1947-06-11, #2: Doctors' Trial (mid morning)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Beiglboeck will step down from the stand and take a seat at this table.
MR. HARDY: At this time I would like to take up with the defendant the chart of these individual experiments. These charts, Your Honor, are in a series. We will note that the first experimental subjects have four charts, which run continuously. At the top of each chart the number one appears. For convenience, I will request permission of the Tribunal to number the first page with the No. 1 as A—1 and mark thereon the letter A; on the second chart, pertaining to the first subject, the No. B-1 on the third chart the number C-1, and on the fourth chart the number D-1, so we may properly refer to each one of the four charts referring to the first subjects, if it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: We will note for the record that the marks now on the charts, on the first three, are made with a red pencil.
MR. HARDY: The fourth chart, Your Honor, does not have the red pencil No. 1, you can see it has No. 1.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be noted for the record that the fourth chart has been marked for the Tribunal as D-1 in black pencil.
MR. HARDY: Now, in order to clearly understand these charts, I am going to ask Professor Beiglboeck to explain some of them, marking thereon the name which appears on the top left-hand corner. In this case, No. 1, could you tell us, Professor Beiglboeck, what this name is and who does it refer to?
THE WITNESS: That is the name of the experimental subject.
MR. HARDY: That name on that chart —
THE PRESIDENT: Please repeat.
MR. HARDY: What is the name, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Tell him to spell it.
MR. HARDY: Kindly spell the name.
THE WITNESS: F-R-A-N-Z.
MR. HARDY: Now on the first line under the heading of the chart there appears this word, would you kindly tell us what that line is, the first mark?
THE PRESIDENT: I would suggest that you designate it as the first horizontal block running from left to right on the page.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment; are you getting the English? One of the judges is not receiving the English translation.
THY INTERPRETER: It must be in the switch, Your Honor.
MR. HARDY: Now, Professor Beiglboeck —
DR. STEINBAUER: Can I tell you something quite general for your information and the prosecutor may resume again at once. First of all, this means the loss of weight, the duration of the experiment, the body temperature pulse, and the stool and amount of urine eliminated. All these matters can be seen on the charts for every experimental subject. The most important thing is the loss of weight. On the basis of these charts, Beiglboeck calculated this very exactly in the prison and let me also say for your information that the tables of weights are the most important part; they are the key to everything. The most important thing again is the loss of weight. I should like later, when I get to them, to give an exhibit number to these documents and I should like to give them to you now, I have had a photostatic copy of each one made and when I continue with my case I shall come to these again. So far, however, I have not put them in evidence, as that was not heretofore necessary before the documents were impounded, but I have no objection to there being looked at most exactly now. Please accept these tables now so that you may also check on the loss of weight. It was for this reason that Beiglboeck has them here in court. Then I can also tell you what those other two booklets are about. Mr. Hardy, please get the black booklet.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you explain what the books are.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I object to the introduction of those charts at this time. If defense counsel sees fit to present them in redirect examination I will object. I do not see during cross-examination how these charts can be introduced. Those charts which were prepared after the defendant was incarcerated would not be in much force and effect here.
THE PRESIDENT: Unless these charts will be of assistance to the Tribunal now, it is suggested they be offered later. I will ask the defendant witness if he confirms the explanation of these charts which was made by his counsel.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q: Has counsel correctly explained these charts?
A: In the first line here is the date. On the second line, the days on which the subject was observed. Here in the third line there is the record of the weight and, if I remember correctly, it is also set down below in some cases. Here is the subject's height. The blue is the temperature. The red is the pulse. Here is the record of the person's solid elimination. Here is the blood pressure, and then these are notes which were copied from the other booklet regarding the blood examination.
Q: Is there any record on this sheet which you have just described to the Tribunal of the change of weight of the experimental subject?
A: Here — 63.5, 64,64.5. On the 22nd —
Q: That is on the third line from the top.
A: Yes. This is curve "B." Here is the weight: 64.7. Now, the experiment begins here and now here you see the loss of weight. This is a subject from the hungering and thirsting group. You can see that he loses weight very rapidly, goes from 64.7 down to 62.2; then 59, 58, down to 57.5. Here the experiment is interrupted at 7:00 p.m. Then the next days he weighed 57.5 and 58.2 58,6 and 62,61,61. Then at the conclusion the man was weighed again. This is on the 12th of September.
That is where the curves were concluded. That was the weight when he was released. Let me point out also that this writing here —
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, for the systematic method of examination of these records — and I think it would be more clear to the Tribunal — to avoid repetition I would like to direct my questions on each point on each chart and then the defendant can explain it at that time and have some sequence of continuity.
THE PRESIDENT: As it is suggested, counsel may now proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Professor Beiglboeck, the first horizontal line running left to right across the chart is the calendar date line is it not?
A: Yes.
Q: The second horizontal line is the day of each experiment — that is, the number of days under which the subject is being subjected to an experiment. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: The third horizontal line contains on the top of that particular line the weight of the patient on each day. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Immediately under the weight of the patient on the third horizontal line it contains the height and other miscellaneous data. Is that correct?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Now, at the middle of the page we see, running left to right, a blunt black line. That is the line denoting the temperature curve — that is, any blue line marked under the blunt black line indicates normal temperature and any blue line marked above the black line indicates temperature above normal. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Immediately under the black blunt line, in the middle of the page, we find blue marks running left to right in an irregular manner. Do those indicate the temperature of the patient or subject?
A: The red line?
Q: Blue line.
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Under the blue line in the portion of the chart directly under the black blunt line appears a red line running irregularly from left to right. That indicates the pulse rate of the subject, does it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, after the graph section of the chart there runs a block which we will consider the first line of blocks under the graph section of the chart. This first line running left to right under the graph section of the chart indicates the stool, does it not?
A: That is right.
Q: The second line under the graph section of the chart indicates -I am unable to determine that. Could you tell us what that line. indicates — the second line under the graph section of the chart?
A: That is entitled "Vomit." let me say that these fever charts are the regular charts used in the German army. They are already printed charts that are generally used in German army hospitals. That line I just mentioned is entitled "Vomiting."
Q: And, the third line under the graph section of the chart indicates what?
A: Body weight.
Q: The fourth line indicates the Blood pressure, does it not; that is the fourth line under the graph section of the chart?
A: Blood pressure, yes.
Q: And, then the large blocks, that is the fifth section under the graph section of the chart, are used for what purpose?
A: The results of blood examination were occasionally entered there, and various other notes.
Q: Now, on the chart B-1, in the graph section of the chart under the Blunt Black line, appear red vertical lines; is the red vertical line which appears in the graph section of the chart, under the black Blunt line, the indication of urinary output or excretion?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the Blue vertical marking under the Black Blunt line an indication of the intake, that is, the water a person drinks?
A: Yes, more or less. It strikes me here — let me say that perhaps the amounts are not exact here. Later on it was not checked exactly on just how much they did consume.
MR. HARDY: May I request, your Honors, to look at this first series of charts, and if you have any further question concerning the marks thereon, we will clear that point up before we proceed to analyze the charts.
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the witness how many days the charts indicate that the subject was experimented on.
MR. HARDY: If your Honor, pleases, I intend to analyze that in taking care of each chart.
THE PRESIDENT: Well.
Q: In connection with the last examination of the defendant, he stated that these vertical marks and red marks appearing below the Black Blunt line, in the middle of the page, do not contend to be accurate; is that correct?
Is that what you intended to imply?
A: I said that in the latter part of the experiments, the amount of fluid was not strictly controlled. It did not make any difference to me, for instance, whether on 1 September there was a consumption of 2000 or 3000 cc. If he drank on the side, for instance, here, that would not appear in the chart.
Q: Can you tell the Tribunal in the scientific marking of charts, how you indicate that the vertical line, such as appears in chart C-1 is not to be construed as an accurate one? Is there a difference in the method of marking in that? The blue vertical line on chart C-1, is there a difference in the method of marking in that if it is to be considered an accurate figure, the marking is perfectly blunt at the end, that is running level, and if it is to be construed as inaccurate or merely an estimate the line has a fringed edge or an irregular edge?
A: These lines were drawn by the medical students or by the medics, and what they looked like depended on how they drew them. I am not exactly informed on this. The only thing important to me was to know how the amount of urine set down. Moreover, this graphics representation of the urine elimination is not so important because we measured the amount of urine eliminated separately and entered it separately. The medical students who measured the urine entered that every time in the booklet, and then went to the chart, if he did so at all, and put the marks in it hastily as we see here. I cannot guarantee that the line is correct to the millimeter. The real data on the urine amount is to be found in the booklet, and this is simply something that was more or less accurately or inaccurately transferred to the graphs.
Q: Is it customary in scientific research experiment on human beings and keep haphazard reports or is it customary to keep scientific accurately reports, so you can properly report about the results of your work?
A: If you will please pass me the booklet I can show you that the amount of urine are entered very exactly.
Q: That is not my question, Doctor; my question is: In scientific research is it necessary to keep accurate or haphazard records?
A: Of course, it is necessary to have exact in recording the amount of Urine we put the amounts down in a separate booklet.
Q: These records that are before the Tribunal purport to be accurate scientific records of experiments conducted on 44 experimental subjects in the concentration camp Dachau?
A: What was necessary for arriving at a decisive result in the experiments was set down in an exact way.
Q: Doctor, this case, No. 1, is the first case in the hunger and thirst group, is it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Now the subject's first name was Franz, was it not, F-r-a-n-z?
A: I cannot tell you whether that is his first or his last name.
Q: Is it possible that his last name did appear on the charts at one time or is it customary to merely put down the first name of the patient?
A: I assume that is his family name. As far as I know I never entered the first name, so in the names here those are the family names of the subjects.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, in whose handwriting is the name Franz written.
A: That is my handwriting.
Q: Witness, this experiment, we note on chart A-1 you indicate for the first seven days of the experiment was an observation period; is that correct?
A: The period of observation closes at the eighth day. The experiment begins on this day here.
Q: Then, the experiment you contend began on the ninth day?
A: Yes, as you can see from the weight.
JUDGE SEBRING: Would it be more explicit to say then that in the four graphs now before the Tribunal, marked A-l, to D-l inclusive, the chart A-1 is concerned only with the preliminary period or the beginning of experiments?
MR. HARDY: No, your Honor, I can possibly identify them, but the Prosecution contends the experiments began on the eighth day and not the ninth.
Q: Now, on the eighth day, which is indicated on chart A-1, we see in the portion of the chart under the eight day, the note "Hunger D"; what does that refer to, Doctor?
A: That means that on this day I ordered that the hunger-thirst experiment was to begin.
Q: Then, this eight day which was the 31st day of August, the eight day of the experiment as indicated on Chart A-l, is the beginning of the experiment?
A: It begins on the 22nd, that can be seen from the weight very clearly. If it had began on the 21st the first loss of weight would have occurred then. It went, he actually gained weight in that period and that is a certain indication that the experiment did not begin on that day. You notice here that once the experiment began he lost 2.5 kilos and 2 kilos and so on. In other words, a hunger-thirst experiment supposes that the man will lose weight immediately once it begins.
Q: Doctor, can you tell the Tribunal when the arrow in the portion of the chart under the numth day of the experiment, under the date of 22 August, on Chart B-1, the arrow which has the blue circle at the end thereof and the initials LB along the side of it, was placed on this chart?
A: I believe that I did it at the time when I evaluated the graphs.
Q: Is it apparent from this chart that the red arrow appearing in the blue circle under the 22nd is in a different color red pencil than that of the red pencil marks on all the charts?
A: Yes, you can see that everywhere. These curves were made by different people. I can't say the same pencil was used all the time, but that in itself proves nothing. There were three or four different people. Once this person took the temperatures and then another one and whether they always used the same red pencil I can't say.
Q: Now, doctor, we note on the chart B-1, under the 22nd August the 9th day of the Experiment, the patient has received pyramidon, a drug. What was the purpose of administering pyramidon to that patient?
A: I don't remember that anymore now. Perhaps he had some headache or something like that.
Q: Is pyramidon a headache remedy?
A: Well, pyramidon is administered for all kinds of different things. Among other things it is given in cases of headache.
Q: It is possible that the patient didn't have a headache before the experiment started, did he?
A: I can't say anymore today why I gave him pyramidon at that time.
Q: Well, now on the same date, that is also on the same date, that is the 22nd August, the 9th day of the experiment as indicated on chart B-l, we see in the portion of the chart under this black blunt line that a blue vertical line has been placed on the chart and then erased. Is that correct?
A: Well, there was an error. In any case probably it was erased because it was marked in there by mistake.
Such things occur once in a while. At the moment I can't reconstruct in all details. In any case the hunger and thirst period begins here and, therefore, it is impossible that he had a blue line here. The person marking it made a mistake. First marked it in blue and then in red pencil.
Q: You exclude the possibility that the arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof and the blue vertical mark which has been erased on the chart B-l, under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment, were marks made on. these charts since the commencement of this action before this Tribunal?
A: Yes, I can exclude that possibility. I did not mark anything at all here.
Q: When did the blue circle and the arrow appear on this chart for the first time? That is, the red arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof contained in chart B-1 under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment?
A: I cannot state that with certainty. I don't remember it anymore.
Q: Well, now you stated that you put that arrow on the chart when you evaluated the material. Was it when you evaluated the material here in Nurnberg or was it when you evaluated the material in August 1944 in the Dachau concentration camp?
A: I evaluated it at a later time. I cannot state with certainty when I did so. It happened that at that time I marked that arrow but that arrow isn't important at all. The important thing is that by the curves of the weight one can see quite clearly when the experiment was started.
Q: Well, in the first instance, that is at Dachau when you began an experiment, didn't you mark at that time when the experiment began or did you wait until a later date to mark the beginning of the experiment? You see, doctor, on chart A-1, under the date 21 August, the 8th day of the experiment, you very clearly, mark the commencement of the experiment by saying hunger and thirst will begin on this date.
Isn't that true?
THE PRESIDENT: Where is that said, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: Under 21 August on chart A-1, your Honor, the 8th day of the experiment — tho German mark "Hunger-D", which means "hungerthirst".
A: Well today I cannot inform you anymore about every little detail. Probably at that time I made that mark on it so that the medical orderlies would know that this was the hunger and thirst group, and when the experiments began. But, please believe me, the experiment could not have started any earlier than the loss of weight, because it is impossible that a person hunger and thirst for 24 hours and still gain weight. That is impossible.
Q: Can a person lose weight immediately upon being subjected to hunger and thirst for a very short period of 24 hours? Will he lose a tremendous amount of weight in that short period of time?
A: Yes, certainly.
Q: Is it possible, doctor, that you put the arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof, found on chart B-1 under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment, on this chart at a later date in order to shorten the period of starvation of this patient? In other words to shorten the experimental days from 7 to 6?
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you mean that, Mr. Hardy? Or, do you mean to apparently shorten the experimental days by indicating upon the records kept a shorter period of time?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor, that is what I mean to convey.
A: From the curves of the weight it is visible so clearly when the experiment was started that it would be absolutely senseless to attempt a thing like that.
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor, can you state at what time during each day the weight of your experimental subjects was taken?
A: The weight, I believe was taken in the morning or during the morning, during the forenoon.
JUDGE SEBRING: Then if that be true the first day upon which hunger and thirst, that is, the fasting period started, would not indicate a loss of weight, would it, doctor? There would have to be an interim of 24 hours before there would be any recorded loss of weight, if weights were taken each morning?
A: Well, here for example is the weight determined before the beginning of the experiment. Then the person suffered hunger and thirst for 24 hours and then the next weight is 2.5 kilograms less, that is 5 pounds. Then 24 hours elapse and then 2 kilogram less, and then 24 hours and the person weights 1 kilogram less. In other words, you count upon that person who is hungering and thirsting losing l/2 to 2 kilograms of body weight in the first 24 hours. Now, here by accident it happens that the weight was not determined on the 21st. This alone indicates that the experiment did not begin on this day, because we had to find out the weight before the beginning, If the experiment had actually begun on this day, the experimental subject, in order to begin with a loss of weight of 2 kilograms, would have had. to gain 2 kilograms on the first day of the experiment, from the 21st to the 22nd and that is impossible.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Dr. Beiglboeck, this arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof, under date of August 22 on chart B-1, the 9th day of the experiment, when did you place that mark on that chart? You say that you made it yourself. Now, just when did you do it? Did you do it since you have been here in this prison when you evaluated these charts?
A: I marked this arrow in order to evaluate the charts.
Q: When?
A: I believe that I did it in the year 1945.
Q: 1945?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't do it in prison?
A: No.
Q: 1945? That is one year after the completion of the experiments?
A: Yes. At that time I evaluated them again.
Q: Isn't a chart of scientific experiments supposed to represent things that actually happened and not an order book?
A: Well this was not a document, not from my point of view, but was the basis for evaluation for me. If one conducts an experiment one first takes some notes during the experiment and later on one evaluates these notes.
Q: These were not a document, but merely the record of the experiment kept daily. Is that right? The only records kept?
A: These records were kept in order to obtain the curves of weight and thirst. The rest of the figures were recorded in the notebooks. That is how it is done in every experiment.
Q: Well now, on Chart B-1, under the date 22 August, the ninth day of the experiment, we see a notation that pyramidon had been administered to the subject used. If that is the correct date of the commencement of the experiment as contended by you, was it proper scientifically to start a person out on an experiment of hunger and thirst for a period of five or six days if they were suffering to the extent that it was necessary to administer pyramidon to that subject?
A: At the moment I am no longer in a position to state to you the reason why I gave them pyramidon at that time. If somebody tells me, "I have a little headache today," that is not an illness, after all.
Q: On Chart B-1, under the date line, that is, the first horizontal line, after the heading of the chart, wo note the dates, the 22nd, 23rd 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th 28th and 29th of August. Each one of those dates has been altered. Can you tell me when those dates were altered?
A: They were certainly miswritten by mistake. Somebody made a mistake in writing them down. They were changed in the same handwriting as the original figures. Probably he just made a mistake in writing them down. These charts were filled out in advance. They were fixed on the wall and then the medical orderly went over and wrote the dates for the entire week down. Now, it is entirely possible that he made a mistake and later erased the wrong dates.
You can see from other charts that that is possible. Certainly, the same correction doesn't appear on all the charts. Of course, if some one writes the dates down in advance it is possible that he makes a mistake and, if he made a mistake, he later on corrects it. I consider that entirely possible.
Q: Well, now, you say, under the date of the 21st of August, contained on Chart A-1, that the weight under the eighth experimental day does not appear and that if you had commenced the experiment on that date that the weight would appear. Is it possible that the date — the 21st of August, was erroneously placed under that date and then the date later changed to the 22nd?
A: Please hand me some other fever graphs. Others than these here. The experiments all started on the same day.
Q: I desire to check this one now. We'll go to the others as we come to them, Doctor.
A: The experiments all began on the same day as far as the first group from 1 to 32 is concerned. All of them. What happened here, is, in my opinion, an error of the medical orderly who wrote the dates in advance — who perhaps made a mistake of one day and then, on his own, he corrected it later on.
Q: Let's go to the next portion of the chart. Now, this experiment you contend began on the 22nd day of August and lasted until the 27th day of August, That is, the experiment lasted five days. Is that your contention? 1, 2, 5, 4, 5 days?
To indicate the end of the experiments, Your Honor, in a hunger and thirst experiment, the subject being given no food or water, will indicate no intake in the section of the chart below the black blunt line — that is, the vertical blue lines which indicate an intake on the part of the subject used do not appear in a hanger and thirst experiment, and when the blue vertical line appears for the first time that indicates that the patient or subject has received food or water, in this case, water.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you agree with that, defendant, that explanation? Do you agree with that statement?
THE WITNESS: Yes, blue means intake of liquid and red means elimination.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Now, on the 27th of August, indicated on Chart B-1, the 14th day of the experiment, do you contend that that was the last day of the experiment or the end of the hunger and thirst of this patient Franz?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you kindly tell the Tribunal what the red arrow running vertically, with a red circle on the end thereof, found under the date 27 August on Chart B-1 under the 14th day of the experiment, indicates?
A: It means that the experiment was terminated.
Q: Now, in that same block under the 27th of August, on Chart B-1, the 14th day of the experiment, appears some pencil notations which indicate, I assume, that this patient was rather ill and that you gave him 100 cc of sterofundin, 40 cc of glucose and 10 cc of calcium, by vein. Is that correct?
A: As far as I can tell from the blue line, he must have received at least 500 cc intravenously, but it is possible that some physiological salt solution was added to this. Glucose he received in order to give him some nourishment to give him the first calories, and calcium he received —
Yes, I gave them calcium because of the muscles. Because of the oversensitivity of the muscles, this strong reaction that I have already described before, I gave calcium in all these experiments in order to calm the muscles. You will probably find that on many of the charts.
Q: What is sterofundin? Is that a heart stimulant?
A: Sterofundin?
Q: Yes.
A: Sterofundin is a trademark for a liquid which is something like a physiological table-salt solution. I should say it is a sort of Ringer solution.
Q: What is its purpose?
A: To introduce liquid.
Q: Now, on the 27th day of August, which was the last day of the experiment, indicated on Chart B-1, we note, that is, under the black blunt line and above the black broad line, the blue line running irregularly from left to right which indicates the temperature of the patient has exceeded the normal temperature rate and has gone up considerably. Now, was that patient very ill on that day?
A: Well, one really cannot talk of considerable increase if somebody has a temperature of 37,6. The intravenous injection of salt solution brings about a slight rise in temperature regularly. That can be seen in the most healthy person. One even can observe that the physiological table salt solution, if intravenously injected causes the temperature to rise to 38 or 39 degrees. That is not a sign of illness. That is just the reaction. Moreover, if this should have happened before — and that seems to me more probable as I just see now in the case of persons who are thirsty, one sees frequently that they have slight rises of temperature. That has been known in world of medicine for one hundred years.
Q: Well now, tell us, Doctor, in these charts we note, under the date the 29th of August, on Chart B-1, the dates 30th on Chart C-1, then the 51st on Chart C-1, then the 1st of September on Chart C-1, that the patient received a considerable amount of water and food but the lack of indication of urinary output in the last days of the experiment? On the last day of the charting of the subject's condition?
A: Please show me the black notebook. Then, I can tell you exactly how much urine the patient eliminated on the 29th. The 29th —
Q: Or was this one of the patients who throw away his urine?
A: I know now, The 29th — from that date on, the urine was no longer saved because we no longer made the the analysis of the urine.
Q: Now, the entry on September 3 on Chart C-l, under September 3, indicates the weight of the patient on the 3rd of September to be 61 kilos, and the Tribunal will note that the weight of the patient here is indicated on the third line under the graph section of the chart as opposed to the indication of weight on the Charts B-l and A-l where the weight is indicated on the third line from the head of the chart. They have two places to indicate weights, and on the third chart, namely C-l, they merely placed the weight down here rather than on the top of the chart. They placed it down at the bottom — the third line under the graph section. This weight, 61 kilos, indicates that the subject was still four pounds underweight. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, now in the space under 3rd September under Chart C-l the 21st day of the experiment appears English translations which indicate that the weight of the patient on the 12th of September was 62 kilos, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that entry in ink made under the date 3rd September indicating that the weight on the 12th September was 62 kilos made?
A: That was made on 12 September. I let them carry on the fever curves only for a short time afterwards, because there was no reason later on the person who was feeling fine to measure everything quite exactly, and on the 12th of September I had the final weights taken for the most part, because then I gathered the charts and took the charts to my apartment, that is where I was living, and therefore on the 12th of September I had the weights taken, and if I could ask you again to give me that notebook, on this occasion I can show you right away that these figures were written down here. You see, for instance, the figures written down by the French medical student. You see I shall show you some of them—I wrote them, for example—
Q: In the black book, which coincides with the registration of the weight under the section 3 September on Chart C-1?
A: The weight is noted down only here.
Q: When was that information put on Chart C-1?
A: On the 12th September 1944.
Q: Is it in the black book?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because the weights are recorded only here on these curves, and in the black book they put down the amount of urine, the specific weight of the urine, the BH determination of the urine, the blood analysis, etc. and similar things. The weight was marked on these curves here.
Q: Is the black book supposed to be the scientific record that has all the particulars of the experiments contained therein?
A: The black book is not the notation of the scientific values, but only a part of the notations. Every person who took part in determinations had his own notebook, you can see that quite clearly. One had a grey notebook where he put the nitrogen values, another one had a notebook where the salt values were put down, and then Bielwein or Wolocek, one of them, I believe it was Bielwein, looked at these notebooks every day and marked it on these charts here. From that time —
Q: What does the word "den" in German mean, which is written before the date 12 September and 62 Kilos, which is indicated under the date 3 September on Chart C-1?
A: "The 12th September 1944." That is another expression for saying "On the 12th of September." A Frenchman wrote it, and occasionally he might have used a somewhat more unusual expression.
Q: You mean a Frenchman put that notation which appears on 3 September 1944 during the last seven months of this year since your trial began?
A: Since the 15th September 1944 I have not seen those Frenchmen. Through my defense counsel, I put in application through the Secretary General already in December 1946 that they should look for these French Medical students as witnesses for me, and I would consider myself very fortunate if they could be found, for at this moment the identification of the handwriting and the curves would be made possible in a much more simple manner than possible under the present circumstances.
Q: I have one more question with these series of charts, Doctor. Under date 3 September 1941, the very first day we find the temperature lines, the program temperature line, intersects the pulse line, that is the red pulse line. Now, isn't the crossing of the temperature and pulse curves rather significant cause for worry?
A: Well, the important thing is to what extent this takes place.
Q: And I am informed that clinically the crossing of the temperature and pulse curves is a deadly sign, is that right?
A: Well, Mr. Prosecutor; you probably got some insufficient information here. If a person has a pulse of 100 that is not a deadly sign.
Q: If the pulse curves and fever curves intersect is that a sign that would give a clinician cause to worry about his patient, would he have a little more cause to worry about his patient than usual?
A: I don't know whether this pulse was not taken after the experimental subject happened to have taken a long walk. But you see that later on the pulse was taken several times; and then this dead person has a pulse of 80 and then 60.
Q: I didn't say the person was dead; I asked you whether clinically the intersection of the pulse curve and the fever curve would give the clinician cause for worry?
A: No, I can't say that just like that. If before a person has a temperature of let us say 37 and he suddenly sinks to 34, and his pulse rises from 80 to 150, then that is a sign there is disease here; but these are physiological deviations you see here.
Q: Let's go on to Case II; Doctor. Case No. II contains four charts — No. II; and I request the Tribunal mark them A to B-a, C-2 to D-a.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I hope that going over the next two charts will not be as extensive as the first one, inasmuch as going over the first one it was necessary to acquaint the Tribunal with the charts and explain them so we can discuss them.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for a few minutes.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)