1947-06-10, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 10 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in Court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in Court.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. WILHELM BEIGLBOECK — Resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the Defendant Beiglboeck): Your Honors, yesterday I stopped with Exhibit 20, the affidavit of Dr. Karl Theodor Lesse, one of the doctors involved in the investigations in the sea water experiments. It is in Document Book 1, Document 14, on page 33. The document includes 82 questions. In order to save time I shall read merely the most important points:
1.) What was Beiglboeck's attitude towards the set up?
A.) His opinion was that there was no necessity to carry out these experiments at Dachau, since they could have been carried out easier and better in any military or civilian hospital.
2.) Did an SS-officer also tell us in Dachau that application to participate in the experiments was voluntary, and that in exchange privileges were granted to the prisoners?
Did Dr. Beiglboeck speak up for the experimental subjects on this occasion and did he recommend the release of some of them?
Do you remember that when replacements were needed after the preliminary examinations some people from Dachau volunteered spontaneously, that one of them, a gypsy from Munich, former hotel employee, who had an "escape point" even tried terribly hard to be admitted?
Did Dr. B. succeed in getting special permission for the removal of the "escape point" at the end of the experiments?
A.) Dr. Ploetner said that the applications were voluntary. As far as I remember even release was promised in exchange. B. repeatedly spoke up for the prisoners. I can not say anything about the last question.
3.) Were there any deaths?
A.) No.
4.) Were all provisions made for careful medical attention for the experimental subjects and was such attention in fact given?
Was there a regular nights service in operation?
Who was on duty?
Was there an order to the effect that in special cases B. was to be called, even at night? Did B. go every night, mostly between 2300 and 2400 hours, to the experiment room to check the well-being of the experimental subjects? Was he also called twice in one night and did he then effect an interruption of the experiments?
A.) Yes. Night duties were taken care of by medical students. B. himself made a late inspection every night. He had to be kept informed. I can not say anything about the last question.
5.) Did he succeed in getting the medical students, who were assigned to him, transferred to the infirmary upon their own request at the end of the experiments?
A.) Yes.
6.) At the end of the experiments, was there a thorough post-experimental examination and what were its results?
A.) Yes. According to Beiglboeck's reports no injury was found.
7.) Did B. at any time hand an experimental subject over to the SS for punishment or "softening up"?
A) No.
9.) What was his attitude to the prisoners in general?
A.) Very humane and benevolent.
12.) What was the physical condition of those gypsies who were used for the experiments?
13.) Did B. reject immediately at the beginning those who lock unfit?
A.) to 12 and 13.) The experimental subjects were given a thorough internal examination by B. and several, who were not quite healthy, were rejected.
14.) Do you remember that then, after X-raying 2 cases were found among the rest with new but already decaying tubercular affections of the lungs? Were all the experimental subjects X-rayed?
A.) They were all X-rayed, I know nothing about the results.
16.) Who, according to your observations, treated the inmates in the camp infirmary?
A.) Doctors who were inmates themselves.
21.) What was the attitude of the SS towards us?
A,) Nearly always arrogant and unfriendly.
25.) Were we told anything about Rascher's experiments? Could we go and look into Schillings ward?
A.) No. b.) No.
32.) Was everything always ready in the sick room or the adjoining room for an interruption of the experiment? What?
A.) Yes. Sterile fluids for injection. Heart and circulation drugs.
34.) Why was the Yugoslav medical student, originally detailed for night duty removed from the ward? What happened to him?
A.) He was unreliable, fell asleep. I don't know what happened to him.
35.) Was it at B.'s instigation that the other medical students were quartered during the night in the adjoining room (next to the experiment room)? For what purpose? Did it have incidental advantages for the students (inmates)?
A.) Yes. To be able to help more quickly. In this way they got better food.
35.) Do you remember Dr. B. telling you that he first tested the Berka system on himself?
A.) Yes.
41.) What was the effect of the intravenous injection of Fluid?
A) Beiglboeck reported an immediate quenching of the thirst and improvement of the condition.
44.) Did Beiglboeck inform the gipsies about the purpose. course and subjective symptoms at the beginning of the experiments, simultaneously assuring them that he would conduct the experiments in such a way as not to cause permanent injury?
Thereupon did they bind themselves also to carry out the experiments honestly?
A: to a and b) Yes.
45.) Do you remember that B. appointed the oldest gipsy as a confidential man who had to report all wishes, requests and complaints, and who also all had permanent orders from and Beiglboeck to influence those who did not behave in a disciplined manner.
A) Yes.
46.) After the experiment were flying personnel rations given out?
A) Yes.
47.) Do you remember that there were sometimes difficulties in the supply of same? Of what kind and why?
Do you remember that while we were there this airbase was bombed and the food store was hit?
A) Yes, because it came from the Schleissheim airbase. A check sometimes showed deficits which had to be delivered afterwards.
60.) Was Beiglboeck supported in his experiments by the SS?
A) No.
61.) a) Were the experiments carried out in two groups, i.e. when one section of the experimental subjects was being experimented upon, were the others not yet or no longer included?
b) How were the groups divided?
c) Could the experimental subjects who were not being experimented upon go out and walk in the courtyard?
d) Was it always the same courtyard?
e) Could those, who were out walking talk through the windows to inmates in other barracks without supervision?
A) a) Yes.
b) approximately into equal numbers.
c) Yes.
d) Yes.
e) Presumably.
62.) Where was the one group given food and drink while the other was being experimented upon? Reason for this measure?
A) Always separately, to spare the others the sight.
64.) Were we in possession of an exact chemical and bacteriological analysis of the sea water which was used?
A) Yes.
65.) Were cigarettes distributed after completion of the experiments?
A) Yes.
Did we have difficulties in obtaining them?
A) No.
68.) Did Beiglboeck request:
a) that the experimental subjects should remain afterwards at least for a week in the hospital?
b) that they should be on light duty for sometime?
c) that they really receive the concessions promised to them.
d) that Beiglboeck be informed if any of them show any after-effects (Ploetner).
A) Such requests were made and also granted.
73.) What was the shipwreck diet like?
How was it packed? Where did it come from? Who delivered it?
A) In the original cases packed by the producers. Contained biscuits, chocolate, dextrose, cigarettes, soda water.
74.) How much blood was taken daily?
A) It varied between 5 and 10 cc.
75.) Did you observe any fits of raving madness? What other nervous symptoms did you see?
A) No. B. reported a general exaggeration of the reflexes.
77.) Did high temperatures arise during the experiments? Do you consider it possible that cases of "fever delirium" occurred?
A) Beiglboeck never reported "fever delirium."
82.) Did we have a lot to do or could we arrange to have "free time"?
A) We had an extraordinarily large amount of work. We usually worked until late at night. This applied also to Beiglboeck. We came up against many technical difficulties.
DR. STEINBAUER: As the next exhibit, I submit the affidavit of Fritz Pillwein of the 5th of May 1947, Document Book II, Document 32, on page 117 to 124, and I assign exhibit No. 21 to it.
THE PRESIDENT: The last exhibit from which you read, what is the exhibit number from which you read in your document book I, the answer to the interrogatory.
DR. STEINBAUER: That was Exhibit 20, the Pillwein affidavit will be 21. I must read all of this document because the prosecution examined this witness too.
AFFIDAVIT I, Fritz Pillwein, student, born 11 May 1919 in Vienna, Austria citizen, resident in Vienna — III, Baumgasse 31, herewith state in lieu of an oath that my following statement is truthful and that it was made to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal I at the Palace of Justice, Nuremberg, Germany.
First of all I have been duly advised that I should render myself liable to punishment if I were to give a false affidavit.
As to the facts I state the following:
1) Question:
How and why did you come into the concentration camp?
Answer:
I took part in the Spanish civil war on the Republican side from 1937 to February 1939, was then sent to a French camp and was transferred in 1941 by the German occupation forces to the concentration camp Dachau, where I remained until the liberation by the Americans in April 1945.
2) Question:
How did you come to the sea-water experiments in the concentration camp?
Answer:
Since 1943 I was employed in the dispensary as male nurse, and in summer 1944 I received the order from the dispensary police Cape, to go to station 1/1 for the purpose of relieving there a male nurse called Max. This man had been employed as male nurse for about 8 days in the sea-water experiments. The gypsies had a quarrel with him before the beginning of the actual experiments regarding the distribution of food and asserted that he had beaten them, which he denied. The director of the experiments was Dr. Beiglboeck who after being informed of the incident demanded the dismissal of Max and who also gave me the strict order to treat the gypsies decently, whereupon I answered that that went without saying.
3) What do you know about the experimental subjects?
Answer:
44 men were used for the experiments, and I recognize some of them among the pictures shown to me by the defense. These persons were in a good state of health when the experiment was started, because I saw myself that they all were examined thoroughly by Dr. Beiglboeck for their suitability.
4) What do you know about the citizenship of the experimental subjects?
Answer:
I have stated to the Vienna State Police that the experimental subjects were of the most varied nationalities. After having been confronted with the list of names and the fact that these names also appear in the Register of Gypsies living in Germany, I can state the following:
The experimental subjects in most cases spoke their gypsy dialect. Many of them were obviously of Slavic origin. I did not see Identification pagers, however, as this was quite impossible in a concentration camp and as I did not ask them anything pertaining thereto. I therefore cannot make any exact statement regarding the nationality of the individual gypsies.
DR. STEINBAUER: There must be a mistake in the document book, here; in my opinion, it should say "Citizenship".
THE PRESIDENT: I am asking the interpreters their idea concerning the translation of the word which is translated as "nationality" in the affidavit which Dr. Steinbauer translated as citizenship.
VON SCHOEN: Your Honor, we believe that "citizenship" would be a better translation.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask counsel for the prosecution if he desires any further study or investigation as to the translation of this word.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I request that it be taken as stated by the interpreter without prejudice to the prosecution and with a right to bring the matter up later, if necessary.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel may proceed.
DR. STEINBAUER: (reading)
I did not ask then, because the gypsies were very primitive people, and some of them did not even know their own birthdays. I know that they were allowed to receive parcels from their relatives just like the other inmates of the concentration camp. Of course, during the experiments they did not receive any. It is true that one of these experimental subjects served in the Wehrmacht for two years. All the gypsies wore the black patch given to asocial persons. When mot being used in an experiment they were in the court yard where they were also photographed.
5) Were the inmates volunteers?
Answer:
I know for certain that two inmates volunteered because they were inmates of Dachau and German gypsies, who by participation in the experiment were released from the so-called punishment company. That the other inmates, too, were volunteers I conclude from the fact that Beiglboeck was very angry when he discovered that some of them had drunk water and that he reproached the gypsies for first volunteering for the experiments and then not obeying the instructions during the experiment. The gypsies came from other camps, some of them coming from Auschwitz; they arrived together in a transport from Buchenwald, where some Buchenwald inmates joined them, and they were then transported to Dachau. From the Dachau camp itself only 3 replacements were selected. I am of the opinion that there were no concentration camp "volunteers", even if they were induced by promises to volunteer for the experiment in order to improve somewhat their miserable lot. I, who had shared in the sufferings in the concentration camps for years, came to this conclusion, but it is quite possible, however, that Beiglboeck, who was not acquainted with concentration camp conditions, had the impression that they were genuine volunteers.
6) How did Beiglboeck treat the inmates?
Answer:
Beiglboeck treated the patients well, which was a striking contrast to the treatment which we inmates received from the SS. Beiglboeck only became very angry when the gypsies had lied to him regarding the drinking of water and when he found out about it from the blood test. He used his influence to have the patch removed from Taubmann and his friend, another German gypsy. He also saw to it that the French physicians were transferred from the laborers' barracks to the dispensary personnel. He also obtained for me permission to wear a military hair cut. To those persons who submitted gracefully to the experiments he premised cigarettes and distributed them, too.
7) What was the accommodation like?
Answer:
It was my task to accommodate the people and, according to their state of health they slept in clean single beds or double bunks.
8) Where did Beiglboeck and the internee doctors reside?
Answer:
Beiglboeck slept away from the prison camp, and during most of the day he was present in the ward. The staff in charge of the prisoners had their own staff dormitory and the physicians slept in an anteroom attached to the sick room, so as to be on call if required.
9) What sort of food did the experimental subjects receive?
Answer:
Under the male nurse Max they received the so-called Luftwaffe food before the experiment. During the first four days of the experiment they received sea-rescue emergency rations and then nothing until the end of the experiment. Afterwards they received first skimmed milk, then slops, then a special diet and finally again normal camp food. Once when the food supply from the Luftwaffe was interrupted, there arose differences between the camp administration and Beiglboeck because the camp administration refused to supply this Luftwaffe food to the prisoners as had been promised at the expense of the SS camp.
10) And now We come to the main question. Were there any cases of death as a result of the experiments?
I remind you of your oath.
Answer:
No. I should regard it as a betrayal of my comrades and should be ashamed of myself if I were not to answer this important question absolutely truthfully.
Good.
But I must remind you of the testimony of the witness Josef Tschofenig, document No. NO 911, Exhibit No. 139, and the testimony of witness August Vieweg, records, page 471. You yourself have looked at these documents. Tschofenig now says that saline injections etc led to unconsciousness and death. And Vieweg says: I have twice or three times seen coffins being carried in the direction of the death chamber.
Answer:
Both witnesses are personally well known to me and I believe I am justified in presuming that neither of them has maliciously given a false and contradictory testimony. In the camp there was a widely spread whispering campaign in which now and then the most absurd rumors were circulated. Neither Tschofenig nor Vieweg were directly involved in the experiments and therefore cannot state anything from their own observations. My Viennese compatriot Vorlicek, who was with me in the ward as assistant male nurse would also confirm my statement. With regard to Vieweg's testimony I would state the following: Through the main corridor of the Prison Hospital, past the door of our experimental ward 1/1, the dead were carried to the death chamber from all the blocks in the rear of the Prison Hospital. They were on stretchers, covered with a sheet or blanket (see sketch). Vieweg must have erroneously presumed that the dead were from our ward.
11) Did Beiglboeck hand over gypsies to the SS for liquidation for so-called brawling?
Answer:
No.
12) Were gypsies brought to the regular Prison Hospital to disguise the fact that deaths occurred?
Answer:
One gypsy was brought to the general sick bay in block III, room 2, where a comrade of mine, by the name of Franz York, was employed as male nurse. I am sure he would have told me if this gypsy had died.
13) Was there any connection between the experiments with sea water and the experiments of Dr. Rascher or the malaria experiments made by Dr. Schilling?
Answer:
I have never seen Rascher nor Schilling in our ward block 1/1. Otherwise I can say nothing about it.
14) Did you have any incidents such as attacks of raving madness or hunger riots, etc?
Answer:
There were no hunger riots or attacks or raving madness. I remember one incident when somebody had a screaming fit; he was bound with straps or sheets to the bed and was thereafter withdrawn from the experiment. I know nothing about tying them with straps as punishment. The people suffered greatly from thirst as well as from hunger and tried all kinds of ways to obtain water especially. My comrades and I turned a blind eye at such times.
15) Who made the blood tests?
This translation is not correct. It is, "Who took the blood samples?" That would be a better translation.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask the opinion of the interpreters as to the translation.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, your Honor, "who took the blood samples from the patients" would be the correct translation.
THE PRESIDENT: Does counsel for Prosecution have anything to suggest to this translation?
MR. HARDY: I have no objection to it, your Honor. I can't see the difference either between this one and the other one.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, counsel.
DR. STEINBAUER: (reading)
Answer:
In most cases Beiglboeck himself or a French internee doctor under his supervision.
16) What do you know about the duration of the tests?
Answers:
As to the exact time of the individual groups I have forgotten the actual details. However, as far as I remember, the longest was 12 days.
17) What do you know about the loss in weight?
Answer:
As a male nurse I had to supervise the daily weighing and I know that the patients lost up to one kilogram daily. I would like to mention here in general that I can no longer remember exact details of kilograms and decagrams. The notes shown to me are those made by the internee doctors. I made the temperature curves on instructions from Prof. Beiglboeck. One of the medical orderlies wrote the history of the illness. I am, of course, no doctor and cannot judge the accuracy of the figures mentioned in these books.
18) How were the experiments concluded?
Answer:
They were stopped either by sodium chloride injections or by giving water, milk, mashed food, etc. As already mentioned above the feeling of thirst soon disappeared.
19) What happened to the experimental subjects after the end of the sea water experiments?
Answer:
At the end of the experiment all the experimental subjects were still present and after a few days respite for recovery, were places at the disposal of the labor pool. Beiglboeck asked for several concessions, but I don't know whether they were made, because shortly after the conclusion of the sea water experiments I was posted from Dachau to a branch detail, Fischen/Allgau.
Your Honors, I should now like to call our attention to the sketch attached to this affidavit. I have had an English translation prepared by the General Secretary's office so that you will be able to follow. If you will be kind enough to take this sketch you will find at the bottom a broad camp road, then at the right the entrance to the hospital, and then in the middle the main corridor of the hospital, and perpendicularly the block street. The third square in the middle is the experimental station. You see "wash room", "toilet", "sea water experimental station", "medical students room", and museum". Next to that there is the outer court yard of the block street. Now, if you go further to the right you will see the name "Vieweg". That is the point where the witness Vieweg was. It says there "Malaria Station". It is certain that Vieweg must have been there because he said he worked for Schilling in the malaria station. Now, you will be interested in knowing where the second witness Tschofenig was. He was way in back in the last category. There is one small subdivision and that says "X-ray station". That is where the witness Tschofenig was stationed who took all the x-ray pictures for the whole hospital. It is impossible for Tschofenig to see from there what happened in the sea water experimental station.
Now, let's follow the path taken by the corpses that Mr. Vieweg saw. Behind the barracks shown here, there are many other barracks. Now, if you follow the corridor of the hospital and the block read, you will find, at the top, TK. That is the morgue. That was the hospital morgue. Then, moving on to a door. Here there is written "moor express". I asked him what he meant by that. He said that was a joke in the camp. There was no railroad in the camp of Dachau, of course, but the prisoners themselves had to remove the bodies from the morgue and take them to the crematorium in a hand cart. They were taken past the sea water station, through the block read, and they were covered. Those are the corpses that Mr. Vieweg saw.
Now, I shall submit an affidavit from Document Book I. Document #15 on page 48. This document will be Exhibit #22. This affidavit is by a Catholic prior of a big cloister in Austria from the same district as Beiglboeck. I shall not read all of it, only two paragraphs.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal. May I inquire of counsel whether or not he intends to continue his direct examination of the defendant Beiglboeck this morning, or whether he is going to read his affidavits now. It seems to me that he could continue his direct examination and introduce his affidavits after the time that Beiglboeck has left the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: It would seem, counsel, that it might be a better procedure to finish the direct examination of the witness and then introduce the documents unless you desire to question the witness concerning these documents. I understood that your direct examination of the defendant Beiglboeck was almost concluded. You stated that you expected to conclude it last evening.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, this is the last document. Only the documents where there were possibilities of question I wanted to read while the witness was on the stand. Then there are some other documents I shall read later.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, counsel.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: I shall read from this document of the prior only two paragraphs. On page 50, at the top:
He remarked that, if he had to carry out such work, he would prefer to do so in his hospital at Pleskau.
That is a term we haven't heard yet and I wanted to ask the witness why it says Pleskau here instead of Dachau. That seems to be a mistake. Witness. One sentence will be enough, witness.
A: I believe that is a confusion. I visited him twice once from Pleskau and once while I was in Vienna during this job, and apparently he confused the two places because he didn't keep these two visits entirely separate.
Q: And what was Pleskau? Only in order to clear the location —
A: Pleskau is a Russian town where I was in the hospital while I was in Russia.
Q: Thank you.
I shall continue:
Since he added: 'If I do have to conduct these experiments I can't help it, because I am an officer' — I gathered that he was absolutely opposed to these experiments and that he entertained the idea of refusing his cooperation, if possible, but that he had inner doubts as to the possibility of such a refusal being successful.
According to his whole behavior, he obviously was under strong pressure at that time.
And the last paragraph on the bottom of this page:
Significant for our relations and for the trust I placed in Professor Dr. Beiglboeck is the fact that upon receipt of his note stating that he was in Dachau, I asked him to look after a member of our convent, Father Richard Wolf, who was held as a prisoner there.
I naturally would never have done this if I had not placed full reliance in Dr. Beiglboeck's attitude.
In reply, I received a letter from a Luftwaffe hospital From this hospital it appeared that he had left Dachau.
In this letter he emphasized how happy he was to have got away from Dachau and to be back at his former medical work.
And now I am finished with my documents?
Your Honors, in the beginning of my case I said that I wanted to build my case up like a cable car. There would be a leading cable and a safety cable and the safety cable would be the scientific basis. I don't believe that I shall have to use this. I don't want to argue now, I just want to call your attention to the following circumstances. The prosecution has submitted documents by Tschofenig, whom I have characterized, and Vieweg, whom I have characterized, and a Mr. Bauer, whom I shall speak of later. It is noteworthy that the prosecution, who are such advocates of humanity, did not do the most natural thing, that is, to bring the experimental subjects, the victims as witnesses. When I came to my office today I was surrounded by my colleagues and secretaries and I was told that at eight and eleven last night, on the radio, there was an appeal to all victims of the sea water experiments to report and they were promised that they would be given quarters and good food. I was very happy because I saw that the examination of the defendant as a witness was so effective that the prosecution was obliged to send out an SOS. I now make application your Honors, for permission to call a witness, before the cross examination begins, who was one of these experimental subjects. This is Mr. Mettbach, whom I announced as a witness on Saturday, according to the rules. As defense counsel, it is my duty to see to it that this witness appears before you without prejudice and makes his statements here. Otherwise, I would have submitted an affidavit, but I thought that the Tribunal would like to see this witness and that Mr. Hardy would certainly like to have an opportunity to cross examine this man. Therefore, I ask for permission to call this witness now, so that he can be quite unprejudiced. I can't give him anything to eat. I have no food cards. I must send him back. He is a poor Gypsy and I don't want to keep him here too long.
Therefore, I make application that the witness be called now.
MR. HARDY: Of course, I object to that application. I wish to start my cross examination of the defendant so that the continuity will not be interrupted and so that my preparation will not be interrupted. Furthermore, the remarks regarding the prosecution's requesting that these Gypsies report to Nurnberg is rather uncalled for inasmuch as the prosecution hasn't been in a position to send out such a call before inasmuch as the names of the Gypsies were never made available to us. I wish to cross examine the defendant Beiglboeck today. The prosecution strenuously objects to calling the witness prior to the cross examination of Beiglboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume, Mr. Hardy, in view of your statement, I assume that the authorities will be prepared to furnish food for the witness until he is called.
MR. HARDY: If he is a defense witness, there are regulations set up for that. They have a Defense Information Center and Mr. Wartena takes care of those problems.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may refer the matter to the Defense Information Center which will take care of food and lodging of the witness until he is called.
MR. HARDY: Furthermore, Your Honor, I request that due notice be given to the prosecution as to the witness' name and all particulars concerning his background.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand from counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck that he had furnished that information. If he has not done so, it should be done immediately.
MR. HARDY: I have not received it, Your Honor, and I wouldn't be in a position to cross examine the witness until such time as I am able to study his case also.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honors, we are dealing with very primitive people. The prosecution has quite different resources than I do.
They could have issued an appeal some time ago, but did not do so. I tried to find these people. With great effort, I was unable to do so. I could not undertake any large scale actions, of course, and I am happy that I was able to find at least one which will complete the chain. You have heard the doctors, the nurses, the defendant, and there is only one thing missing now. I had no obligation to say anything. I could have been silent. I could have said "It's up to you to prove it." I submitted scientific material and gave it to the prosecution as my client said he had nothing to be afraid of. The prosecution has the temperature charts from which any doctor can see when the experiment began, when it was finished, what the course of the experiment was — the whole history is in the possession of the prosecution. I have not asked for it back. I wanted the prosecution to have an opportunity to study it. I know that Professor Ivy is here. He will certainly study the matter. We have nothing to be afraid of. That is my point of view.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't understand this plea and I request a ruling as to whether or not I can cross examine the defendant Beiglboeck now or whether I have to wait until after the witness is called.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will make that ruling in a moment. Defense counsel will immediately furnish to the prosecution the name of the witness and other information concerning this witness.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honors, it was done quite formally on Saturday through the General Secretary's office.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood counsel to make that statement. Counsel for the prosecution has stated he has not received it. That is, of course, not the fault of counsel for the defendant.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, it seems to me that this procedure would be most unusual. This witness is now on the stand undergoing direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the direct examination — the examination of this witness will proceed, but we are discussing the status of this witness who will not be called until after the defendant Beiglboeck is excused.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of the witness?
DR. STEINBAUER: The witness' name is —
THE PRESIDENT: (Interrupting) The Tribunal regards this witness whom you have named and mentioned as an important witness, but the Tribunal desires to see that the witness is fed and housed as it is done — the usual manner as other witnesses. If any question arises concerning that, and the Defense Information Center is not prepared to take care of the witness, if you will report it at once to the Tribunal, the Tribunal will take the witness under its own protective custody in order that he will be fed and housed until such time as he is called to the stand. I cannot imagine why the Defense Information Center, if you have requested them, has not seen that this witness has been fed and housed as other witnesses are.
DR. STEINBAUER: May I announce the name of the witness? The name is Ernst Mettbach.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please spell the name?
DR. STEINBAUER: E-r-n-s-t M-e-t-t-b-a-c-h. He lives in Eschenau 10, Fuerth, Bavaria. So that there is no confusion, I am on friendly terms with the Secretary General's office. I merely wanted to say that through this radio appeal, in view of the food situation in Germany, hundreds will report and say, "I will be given food and I will go to Nuernberg and tell them something."
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel need not concern himself with that problem.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I assure you the prosecution isn't running a bread line. The prosecution merely sent out an appeal.
THE PRESIDENT: That matter has been settled, Mr. Hardy. There is no use taking further time.
DR. STEINBAUER: I am finished with the direct examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel have any questions to propound to this witness?
BY DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for defendant Sievers):
Q: When did you meet Wolfram Sievers?
A: I saw Mr. Sievers for the first time and only time in my life, before this trial I mean, of course, on 20 July 1944 in the discussion in Dachau which has been mentioned here.
Q: Had you been informed before that you would see Sievers on the 20th of July in Dachau at this conference?
A: No, I was not informed of that, or at least only immediately before the conference.
Q: Then your superior agency did not tell you that you had to negotiate with Sievers?
A: No.
Q: What kind of an impression did you have from this meeting with Sievers? Was that just an accident?
A: Mr. Ploetner, with whom I had negotiated before hand concerning these laboratory questions, said to me one day, "A man has arrived from Berlin. He can decide this question. Come with me. We will take to him."
Q: And what did you discuss with Sievers?
A: I told him that this small laboratory in Ploetner's institute was not adequate for my investigations and asked him to give us a second bigger laboratory in the entomological institute, and he promised to do so, and we did get this room.
Q: Was anything said on this occasion, about the execution of the sea water experiments? Was anything said beyond the supplying of the laboratory room?
A: No, not a word. The conversation was exclusively about this room.
Q: Then you did not talk to Sievers about the supplying of experimental subjects?
A: No, the experimental subjects were no doubt supplied on orders from Berlin and through the camp commandant's office. As far as I know, Sievers had nothing whatever to do with it.
Q: And this original opinion of yours did not change in the course of the experiments?
A: I didn't see Sievers any more; I didn't have anything more to do with him after the end of this conference, which as I said was about the laboratory. I never saw him again. I never heard of him again until I came to Nuernberg and heard he was one of my co-defendants here.
Q: And after this discussion you never saw or heard anything of Sievers which might have indicated that he had nothing more to do with this matter?
A: No, I never heard anything more.
Q: Did you in any form, orally or in writing, give a report to the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage] or the Reichsfuehrer SS, or any other agency, aside from your own branch of the Wehrmacht, concerning your experiments?
A: I reported on these experiments only to my superior agency, the Luftwaffe Medical Inspector, and no one else.
Q: Now, you heard in the course of earlier examination that the Ahnenerbe had an institute for military scientific research. Did this institute have any connection with your experiments in any way?
A: I knew the name, knew that Ploetner was working at that institute, but aside from these very vague connections, which were limited entirely to laboratory questions, I had nothing to do with this institute and the institute had nothing to do with me, that is, my experiments in no way were carried out or promoted or influenced by the Institute for Scientific Research.
Q: Now, for my final question. The fundamental question is the sea water experiments as far as I am informed were the 20th of May 1944?
A: The 20th of July.
Q: Yes, the 20th of July. Pardon me.
Subsequently did you learn whether Sievers or any other representative of the Ahnenerbe was present at this discussion?
A: I did not understand you; that was on 20 July?
Q: No, at the fundamental discussion about the execution of seawater experiments?
A: Oh, you mean in Berlin?
Q: Yes, in Berlin.
A: From my own knowledge, I cannot tell you anything about this discussion. I was not present myself. What I know about it, I learned the details from this trial here. I heard from Becker-Freyseng at the time that some men from the Navy, some men from the technical office and some University professors, including Eppinger and Heubner had held a meeting and arranged for the experiments. I never was told that the Aheneerbe or any SS agency participated in this discussion.
Q: Thank you, no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by defense counsel?
BY DR. FLEMMING (For the defendant Mrugowsky)
Q: Professor, the Prosecution has charged Mrugowsky with responsibility for and participation in the sea-water experiments; did you know Mrugowsky before the beginning of this trial?
A: No.
Q: Did you know his name; had you heard his name in any connection with these experiments?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear anything else which might indicate that he was in any way connected with the sea-water experiments?
A: I never heard of any other agency or any persons in connection with the sear-water experiments, except the members of the Luftwaffe and were the advisors called in by them, neither Mrugowsky or Schaefer or anyone else in the SS. I knew only that Himmler had given approval for the use of the experimental subjects and for the execution of the experiments in concentration camps.
Q: Do you know the committee for Drinking Water Equipment in the Reichs Ministry Speer?
A: I learned of the existence of this committee here.
Q: Then as far as you know this committee had nothing to do with the sea-water experiments?
A: Certainly not. Making sea-water drinkable was not done by a committee but by the discovery of Dr. Schaefer.
Q: Do you know Dr. Zikowsky from Vienna?
A: Yes, he is the leading expert in Vienna for infectious diseases and the head of the big infectious hospital in Vienna.
Q: What was his attitude toward National Socialism?
A: I cannot give you any detailed information about that, but as far as I know he was not a party member. I believe that he had certain political difficulties, but I cannot give you any detailed information, only what I can more or less remember.
Q: Thank you no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions by any other defense counsel? If not, the Prosecution may cross examine the witness. Before proceeding with the cross-examination, the Tribunal will be in recess.
( A recess was taken. )