1947-06-25, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please your Honors, the defendant Mrugowsky is absent this afternoon having been excused by the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary will note for the record the absence of the defendant Mrugowsky pursuant to excuse by the Tribunal so that he may consult with his counsel.
Counsel for defense may proceed.
ADOLF POKORNY — resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION — continued
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q: Witness, please comment briefly on the question what you thought about the number of hot houses which would have been needed to cultivate caladium in Germany.
A: Basically I can say that tropical plants grown in hot houses lose their poisonous effect or rather their capacity to produce poison. That is connected with the lack of the natural environment. As for caladium specifically that is a plant of the tropical forest and is subject to very definite conditions of growth which are very difficult. The number of hot houses needed can be seen from the amount of sap which I calculated would be necessary. The plant grows about 1 meter high in a year. Then it needs an area of 1 square meter and weights of about 1½ to 2 kilograms would give 1 kilogram of sap. Therefore, for 10 human beings 273 square meters would have been needed. For 1,000 27,400 square meters. That would be 132 hot houses. Since the letter gives the high figures for 100,000 human beings 13,200 hot houses would have been needed. Since my letter gives the figure of 3 million, a suggestion which could be made only by one insane person to another, I must give the calculations for this figure, too. If it were possible if one wanted to sterilize 3 x 100,000 persons a year, it would have taken 10 years to reach the goal and 6 x 100,000 — it could have been done in 5 years. According to dosage one 79,000 hot houses would have been needed. According to dosage two 151,800 hot houses tropically heated for 5 to ten years. Then comes the path from laboratory and hot house to production which during war time, especially in Germany, would have been very difficult.
Then I knew that I could afford to speak in whatever way was necessary at the time.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, at the beginning of my examination of the defendant Dr. Pokorny, I had the witness describe under what circumstances he grew up and what the circle of his acquaintances was. I also questioned him about the motive for his letter, and finally, I wanted to bring out the points of view on the basis of which he believed at the time that sterilization with caladium was not possible, working on the paper of Madaus and Company. I am convinced that the presentation of this third part of the examination of Dr. Pokorny can be made expediently in the form of an affidavit and I shall submit this affidavit later and I assume that the prosecution will give their approval.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may present any affidavit by the defendant Pokorny, for consideration by the Tribunal and the prosecution, when it is prepared.
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q: Witness, I have only one more question to put to you. Do you believe, from your point of view, that the attempt to use caladium for sterilization was impossible and that, on the other hand, your motive was successful?
A: According to the documents which have been submitted so far — for example, the report of Mr. Brack on the 28th of January, 1941, or the testimony of Dr. Romberg that, in Holland, a thousand Jews were castrated and a thousand were given medical certificates about this, the beginning of the Clauberg experiments at about the same time — one can see that, at this time, this problem interested authoritative circles very intensively and that such experiments and castrations were in fact carried out. Now, in October, 1941, my suggestions appear which, as can be seen from casual connections, aroused a certain interest and the authorities concerned took an interest in my plan. The X-ray experiments of January, 1941, were dropped. Now, in October, 1943, the witness Chajin Balitzky stated, from testimony of Dr. levy, that 100 Poles were subjected to such experiments. In October, 1943, the project was taken up again where it was dropped in the Spring of 1941.
In the meantime, this impossible project had been under consideration. I cannot assert, but it is probably, that because of this project all these measures were postponed for two years and were, in the last analysis, too late. How many people were spared these measures, whether it was ten or one hundred or ten thousand, I cannot judge.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, this concludes the direction examination of the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any defense counsel have any questions to propound to this defendant?
If not, the prosecution may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Dr. Pokorny, I believe you stated here, during the course of the direct examination, that you found the testimony of Professor Leibrandt most interesting inasmuch as Professor Leibrandt was in a somewhat similar situation in that he also had a Jewish wife. Now, in connection with Professor Leibrandt's testimony, do you agree with some of the reasons he gave for the downfall of the medical profession under the Nazis? You may answer that "yes" or "no".
A: No, I can't answer that so briefly as all that. There's the following differences. Professor Leibrandt was married to a Jewess, whereas I was divorced and my two children were the cause of the measures to which I was subjected. As for the deterioration of the medical profession in the Third Reich, I realized that as well as many other people did.
Q: Well, was medical education and training influenced by the Nazi administration?
A: Will you repeat the question?
Q: Was medical education influenced by the Nazi administration?
A: I had finished my training at that time, but I had an opportunity several times to talk to medical students and I made some observations myself at the clinic at Prague and I observed that the students were called upon for all kinds of exercises, meetings, roll calls, so that they had little or no time for studying.
At the surgical section at Aue I once had four medical students from the student company in Leipzig. I assigned them to the operating room, etc. All four of them came to me and asked me to recall this assignment so that they would have time to study which they did not have at the University. This request shows that the time of the students was filled with other things than they themselves wanted.
Q: Well, did the agitation of National Socialism influence physicians' organizations?
A: I have described what measures I was exposed to through my professional organization. Yes, it exercised an influence on the doctors — on myself, for example.
Q: Did you believe that Nazism would lead to disorganization and downfall of the then existing medical associations and organizations?
A: The organizations no longer consisted of elected persons, but of persons put at the head of the organizations by some order. Consequently, it was not clear whether these people held these positions because of personal efficiency or perhaps because of other factors.
Q: During the course of Professor Leibrandt's testimony, he mentioned that Action Conti was one that started earlier in 1943 which instigated and directed persecution of doctors who were either foreigners or of so-called "mixed blood" or persons related by marriage to Jews. Did you understand that to be the same as Professor Leibrandt had outlined for the Tribunal?
A: I heard of this action Conti for the first time here. I did not know the name. I think you are mistaken. I think this was earlier than 1943.
Q: Yes, it was 1943, Doctor.
A: I did not know the name. I only knew what was done against myself. That the same things were done earlier in the Reich, I knew that too.
Q: Did you know the defendant Kurt Blome before you came here to Nurnberg to stand trial?
A: No, I believe I read the name in the newspaper once as a representative of the Reich Physicians' Leader, but I am not even certain of that.
Q: Did you know of any medical organizations, dealing with health and hygiene or public welfare, that were not under the domination of the Nazi Party of the SS?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Had you ever heard of the Fuehrer's School of German Physicians in Altrese in Mecklenburg?
A: I heard on one occasion that there was a school for doctors, that it was very pleasantly situated and that the doctors who wanted to go there had to have certain sponsorship because there were too many applications. I heard that from some doctor at home.
Q: Did you belong to any party organizations, such as National Socialist Physicians Association, etc.?
A: No, neither the physicians' organizations or any other.
Q: Did they harm you in the course of you practice for not having been a member of a Nazi organization?
A: I am perhaps an unusual case, which can be explained only as follows: the measures taken against us in the Sudetenland were so late, 11 months after the occupation of Sudetenland, the war began and because it was at such a late time there was great scarcity of doctors, which probably forced the authorities to disregard these very radical measures. I was, in fact, allowed to practice medicine without being a member of the League of Physicians.
Q:Dr. Pokorny, do you believe that medical experimentation on human beings is ethical if performed on persons other than volunteers?
A: You can imagine that I have given considerable thought to that problem in the course of this trial, but the problem cannot be answered in one sentence. It depends on the nature of the experiments, it depends on the recompense offered them, it depends on whether they are volunteers or not. I think one has to consider every case separately. There are no legal provisions in any country in the World. That must be introduced, on an international basis after this trial.
Q: Do you feel before a doctor should resort to medical experimentation on human beings that he should first exploit experimentation on animals; second, to decide on whether or not experimentation on human beings is necessary; third, to then seek volunteers for experiments and prior to seeking volunteers to warn them of the hazards of the experiments, and then to conduct the experiments in an ethical manner; is that substantially what you believe to be ethical concerning ethical experiments on human beings?
A: Mr. Hardy that is whole series of questions. That animal experiments have to be exhausted before one goes on to human experiments that is a condition sine qua non, and the other conditions are also a matter of course.
Q: What do you consider to be a volunteer for a medical experiment?
A: As it has been brought out in this trial that even experiments in the concentration camps, if the people are asked who wants to volunteer for an experiment which isn't harmful to health and if the people are promised something in return, there must be a definite relationship. I can imagine that people who are volunteers must be informed what the experiment is about, of course. The experiment must be carried out carefully with consideration for the subjects, and my own personal point of view is that I personally would not like to carry out experiments which harm the health of another person.
Q: And then you state you would not conduct a medical experiment unless the experimental conditions were as stated, desirable to you?
A: If I understood the translation correctly, yes, but I am not quite sure.
Q: I will repeat my question, would you conduct a medical experiment if the conditions which you outlined, for an ethical experiment were not fulfilled?
A: No.
Q: Would you conduct that experiment if the conditions were not fulfilled had you been so ordered to do so by the state?
A: That is very difficult to answer. That again is suggestive. If you take my own situation, if I had refused to carry out an order that would have meant my death. That makes no difference, 35 million people died and one more or less makes no difference, but I had the responsibility for my two children. I cannot say today how I would have reacted. That is a hypothetical question.
Q: Dr. Pokorny, you state that you first gained knowledge that sterilization programs were being inacted in order to sterilize eastern workers and prisoners in 1941, is that correct?
A: Yes, September 1941.
Q: You gained this knowledge through one Voigt, spelled v-o-i-g-t, is that correct?
A: Let me correct you, Mr. Hardy. He didn't say Eastern workers. After seven years I cannot remember the words that he used. I testified that I was describing merely the impression that the conversation left with me. I said that in the course of the settlement of the East. One can interpret that in various ways. In this trial since it has not been discussed yet, it is quite possible that this was the wish dream of a psychopath, or that he was actually telling me of an intention that existed.
Q: Do you know what rank Voigt held with the SS or SD?
A: No, I do not know that. His position was surrounded by great secrecy. I tried to find out what it was several times. On various statements I drew my conclusions. Whether these conclusions were correct, I cannot say. I saw a paper signed by Himmler but that was during a discussion of graphology, where he was showing me the signature, and I saw this signature in violet ink. I didn't read it myself.
Q: You are a specialist for skin and venereal diseases, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this patient one of your venereal patients?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have many members of the SS as venereal patients?
A: I can give you the exact members of the SS now whom I treated.
I had four, two of them the lowest ranking with skin diseases, one who always came to me in civilian clothing, but I heard he was either in the SS or SD, because I was warned. He wore the golden party badge. He had a skin disease.
The fourth was this Voigt I have been talking about.
Q: Why weren't they treated by the SS medical services?
A: He was apparently an agent or in some special job. He never wore a uniform. He always wore civilian clothes.
Q: Did they come to you for treatment because they didn't want to report their condition to the SS medical service?
A: I believe I can remember that they brought certificates, similar to public health insurance but they asked me not to use that but to treat them privately. That was one of the cases, even if it was not a venereal disease.
Q: Now, during the course of Voigt's visit to your office you state that he spoke about sterilization by use of Caladium after having read an article publishing in a magazine in your waiting-room, is that correct?
A: Not in the waiting-room. It was in my consultation room. I can describe the situation to you. For reasons of brevity I didn't go into detail before. On my desk there was a pile of magazines —
Q: I don't think it is necessary to go into detail; he spoke to you about sterilization by use of caladium as set forth in an article in "Umschau" and published in 1941, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, after that did he also refer to the article published by Madaus and Koch entitled "Studies of Animal Experiments pertaining to the problem of Sterilization by medication by means of Caladium Seguinum?"
A: No, he did not. The "Umschau" —
Q: Doctor, if you will kindly answer my questions we will get along faster. When for the first time did you read the publication in the experimental magazine by Madaus and Koch? When did you read that for the first time?
A: I can't tell you exactly. Let us say the beginning of October.
Q: Was that before or after the visit of Voigt?
A: It was just before he was dismissed, I think that was the time, but I cannot be definite about the time. You can imagine after seven years that one does not remember these things so exactly.
Q: Well, you stated that your attention was called to the method of sterilization by Voigt, that he had read in your waiting room an article published in a magazine "Umshau"; did you then take time to study this article in "Umschau" and then obtain the publication by Madaus and Koch as published in the experimental magazine, or did you have knowledge of this work prior to the visit of Voigt?
A: No, I got this magazine, that is a specialist's edition, after Voigt brought my attention to this work as one cannot account reasonably unless one is correctly informed about the background.
Q: Well, now, when you had heard from Voigt that sterilizations were going on; you state that his conversation had a great effect on you and that you were rather indignent and shocked; was that the occasion for further study on your part concerning the efficacy of Caladium?
A: Not the usefulness, but the influence of Caladium and whether it was possible. In short a critical consideration of the whole problem as it existed in 1941 and 1942.
Q: The point of hearing about these mass sterilizations, which were intended, you state you were indignent and shocked; then what did you propose to do about it when you started to consider that it was necessary to study the effects of Caladium? I am having considerable difficulty understanding just why you made an extreme effort to study the effects of Caladium when you heard that these mass sterilizations were going on; were you studying the effects of Caladium in order to properly instruct Himmler or Voigt as to just what could be expected if the drug were used?
A: No, I believe I testified to this. After my attention had been drawn to this field, after I had learned of the intentions, after I had seen that the method of sterilization by drugs was impossible in 1941-42, especially by Caladium, I saw the possibility of taking orders or actual steps and I saw the possibility of preventing these plans by making a suggestion which was impossible and which was to keep the authorities busy for a time.
Q: Then briefly after you had heard of this fantastic proposition to sterilize hundreds of thousands of people, you then studied material pertaining to Caladium and determined that Caladium would not in effect sterilize a person; then you dug up the idea that here is a chance for me to extend a proposition to Himmler and then Himmler will attempt to sterilize these hundreds of thousands of people with a useless drug and in effect the people will not be sterilized; is that what you are trying to convey to us?
A: Yes, it would have required enormous preparations, preliminary experiments, as you can see from the documents and an interest was taken in it and finally it would have been discovered that because of the large amount of material needed that is necessary for growing the plant in hothouses and all the conditions, which I tried to describe here but was not able to since the time was restricted, it would have been realized the method was impossible.
Q: Well then you did take into consideration that the Madaus-Koch report stated that no experiments had been performed, on human beings and the report itself states it was effective on human beings, not animals? The Madaus-Koch had only indicated experiments on animals, not on human beings and your proposition was for Himmler to experiment on human beings; is that correct?
A: No, that was what Voigt told me. He told me that and the situation was entirely different, they were already being carried out.
Q: You state in your own letter to Himmler, which is Document NO-035, on page 4 of document book 6 in the paragraph were you outline your ideas and the course which you suggest may be taken and under No. 3 you state:
Immediate research on human beings (criminals!) in order to determine the dose and length of the treatment.
Are you not in effect there proposing to Himmler that experiments be conducted on human beings?
A: I did not suggest them, they were already in progress. In order to determine the dose and length of treatment, it was rather unnecessary as one could figure that out, that was something I wanted to talk about, but I was interrupted. However, as experiments were already going on, I did not know on whom, it seemed to me advisable to me to he advisable to take criminals because the interruption would he the slightest.
Q: Well, then you did in effect propose that experiments he conducted on human beings right here in this letter?
A: I did not suggest it, I recapitulated what Voigt had said, if something is known it could not he suggested by me.
Q: Would you kindly turn to Document NO-035, perhaps I have not read it correctly? Do you have Document Book 6 before you?
A: I have a copy of the document.
Q: Now turn to the paragraph in the document, which reads as follows:
If my ideas meet your approval the following course should be taken:
1.) Dr. Madaus must not publish any more such articles. (The enemy listens!)
2.) Multiplying the plant (easily cultivated in greenhouses!)
3.) Immediate research on human beings (criminals!) in order to determine the dose and length of the treatment—
Now, were those your ideas that you wished to convey to Himmler?
A: You cannot take the individual sentences out of context as then of course the effect is different. You must imagine that I was working from the point of view, how can I make the idea understandable, how can I compose the letter in order to have the desired, effect on Himmler, in order to make this impossible idea plausible to him.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, if I remember correctly, I have already asked these questions which Mr. Hardy is asking now and the Tribunal was of the opinion that they did not serve to clarify the issue. I believe that the Prosecution must be in the same position and I therefore ask that this question not be permitted, otherwise, I would have asked it this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that these questions are entirely different from those propounded this morning by the defense. The objection will be over-ruled. Counsel may proceed. If counsel for the defense feels there are any questions he should ask, he will have an opportunity on re-direct examination of the witness.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: May I ask you, Dr. Pokorny, did you write this letter or did Voigt write this letter to Himmler?
A: I wrote this letter. It is a reaction to the impressions which I was given by Voigt's statements. Just a moment, please, I have not finished my answer yet. I imagined at the time that that would be possible only by giving Himmler an idea, which he would have to think about for months and years in the hope of a sensational success, but an idea which would not have this success. This accounts for the letter being in this form. I quite understand that you do not understand the formulation of the letter, but I have testified it was not possible for us to combat these measures we heard about in any other way than this.
Q: Now, Doctor, I am having a great deal more difficulty that I did before. Now, it is you contention that you wrote this letter and you hoped that Himmler would sit back, read the letter and would be confused he would stop the experiments, which you say were going on and endeavor in two or three years to determine in his own mind whether or not he would use Caladium seguinum to conduct future sterilizations; was that your method to sabotage the effort?
A: Yes, that is what I mean to say. The necessary preparations were so enormous and so difficult that a reasonable method would have required years before it was found, aside from the fact that Caladium cannot be used for sterilization
Q: Just a moment; how much time would it take a person to experiment with Caladium seguinim on one human being?
A: On one human being?
Q: Yes.
A: That was the risk that existed. That could have been done
Q: Just a moment, answer my question before you go into detail. How long would it have taken to perform an experiment with Caladium seguinum on one human being?
A: 218 days.
Q: 218 days? How long would it have taken to get the equipment ready to start the experiment?
A: I have already told you it required fresh sap. This was please, Mr. Hardy, let me finish my answer. This fresh sap cannot be used on human beings, since human beings are not the same as rats, because fresh sap contains tetanus and gangrene, and so forth, I don't need to go into that, it would have required preparation, but because of my botannical knowledge, I knew something about the plant. It is a plant of a group of 27 tropical plants which were formerly used as decorative plants in Europe and are not cultivated any more. In all of Germany only Madaus could have a few of these plants. It is difficult to reproduce this plant for that reason alone and it would be difficult to obtain the necessary number of plants.
Q: Well just a moment. Madaus might have had a sufficient number of plants to immediately go to work so that Himmler could have gotten his plants from Madaus, isn't that correct?
A: I doubt it.
Q: You know as a matter of fact Himmler did send his people to Madaus organization to work there. Do you know that?
A: I saw that from the document.
Q: But you don't think it is possible Himmler could have gotten his preparations ready much sooner or do you think he could have used Caladium seguinum in an experiment on human beings in the same manner he would have on rats?
A: Preliminary experiments would have been necessary, especially extensive animal experiments would have been necessary. What we have here that is a scientific work. That is not even the basis of an hypothesis. One knows nothing about the causative agency. I assume it was a leucocytes. Whether this poison or the poison is one substance or whether it reacts to heat, cold or chemical influence or not, whether it works alone or together with some other substance, those are all factors which would have to be tested and any such test would have taken months so that this experiment in the case of Caladuim specifically would have required an enormous amount of time. Let me remind you of penicillin which went very quickly. With Caladium it is not so.
Q: Try to be brief in your answers, doctor. Madaus and Koch were were known specialists in this field, weren't they?
A: In the homeopathic field, yes.
Q: Were you a specialist in this field? Were you considered to be a great expert in Germany in this field? Had you ever been heard from by anybody in this particular field?
A: I really cannot call myself a big specialist in the field but I had the literature. I had the botannical knowledge and as I have testified I worked for a pharmaceutical firm in Neugiene and was very close friends with one of the very best pharmacologists and I had as much knowledge as I needed for this work.
Q: And you stat that the publication of Madaus and Koch in the experimental magazine which is defense Exhibit 16, that is Pokorny Exhibit No. 16 is unsound scientifically, do you state that?
A: Let us say I hold the opposite view scientifically.
Q: Did you ever see Caladium other than in pictures?
A: I have already said that is one of the 27 plants from the Amazon district
Q: Please doctor, I have asked you a very simple question. I am trying to expedite this examination so that we can finish in a rather short time and I have asked you a very simple question. Did you ever see the Caladium plant itself? Now you cam simply answer by saying yes or no, whether you have read about it or have seen pictures of it I am not interested. Kindly follow my question and make an attempt to answer it specifically and we will be through much quicker and reach an understanding much quicker. Now have you ever seen the plant Caladium seguinum yourself?
A: This is an excellent picture but I have never seen it personally.
Q: Have you ever worked with it?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever look at it yourself?
A: No.
Q: Then you don't know the effect of it other than what you have read in literature, is that right?
A: On the basis of the analysis of the paper it was possible for me to form a judgment of this type of experiment and the effectiveness of the use of Caladium.
Q: Then you are definit in your statement that Caladium under no circumstances would effectively sterilize a person?
A: Caladium cannot.
Q: And you feel you know more about the effects of Caladium than Madaus and Koch?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: Do you know the difference between sterilization and castration?
A: Yes, what kind of sterilization do you mean? There are distinctions there too.
Q: Well is castration distinguished from sterilization?
A: Yes.
Q: Castration is the sterilization of a male or a female individual by removal or destruction of the tissues of the reproductive organ, isn't it?
A: No, that is wrong, removal is not necessary. One merely needs to separate them. There are several methods, the method in use in America —
Q: I said removal or destruction. I didn't say exclusively removal, I said removal or destruction of the reproductive organ. This is the definition given by Albert Schoenberg in Lasaris, and printed in his manual, X-ray Therapy, volume one, and Schoenberg in his manual X-ray Therapy, the definition they give for castration is the sterilization of a male or female individual by removal or destruction of the tissues of the reproductive organ.
A: The definition is essentially correct yes, but castration and sterilization are not synonomous.
Q: Do you exclude the possibility that the use of Caladium might have had a castrating effect or was your research extensive enough for that?
A: In the first place I performed no research at all but if you will think that a young rat weighing 150 grams for 218 days is under treatment and there is no effect yet then you can assume that the drug has no effect.
Q: How is caladium administered?
A: Madaus and Koch used it in two ways, as an injection and per os, by mouth.
Q: Then after reading the Madaus-Koch publication you could not determine that the effect of caladium quite corresponded to a castration? You excluded that possibility entirely.
A: Yes, I can prove that immediately. That was included in what I was not allowed to testify before. According to this work the effect of Caladium on male animals is sterilization but on female animals it is lutenizing it does not destroy but on the contrary it promotes and that is ridiculous.
If a thing is effective, it has the same effect on men and women.
Q: Dr. Pokorny, did you ever hear of a chemist named Taubock, Karl Wilhelm Friederich Taubock?
A: Taubock, no.
Q: I would like to read you an affidavit by Tauboeck who has worked on this drug and worked on it with Madaus concerning the efficacy and see whether or not you disagree with him. This is Document NO-3963, Your Honor, offered as Prosecution Exhibit 528 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: The number you assign to this is identification 528?
MR. HARDY: Yes.
Q: I will turn to paragraph number 3 which outlines the qualifications of the affiant Tauboeck in that he was a biochemist and botanist in the biological laboratory of I.G. Farben. Now, if you will turn to paragraph number 4, and I will quote therefrom:
In the fall of 1942 I was instructed by the director of my laboratory, Dr. Mueller-Cunradi, to devote my time to research on the effective substance from the plant caladium seguinum. At the beginning of November 1942 I was sent to Dr. Schamberger of the Research Institute Grunewald/Berlin for the purpose of obtaining further information. The Research Institute Grunewald was a cover name for a camouflaged SS office. The address was Berlin-Grunewald, Delbrueckstrasse 6. There I was told that this plant was to be used for sterilizing mental patients. In order to obtain further information about the progress of experiments with caladium seguinum which had already taken place, I had to visit the firm Madaus in Dresden-Radebeul, together with Dr. Schamberger and another SS man. This firm had already made animal experiments with this plant and published the results in a medical journal in 1941. I was introduced to Mr. Madaus as Dr. Weiss, so that nobody would know that I was an employee of I.G. Farben. The senior pharmacologist of Mr. Madaus asked us, "You must be a commission from SS-Obergruppenfuehrer [Lieutenant General] Pohl," to which the SS men replied "yes". The pharmacologist went on to tell us that a few days previously Pohl himself had visited Mr. Madaus together with several other people and had mentioned the especial urgency of this work. Furthermore, while visiting Mr. Madaus I checked all the equipment and experiments in the course of one day. By careful examination of sections of mice and rats and of the histological pre parations, I was convinced that the publications of Mr. Madaus were perfectly true.
By this examination I, as a specialist in this field, gained the conviction that sterilization with caladium seguinum is no Utopia, but something which is quite within the bounds of possibility.
On the return journey from Dresden to Berlin the SS men revealed to me that this research was being carried out on the express order of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in order to suppress birth among the Eastern nations. After this fact had been revealed to me, I was sworn to secrecy. I was furthermore informed at the Research Institute Grunewald-Berlin that the first preparations were to be supplied as soon as possible, as the Reichsfuehrer SS had ordered the testing of the new method on inmates of concentration camps to take place at once.
Now, paragraph number 5:
In order to point out the effectiveness and practical possibility of using caladium seguinum as a sterilization drug, I would like first of all to go into the subject of the history of this plant. Before doing so, however, I would like to add that the caladium seguinum is not to be considered as a sterilization drug in the ordinary sense of the word, but as a castration drug. This is evident from the fact that the experiments carried out by the firm Madaus have clearly shown that a destruction of the sexual glands of the experimental animals occurred which is equivalent to the surgical removal of such glands.
And then he goes into the history of the plant, and in paragraph 6 he states:
Inspired by this experience of the Brazilian natives the firm Madaus carried out their experiments on animals. The results obtained by the firm Madaus, which I have seen with my own eyes, confirm the effectiveness of the drug (caladium seguinum) as a means of sterilization for human beings.
And he goes on extensively to give his reasons which Your Honors can read, and I won't take up this time to read now.
Q: Now, do you think that this affiant has also misunderstood the effectiveness of caladium seguinum?
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I ask that the defendant be given an opportunity to read all of this affidavit. There are a number of paragraphs which do not confirm the opinion of the prosecution. This reading might have a suggestive effect on the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel will be furnished with a copy of this translation in German. The Tribunal has it and counsel may have the copy of it, of course, and the defendant may certainly read it.
DR. HOFFMANN: I ask that he be given an opportunity to read all of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes indeed, I said that he will be furnished with a copy of this affidavit in the German language. That is available and he may read it. He may have it and keep it in his file and read all of it, of course.
I see no occasion, counsel, for the defendant to be making extensive notes on this affidavit. He would have a chance to discuss the affidavit later. You desire that he have time to read it, but—
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have only perhaps one or two questions to put to him concerning the affidavit. Defense counsel may well put other questions to him in re-direct examination.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I merely wanted him to have an opportunity to look it over because Mr. Hardy asked his question immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: But he is now making extensive notes on it.
MR. HARDY: While he is reading it over, Your Honor, I would like to call your attention to paragraph number 11 and read that into the record also. The other paragraphs refer to some of the misgivings concerning the use of caladium seguinum by the affiant and the reasons why perhaps some of the tests by Madaus and Koch were unsuccessful. The paragraph number 11 is one that I think is important for the record. I will read it:
As a result of all examples and explanations mentioned I am of the opinion that mass production of a castrating preparation from caladium seguinum in Germany or in the German occupied countries is no dream, but could easily have been put into practice.
Another proof of the harmfulness of the caladium poison is the fact that the Madaus examinations confirmed beyond doubt the castrative effect of caladium despite all the shortcomings already described. All this made me realize at once the criminal character of such research and for this reason did not carry it out as far as my specific order was concerned. The SS, however, took a great interest in this matter. I received my orders as an employee of the I.G. Farben Industrie from the chief of the security police, first through the camouflaged office of the Research Institute Grunewald-Berlin and later direct. I know, however, that the firm Madaus placed their orders through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl separately and am not acquainted with the development of this matter."
Q: Now you, witness, have read this affidavit. Do you think that the affiant is incorrect in that he states that the drug caladium seguinum would have a castrative effect?
A: Quite.
Q: When you wrote this letter, Document NO-035, which is in Document Book Number 6, to Himmler, did you anticipate that Himmler would hand it over to experts for study?
A: That's what I thought, yes.
Q: Weren't you afraid that Himmler might find out that you were making an attempt to hoodwink him?
A: I have two things to say to that. That is why the letter is put in this form, and that is why it says that as a German doctor and Oberarzt [Senior Physician] of the Wehrmacht I pledge myself to secrecy. That I was in danger in this matter I quite realized. There could be two reasons: one, that Himmler wanted to get rid of a person who knew about the secret; and the other, if the swindle had been discovered, then there would have been punishment.
Q: And you would have been in been in serious danger had Himmler realized that caladium seguinum was not effective and that you were attempting merely to sabotage his efforts, is that correct?
A: Yes, one can assume that.
Q: And you were willing to take this chance even though you knew that Himmler would as soon kill a person as not?
A: I was ready to take any consequences.
Q: When did you divorce your first wife, Dr. Pokorny?
Q: In the middle of 1935. The divorce became effective the first of April 1936.
Q: When did the Nurnberg laws go into effect?
A: I do not know. I studied the Nurnberg laws when they became of significance for me, that is, for my children,
Q: Did they go into effect in the year 1935?
A: I do not know. I read them. I was in Czechoslovakia. We didn't have them. They didn't touch me at the time. I don't know whether they were issued at that time. I probably read them in 1939 — 1939, I think.
Q: And you state the reasons for your divorce were not for National Socialistic reasons?
A: Nothing whatever.
Q: Were they for what purpose — or for what reason did you secure a divorce from your first wife?
A: I have testified that our characters developed in different directions.
Q: You mean infidelity?
A: No not infidelity. Those were secondary consequences.
Q: What was your second wife's name?
A: Trux was her maiden name.
Q: How do you spell that, please?
A: T-r-u-x.
Q: And you married her in 1943?
A: September 1943.
Q: Could you tell us whether or not the name Ulzeva means anything to you. Spelled U-l-z-e-v-a.
A: Yes
Q: What does that name mean to—
A: Yes.
Q: What does that name mean to you?
A: That is the lady to whom I was engaged at one time, a Czech lawyer.
Q: When was that?
A: That was about 1936 to 1940. I don't quite understand what that has to do with this trial. I am not being tried because of my divorce.
Q: Just a moment. What was her job? Was she an Aryan and wasn't she a lady district judge?
A: Yes.
Q: Now you have told this Tribunal a story concerning communications by your first wife in the year 1942 and that she was in Prague and called you on the telephone and was in dire need of assistance. Is that right?
A: That was right. I can't give the exact date. It was 25, 26, or possibly 24 January 1942.
Q: Well, that was in 1942, January 1942, And then an SS man or some officer came to you and warned you not to go to see your wife in Prague as he intercepted the telephone message. Is that right?
A: That was on the same day, in the evening. I think it was about 6:30 or 7.
Q: And what did he tell you he would do to you if you went to see your wife in Prague?
A: He said that I would be shot in my consulting room.
Q: What was his rank, do you remember?
A: I don't know.
Q: Captain? Was he a Lieutenant? or a Seargent?
A: He had a black uniform coat. His collar was turned up. He showed me his credentials. He told me what he had to say and went away again.
Q: And then you as a result of that could not muster up sufficient courage to go to your wife's or your former wife's, assistance in Prague?
A: That was not possible since I could assume that my house would be guarded that night and if I had gone out with the car it would not have been necessary to help my wife.
Q: But you were the man who had sufficient amount of courage to write a letter to no less a man than the Reichsfuehrer-SS in an effort to sabotage his sterilization program, knowing fully well that if you were discovered the results would be fatal that your family perhaps would be threatened? Yet, you didn't have sufficient courage to go to the aid of your wife in Prague. How do you reconcile this, doctor?
A: The situation is entirely different in respect to Himmler than the situation I found myself since I knew that my house would certainly be watched and that any attempt to get to Prague would have the most serious consequences.
Q: Now you have stated here that in the spring of 1942 you received an inquiry regarding the production of the drug. What drug are you referring to in that inquiry?
A: I testified that I did not understand this question because I did not know that the Madaus firm had a drug called caladium-D-1. Consequently I did not understand this incident.
Q: Why would Himmler or an SS agency have to write to you to determine the producing of a drug when they themselves had the publications from Madaus and Koch. And, in addition, thereto, they already had men and representatives going to the Madaus Company to work?
A: I wondered about that too. If I had got a paper in my hand filed by Madaus I would have assumed that Madaus produced the drug. That's why I wondered. Besides I think you are mistaken in the time of the document. The first representative to the Madaus firm was later.
Q: Well don't you suppose that Himmler had contacted Madaus after receiving your letter.
This letter is dated October 1941 and there is a letter on page 5 of Document Book 6 which is Document NO-036 wherein Himmler personally addresses a letter to Oswald Pohl telling Oswald Pohl to get in touch with Dr. Madaus about the publications and offer him possibilities of doing research with the Reich Physician SS on xeiminals who would have to be sterilized in any case. Now didn't it seem unnecessary he would have to refer to you when you were, as you state, somebody who had read the publications?
A: I don't understand your question. I wondered at receiving this inquiry. Besides you see a certain amount of success here already. Himmler had gone into the idea if experiments were to be performed they would be performed on criminals in as much as they had to be sterilized anyway.
Q: That's good you point that out, doctor. That is an aid to the Prosecution rather than to the defense. Himmler here is conducting human experiments as you point out, and here you have proposed he continue further experiments with caladium. Well this indicates he is following through the program given to him, as he says in the first sentence of this letter to Pohl:
I read Dr. Pokorny's very interesting memorandum—
Your memorandum had considerable effect on him, didn't it, according to this letter?
A: It was supposed to.
Q: I have no further question your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may redirectly examine the witness.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I have no questions. I should like to call a witness now but I don't know whether it would be expedient or not to call him at this time.
MR. HARDY: If your Honor pleases, is it the witness Trux that will appear first?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. SAUTER (for the defendant Blome):
Q: Witness, I am afraid I have to ask you a few questions arising from your answers to the cross examination by the Prosecution. The Prosecution called you an expert and questioned you about things regarding the medical profession and you answered these questions. Witness do you really consider yourself an expert for such professional questions for the German Medical profession during the Hitler time?
A: I did not answer as an expert. I do not consider myself an expert. I answered merely as a private citizen, as common sense dictates. That my testimony is colored to a certain degree will probably not surprise you since you have learned my life history today.
Q: Witness, I believe you realize that the Prosecution is hardly interested in what you think as a private citizen.
A: I don't know what the prosecution is interested in.
Q: But that is quite clear, witness, you were asked because of special knowledge which you were assumed to have and you answered the questions. Now, I would like to ask you a few questions on this subject. Where did you study?
A: In Prague.
Q: In Prague. Were you born in Prague?
A: No, I was born in Vienna.
Q: You were born in Vienna. In Prague and Vienna. Did you know German conditions of the medical profession, medical science, and the medical faculties before 1933 from your own observation?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: From congresses, visits to the universities. I was the senior member of the dermatological Society in Czechoslovakia. I had scientific contact, not, of course, to the extent that other people did.
Q: Did you attend German universities as a student?
A: No, I only visited them briefly.
Q: What do you mean visit, two hours? Did you just look at the building, or were you there for 6 months to learn how they operated? Please explain that.
A: To be informed about German science and research before 1933, one does not have to be in the anteroom of a university. One can judge that from quite a different point of view.
Q: From Vienna and Prague?
A: Yes, and from the Reich.
Q: But you didn't live in the Reich, you didn't study in the Reich?
A: But as a person of scientific interests, I was informed.
Q: Did you have insight into the medical training, scientific training of young doctors in German universities?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: By visiting a German university here and there, when you can't tell me how long the visit was?
A: Because we had a certain contact with our German colleagues. Dr. Sauter, you will concede that the first German university was formed in Prague.
Q: We don't have to go back to the Middle Ages. I am talking about your own studies.
A: The discovery of America was a very important event. The founding of the first German University was also an important event, and that was in Prague.
Q: You said before that the medical training of young doctors in the Third Reich receded in its level; and you said that on various occasions you talked to medical students; did I understand you correctly?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that? What years?
A: These medical students that was in 1943; the beginning of '43.
Q: '43. And did these medical students in 1943 have insight into conditions before 1933?
A: I can't tell you that. They came from the student company in Leipzig.
Q: But you can judge that, Doctor, if there were students in 1943 studying medicine, then before 1933 they were children, and children are not able to form comparative judgment on the question of medical training.
A: Dr. Sauter, I was not referring to the comparisons which these medical students drew. I was the one who drew the comparison, what I know from earlier, and what I observed on these medical students. There is no purpose in wasting a great deal of this talk on this. One doesn't have to generalize. Far be it from me to run down German medicine and science and the medical profession.
Q: But one cannot deny you can't tell me how long the visit was?
A: Because we had a certain contact with our German colleagues. Dr. Sauter, you will concede that the first German university was formed in Prague.
Q: We don't have to go back to the Middle Ages. I am talking about your own studies.
Q: Doctor, you spoke of the interference by the Nazis in the professional organizations. Did you have any close insight into German professional organizations in the Reich?
A: Yes, they came to us to our great joy in October 1938. If you want the exact answer to this question, I can help you. A certain Dr. Kress came to Aussig, to the KVD, and in the first meeting which we attended it was said that the exaggerated specialization had to be abolished, that the good old German general practioner had to return. I have nothing against a good old general practioner, but any sensible human being will not object to the development of medicine through specialization. The specialist is nothing but the exponent of the clinic in the country, and what he does not achieve he sends to the clinic. Not all the measures which were taken by the German Reich Medical Association were ideal, not to mention what affected me personally.
Q: Doctor, you said that after 1933 people were appointed to the top positions of professional organizations who were no longer elected, but appointed, and consequently one could not judge whether they owed their office to personal efficiency or to other circumstances.
A: Yes.
Q: One of these persons was your co-defendant Prof. Blome.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you mean to say on the basis of your outstanding knowledge of conditions that Professor Blome is in any way responsible for the lowering of the medical profession which you allege took place.
A: I never said that. But you will admit that people were in charge of things of whom we never heard anything.
Q: I am talking about Professor Blome.
A: Just a minute, I will get around to him. We were used to the Head of the Dermatological Society being Prof. Unna at Hamburg, and in France it was Brock or Bauteriere and in America a man named Sutton. Those were names we knew. I was not referring to Dr. Blome on the contrary I am glad of this opportunity to clarify what might lead to a misunderstanding, that the confiscation of my X-ray machine, this measure against doctors with Jewish associations is not the fault of Mr. Blome. I believe the KVD went to the Ministry of Interior and there was a certain Grote, yes, that is the name, Grote, and this man Grote is responsible, not Blome.
Q: Did you go the Reich Physician Leadership at the time? That was your professional organization, represented by the Reich physician leader Dr. Blome?
A: Doctor, I don't think I would have got as far as the anteroom.
Q: But you could have tried. You got as far as Himmler. You could have got to Blome, too. You could have written him a letter. Why didn't you?
A: Dr. Sauter, I had enough experience with the lower offices, and I could imagine what would have happened if I went to a higher agency, and so I never even tried.
Q: In that connection, Doctor Pokorny, you spoke of the Conti-Action. You know about this?
A: I learned about it here.
Q: Did you hear nothing in your home town of a Conti-Action?
A: No.
Q: Then in 1943 in Prague, there was no persecution of Jewish doctors. They weren't taken out of their homes, they weren't removed from their practice?
A: Dr. Sauter, that was already done in 1938 or 39. The doctors were removed as early as '42, since I have testified that my wife, my former wife was sent to a concentration camp in January '42, as I learned later, it was Theresienstadt; and there were a few other things that happened there that I didn't mention.
Q: Isn't that a mistake, Doctor, don't you mean 1943? You say that the Jewish Doctors were taken away in '42? I am informed that that was in 1943.
A: Doctor, you may be right for this country, but let me point out that the whole development of National-Socialism differed in our country and the Reich. Here it developed slowly, but the movement broke over us like a flood; and perhaps I am qualified to judge this since my own divorced wife was sent to a concentration camp in January of '42, and she asked me for help. I know that very well.
Q: Doctor, that has nothing to do with the removal of Jewish doctors. Your wife was an entirely different case than the removal of the doctors.
A: But she was an X-ray specialist, X-ray practioner, and the machinery was taken away. She was not only Jewish, but she was also a doctor.
Q: Do you know on the basis of what regulations that was done? I will make the question more specific.
A: I can't tell you, Doctor.
Q: Was that on the basis of a regulation of the professional organization or was that a Reich law?
A: I cannot give you any information about that. It must have been a regulation which was in effect in Czechoslovakia, that is, in the Protectorate. I can tell you nothing about it. I only know the fact.
Q: You don't know whether the Reichs-Aerzte Fuehrung, or the leadership had anything to do with it, or Prof. Blome had anything to do with it?
A: I don't know anything about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, how much longer will the examination of this witness probably continue?
DR. SAUTER: A few minutes. Perhaps it would be better to interrupt it now.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, is all this extensive examination necessary. I think that it—
THE PRESIDENT: I was about to suggest to counsel that the Tribunal does not see any particular objective in his examination of the witness in his cross examination. I think that everything along the line that is followed so far, at least, has already been accomplished. If the cross examination would take any other line, of course, that would be a different question. I think the Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(A recess was taken at 1700 hours, 25 June 1947 until 0930 hours 26 June 1947.)