1947-06-12, #3: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

WILHELM BEIGLBOECK — Resumed
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

DR. STEINBAUER: How many liver punctures can you see in this chart?

THE WITNESS: It will take me quite a while to find them. I believe, however, I can remember even though I only have a vague recollection; there were eight.

MR. HARDY: I suggest that when he names the case where there was a liver puncture, he will state the case number.

THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness observe that when a liver puncture is named, he will state the case number.

THE WITNESS: Numbers 12, 13, 20, 24, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 38; that is all.

BY DR. STEINBAUER:

Q: The Prosecutor showed you a number of charts, I should like to ask you now to look at the charts which he did now show you; the first was No. 2, so let us discuss No. 1. Tell us briefly how it was and how long this person was in the experiment and especially if he drank water. I consider this last point especially important.

A: I believe No. 2 has already been discussed.

Q: Yes.

A: Yes, No. 2. I think for certain that he drank water once between the 25th and 26th.

Q: And the next one, No. 5?

A: No. 5 certainly drank a larger amount of water between the 26th and 27th. It is quite certain in this case. In 24 hours he went from 57.2 to 57 Kilograms, a loss of only 200 grams. That is impossible.

Q: And then 6?

A: I believe that he observed the conditions of the experiment the whole time, and it was interrupted on the fifth day.

Q: No. 10, where there is no number on it?

A: No. 10 is a Schaefer case and there is no question of drinking water against the rules. The next one which is not marked is No. 12. On the 4th day of the experiment, from the fourth to the fifth lost 100 grams, so he drank at least one half liter or three-quarter liter of water. From the 28th to 29th he not only does not lose, but he gains 600 grams. I must assume on that day he drank at least a liter of water. That is a case where I would be certain that he drank on and one half to two liters of water, and what I figured out theoretically would correspond to that.

We have discussed No. 13, we have discussed No. 14. Of course, in the cases which we have discussed here some drank water, without its having been mentioned expressly, and I shall put this in the statement for the Tribunal which I shall write down about this matter of weight.

No. 15 has not been discussed. On the 4th day of the experiment, weight was 55.9 kilograms and the next day 56 Kilograms. That is also an increase in weight. He had 500 cc of sea-water for six days in the experiment and drank at least one liter of fresh water.

No. 16 is a typical case where the sea water drinking had the same effect. He got so much fresh water in between that he hardly had any loss at all, at least in the beginning. From the 25th to the 26th he loses only 400 grams. From the 26th to the 27th his weight remains the same. From the 27th to 28th he loses 200 grams. That is no of the cases who drank water constantly.

Case 19 on the second day weighed 48.7 kilograms, on the third day 48.2; on the fourth day 48.1, and on the fifth day 48.3, and then he starts to lose weight and was in the experiment for two more days. That is another case, he he drank water daily.

He was in the experiment a second time during which he drank water constantly again, his loss from the 2nd to 3rd was 500 grams; 3rd to 4th 200 grams, then the experiment was interrupted for the second time because he failed to carry out the experiment.

No. 20 from the 2nd to 3rd day he loses 400 grams, this is much too little. From the 4th to 5th day he loses 100 grams; after the 6th day the experiment is broken off. He was also in the experiment twice. The second time for five days he lost a total of four kilograms and from the 2nd to the 3rd day of the experiment shows an increase of 100 grams. He failed to conform to the conditions of the experiment for the second time too.

Case No. 24 from the 3rd to 4th day loses 200 grams, from the 4th to the 5th day he loses 300 grams, from the 5th to the 6th day he loses 300 grams and then for two more days about 1 kilogram per day and then the experiment is broken off. The experiment lasted for nine days, bat the total loss of weight was six kilograms. That is a certain sign that he drank water constantly. Those were the cases which deceived me where I did not know what the cause of the failure to lose weight was, because I could not know that. That is why the experiment was continued.

No. 26 was not discussed either. He had a regular loss of weight. The experiment is broken off on the 6th day.

Case 27 is a typical example. From the 3rd to the 4th day he loses 200 grams, from the 4th to the 5th day he loses 600 grams, from the 30th to 31st, 500 grams; another case that drank water.

Case 28, that shows such a slight average loss of weight that one can assume that the experiment was interfered with by drinking water, which he began on the second day and from and from the 2nd to 3rd day the loss of weight was only 100 grams.

At the beginning of the experiment, the losses are usually more pronounced; later the loss of weight is relatively less. This shows he drank small amounts of water every day.

Case 29 possibly drank little. From the 26th to 27th I think that he drank something. The experiment was broken off on the 7th day. In the second experiment, from the 3rd to 4th day he loses 200 grams and the experiment went on only to the fifth day.

I should like to say that in the second group, when I knew their devices from my experiences with the first group, I knew what to do and broke off the experiments. If I had wanted to continue the experiments, I would have done it in the second group too. This I did in the first group only because at first I did not realize the significance of the failure to lose weight.

Case 31. That is a case of a thousand cc, where one would expect relatively great losses of weight. From the third to the fourth day he loses only six hundred grans; from the fourth to the fifth day only three hundred grams; so that one can assume a water intake of one and a half liters, at least.

Case 32 probably cooperated rather well. He was taken out on the sixth day. A careful examination of these charts will show that when nothing was drunk the experiment was always short. Where a great deal was drunk, the condition was such that there was no reason to interfere with the experiment.

Case 33. From the third to the fourth day he loses two hundred grams; from the fourth to the fifth day again two hundred grams, and, nevertheless, it is stopped on the sixth day.

Case 34 is one of the Schaefer group.

Case 35 from the first to the second day loses only five hundred grams although the amount of urine alone has this weight, so that the loss of weight through hunger or through the reduced amount of food in this case and the loss of water through the lungs does not amount at all. He must have drunk something. From the third to the fourth day the weight remains the same. From the fourth to the fifth day he loses five hundred grans although the amount of urine is eight hundred cc greater than the intake of water. These three hundred cc more that he loses must be included in these five hundred so that this means that he drank something. In suite of all the amount that he has drunk, he was taken out of the experiment on the sixth day.

Q: Is that the one with the inflammation of the veins?

A: No, that case was not discussed. That was not an acute inflammation. Many of these gypsies had old skin infections as the picture will show, what medicine calls Vagrant's Skin, from insect bites or going barefoot, and this caused chronic thrombophlebitis. That is not a disease but a chronic change of the veins.

Case 33 has been discussed. That was the one who was taken out on the fourth day.

Case 37 probably from the third to the fourth day drank a little water, probably not very much. On the whole it was one of the better experiments. On the sixth day he was taken out of the experiment.

Case 38 — from the second to the third day the loss of weight of two hundred cc, although the kidneys alone eliminated three hundred cc.. This indicates with certainty an intake of water. From the fourth to the fifth day the weight remains the same. Nevertheless, this case was taken out of the experiment on the sixth day.

Case 39 has already been discussed. That is the 49-year-old who always drank water and actually did not participate in any experiment, really.

Case 40, from the third to the fourth day, increases in weight by one hundred grams. He certainly drank something. On the fifth day he was taken out of the experiment. That was the 16-year-old who was in a very brief experiment.

Case 41 has a relatively slight loss of weight from day to day. His total loss of weight within a six-day experiment period amounts to three kilograms. He begins with forty-nine kilograms and ends the experiment with forty-six. That is one of the cases who was rather clever. He took small amounts regularly and that is hard to prove. It is impossible for a person who is in a similar experiment for six days, when he has less calories than he needs, to lose only three kilograms in this long time. This loss of weight is less than what many people in the Schaefer group had.

Case 42. From the third to the fourth day the weight did not change — or, rather, he loses a hundred grams although the amount of urine was two hundred grams more than the intake. One must assume here again that up to three-quarters of a liter of water was drunk and, although from the fourth to the fifth day he eliminates part of this amount of water and had four hundred cc more urine, the loss of weight is only seven hundred grams.

That is hardly possible. He certainly drank water twice. He was taken out of the experiment on the seventh day.

Case 43 from the third to the fourth day of the experiment gains one hundred/grams; judging by the amount of urine alone he must have drunk five hundred cc of water at this time. Nevertheless, the experiment is interrupted on the sixth day.

And Case 44 is from the Schaefer group.

Q: Now, which groups drank water according to these tables?

A: Giving the subjects the benefit of the doubt, I have calculated that from the group of a thousand cc no one was more than three days without fresh water, not a single person. I figured that out subsequently. From the group which got five hundred cc of sea water about 20 to 25 percent showed good results. Those were all cases where the experiment was stopped in a short time, on the sixth day at the latest. Everybody that lasted longer was someone who drank water; and, to the best of my ability, and using methods which I think any doctor would approve of, I figured out the loss of body weights and I shall hand that statement in in writing later. There is not a single case who lost so much body weight that he was in any danger of damage to his health by loss from water.

Q: That chart can be checked by the curves — that is, an expert can compare them?

A: Yes. The total loss of weight is entered in this curve and that figure is taken from the chart.

DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I should like to show these weight charts to the expert, which are in Document Book 2 and is No. 36. This is a photostat. If I may submit them now so that they may be show to Mr. Ivy and so that I may ask him questions about these charts, I will give it an exhibit number later. No, it will be Exhibit 23.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may present them to the witness in due time.

JUDGE SEBRING: As I understand your statement, doctor, you have certain weight charts which you would like to have the expert who is going to be called by the prosecution see and study, prior to the time that he takes the stand so that when it comes time for your cross-examination you may propose to him hypothetical questions based upon these figures and then you will then save time because he has had them available for study.

Is that correct?

DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, you can consult prosecution to see when they can be submitted to Dr. Ivy, the expert.

DR. HOCHWALD: I shall do my best to get it through to Dr. Ivy, but, inasmuch as he is going to take the stand at one-thirty, I do not think it will be possible for him to study these charts before this afternoon. Possibly, if defense counsel will submit them now, Dr. Ivy will be prepared to answer questions submitted by defense counsel tomorrow.

THE PRESIDENT: It may be submitted to the expert, Dr. Ivy, and he will consider them when possible.

DR. STEINBAUER: It is missing in your document book, Your Honors.

JUDGE SEBRING: What number did you give that?

DR. STEINBAUER: 23. This document consists of two parts, a photostat chart and a typewritten chart. The typewritten chart I have taken from the cross-examination by Mr. Hardy. It contains the experiments which were repeated.

Those are cases 11, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 29, and 31. I repeat, 11, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 29, 31.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand that those numbers refer to the experimental subjects; is that correct?

DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, the subjects, according to these charts which we have discussed today.

DR. HOCHWALD: I just note that this typewritten sheet is only in German. Possibly Dr. Steinbauer has some list for the sake of the Expert Witness which he could and over.

DR. STEINBAUER: We can see from this big chart there are only a few figures — a weight chart; there are none in English.

DR. HOCHWALD: Only the typewritten chart has an explanation to the numbers, and is given in German. I only want to know if you possess a translation.

DR. STEINBAUER: Because of the lack of time, it was not possible. It has not been translated as yet.

JUDGE SEBRING: I would suggest that if the translators have a copy of the German, one page I examined, they have written in pencil the English translation of the German text on that shoot.

DR. HOCHWALD: I will try to get the translations.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the Counsel have any further questions?

DR. STEINBAUER: One very brief question.

BY DR. STEINBAUER:

Q: You testified about giving drinking water orally or intravenously, and you used various signs for that; one sign in the Chart is "HP". You said that was Hypotonic table salt. It was thought that that meant brain punctures, but I want you to state this "HP" is always at the end and has something to do with the interruption of the experiments.

Would you please with the aid of the chart show me very briefly where this "HP" is, that it is at the end of the experiment?

A: Yes, the "HP" also means that the experiment was interrupted. There was no puncture of the brain, in any cases, and I never in my life performed a puncture of the brain. It was a Hypotonic solution that was introduced. It is Oralor Parenteral; Oral means through the mouth, Parenteral means the introduction through the veins.

DR. STEINBAUER: I have no questions about the chart, but I should like to ask questions in the direct examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is almost time for the recess. The redirect examination will wait until the close of Dr. Ivy's testimony.

The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.

(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed until 1330 hours, 12 June 1947.)