1947-05-27, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 27 May 1947, 1015, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, before I start the continuation of cross examination I have one problem to take up with the Tribunal. Defense counsel for the defendant Becker-Freyseng has requested that the witness Dr. Eugen Haagen be called before this Tribunal. They have also requested that the case of Becker-Freyseng, Schaefer, and Beiglboeck be completed before Dr. Haagen is called to the stand as a witness in behalf of Becker-Freyseng in as much as they do not want to interrupt the continuity of the sea water evidence. Prosecution is in agreeance with that and, if it meets the approval of the Tribunal, it is suggested that the case of Becker-Freyseng be completed, then the case of the defendant Schaefer, and the defendant Beiglboeck, and then the witness Haagen be called before this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal adopts the suggestion of counsel and that procedure will be followed.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BECKER-FREYSENG — Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Doctor, during the course of your direct examination I understood you to say that when you assumed your duties as assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in 1941 that one of your major tasks was the remodeling of low pressure chambers, in as much as low pressure chambers existent in Germany at that time did not meet modern requirements. Is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Can you kindly tell us whom you engaged to manufacture a new low pressure chamber?
A: I never engaged anyone, but the building of the new low pressure chambers was started by my departmental chief or by whoever has signed that order. A firm was entrusted with that task, Zeuzen at Frankfurt on the Main.
Q: How many low pressure chambers did you order at that time?
A: During my direct examination I explained that in 1941 we were not concerned with ordering new low pressure chambers but with the modernization of those chambers which were already available. I estimate that at that time we had twenty to twenty-five chambers that had to be remodeled that way. During the course of the war we had another few chambers and at the end of the war there were about thirty to thirty-five chambers.
Q: Then did the manufacture or reconstruction of each chamber take place in this factory in Frankfurt?
A: No, the Frankfurt factory sent their engineers to the place where the low pressure chambers were located, because they were firmly built into the ground. They were so-called immovable chambers and the firm sent a number of men to whatever place the low pressure chamber was located.
Q: Were there any other manufacturers of low pressure chambers other than at the Frankfurt plant?
A: No.
Q: What I am driving at, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, is that I recall that when Ruff needed spare parts for his low pressure chamber it seems to me that he sent his representative to Cologne to secure the spare parts.
Now, who in Cologne would produce or manufacture spare parts for low pressure chambers, or were such parts available in any hardware store, for instance?
A: From my own knowledge I cannot say with what spare parts we were concerned. I am not informed about the particulars in this matter. I do know, however, that the firm Leibold in Cologne manufactured pumps. I assume that when procuring spare parts from Cologne Dr. Ruff turned to the firm Leibold. However, I know no particulars about that.
Q: Now, as I understand it from other conversations with people at Heidelberg, and during your testimony here, that you are decidedly an expert in the field of high altitude research, and I noticed that you are particularly familiar with the construction of low pressure chambers. Now, could you tell me just what particular equipment might go out of order in connection with pumps in a low pressure chamber? For instance, does a pump have anything to do with the barometer, electrocardiogram, realizing fully, doctor, that I am not familiar at all with the mechanics of a low pressure chamber and I am anxious to determine just what might go out of order in connection with a pump so that it would have to be replaced?
A: Well, I may repeat that I don't know in detail what actually went out of order.
Q: Barometer? Would a broken barometer have any connection with pump equipment?
A: I can't determine any direct connection between these two matters.
Q: What is the purpose of the barometer on a low pressure chamber?
A: The barometer serves to determine the exact altitude.
Q: What causes the barometer to rise and fall?
A: The rise and fall of the mercury is caused by the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber.
Q: And what causes the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber?
A: The pumps letting in the air or pumping it out again.
Q: And then would it be possible that the manufacturer in Cologne wherein Dr. Ruff attempted to secure spare parts for his pumps — that barometers for low pressure chambers could be obtained from that source?
A: I wouldn't assume that, because the firm manufacturing such barometers was the firm Fuess in Berlin. I know of no firm for barometers in Cologne.
Q: Now, doctor, in a low pressure chamber can you tell us in the connection with the controls of a low pressure chamber just how far the various barometers and other dials are from one another. That is, relatively how far would the electrocardiogram be from the control and the barometers? Can you attempt to describe to this Tribunal just what the picture is of the equipment which is on a low pressure chamber?
A: I must say the following in that connection. The installation of the electrocardiograph was a part of the low pressure chamber. However the electrocardiograph was used for the low pressure chamber, it could be placed at various parts, either inside or outside the chamber. Since I was not personally present during these experiments, I cannot give you any description which would correspond to the truth. In other words, how the various instruments were placed in relation to one another.
Q: Could you, for instance, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, conduct an experiment alone? In other words, if you were conducting an experiment and using the electrocardiogram, could you conduct the experiment and manipulate the controls without any assistance?
A: I would have to have one technical assistant or an engineer, and I think that then I would be able to perform a normal experiment. At any rate, I did perform numerous such experiments.
Q: Have you ever performed experiments in the course of your work in the field of high altitude — that is, either prior to the end of the ear or at the Aero Medical Center in Heidelberg — and used the electrocardiograph?
A: Yes. I think that was before the war. I may draw your attention to one thing, however. From the description which Dr. Romberg gave here, about the way how the electrocardiograph he was using worked, it became evident to me that this was a special model not used by us in our institute. This was an instrument where the cardiac output could be observed through a tube.
Q: Just what is the express purpose, Doctor — I want to get your definition of the express purpose of an electrocardiograph? What does it tell us?
A: The purpose of an electrocardiograph is to register the electrical currents produced through the work of the heart.
Q: Can you tell from the study of the electrocardiograph whether or not a person in a low pressure chamber, undergoing an experiment, is in danger?
A: As I already said before, I never performed any experiments, where we could observe danger for our experimental subjects by means of the electrocardiograph. We used other methods in order to make that observation. After what I heard here from Dr. Romberg on the witness stand, I know, or I can confirm, that by means of the electrocardiograph one is in a position to carry out such an examination.
Q: Well, prior to the war — to the end of the war, pardon me, what was the highest altitude that any of your experiments had attained? Did you go up to 20,000 meters in your experiments ever, prior to the end of the war?
A: I personally was engaged in other experiments and my highest altitude was only 15 kilometers.
Q: Now, Doctor, these low pressure chambers, they were under the control of the referent, is that correct, for Aviation Medicine?
A: Yes, after they were taken over by us.
Q: Now, that was in 1941? The low pressure chambers were taken over by your office; that is, the office of Anthony?
A: Now, this is not exactly right. That was already earlier. The low pressure chambers which had been taken over by the Medical Inspectorate, and that also held true in peace, were handled by the referat for Aviation Medicine.
Q: Did you have any further connection or authority over the allocation of the low pressure chamber after you had once assigned it to a particular institute?
A: No.
Q: Then, in other words, when you assigned a low pressure chamber to, say, Ruff's Institute, to Institute Weltz, or to the institute at Rechlin, where Benzinger was the commanding officer, after the assignment then you had no further ado with that low pressure chamber? Is that it?
A: No.
Q: Suppose Dr. Ruff wanted to send the low pressure chamber to Rechlin? Benzinger called him on the telephone and said: "Dr. Ruff, I'd like to use your low pressure chamber for two or three weeks." Could Dr. Ruff transfer the low pressure chamber to the Institute at Rechlin without superior orders?
A: That is something different again. The institutes and the other smaller research stations had their own low pressure chambers which were firmly installed. In Dr. Ruff's case we are concerned with a very special type of chamber, a motorized mobile chamber. The German Luftwaffe only had four such mobile motorized chambers. Dr. Ruff explained here, in detail, that the low pressure chamber which was at his disposal for some time had been furnished to him on the basis of a very special approval by the Medical Inspector Professor Hippke. It was naturally furnished to him and to his institute and had he, for instance, wanted to transport this chamber to Dr. Benzinger at Rechlin he would have had to ask for permission for that from Professor Hippke.
Q: And, of course, professor Hippke would then consult with you inasmuch as you were his expert on low pressure chambers?
A: Yes, normally that would have to be assumed.
Q: Well, did he consult with you when Ruff asked to transfer the low pressure chamber to Dachau?
A: No, he didn't do that.
Q: That's rather unusual, isn't it?
A: It wasn't unusual in that case because this chamber had not yet been taken over by the Medical Inspectorate officially. Dr. Ruff had explained, and I can only repeat it, that this chamber had been sent to the German Experimental Institute for Aviation from the firm Zeuzen in order to be equipped there with their latest equipment, such as breathing and communication equipment, and I as the competent referent for these questions, took over this chamber at the end of July or during the first days of August, 1942, in collaboration with a captain of the Medical Corps, Dr. Ernst Kellersmann, who confirmed this fact through an affidavit which Dr. Ruff has already submitted.
Q: Well then, if I understand you correctly, Doctor, the mobile low pressure chamber at Ruff's institute at Berlin-Adlershof was not under the supervision of the Medical Inspectorate until July, 1942?
Is that correct?
A: At any rate, not under the supervision of the referat Aviation Medicine. After what I heard here, the Medical Inspector had to send the approval for the transfer of these chambers from Berlin to Munich.
Q: Well now, when did you become — on what date — the day and month — did you become Assistant Referent in the referat for Aviation Medicine?
A: I believe that was the 8th of August, 1941.
Q: And you then assumed, as one of your more important tasks, this low pressure chamber business, is that right?
A: I believe I explained it in detail that I considered one of my main tasks to be the modernization of the low pressure chambers.
Q: Then, every low pressure chamber in the Luftwaffe was of interest to you, was it not?
A: I believe that one word was lost during the interpretation and it was the word "ortsfest", immobile.
Q: Well then, in other words, you had nothing to do with the mobile low pressure chambers? No jurisdiction over those whatsoever?
A: In that connection I have to tell you the following: the immobile low pressure chambers had all been built before the war, and for that reason were built in correspondence to the research regulations as they prevailed before the war as to their resistance to high altitude. During his inspection in the year 1941 Dr. Ruff had found out that these old immobile low pressure chambers no longer sufficed for modern requirements. The modernizing of these immobile low pressure chambers became my main task. The mobile low pressure chambers on the other hand were all built during the beginning of the War. For that reason they all complied with these requirements I just mentioned, so that it was no longer necessary to remodel these mobile low pressure chambers. In addition, the low pressure chambers were all subordinated to the air fleet, were omitted by the air fleet in order to examine and instruct the pilots of the various flying units. From the moment when by order of the Medical Inspectorate I took over this low pressure chamber, together with Captain Kellersmann, this low pressure chamber had also been subordinated to an air fleet, and after a short stay in the Alps for research purposes was sent for lecture purposes to the Troops.
Q: Well, then in summation, Doctor, after August 1941 you had jurisdiction over the permanent low pressure chambers, but did not have any authority over the mobile low pressure chambers and would not have jurisdiction in any manner whatsoever over the low pressure chamber used at Dachau until July 1942, but that prior to that time the jurisdiction over that mobile chamber was purely in the hands of Ruff and Hippke, is that correct?
A: This entails such an enormous amount of individual questions that I cannot possibly answer it with just one answer.
Q: You can answer just one of them; first of all I will ask them individually; after August 1941 you were assigned the task of remodeling low pressure chambers for the Luftwaffe, is that correct?
A: Yes, this task was assigned to me.
Q: That duty assignment did not include work on mobile low pressure chambers?
A: No, not on motorized low pressure chambers.
Q: When was the first time that you had anything to do with low pressure chambers, that is mobile low pressure chambers?
A: Do you mean when I for the first time had anything to do with mobile low pressure?
Q: At any rate when did you have any jurisdiction over —
— when did you have any authority as referent in the referat over these mobile low pressure chambers?
A: You mean the mobile ones don't you?
Q: The mobile?
Q: As far as I remember that was approximately at the end of July 1942. When, in collaboration with the already mentioned Captain Kellersmann, I took over the low pressure convoy for Dr. Ruff.
Q: Alright, then you had jurisdiction over the mobile low pressure chambers — pardon me. We will qualify it, Doctor — you had jurisdiction over the single mobile low pressure chamber used at Dachau prior to July 1942?
A: I can only tell you what I heard here. I heard that Dr. Ruff obtained the approval for the use of these chambers from Professor Hippke. In other words, at that time he didn't consider himself competent enough to send this chamber to Dachau on his own initiative, but obtained Hippke's approval for that.
Q: Then Ruff and Hippke had jurisdiction over the low pressure chamber and consider it in the same light as an orphan child?
A: It was no orphan child. I would designate this circumstance as the birth of the child.
Q: Alright. We will go on, Doctor. In connection with your testimony concerning research assignments within the Luftwaffe, whenever a research assignment order was issued, and at this point I will not quibble with you about the originator of the orders, that is the person with authority to give the orders, but when a research assignment was issued, who supplied the funds to carry out that assignment?
A: The funds were supplied by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, and after the 1st of April 1944 that was done by the Office of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.
Q: Didn't your chief have anything to do with the funds at all?
A: The Referat of Aviation Medicine had nothing to do with the funds. There was a Referat Budget with its own administration staff, and it was only the task of the Referent for Aviation Medicine to solve the question in cooperation with the Budget Referent whether there was anything against the reason given for any research work, and the Budget Referent then confirmed his approval by making a sign on the original research assignment to that effect.
Q: Now, just a moment, Doctor, it is my understanding that all research assignments in the field of Aviation Medicine had to pass through the Referat for Aviation Medicine Office after May 1944, and prior to that time the Office of Anthony who approved—
A: May I interrupt you shortly. I think you were saying May 1944, were you?
Q: Yes. Now who approved the allocation of funds for the particular research which was ordered by the Chief of the Medical Services or by your office?
A: In that connection I may point out to you that my Referat did not order the furnishing of these funds, but only suggested them. The approval for such funds was reserved for the Medical Chief himself.
Q: Now, we are getting down to something, Doctor. Then after it was determined that a research assignment should be made in the field of Aviation Medicine, the approval for the assignment would be made by your office, is that correct, because Professor Shroeder certainly couldn't study all these things. He was a busy man. You would have to study the assignment and determine whether or not it was necessary at this time, inasmuch as you had a lack of manpower and a war going on; now, the research assignment must have been approved in the Referat for Aviation Medicine wasn't it?
A: I don't quite understand what you said. Did you say it was my task to approve all research assignments.
Q: Who approved the research assignment wherein it was necessary to allocate funds to carry it out, who approved those?
A: The approval for any research assignment was reserved for the Medical Chief and before for the Medical Inspector. It was the task of the Referat to furnish the necessary data in order to make that decision.
Q: In other words, the Referat would suggest what decision should be made? Now, in your position as Referat after May 1944 did you have the power to pay sums of money for experimental purposes?
A: In my capacity as Referat with the Chief of Medical Services I did not have such authority.
Q: Did your Chief, that is Professor Schroeder, know of what you were doing, did he have any idea of what your duties were?
A: I would assume that.
Q: He tells me that you had the power of Attorney, nevertheless, to pay sums of money for experimental purposes?
A: Can you tell me about the connection in which Professor Schroeder made that statement. I think there must be an error. Not a single referent could place his signature to a grant of funds. That could only be done by the Chief of the Medical Services for any annual grants.
Q: Then it is your contention that Professor Schroeder did not know his job; is that it?
A: I would rather believe that there must have been some other misunderstanding during your conversation with Professor Schroeder. I am sure that Professor Schroeder was very well versed with his task and no error could have been possible.
Q: Well, now, in these research assignments, Doctor, when did you first report to Professor Rostock concerning research assignments of the Luftwaffe?
A: I remember one time, that was in the summer of 1944, when we sent a list of all research assignments to Professor Rostock's office. I cannot give you the exact date, it could either have been in July or August 1944.
Q: Why did you send reports to Rostock's office?
A: If I remember correctly, I was ordered to do so by my medical chief, Professor Schroeder. I don't believe there was a request made by Rostock's office, however, I can no longer tell with certainty.
Q: Well, now, you received an order from your medical chief to send reports to Rostock in 1944; is that correct?
A: I probably did not get this order personally from my medical chief, but I got it from my departmental chief, however, in the final analysis it did come from him.
Q: Did you understand at that time that Rostock's position was chief of science and research of the Reichs Commissar for Health and Sanitation under Dr. Brandt?
A: I think that I knew that at that time.
Q: How often did you send reports to Rostock?
A: Such collective reports, as the report concerning the 97 research assignments, was only sent out once as far as I remember by the office of the chief of the Medical Services. Later on copies of newly issued research assignments were sent to Professor Rostock's office.
Q: Then you sent a collective report for the first time to Rostock in 1944 and thereafter you sent him a copy of each research order; is that right?
A: Yes, he received a copy of those research assignments issued later. There were only very, very few, however.
Q: Did you send him a report on the sea-water experiments?
A: I am sure that I did not, because that was no research assignment.
Q: Did Rostock have any reason to know about the sea-water experiments?
A: I know of no such reasons.
Q: Were you ever at a meeting concerning the sea-water experiments and at such meeting a representative of Rostock was present?
A: It is possible that at the last meeting that took place I think at the end of September 1944 at the Flakturm at the Zoo, when Professor Beiglboeck was speaking about the cause and the results of experiments, a representative of Professor Rostock was present. This is quite possible. I know for certain, however, that Professor Rostock was not personally present.
Q: Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Anthony, sent reports to Rostock?
A: No, I know nothing of that.
Q: You don't exclude the possibility, however?
A: It is highly impossible because Rostock's office came into appearance only in the year of 1944.
Q: It came into appearance in January of 1943, didn't it, Doctor, actively?
A: I cannot say that. It was only in the summer of 1944 that I learned of the office of Rostock.
Q: Looking at the evidence here, we see the authority for the status of the office was given in 1943?
A: Yes, I believe I remember having heard of here, but it always takes some time before any such office starts working.
Q: It takes a whole year?
A: Well, I can only say that from my point of view and as far as I could see, I only know of Rostock's office in the year of 1944.
Q: Well, now these research assignments which were ordered by the chief of the medical service or by the medical inspectorate, accompanying the assignment a certain amount of money was allocated; what did you direct or what did the Medical Inspectorate direct the researchers to do in the way of reporting? Did you have some check on just what was happening to your money,
A: Yes.
Q: How often did you request the particular scientist; how often did you require reports from the particular scientist?
A: Are you now speaking about reports regarding the research or regarding the use of the money?
Q: Regarding the use of the money.
A: The accounts regarding the money were made at the end of the budget year after the money had been used. Only such amount of money was distributed as was expected to be used during the course of one year.
Q: How often did you require them to report on the results of their research?
A: Most of the research men were asked to send half yearly reports, however this was not done in every case because considering the situation at that time there may not have been anything to report every half year. Enough confidence was placed in the various research workers and it was assumed that they would report any way had they found anything worth while, however, it was stated on the research assignments that they were requested to send in reports every half year?
Q: Doctor, when did you first hear of the high altitude experiments at Dachau?
A: That was when Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg showed their film or rather intended to show their film at General Field Marshall Milch's office.
Q: Did you see the film?
A: No.
Q: Were you present?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who was there?
A: I know it now from the documents submitted here.
Q: Did you ever talk to Dr. Benzinger about it afterwards?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether or not he saw the film?
A: According to the report by Dr. Romberg, which was submitted here, I assume that he saw it. I cannot say for certain.
Q: Did you hear any repercussions as a result of the showing of that film?
A: Repercussions, I know of none.
Q: Who informed you that there was to be a meeting in the R.L.M., wherein a motion picture film was to be shown concerning high altitude research?
A: During my direct examination I explained that a telephone call was made that morning, which I received in the referat that morning to the effect that either Professor Kalk or his assistant Dr. Bruehl were asking whether we knew any thing about a film and a lecture regarding high altitude experiments, which was to be shown in the Reichs Ministry for aviation.
Q: Then Professor Kalk informed you; is that it?
A: No I have just said what Professor Kalk told to me, he said no more than that because that happened before the film was shown and at that time he of course knew none of the details. I can't say therefore it was Professor Kalk or Dr. Bruehl.
Q: I understand that this film in this meeting was supposed to be a secret matter; was it not?
A: I know nothing of that and the only knowledge I have comes from the documents submitted here.
Q: Were you usually informed of all secret matters?
A: It depended whether I had to know them or not. Naturally I learned about secret matters during the war. I certainly did not learn of all secret matters.
Q: Did you learn of all secret matters in the field of aviation medicine?
A: Certainly not, because I found out about a number of them after the war, which I did not know before.
Q: Did you learn of all matters in the field of aviation medicine after the time you became referent for aviation medicine?
A: I cannot really answer this question because I don't know what secret matters existed.
Q: If you did not know, who did?
A: I don't know what secrets there were, except the things I actually knew regarding these things. I actually don't know who knew them.
Q: Doctor, do you know Dr. Kottenhoff?
A: Kottenhoff, yes I made his acquaintance in the year 1944.
Q: Did he have any connection with your organization?
A: Yes, for a few days in the summer of 1944 he was for a few days with the office of the Chief of the Medical Service, but was transferred immediately thereafter.
Q: Did you know him before that time?
A: No, I did not know him.
Q: When did you first make the acquaintance of Dr. Weltz?
A: My first personal memory of Weltz dates back to July 1942. That was on the occasion of the aviation medicine conference in Hamburg. I would assume, however, that I had seen him before that time somewhere. However, I cannot give you an exact date.
Q: Will you tell me, doctor, a few more details concerning your first meeting with Rascher, just when did that happen?
A: I think that happened on the occasion of the conference between Hippke and Rascher, which, according to a document which I have seen here, dates to June 1942.
Q: That is June 1942?
A: Yes, June 1942.
Q: Well when did this meeting — pardon me — where did this meeting take place?
A: This meeting between Generaloberstabsartz Professor Hippke and Rascher took place at the office of Professor Hippke.
Q: At the office of Professor Hippke, how did you happen to be there?
A: I didn't quite understand.
Q: How did you happen to be there?
A: I was asked to attend the conversation, it was Generalarzt [General Physician] Dr. Marius, my department chief, who ordered me to do so.
Q: Who asked you? You say Dr. Marzius asked you to attend this meeting?
A: Yes, Dr. Marzius ordered me by request of the medical inspectorate to go there. This office was just one floor below my department, that is, under the department of Generalarzt Dr. Marzius, and in this department our referat was located.
Q: Do you any idea why he asked you to come to this meeting?
A: Yes, I have an idea and I have already explained that during my direct examination.
Q: Give it to us again?
A: I received an order to go down to Hippke with the files concerning the planned cold meeting in Nurnberg. Originally Anthony was to go there but since he was not present I was to replace him.
Q: Did you usually represent Anthony when he was not present?
A: I didn't usually represent him but only on certain occasions, on occasions when my departmental chief ordered me to do so.
Q: I am asking you what time, when did you represent Anthony?
A: There were occasions, not times.
Q: I see. Now at this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, Rascher spoke very clearly, did he not, about the use of concentration camp inmates for experimentation purposes?
A: I don't remember him having spoken particularly about concentration camp inmates. He mentioned that he had received a special commission for particular cases to use condemned criminals as experimental subjects, who could volunteer for those purposes, and to whom a mitigation of their sentence would be promised, as a result of such experiments.
Q: Now, doctor, this meeting took place in June 1942 and the reason why you were called to the meeting was to make arrangements for the cold conference in Nurnberg in October, is that the reason?
A: No, I was asked to attend because Professor Hippke wanted information on what the individual members of the Luftwaffe, who were dealing with the cold problem, would be lecturing about. He wanted to recommend one of these experts to Professor Rascher so that he could get in touch with him.
Q: Did you gather from the conversation why Hippke wanted to make the recommendation to Rascher, for what reason?
A: I assumed that Rascher asked him to name an expert for cold problem.
Q: Well what did Rascher want to know that for?
A: At that time I assumed and I still assume that Rascher wanted to collaborate with a scientist who had his own personal experiences in this field.
Q: That was the gist of the whole conversation — that Rascher was seeking an expert in the field of cold, from exposure, — shock from exposure to cold, is that it?
A: At any rate that was the subject of the conversation as long as I was present. I was only asked to attend the conference after it had already started and I left Professor Hippke and Rascher before the end of it. In other words, I was only present for a brief period during the middle of the conversation.
Q: Then as near as I can gather there were two things you heard at this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, No. 1, Rascher was seeking the collaboration of an expert in the field of freezing, and No. 2, Rascher talked about the use of inmates in the concentration camps for experimental purposes. That was only two things you heard at this meeting?
A: Yes, these were the two subjects, whereby I want to emphasize once more that I don't remember Rascher using the word "Concentration camp inmates". He used the word "criminal".
Q: I see, Rascher mentioned the criminals that Himmler would assign to him for use in experiments?
A: Yes, he was mentioning that.
Q: Now, I assume you are an intelligent young man. You have exhibited on the stand superior intellect, were you not able to ascertain at this meeting Rascher's intentions?
A: I don't know what you understand by Rascher's true intentions.
Q: Couldn't you put two and two together and make four, namely, criminals on this hand and seeking an expert for freezing research on the other hand, and that the two of them together make experimentation on human beings?
A: Certainly this was discussed very openly in Hippke's presence and that is what I said during my direct examination. One needs no particular intelligence for that.
Q: Then you knew in June 1942 that experiments on human beings, condemned criminals, you say, were to be performed by Dr. Rascher and a collaborator?
A: Yes, I said that during my direct examination.
Q: With the approval of Hippke?
A: Yes, with the approval of Hippke. I had assumed that. Mind you I didn't stay until the end of the conversation but since Hippke discussed the matter with Rascher I had assumed it was with his approval.
Q: When was the next time you heard about the freezing experiments?
A: The next time was in Nurnberg, at this discussion here about distress at sea and winter distress on the 26th and 27 of October 1942.
Q: Who arranged the Nurnberg conference?
A: The preparations for this meeting were made by the referent. That was Professor Anthony at that time and I had a few duties of an organizational nature, for example, four weeks before this meeting I was here in Nurnberg for day or two and investigated hotel possibilities and arranged a few other questions, such as for the hall for the meeting and equipment and so forth.
Q: Then you were on the committee for the arrangements of the meeting in October 1942?
A: There was not a committee. The preparations for the meeting, not only this meeting, but all of the twelve meetings of this nature which the Luftwaffe held, were always made by the referent because he was in charge of discussions later and I had organizational tasks, just as later, for example in 1944, I assigned such duties to some one else.
Q: Yet you were making all these arrangements for hall and for chairs, etc. You didn't know what the meeting was for?
A: I didn't say that I didn't know that. I knew the subject. I knew more or less the program of the lectures.
Q: Did you know Rascher was going to lecture?
A: No. That was not expected. The report on this meeting indicates clearly that Rascher's lecture was a so-called discussion remark — it was not a planned lecture.
Q: I see. Well, now, doctor, on page 77 in Document Book II. Do you have the German Document Book II before you? This is Document 343-A-PS — a letter from Erhard Milch to Wolf and is the "Dear Wolffy letter".
A: Yes, I have that. Yes, I have the document.
Q: Now, in this document I note that Milch states in the first paragraph about seven lines down from the top:
These have been prepared in immediate agreement with proper offices; Oberstabsarzt [Chief Medical Officer] Weltz will be charged with the execution and Stabarzt [Staff Physician] Rascher will be made available until further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe.
This is concerning the institution or the initiation of the freezing experiments. Can you tell me and the Tribunal how Milch received information that Weltz and Rascher would be good men to put on this assignment? Who would advise Milch in that matter?
A: Unfortunately I cannot give you that information. I can only refer to what Professor Hippke said as a witness in the Trial against Field Marshal Milch. I know no more than that and it is not quite clear to me how at the end of May such a letter could have been written. Up to this trial I had believed that when Rascher talked to Hippke these experiments were discussed for the first time, but here I see it must have been discussed three or even four weeks before hand and must have been discussed by various people.
Q: Are you certain then of the date that you have given us about the meeting between Hippke and Rascher? Might it be possible that that meeting took place two or three months before the date you have said, June 1942 you have said? Might it be possible the talk took place in March, April, or maybe six months before, or even the summer before, June 1941? That might fit into all these plans. Are you certain of that date — June 1942?
A: In June 1941 I was not yet an assistant referent in the Medical Inspectorate. I was in Romania at that time.
Q: Could it have been in August 1941?
Q: That is quite impossible. I remember it as much later. I thought that this Rascher-Hippke talk, where I was partly present was in the middle of the summer, perhaps July or August of 1942. But According to Document NO-283, Exhibit 80, Rascher's letter to Himmler, it has the right date and fits in with the rest of the documents and as far as I can judge means that this meeting was on 12 June 1942, because on the 15 June Rascher writes to Himmler:
A few days ago I was called to the Inspector of the Luftwaffe Medical Service, etc.
and since I was present at only one conversation between Hippke and Rascher this must be the one he is talking about here.
Q: Well, didn't it seem to you that this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, that this was the first time Hippke had discussed this problem, that is what I gathered from your testimony?
A: That had been my impression — that had been the first that Hippke talked to Rascher about it.
I had the impression that Hippke had known Rascher before, but I thought this was the first time they had talked possibly.
Q: Well, then the testimony of Weltz was enlightening to you when Weltz told us he had discussed the problem with Hippke himself in the summer of 1941?
A: Yes, I heard that.
Q: However you still maintain that the date of June 1942 when the meeting between Hippke and Rascher took place?
A: Yes.
Q: Your Honor, I might suggest that we could have a ten minute recess if it meets with the approval of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few minutes.