1947-04-28, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

SIEGFRIED RUFF — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

THE PRESIDENT: Witness may proceed.

WITNESS: Before the recess I was just describing what reasons led to the experiments about escaping from high altitude. In order to be able to answer all the questions resulting from this problem efficiently, the results would, of course, have to be sufficiently guaranteed. There could not be any question of coincidence or accidental result since, otherwise, the technical developments for the apparatus would be put into false channels. Accidental results would result in directives for the aviators which might be false, and they might lead to accidents, even to fatal accidents. In order to safeguard such results of experiments adequately, it is necessary to carry out experiments on a large enough number of experimental subjects or to repeat the experiments on a smaller number of persons so often that accidental results are eliminated in the results. At our institute, when Weltz suggested to me that the experiments should be carried out in Dachau, there were only five or six experimental subjects available in the persons of my associates and myself, but since several other series of experiments were going on at the same time, these experimental subjects were involved in two or three experiments at the same time in part and were at the limit of their capacities. Moreover, we had just carried out a series of experiments with sudden drop in pressure, and these numerous increases of altitude had made some of us adapt to these heights because, if one carries out numerous ascents in altitude, the body gets used to the altitude. It becomes more resistant to altitude and, of course, such persons can no longer be considered normal subjects. For us in the institute it would, therefore, have been possible only to carry out the experiments through the course of many months; but the task was very urgent. For this reason, I agreed with Professor Weltz suggestion to carry out the second part of the experiments in Dachau.

BY DR. SAUTER:

Q: Witness, I understand that a larger number of experimental subjects were needed for these experiments, but would it not have been easier, perhaps, to take medical students, or soldiers, or other volunteers, who might have been hired for pay?

A: Before the experiments we had repeatedly attempted to get medical students, for example, for experiments. That had not proved itself at all, specially when the experiments lasted for a considerable time. The medical students, in general, could not devote enough time to those experiments and, after two, three or four experiments, they suddenly stopped coming, or some governmental regulation suddenly called them away to other quite different things — to work on the harvest, or to carry out large collections, or something like that. To get soldiers for the experiments was perhaps theoretically possible. In practice, however, it was said: "We do not have enough soldiers to give you experimental subjects for your experiments. The soldiers have other things to do. We cannot let them go for two or three months." To hire volunteers was impossible because in the time of 1942, there was no one in Germany in the age group any more which we needed and in the physical constitution which we needed. All these people were either in the army, or were working at something which, of course, made it impossible for them to be available to us for any length of time.

Q: Now, before I go over to your discussion with Dr. Rascher, I should like to ask the Tribunal to take notice of a document which is in the Document Book Ruff, Supplement 2, Document #20. It will be Exhibit #8. Exhibit #8, Document #20, Supplemental Book 2. This is an affidavit of a Dr. Ing. Rolf Schroedter. This witness was an engineer by profession. From the summer of 1940 on he was a technical officer in the Luftwaffe. That is, during the period of the Dachau high altitude experiments. He had to test the planes and investigate accidents. He is, therefore, a special expert who can evaluate the necessity of the experiments undertaken by Ruff. In the first part of his affidavit, which I shall not read, the witness first describes his own work and the reasons for his being an expert.

On page 2, in the second paragraph, I should like to read some passages:

From the activity as a technical officer, I can give the following facts from my own knowledge about the stage reached in high altitude flying:

During the campaign in France in 1940, the altitude requirements of the aircraft were still comparatively low. In the fall of 1940, however, they grew by leaps and bounds. The formations attempted to out-climb each other to obtain a better attacking position. The altitude possibilities of the planes were fully utilized, and flights were often made to an altitude of 10 to 11 kilometers. New types of aircraft, with higher altitude ranges, were demanded. At this time, most pilots had very little knowledge and experience concerning correct conduct in high altitudes, and accidents were caused by the slightest carelessness or defect. It was of considerable importance that, through a clarification of the problems involved in parachuting from heights of up to 12 kilometers, the men at the front were able to receive essential instructions about conduct while parachuting from aircraft. It could be seen, even at that time, that an increase in speed and altitude would be technically possible in the near future. The Chief of the Messerschmitt-Development Office, at that time, incidental to a tour of the front in Spring 1941, promised only a gradual improvement of the Me 109 (that is, Messerschmitt 109), but he already talked about a great leaps in progress in new types.

In the years 1941-42 the fighter aircraft Me (Messerschmitt) 163 was tried out in action. It was a small single seater rocket plane using liquid fuels which gave a quite extraordinary performance although later, after a long period of development, it gained no great importance in action. The rocket engine was independent of the oxygen from the air and thus altitude had no significance in its performance. The maximum altitude which could be reached had practically no limit except the pilot's ability to endure high altitudes. The climbing speed reached with 170 meters per second, nearly ten times the performance of any other existing aircraft. Altitudes of twelve to fourteen kilometers were reached in less than three minutes climb and in some instances greater altitudes up to 15.5 kilometers were reached if the pilot cut out the engine a few seconds too late. In new aircraft models the demands of high altitude flying were met by installing pressure-cabins. Plans of this kind were made by all firms engaged in the development of new models, especially Junkers, Henschel, Arado, Blohm & Voss. Some series of the fighter types Me 109 which were in action were also equipped with pressure-cabins.

The use of pressure-cabins in action depended on the stage of development of the high altitude engines. The maximum pressure altitude of the engines, that is, the altitude at which the engine still developed its full performance, was continuously increased. For instance, the maximum pressure altitude of the DB 605 was 6 kilometers that of the DB 605 AB was 8.5 kilometers; that of the Juno 213 E was 9 to 11 kilometers. These performances were reached by memos of improved superchargers later with several stages and gear boxes with two to three gears. Furthermore, exhaust turbine drives for the same purpose were developed by Heinkel, Junkers, and BMW with a maximum pressure altitude of 11 to 14 kilometers. The German Research Institute for Air Transport in Adlershof was developing an engine for an altitude of 16 kilometers.

Since the highest altitude a plane can reach is actually some kilometers above the engine's maximum pressure altitude, altitudes of approximately 20 kilometers could be expected in the comparatively near future.

It was always of tire greatest importance in aviation to know how to rescue the crew from any given altitude. If altitudes of approximately 11 to 12 kilometers are exceeded, the danger for the crew increases tremendously and with it the importance of corresponding safety and rescue devices. In 1941 the accelerated development of high altitude flying surpassed without doubt the findings of aviation medicine, while normally aviation medicine should be far ahead of technics, so that the planning and construction of new types of aircraft can be based upon this medical knowledge.

This affidavit in essence confirms what the defendant has already said and is sworn to before the competent authorities. I ask you to take judicial notice of the entire contents.

BY DR. SAUTER:

Q: Now, Dr. Ruff, I come now to your talks with Dr. Rascher. After you had decided in principle to carry out experiments in Dachau, there was a conference between you, Weltz, and Rascher, in Munich. What was discussed, and what was agreed upon on this occasion?

A: Dr. Romberg and I went to Munich to see Prof. Weltz. We met at his institute; and on this occasion Dr. Rascher was also present. He was introduced to us. We discussed the experiments which we intended to carry out in Dachau. Rascher on this occasion showed us a letter from Himmler, which showed that he was authorized to perform high altitude experiments in Dachau, and that for this purpose criminals would be made available, and that they would be given an opportunity to volunteer. Following these experiments they were to be given some lightening of their punishment in some form.

Q: This was the first time you saw Rascher?

A: Yes, this was the first time I saw Rascher. He was introduced to us, both to Romberg and to myself.

Romberg did not know him then either.

Q: He was a Stabsarzt [Staff Surgeon] in the Luftwaffe?

A: He was an Oberarzt [Senior Physician], or a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe.

Q: What impression did Dr. Rascher make on you?

A: He was at that time an Oberarzt or a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe. He had an assured but obliging and correct appearance. During the conversation with him at this discussion and on the following, he showed a good degree of knowledge in all medical fields. He told us about his work for early diagnosis of cancer. He also told of the procedure which he had developed for selection and testing of range finders for anti-aircraft artillery. He said that he had received the War Merit Cross, Second Class, for this work. He told about his surgical training, and during the discussion of the experiments for rescue from high altitude, he showed in all questions in the field of aviation medicine which came up during this discussion a great deal of understanding and good insight. He gave no occasion for any distrust of his character.

What Hippke had months before given Rascher permission for experiments on prisoners gave no cause for misgivings in this respect. Hippke as medical chief Knew Rascher. He had an opportunity to consult the personal files and to see what official and personality characteristics Rascher had. It was a matter of course for me that the medical chief would not ask me to work with a man if he had any objections to this man's qualifications as to character or personality. Moreover, Rascher knew Prof. Weltz. He worked at Prof. Weltz's institute in Munich; and this again could not give me the impression that Weltz would offer me for collaboration a man whom he himself considered unreliable in any way.

Q: Witness, why was another doctor called in; and if another doctor was necessary, why didn't you take another doctor from your institute in Berlin?

Why did you take Dr. Rascher?

A: The approval for the carrying out of high altitude experiments at Dachau had been given to Dr. Rascher by Himmler apparently on the basis of some connections which he had with the SS, which I did not know about at that time. He could not very well be eliminated since he was the one for whom Himmler had given the permission. A second doctor was desirable in carrying out these experiments. Consequently, it was a matter of course to me that Rascher would have to be the second doctor. Moreover, he was a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe and, so to speak, an expert in our field. Taking Rascher into the experiments had been agreed upon in the beginning in a discussion with Dr. Weltz. We had agreed on collaboration between Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher, between the Weltz institute and my institute. Hippke, too, had from the very beginning intended this collaboration. For months beforehand he had given Rascher approval for the execution of such experiments. Consequently, as the situation was in my opinion, the only person to be considered as a second doctor was Rascher.

Q: Now, to get into the camp which was hermetically sealed to the outside world, you had to have some permission from some SS authorities: With whom did you negociate and what was agreed upon and what directives did you receive?

A: In the discussion in the Weltz institute, at which Prof. Weltz, Dr. Romberg, Dr. Rascher and I participated, it was agreed that—I believe it was on the next day—we would go together to the Reichsfuehrung [Reich Leadership] SS in Munich; there we would settle a few formalities; and after that we would go out to the concentration camp Dachau, in order to discuss the experiments with the camp commandant. On the next day we visited the Reichsfuehrung SS briefly in Munich. There the questions of the pass and the approval to enter the camp were discussed, since passes to enter the camp were not given by the camp commandant but only by the Reichsfuehrung SS, and after that we went in a car of the Reichsfuehrung SS out to the Dachau camp.

There when we met the camp commandant and discussed with him the experiments. He asked about their dangerousness. We told him that so far as it was humanely possible to judge one would not have to expect deaths, or any other damage. Since he had no doubt been oriented beforehand about these experiments, he said that he would give us experimental subjects, such as we needed for our experiments; that he would, no doubt, be able to give us a large enough number, and that he would do whatever was necessary. We discussed with him the question of the quarters as to the experimental subjects, and said that during that time they should not be allowed to work; that they had to have good constant observation, and to have medical observation. We inquired about the food for the camp inmates in general at that time, and we demanded that the experimental subjects should be given additional rations, such as are given to every member of the flying crews. Then we discussed the quality of the experimental subjects, and the camp commandant also told us that these people were professional criminals. Of course, that they were to be given an opportunity to volunteer for these experiments, and that Himmler would, no doubt, pardon these people after the experiments, or give them some other advantage.

Q: Dr. Ruff, when you spoke of these subjects, you have repeatedly mentioned the question of the volunteering of the experimental subjects. You have told us that in all of these discussions you always demanded that these people had to be volunteers. Why, did you at that time in 1942, lay so much stress on the fact these experimental subjects were to be volunteers. Was not that a matter of course?

A: As I already described, from 1934 on I worked almost exclusively on experiments, and the great majority of these experiments were on human beings. Thereby thousands of experiments were carried out, and for all of these experiments only volunteers were used on principle. The majority of these experiments were experiments by my assistant and myself on our own persons. This was a matter of course on the one hand. On the other hand, however, in very many of these earlier tests for reasons of experiments it was absolutely essential that the subjects had to be volunteers.

If, for example, one carried out experiments by infecting the subject with some infectious disease, then after the infection the course of the experiment with the disease is completely independent of the experimental subject himself, and the experiment, or the disease takes its course, which can of course, be influenced by the person in charge of the experiment by therapeutic measures, but it takes its course independent of the will of the experimental subject.

In experiments such as we carried out in our institute, and such as were carried out in Dachau, the person in charge of the experiment is dependent on the good will and cooperation of the experimental subject. If it is not possible to interest the experimental subject in the experiment, it is quite impossible to get useful results. The individual values of the experiment differ so strikingly, that it is not possible to get a clear view of the actual facts. In the case of the experiments such as were carried out in Dachau, experiments for rescue from high altitudes, the experimental subject after having overcome the altitude sickness, as a sign that he was completely capable of acting again, had to pull the ripcord of the parachute. Whether he was able to do so, or not, could not be decided by the person in charge of the experiment, because it was part of the experiment that the subject carry out an order given before the experiment, after having overcome the altitude sickness. Just as a parachutist must when he jumps out at high altitude, as soon as he comes to again, when he wakes up from unconsciousness, he must pull the ripcord to open the parachute.

Q: Well, then, you came to Dachau, and went into the camp. Had you ever seen a concentration camp before that?

A: No, that was the first time I was in a concentration camp.

Q: What did you see of the installations in the concentration camp, and, especially of abuses prevailing in the camp, or crimes committed there, or things that we keep hearing about here?

A: After the talk with the camp commandant, which I have just described took place in his office, we went into the camp proper to look at the place where the low pressure chamber was to be accommodated, and then went to discuss again the spot and the things necessary to manipulate the low pressure chambers. The way to this place, we had to pass the gate, and went through a big open space, which had barracks on two sides, and the experimental subjects were to be housed in one of these barracks. We looked at the rooms, and in this barrack, or the one that connects to it, I am not certain any more, was the hospital of the camp. We also saw the rooms at this hospital. We saw that the medical installations were not only very clean and orderly, but also were considerably better in quality than the facilities which a small district hospital in Germany had, for example. Whether the quantity of facilities, that is, the fact whether the facilities were big enough for the number of inmates of the concentration camp I could not judge at the time, and I can not judge today. Since I don't know how many inmates the camp had, the whole camp of which we saw only a very small part was clean and in good order. We saw a shelter in one of the blocks which was also clean like a military barracks. We also saw a washroom at the disposal of the men which corresponded to the demands of hygiene in all respects. That is more or less what we saw at the concentration camp on this first visit. We, of course, saw nothing of crimes, or of anything like that.

Q: In these discussions with the SS officer of the Reichsfuehrung SS, which you mentioned when you talked to the camp commandant at Dachau, did you hear anything from any other source as to why people were sent to the concentration camp, and what classes of prisoners were there?

A: We knew at that time that in the concentration camps there were two types of prisoners. We knew that on the one hand there were criminals, and we knew that on the other hand there were political prisoners. About other differentiations we knew nothing. On the visit to Dachau some other categories were mentioned to us, which I don't remember today.

Q: Did you learn at the time, you personally, Dr. Ruff, how the people came to the concentration camp. Whether it was by police order, or what facts or orders assigned people to the concentration camps?

A: It was known at that time, as I say, that there were criminals in the concentration camps, and it was also known that these were so-called "Sicherheitsverwahrte," people, under security custody, but there were also criminals who had not yet paid the penalty which was dictated by the Court.

These criminals, the "Sicherheitsverwahrten" [security detainees] and part of the prisoners and penitentiary inmates, as we know from a newspaper report, had been transferred to the concentration camps at the beginning of the war. As far as I can recall the newspaper said that they would be used for work in the war effort. How political prisoners got into a concentration camp was not known to me in detail. It was unknown to many people at that time, whether it was merely on the basis of a police order or decision of the court, or both, that was not clear, and as far as I can see things now, there were probably various ways which these people came into the concentration camps.

Q: Dr. Ruff, a little while ago you said that there were professional criminals in Dachau and then you said that you were told that they were "Sicherheitsverwahrte-Verbrecher", do you know what that term meant, what does it mean to you professional criminals and "Sicherheitsverwahrte-Verbrecher"?

A: In broad outline it was no doubt known that every one know? what professional criminals meant and also what "Sicherheitsverwahrte" meant, then, and now I understand by professional criminals, that these criminals who have been repeatedly convicted, who have served several sentences, and now in their last conviction are given a certain term to serve and so called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" is pronounced. Under this term I understood that these people, after serving their sentences proper, are not freed but remain under supervision, since the Court does not feel that it can take the responsibility of releasing these professional criminals into society.

Q: And until you had this talk with the SS officer and the Commandant at Dachau, at this time, did you yourself see the prisoners in Dachau, and if so, what clothing did they wear and what insignia?

A: When we visited the camp, we saw very few prisoners, only individual ones. We were told that the prisoners were working. The concentration camp Dachau has a large bread factory, a porcelain factory a big herb garden for medical herbs and spices, and also big agricultural concerns, and more or less all inmates of the camp were used for work in these various enterprises. The prisoners whom we saw in the camp were the striped suit and they had insignia on their clothing. We were told what the insignia meant, that a green triangle meant a criminal, that a red triangle meant a political prisoner.

Q: On the basis of these agreements and discussions which you have described, Dr. Ruff, the low pressure chamber, I believe it was in February, 1942, I believe was sent from Berlin to Dachau, who gave the order for this?

A: Well the DVL, the German Research Association, for Aviation I gave the order for this transport. I asked the motor pool to give us a driver for the transport of the chamber.

Q: Did the low pressure chamber go directly from Berlin to Dachau or was it first sent to Munich?

A: Since the transport of the low pressure chamber was on the autobahn the chamber was first sent to Munich and since this was a Luftwaffe vehicle, it was to be turned over to a member of the Luftwaffe. Rascher was not in Dachau at this time. He was in Munich or in Schongau. If the driver had gone directly from Berlin to Dachau they might have arrived at an inconvenient time, perhaps in the evening, and would have had to find some responsible person to whom they could give the keys and the papers. They could not go into the camp proper since they had to have passes issued to them personally for that purpose which could not be issued by the Camp Commandant at Dachau but only by the Reichsfuehrer SS. In the discussion of all of these minor questions, when we visited the camp Commandant at Dachau he finally asked us whether the driver knew at all what kind of experiments were going to be carried out, and we said, of course, no, and then he said he wished that the chamber would be turned ever to Rascher in Munich, since otherwise the drivers might spread rumors that inmates of the concentration camps were being selected for service in the Luftwaffe.

For that reason the chamber went first to Munich and was turned over to Professor Weltz there and he turned it over to Rascher.

Q: Witness, you once signed an affidavit, 18 October, 1946, which is in document book 2 on page 46, document 437, exhibit 42. In this affidavit your statements were formulated to this effect and I quote:

That is the low pressure chamber was taken to Dachau, I beg you pardon, it was taken to Munich, instead of directly to Dachau, so that the drivers would not find out what the final destination was.

Is this statement as it is formulated here, connected with what you have just described, the order of the Commandant at Dachau?

A: I have already said that in order to avoid rumors to the effect that concentration camp inmates were already being selected for the German Luftwaffe, the camp Commandant demanded that the chamber be turned over in Munich.

Q: This low pressure chamber came to Munich overland and then to Dachau, who then issued the travel orders for this trip and who supplied the fuel?

A: The travel orders for this trip, since it was a military vehicle were given by a military authority at our airfield. The DVL, the experimental station for aviation, as a civilian agency, could not issue such orders and give such approval. The Luftwaffe agency at the air field filled out the travel orders after consulting the medical inspectorate, that is Hippke, since at this time it was already extremely difficult to get approval for such a long trip for which Diesel oil was necessary as fuel. Diesel oil was almost exclusively reserved for submarines and I believe this trip of the low pressure chamber under its own power was, as far as I can recall, the last major trip of such low pressure chamber under it's own power. Later it had to be taken by railroad.

Q: Then later did you discuss anything with any one about the quality of the experimental subjects, or was nothing more said about that?

A: The statement about the quality of the experimental subjects, that is that they would be professional criminals, that they would be allowed to volunteer, and that they would get some reward of some sort for participation in the experiments, was give first by Professor Weltz, and second, confirmed by Hippke, and, third by Rascher, and fourth, by the Camp Commandant.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one thirty.

(The Tribunal adjourned for the noon recess)