reservations, and certainly mosquito eggs.
The witness Viehweg said for example that Schilling worked with the Madagascar strain, that was a well known strain in literature. That was bred in Hortlan in England by Colonel James.
Q: Did you yourself ever get malaria strains from abroad?
A: No malaria strains. I always worked with malaria strains which we had bred ourselves, but I know of a number of strains in Germany which must have come from abroad as this is well known in literature. I, myself, get from abroad snails, which carried diseases, ticks, mosquito eggs, worm parasites, infected cats, and plague strains. In all cases they were sent to me without any reservations on the part of the sender. It was my own personal business in each case to get the approval for importing these tings from the authorized Governmental authorities; and there are legal regulations about the importation of disease carriers and dangerous insects which my assistants and I had to observe. But the sender abroad had nothing to do with that.
I had to see to it that I could present the custom's office with approval for introducing these dangerous things in Germany. I assume that is the case everywhere in the world.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I have completed the direct examination of the defendant Rose. I should now like to reserve the right, after the cross-examination, to submit a few more documents to the Tribunal.
WITNESS: I beg your pardon, how about the document Muehlens?
DR. FRITZ: I should like to offer that at the end, Professor, after the cross-examination. I want to end my direct examination now.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may offer the documents either tomorrow morning or at the end of the examination, as he pleases.
MR. HARDY: I don't understand what Your Honor meant by offering documents before cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the defense said he had a few more documents which he would like to offer at some later date and I informed counsel he could offer those documents tomorrow morning or some later date, and I thought possibly counsel had understood when I told him the direct examination would be limited to this afternoon that might also include the offering of documents as exhibits. It did not include those.
He can offer those the first thing tomorrow morning if he desires. Is it understood, counsel?
DR. FRITZ: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(At 1525 hours the Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 24 April 1947.)