1947-06-18, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please take their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

DR. SAWLIK (Counsel for Defendant Hoven): Mr. President, I request the Tribunal to rule that the Defendant Hoven may remain absent from this afternoon's session, in order to prepare his defense.

THE PRESIDENT: Upon request of counsel for the defendant Hoven, the defendant Hoven nay be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon, in order that he may consult with his counsel and prepare his defense.

DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, I ask that the defendant Pokorny be excused from tomorrow's session, for the same reason.

THE PRESIDENT: On request of counsel for the defendant Pokorny, the defendant Pokorny may be excused from attendance before the Tribunal during tomorrow's session, in order that defendant may consult with his counsel in preparation for his defense.

Counsel may proceed.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I do not believe that the Tribunal has ruled on my objection to the use of these notes on the part of the witness, Haagen.

DR. TIPP: Mr. President, I emphatically object to this application by the prosecutor. You will recall that the witnesses for the prosecution had a large number of notes before them, as, for instance Professor Ivy, and had to have them before them. The defense made no objections to the way in which the prosecution handled its witnesses and I think there is no rule that the prosecution would allow the witness to have notes before him.

THE PRESIDENT: I will address a question to the witness.

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Q: Witness, did you prepare the answers to the questions which you were consulting in answering the questions asked you, or did someone else prepare those notes?

A: The answers could have been prepared by no one else because I, alone, know about these things. Primarily these are scientific and medical problems of a specialized nature —

Q: Witness, just answer the question: Did you prepare those answers or did someone else prepare them?

A: They were all prepared by myself.

THE PRESIDENT: Objection is overruled. Counsel may proceed.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, then it is my understanding that the Prosecution does not have the right to see the notes from which the defendant is testifying?

THE PRESIDENT: Not at this time. On cross-examination counsel may propound questions which may require the notes to be shown to the Prosecution.

MR. HARDY: Would it be possible to give the interpreters a copy of the questions and answers? The interpretation might be considerably lessened and made easier if they used such answers and questions.

DR. TIPP: Mr. President, that would mean that I would be obliged to stick to the questions and answers as they are down here.

THE PRESIDENT: I think it is unnecessary. We will proceed as we have been doing heretofore.

BY DR. TIPP:

Q: Witness, after this interruption we shall continue in our discussion of the last mentioned document. Now, I will turn to a new document. Please take a look at NO-125, Exhibit 194 of the Prosecution, which is a letter from you to Prof. Dr. Gutzeit. In the first paragraph, regarding the fact that Herr Dohmen will come, I quote:

We shall then review all common Hepatitis questions and perhaps also set up the experiments together.

I assume that the Prosecution immediately construed the word "experiments" as a criminal human being experiment and I want to know what experiments you were thinking of here.

A: This letter of 26 June 1944 I have before me in which, in the first paragraph, experiments are mentioned. What was meant here was animal experiments and microscopic examinations, but under no circumstances experiments on human beings. In connection with Dr. Dohmen's visit to me there was no thought of any such experiments. That can be seen from the next sentence, where I write:

I cannot at present definitely answer your inquiry about human experiments.

Q: Witness, you write further in the same document, that you have already arranged with Herr Kalk, that you should undertake that type of experiment with your material. Now, when you use this word "material", what do you mean? Did you mean human material—experimental subjects, in other words?

A: Our materials were the virus for Hepatitis which we insulated. This phraseology has nothing to do with human experimental material.

Q: Witness, can you say from this document how you would imagine that these transmission experiments would take place, of which there is mention here?

A: After we had isolated the virus and had some notion of how the transmission was to take place, it was, of course, necessary to close the circle and to undertake to clarify the transmission to human beings. On various occasions Professor Kalk and I had discussed the progress of the work and since both of us, he as a clinician and I as an epidemiologist, were interested in clarifying this important question, we also discussed it. However, as I said, this was only a discussion, without our arriving at any specific plans. We were agreed that we should carry out such experiments but that only volunteers would come into question as experimental subjects and they would be persons of some intelligence, so that they could observe and set down in writing their own subjective reactions.

We were thinking, primarily, of students from the Wehrmacht, namely from the Wehrmacht Student companies. Moreover, clinical examination and observation was absolutely necessary and this again could only be carried out in a clinic, or a hospital. Thus, as I have said, we were thinking of students as the persons who most appropriately met all these necessary pre-requisites.

Q: Now, witness, the next document in the same document book, page 14, Exhibit 195 of the Prosecution, Document NO-126. It is a letter from you to Kalk, of the 27th of June 1944. It is addressed to Oberstarzt [Colonel, Medical Corps.] Prof. Dr. Kalk with the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services, Saalow. You said this morning that your collaboration with Kalk, Buechler and Zugschwert, had no connection with the belonging to the Luftwaffe; but from the address of this letter the Prosecution will indubitably conclude, since it reads:

With the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services

that you turned to Mr. Kalk because he was a member of this office. Can you please explain this?

A: It is a simple matter to explain. This letter has nothing to do with Kalk's official position as consulting specialist for internal diseases. Kalk had been bonded out in Berlin, and since I was in Strassburg I did not know where he lived but I did know that he had an office with the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services and that by addressing the letter to him there I would stand the best chance of contacting him. That is why I wrote to that address.

Q: Now, witness, in this letter you write:

I must proceed as soon as possible with the experiments on human beings. These experiments, of course, should be carried out in Strassburg or in its vicinity.

Here the Prosecution exceptionally explained this sentence, on 9 June 1947, on page 8786 of the transcript, and said that this reference to the vicinity of Strassburg refers of course to the concentration camp Natzweiler. Now let me ask you-did you actually intend to carry out these experiments in the Natzweiler concentration camp?

A: Such work as the prosecution understands under human experiments I never carried out in a concentration camp and may I go into this at greater length when we are discussing typhus. As I have already said, we were thinking primarily of volunteers, and for the location where this clinical observation was to be carried out, we thought of the clinics or hospitals in Strassburg or those in Freiburg or in Heidelberg, all of which were immediately accessible. This also had the advantage that in all these 3 places there were student companies of the Wehrmacht.

Q: In the next sentence you say:

Could you, in your official position, take the necessary steps to obtain the required experimental subjects?

Now why did you turn specifically to Professor Kalk in this?

A: Kalk, as a consulting specialist for internal diseases for the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe, was in touch with the chief physicians of all Luftwaffe and other military hospitals so that the question of accommodating the volunteer experimental subjects could be most easily solved by him.

It was my view that the use of students from student companies would, as a basic principle, first have to be approved by the Chief of the Medical Service and since Kalk was living near him, it is obvious that I requested him to obtain this approval. Let me also point out that the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe had no fundamental misgivings about using volunteer students for our work, as can be seen from a subsequent decree, which permits protective vaccination with a new vaccine against influenza and which specifies that volunteer students could be used for such experiments.

Q: Professor, you know the general conditions which according to the prevailing principles of medical ethics regarding human experiments should precede experiments on human beings. Were these prerequisites met in your Hepatitis experiments, in your opinion, namely, were experiments on animals carried out before they were carried out on human beings?

A: Counsel, I suppose that I may regard this as a rather general question, since we did not carry out such preliminary experiments in the matter of Hepatitis; I spoke about these prerequisites already in another court; they would have been wet here too; first the conclusion of animal experiments until all possibilities were exhausted, then laboratory experiments, so far as these could be carried out, and finally, of course, also experiments on ourselves would have been carried out. In all such work, not only in testing vaccines but also in examining means of contagion, etc., we followed this basic principle; I may point out that I infected myself with various types of virus, for example, with a virus which produces an inflammation of the brain, and I feel seriously ill as a consequence. Also, I tested an influenza virus on myself and received an inflammation of the lung. Then there were the vaccines we tested on ourselves influenza and new smallpox vaccines and also the typhus vaccines.

I am mentioning all this briefly so that you can see what a matter of course it was with us that experiments on ourselves should be carried out. I am of course not trying to set up some general postulate that every physician or research scientist should follow the same policy.

Q: Then professor, this was a matter of planning and considerations. May I ask whether this plan was ever put into effect as far as you were concerned?

A: I have already said several times that this was simply a matter of planning and discussion or considerations, and that such contagion experiments were not carried out my us. I can only answer this question in the negative. All research in this field was interrupted by the effects of the war.

Q: In the field of Hepatitis did you receive a research assignment from the Medical Inspectorate, witness?

A: I did not receive a research assignment from the Medical Inspectorate but let me point out Document 137, Exhibit No. 189, No. 5, where a research assignment from the Reich Research Council is mentioned.

Q: You said already that your collaboration with Kalk, Buechner and Zuckschwert was independent of your membership in the Luftwaffe. Let me ask you in addition whether this joint work was ordered in any way, directed or supervised by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe?

A: No, there was no direction or supervision by the chief of the Medical Inspectorate. This was a purely research assignment that was entirely independent of our other official or military duties.

Q: Did you ever discuss with Professor Schroeder these plans or the prerequisites that you have just described?

A: I really can't recall details any more. It is possible that we had such discussions but, as I said, after three or four years I cannot recall the details.

Q: Did you talk these matters over with Dr. Becker-Freyseng?

A: At most I discussed acquiring of animals for experiments which greatly interested Becker-Freyseng because of his work with the chief of the Medical Inspectorate.

Q: I understood you to say, witness, that in July 1944 you once spoke with Becker-Freyseng, and I assume that the possibility you have just mentioned also refers to that conversation.

A: Yes, that is correct; Becker-Freyseng and I had only one real conversation; namely, on the occasion of his, visit to Strassbourg in July 1944.

Q: I turn now to the next point; namely, the yellow fever experiments. This charge in the indictment has been withdrawn already in regard to Becker-Freyseng by the prosecution, but Schroeder is accused of having taken a part in the yellow-fever experiments that are said to have taken place in the Buchenwald at Natzweiler concentration camps. This charge is based by the prosecution on the fact mentioned in the indictment that Schroeder must have known of these experiments because of his position in the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. Without going into the experiments, may I ask you to describe your papers and work in the field of yellow fever very briefly.

A: In the field of yellow fever I worked in two different periods; the first time in 1931 to 1933 in the yellow fever laboratory in the International Health Department of the Rockefeller Institute in New York whither I had been called as a special associate to breed yellow fever virus; as I have said for the first time I succeeded in breeding this culture and on the basis of this a vaccine against yellow fever was developed which is used everywhere in the world now and which undoubtedly has already saved the lives of innumerable persons.

During the war the Robert Koch Institute of which I was then a member received from the navy an assignment to manufacture yellow fever vaccine — that must have been in the year 1941 — and the president of the institute passed this assignment on to my laboratory; namely, the assignment to produce vaccine. The vaccine was manufactured according to the standard method. I need not go into that.

Q: Professor, where did you get the virus that was used to manufacture this vaccine?

A: I had taken the material with me from the Rockefeller Institute in New York when I left and had kept the virus alive throughout these years because scientific work in this field was enormously valuable. This was an already mutated and attenuated virus which was no longer pathogenic for human beings but was still very pathogenic for animals and for this reason it was characterized by us as highly virulent. I am saying this as an aside to clarify the question of pathogenic and virulent again. The navy, before introducing this vaccine, wished to have its tolerability tested as far as human beings were concerned and there were negotiations on the subject with the president of the Robert Koch Institute and for the navy, with Flottenarzt [Fleet Doctor] Grawitz; and the latter negotiated with the National Health Office and a sanatorium was made available by the Health Office where the vaccinations took place.

Q: Witness, what was the name of the sanatorium?

A: In Berlin, named Wittenau.

Q: I may remind the Tribunal that the witness Edith Schmidt mentioned these vaccinations in Wittenau when she testified here. She said that experiments on human brings were carried out with the yellow fever vaccine at the insane asylum Wittenau.

A: We used about ten persons. We received the serums from the asylum to test this immunizing vaccine and first of all we used the so-called mouse test which first makes sure whether the immunization is complete so that experiments of that type on human beings need not then be carried out. This is a process used throughout the world.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it doesn't seem to me that all this testimony on the background of virus, yellow jaundice and yellow fever is necessary. The question here is whether or not experiments were conducted, as alleged in the indictment, for yellow fever research; were there ever any human being experiments conducted; if so, were they conducted on concentration camp inmates without their consent; were any plans made for such conduct of experiments; were the plans carried out; if so, did the research orders issue from the Medical Inspectorate or from the Reich Air Ministry; or where did they issue from? It seems to me five or six questions along that line would cover the entire field. This Tribunal has heard, considerable evidence concerning the effect of various fevers and so forth. The witness is here to testify as to whether or not those experiments were conducted and whether or not they originated from the office of Schroeder or Becker-Freyseng. I don't see the necessity for covering all these other incidental or immaterial matters.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness testified that the experiments were carried out in Berlin. We will await the next question by defense counsel.

DR. TIPP: If the prosecution has its witnesses testify that human being experiments were carried out without making clear who was responsible for them, I then think Mr. Hardy should not be surprised if I try to clarify this question now.

BY DR. TIPP:

Q: Witness, you said that the vaccine that was tested was tested in the insane asylum Wittenau and that the immunizing effect of the vaccine was made later tested in the mouse test. Is that so, witness? I don't believe it is necessary to describe the mouse test in detail again. Professor Hoering who was a witness for Dr. Rose described this mouse test to the Tribunal at great length. Now, tell me why inmates of an insane asylum in particular were used for those experiments.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, what is the relevancy of that question as to any charge against that defendant or any defendant?

DR. TIPP: Mr. President, I am returning again to what I said this morning. The prosecution has not said on what it bases the charge against Schroeder. If Mr. Hardy will say that the experiments in Wittenau are not being regarded as evidence of human being experiments, initiated by Schroeder, I can drop this whole subject. Before the prosecution so states, however, that is unfortunately not possible, because prosecution witnesses have said that human being experiments were carried out in Berlin, Wittenau. In other words, I do not know whether I can drop this question without having Mr. Hardy declare that these experiments in Wittenau are not used as a basis for any of the charges against Schroeder.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it is quite obvious what the charges are against the defendant Schroeder. I don't think it is necessary for the prosecution to give their closing statement at this time. The defendant is charged with plans and enterprises involving experimentation in yellow fever, epidemic, jaundice, in various concentration camps and on inmates thereof; we have never even mentioned experiments in insane asylums in connection with those experiments. The witness here is the man who is alleged to have conducted the experiments. If he conducted the experiments he can testify whether he did or whether he didn't and who gave him the orders.

I don't see the necessity for going into all those particular matters that are so far afield. We have had expert witnesses testify on each field. We have got Gutzeit and Schmidt and various witnesses for Rose and the defendant Rose himself. Now, the point is whether or not this witness can testify as to the fact that Schroeder gave him orders to conduct experiments or whether Schroeder gave him the research assignment or whether Becker-Freyseng gave him the research assignment and were the experiments conducted on human beings in a concentration camp as alleged in the indictment, upon people without their consent. I don't see the necessity for continually asking the prosecution to give a full closing statement at this time. It is obvious if he has documents to discuss that is perfectly material and the significance of various documents I can see that — but I can't see the materiality of this other evidence.

DR. TIPP: If I understand what Mr. Hardy said, he said that the experiments in Wittenau are not being used as a charge against Dr. Schroeder, but if the experiments in concentration camps are part of the charge against Mr. Schroeder then I can conclude that these experiments in the Wittenau insane asylum are not included in the charges. Perhaps I misunderstood Mr. Hardy, but in any case that seems to be the meaning of his statement. Now, if I have understood him correctly, and Mr. Hardy can answer that with yes or no, then I can drop all of the questions of the experiments in Wittenau. I don't know why he doesn't say so.

THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand that counsel for the prosecution has stated the alleged experiments on inmates of those insane asylums are not included in the charge against any of the defendants.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have participated in drafting the indictment and I can't recall any language to that effect.

JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, do you now make the statement they are not included within it?

MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor.

DR. TIPP: That is what I wanted to hear.

BY DR. TIPP:

Q: All right, then we may drop the question in regard to Wittenau, and let me ask you further, doctor, you said that the Robert Koch Institute received the assignment from the Navy to produce yellow fever vaccine. However, there are a number of documents here showing that you also received a research assignment from the Medical Inspectorate, a research assignment in the field of yellow fever. This is in Document Book No. 12, and please turn to page 80 in the English and 79 in the German text. Here is Document NO-137, Prosecution Exhibit 189. This is a letter to the Rector of the University of Strassbourg of the 7th of October, 1943. This document contains the research assignments that you received in detail. Witness, this contains your research assignments and it includes one from the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. Do you have this document before you?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: Will you please tell us what the subject of this research assignment was?

A: This research assignment was an assignment to produce yellow fever vaccine. This was an assignment made by the Medical Inspectorate as can be seen by the letters where they refer to the Reich Air Ministry, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, and Medical Inspectorate.

Q: Now you said that the assignment was given to the Robert Koch Hygienic Institute and Hygienic Institute of the University of Strassbourg, and to you as a member of these two institutes, is that not so?

A: Yes, that is correct; that goes back to Dr. Rose's suggestion. The first assignment did not affect me directly but only the Robert Koch Institute, but since it concerned the manufacture of vaccine it was referred to my laboratory. Only after I moved to Strassbourg did I receive an independent assignment of my own, or at least my institute did, and this was extended once or twice up to the year 1943, when Africa was lost, and at this time the Medical Inspectorate requested me not to produce any more vaccine but to keep all of the apparatus available that was necessary for such production, so that production could be started again later at any time.

Q: Witness, did you ever use human beings to test your yellow fever vaccines that you produced, within the meaning of the indictment, or, and this is the second question, did you ever receive any orders from the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe to carry out such experiments?

A: No, but I should like to say the following: The experiments of the sort that the prosecution charges, namely, that first a vaccination is carried out and then the person is injected with pathogenic germs to test the efficacy of the vaccination, such experiments could not have been carried on by us at all because we had no virus that was pathogenic for human beings nor did we need to, because, as I have already said, we had a very reliable procedure for testing the immunizing effects of a vaccine, namely, in this aforementioned mouse test.

Q: The Tribunal will remember that the statement Professor Haagen just made is substantiated by Professor Hoering on the 17th of April, 1947, before this Tribunal on page 6047 of the English transcript. Now, in conclusion I want to put to you a few more documents on these yellow fever experiments that the prosecution put in evidence and from which they draw the conclusion that you did carry out animal experiments, and that the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe was in some way involved in this. Please, witness, in this connection take a look at Document Book 12, page 109, Document 304, Exhibit 315. This is a letter from you of the 22nd of October, 1942, to the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe in Berlin, The subject reads: Research orders, file note 55, and so forth. We have tried to find in this letter some indication of human experimentation but we have not succeeded. Perhaps you, as an expert in this matter, can be of assistance to us.

A: This is my letter of 22 October.

Q: Yes, 22 October.

A: I regret being obliged to say that I cannot understand how any such construction could be put on this Letter. Any specialist can see from this application that this is an application for laboratory equipment, or for the equipment necessary for keeping experimental animals. The enclosures to the letter are very clearly directions for use for the yellow fever vaccine when it is being used for the troops. Such directions are included in vaccines in all of the countries of the world. That these are instructions for doctors with the troops can be seen from the last sentence in the document where it says:

The vaccination is not followed by skin reaction, general symptoms are usually absent occasionally mild headaches or physical discomfort occur. Any more serious reactions, especially manifestations of jaundice or albumine, must be reported immediately to the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe through official channels, mentioning Operation Number.

Now only a medical officer could use official channels so it is obviously absurd to suppose that this could have referred to human experiments.

It was simply instructions for use. I think everyone here in this room has at one time or another in his life been vaccinated and as everyone knows the reaction is very slight, whether it is yellow fever or smallpox, and very little attention has been paid to this matter, although millions of such vaccinations lave been carried out through the whole world.

Q: Now, the next document, Professor, page 112, in the document book, Document NO-297, Exhibit 316. It is a letter with the letterhead of the Minister of Aviation and the High Command of the Air Force, Berlin, 14 July 1943, It is addressed to you; the subject is "Research Order for Yellow Fever Vaccine". You have already said that the manufacture of yellow fever vaccine was stopped after the loss of Africa and I wish to ask you whether that stopping had anything to do with this document here?

A: Yes, this letter of the 14th of July asks the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe to stop further production of yellow fever vaccine, etc., but it is requested to keep the existing equipment as I have already said. In other words, this letter concerns itself exclusively with the production or the interruption of the production of yellow fever vaccine. This letter certainly has nothing to do with human experimentation.

Q: Now, witness, the next document about yellow feVer experiments is on page 113. It is Document NO-139, Exhibit 317. This is a letter from the High Command of the Navy on the 7th of March, 1944, to you. Here mention is made of a Japanese Oberstabsarzt [Colonel] who should get yellow fever samples from Strassbourg. Now, this word, the German word "Probe", translated "samples", has an ominous ring in this trial. Will you tell us just what kind of yellow fever virus was in question here and whether it has anything to do with the planning of experiments on human beings.

A: I have before me the letter of 7 March 1844, is that the one you are talking about?

Q: Yes.

A: T he Japanese army was probably interested in the production of yellow fever vaccine because the war in the Far East was being carried on in an area where yellow fever was present. We know that the yellow fever mosquitoes live there but didn't know much about the extent of the sickness. However, during the war, the widespread transportation spread the disease. At any rate, I assume that the Japanese army wanted to produce this yellow fever vaccine for that reason and a Japanese Oberstabsarzt came to Germany to get such a fellow fever vaccine virus strain. This event also seems to have been construed as something criminal. The word virus samples that was mentioned here and which has probably led to this misunderstanding. The German words "Virus Proben" are not to be translated as yellow fever virus experiments or tests, but as yellow fever virus samples. In other words, the German words ''Virus Proben" mean small amounts of the vaccine virus such as institutes send to each other throughout the whole world or which are sent to authorities for them to work on them and do whatever work they want to do. This then is the turning-over of a virus strain and has absolutely nothing to do with experiments of any sort.

Q: Now, witness, the concluding question in this matter. With whom did you negotiate in the Medical Inspectorate regarding the production of this vaccine?

A: Negotiations about this production assignment were carried on, first of all, with the hygiene referents. That was Stabsarzt [Staff Surgeon] Atmer, then the department chief, Dr. Martius, and then, of course also with the consulting hygienist, Professor Rose, who, open force, interested himself in these problems, particularly.

Q: Did you ever talk about this production with Professor Schroeder?

A: No, in the entire period during which the vaccine was being produced I didn't even see or speak with Schroeder at all.

Q: Did you talk with Becker-Freyseng about this?

A: No, neither in person nor in writing. At that time, as I have already said, I didn't know Becker-Freyseng at all.

Q: I turn now to the next count, namely, the experiments with T.A.B. Chol.-vaccines. We don't know when these were alleged to have been carried out either and the only document that we have in this connection —

MR. HARDY (interrupting): Pardon me, Your Honor, I didn't get the translation of what the next subject will be.

BY DR. TIPP:

Q: I am turning to the experiments with T.A.B. Chol.- vaccines. I have already said that I don't know of such experiments nor do I know how the Prosecution comes to know of such experiments. The only document submitted in this matter is one that again bears your name. It is in Document Book 12, on page 120, Document NO-130, Exhibit 319. The letterhead is:

Oberstabsarzt Prof. Dr. E. Haagen, Consulting Physician to the Air Fleet Physician Reich — Strasbourg, 4 August 1944.

Subject: Report on the Successes with T.A.B. Chol. — Vaccines.

Witness, please tell us whether this is a report on a large scale human experiment with this T.A.B. Chol.- Vaccines.

A: And this is my letter of 4 August 1944. As can be seen from the letterhead, this is a report that I put out in my capacity as Consulting Hygienist for the Air Force Physician, Reich, regarding troop doctors' experiences with a vaccine that, at that time, hod recently been introduced into the Wehrmacht, namely, a combined vaccine immunizing against typhoid, para-typhoid and cholera, which was manufactured by various German firms. This report was typical of the work of the consulting hygienist, not only for the Air Force physicians, but for all other doctors in the army. All troop doctors' experience reports in the field of hygiene reached me. I want to evaluate what I read there and summarize it and submit it to the Air Force Physician and he, in turn, passed it on to the Medical Inspectorate if he felt that something of scientific importance was contained in one of these reports.

I do not believe that any other construction can be put on this report — namely, that it is an experience report — if one reads through it carefully and objectively. I have never seen a report of an American army doctor in the field of hygiene, but I can't imagine that it differs in any essential particulars from this report. Of human experiments or of criminal human experiments there is certainly no indication in this report. This is simply a compilation of the experiences that troop doctors had.

Q: Now, Professor, we are coming to the last and perhaps the most decisive count of the indictment — namely, the typhus experiments, as the Prosecution calls them. Professor Schroeder and Professor Becker-Freyseng are charged with responsibility for such typhus experiments. There are two groups of them, according to the Prosecution. On the one hand, those carried on at Buchenwald concentration camp by Dr. Ding-Schuler and to a lesser extent by the defendant Dr. Hoven. The second group are the alleged typhus experiments that you carried out in the Natzweiler concentration camp. Before we turn to the individual experiments, Professor, please tell the Tribunal what the hazards of typhus were during the war, especially in the years 1943, 1944 and 1945 when this hazard became acute? Describe it only to the extent necessary in order to make your work understandable.

A: I shall try to be brief, but in order to understand this whole problem one must be given some general information. Typhus is a very serious infectious disease which is included in international medical circles among the diseases which are of general danger and is consequently subject to international control, In cases of such hazardous and dangerous diseases, every state felt the moral obligation to do everything to prevent the outbreak of an epidemic because it is very difficult, once the epidemic has broken out, to combat it and eliminate it. This point of view was embraced, of course, not only by the government officials, but also by the responsible and interested, scientists and physicians because we all, of course, knew how prodigious the danger of typhus is, not only for waging the war but also for the civilian population of the entire world.

Typhus is not only a war epidemic, but once it has taken root in the country it is also a peacetime epidemic which it is enormously difficult to combat.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal is quite aware that typhus is a very dangerous disease that is a. great menace to humans and that it was a menace to Germany during the last war, great danger. I don't think it is necessary to elaborate that again. We have heard it from several. It's not denied.

BY DR. TIPP:

Q: Witness, you heard the Tribunal's wish. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the typhus danger for Germany has already been sufficiently proved. Please go on to the subject itself now. Perhaps you could speak of the usual preventive measures that are used against typhus, particularly as concerns vaccines.

A: To prevent typhus there are, in general, two procedures. One is what I might call the mechanical procedure, and the other the biological procedure. In the mechanical procedure we are concerned with combatting the lice — I shall not go into that — but in the biological procedure we are interested in a protective vaccine. There are various vaccines available, and now to get down to the crux of the matter, I must say that the typhus vaccines that are made from dead typhus virus are not absolute protection against the disease. They may — lead to a milder form of the diseases, but the infection itself is not prevented. Dead typhus vaccine, in other words, has no absolute anti-infectious effect, which, however, is the main point of any vaccine.

We developed a living vaccine, not on the basis of our own experiences and research, but we made use of experiences of others. I should like to mention primarily the work of the French Typhus Research, Blanc, Baltasar, and assistants, Legrer, and Lecolle. When vaccinating a vaccine must be used that gives anti-infectious protection, and in general in the case of virus diseases successful vaccination is also achieved only with living virus. Let me mention the; examples of smallpox, influenza and yellow fever. In all these cases these are vaccines made from a living virus, but it is true that this virus has been mutated, that it is no longer pathogenic for human beings. It's pathogenic characteristics have been suppressed and have disappeared, but the virus retains its anti-infectious efficacy, This change is accomplished in two ways, either by passing the virus through an animal, — this usually effects changes in the virus attenuating it, and sometimes affects mutation in the virus attenuating it, and sometime's affects mutation in the virus. I don’t have to go into that, that would take up too much time.

Q: If I understand you correctly, witness, your roll as a scientist was to develop a vaccine from living virus, in other words from a non-pathogenic virus, but nevertheless had the antigenic effect, namely the effect of protecting the vaccinated person against getting the disease later by infection, is that so?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Now, witness, nobody is reproaching you for having produced vaccines, but it is said you tested the effectiveness of your vaccines in a concentration camp. The prosecution called these virulent, and you say that they were non-pathogenic. At any rate that is the Way I understood the reproach of the Prosecution, but first before we go into this, witness, will you please tell the court how did it ever happen that you in this matter came into contact with the concentration camp Natzweiler?

A: The development of typhus throughout the war was that typhus was not a purely war epidemic, but because of the many transports, military, civilian and prisoner of war, and others typhus had been brought into Germany, too, especially in the overcrowded camps, and lack of sanitary installations, there was considerable danger from typhus, particularly where people assembled who came from the east. I have only to say that in the Auschwitz camp, for example, but also in many other prisoner camps in the east there had already been extensive epidemics. Typhus pressed further and further into Germany. Dr. Rose has already told you how many cases of typhus there were, and this shows what constituted the great danger. Every closed community like a camp is a great source of danger in itself, of the danger of typhus, not only the danger of an epidemic within the camp, but also an epidemic that spreads to the. surrounding civilian population. Most of the concentration camp inmates were used to work outside the camp in factories, and those came into contact with the civilian population, so you can easily sen the danger of contagion. Nov, in brief, the camp commander, and the camp doctor in the course of the spring of 1943 turned to me to ask me whether they could have my assistance in combating this danger.

Q: Witness, a preparatory question, first, did you have any connection with the SS, with the concentration camp, as such?

A: I had no connection with the SS or with the concentration camps or with any office in charge of them.

Q: How come the camp commander and the camp physician of the Natzweiler concentration camp turned specifically to you.

A: As director of the Eugenic Institute I had a rather large sphere of activity in Alsace, and of course it was known in the concentration camps, too that my offices were an Strassbourg. For this reason the camp turned to me for the help it wanted in many matters, including the obtaining vaccines and help in disinfection of the camp, and so forth, matters which perhaps we shall turn to later.

Q: You say then that the camp turned to you because you were the hygienist in the Alsatian district around Strassbourg?

A: That is correct.

Q: You said also that the camp commander or doctor asked for your assistance?

A: Yes, this was an obvious thing for him to do, because I was right there in Strassbourg.

Q: You said further that it was roughly in the spring of 1943 that these requests for assistance were made to you; was there an. epidemic in the camp already, at that time, or why did they think they needed your help?

A: At that time there was no epidemic in the camp, but the general epidemiological situation was such that an outbreak of typhus was expected at any moment, especially since transports were continually coming from the east which were infected with lice, and people who were already infected, with typhus, and other camps in the neighborhood who had already had their first cases of typhus.

Q: Professor, what means did you have available to help these camps physicians; please limit yourself; first of all your vaccines?

A: I have already said that there are various vaccines available made from dead virus, and also those made from living and attenuated virus. Getting virus at that time was very difficult. The superior officers simply could not make the effective vaccines available, and in order to carry out any plans all sorts of decrees and orders existed in Germany for the planning of systematic vaccination should the danger of typhus arise.

Q: Now, witness, you have described your work in the field of vaccine production, namely that of producing a living a pathogenic virus, did you begin this developing and working on your own initiative, or did some other agency refer the problem to you?

A: Living typhus virus was being manufactured in foreign countries at that time in great quantity, particularly in France where they had had a great deal of experience with such living virus. I have already mentioned Blanc, Baltasar, Lecolle and Legrer, and during the war protective vaccines were carried out with such living virus in North africa. There had already been millions of such vaccinations, and of course this permitted experience to be gathered. The fact that the French, who saw this great danger also saw the necessity of such large scale vaccines, and they had also had a few fatalities. As I said, we had to use a virus strain for those vaccinations which was it is true was alive and still pathogenic for animals. In other words, a virulent virus which the pathogenic effect of which on human beings was suppressed to a large extent and that is the essence of all living vaccine manufacture, and it must occupy the central position in our considerations here. You bring about such mutation only by passing the virus through animals, and every specialist knows when the virus is passed through animals it is attenuated there more than by being cultured or bred, for instance, in chicken yolks or by being preserved in a vacuum, or at very low temperatures and only somewhat attenuated in strain.

Q: Witness, you still haven't answered my question fully whether you carried out his work on your own initiative or on the basis of an order, directive or assignment that came to you from elsewhere?

A: In developing this living typhus vaccine —

THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you can answer that question in a very few words. Just answer the question propounded to you by your counsel.

A: This was a research assignment, as I just said, there was no military directive or directive.

Q: Witness, you have already described how research assignments were distributed this morning, and told us that in general the assignment was made on the application of a scientist for such an assignment; now what was the case here, did you work on this problem first and then receive an assignment or was there already an assignment in existence and then you began to work?

A: Oh, I see. All this work was done entirely on my own initiative, and then I saw to it that I got the necessary research assignment so that I could have the necessary funds for the work from the Reich Research Council, and then from the Radical Chief of the Luftwaffe. That is where I had my assignment from.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, before we adjourn may I inquire from the counsel how long the examination will continue, and how long other defense counsels will take in their examination of the witness Haagen.

DR. TIPP: I have already said I will need roughly a day and a half. We have already eliminated some of the questions, I don't know if I can finish this afternoon, but I shall not need so much time tomorrow morning. What time my other colleagues will need I cannot tell you.

MR. HARDY: Do I understand Dr. Tipp is going to take the rest of the day, in spite of the fact that we sit until 5 o'clock?

DR. TIPP: I shall use all of this day, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel desire to examine this witness while he is on the stand?

DR. TIPP: Dr. Nelte just tells me that he will need a quarter of an hour and my colleague Krauss for Rostock fifteen minutes.

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I cannot say definitely now how long I shall need because I do not know how many of the questions I intend to put to the witness will be made unnecessary by Dr. Tipp's examination.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is only asking for an estimate.

DR. FRITZ: One hour.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, during the noon recess will you instruct your witness to answer your questions directly and simply without expostulating on matters. While scientific and important, the Tribunal has already been advised. Kindly instruct him and to explain him to answer those questions.

The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 (Thereupon the noon recess was taken.)