1947-06-30, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 30 June 1947.)
GERRIT H. NALE — Resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Your Honors, I have five indexes of the documents, which have been marked for identification and will be offered formally in the English language by defense counsel by numbers. We have the document number, the exhibit and the transcript page in which they appear in the official record.
The pagination of the Death book is ready.
Now, Mr. Nale, I should like you to take the Death Book, which you have made up and indicate to the Tribunal, going through the Death book page by page, the death which resulted as a result of the experiments, that is, to inmates used in the experiments and to explain each death therein as you know it from your own knowledge.
(The Book is handed to the witness.)
THE PRESIDENT: There are two books; what book are you submitting to the witness?
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: I am only going to submit one, Your Honor. The only one he has is the one that refers to this situation. The other one is a Polish and Russian death book which has no connection with the experiments at all.
Now on page 1, Mr. Nale, are there any deaths on that page which refer to people used in the experiments?
A: No.
Q: On page 2 are there any deaths there that refer to persons used in experiments?
A: No.
Q: On what page is the first page where a death appears?
A: Page 16.
Q: Page 16; now which person there died as a result of the experiments?
A: On Page 16 the B.V. inmate 1219, Josef Rufer, born on 9 March 1896.
Q: Now, which subject is he on that page, counting from the top, which subject is he on page 16?
A: The eighth counting from above.
Q: That is the eighth name counting from above, page 16, is the name of a man who died in the experiments; which experiments?
A: That was the first experiment of the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage].
Q: That is the gas burning experiments or the typhus experiment or the poisonous gas experiments; which one?
A: It was the gas burning experiment.
Q: Now do you know from your own knowledge whether that man died or do you know only from your knowledge of the book?
A: I saw this corpse personally.
Q: Now is this one of the men of the group that volunteered?
A: Yes.
Q: Well now, do you know what these first 15 men used in the gas burn experiments volunteered for?
A: No, certainly not.
Q: Well, did they volunteer for a dangerous experiment or for a harmless experiment?
A: They volunteered for a harmless experiment.
Q: Then in other words they did not expect to die as a result of the experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were they warned that the experiments were going to be very severe and might cause death?
A: No.
Q: Now go to the next death as a result of experiments in that book.
A: This is on page 17.
Q: Will you count from the top and tell us the number of the subject on the page, so that we will have a proper reference, Mr. Nale?
A: It is the 12th name counting from above.
Q: On page 17; now what is the name there?
A: Professional Criminal No. 1656, Karl Kirn, born on 14 September, 1907.
Q: And what experiment was he used in?
A: He was used for the same experiment as in the case before, it was the gas burn experiment.
Q: Do you personally know of that death; did you see that corpse also?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, will you go to the next death which occurred as a result of the experiment?
A: Now we come to the third death case as a result of the gas burn experiments, it is the 13th name oh page 17 from above, Professional Criminal, No. 1346, Friedrich Dries, born 6 April 1905.
Q: Does the record show the date of death?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me whether you saw that corpse or not?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, will you turn to the next death, which you have written down in that book, which occurred as a result of some of the experiments?
A: Yes, on page 38 you find experiments with typhus. The 12th name counting from above, you find a group of 18 gypsies; none of the names are mentioned.
Q: Well, how do you know that refers to the gypsies that died in the typhus experiments?
A: Because only gypsies were entered into that book without names or numbers, all other inmates entered in this death book bear a name and number.
Q: Weren't there any other gypsies in the camp other than the gypsies being used for typhus experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: You said yes, do you mean there were other gypsies or there were not other gypsies?
A: In addition to these gypsies, there were other gypsies who were normally registered in the camp.
Q: Could it be possible that these deaths referred to other gypsies, that is gypsies other than those used in the typhus experiments?
A: That is out of the question.
Q: Well, now you see on page 36 —
A: Page 38.
Q: Page 38 there are 18 blank spaces where the names should be.
A: Yes, there are 18 gypsies who died as a result of the experiments.
Q: Well, what does the entry say in the book on page 18 to indicate that these were 18 gypsies?
A: Between the last deaths and the following deaths there are the words, "18 Gypsies."
Q: I see and that is on what line on page 38; Line No. 12?
A: The 12th line from above.
Q: Did you personally ever see any of those gypsies?
A: I saw all of them.
Q: Did you see the corpses?
A: Yes.
Q: Now can you tell us from which room in the experimental station those corpses came from, as I recollect your testimony, you stated that Haagen divided his experimental subjects up into two groups, one group was in room no.
1 and one group was in room No. 2; now do you know where those 18 gypsies were in; room 1 or room 2; do you understand the import of my question?
A: Yes and I cannot tell you that exactly, most of them belonged to the group which was not protected.
Q: And that group was in which room, the ones that were not protected I mean.
A: Ahnenerbe Room 1.
Q: And the group that were vaccinated were in Room 2?
A: Yes, they were housed in the dressing room, which was Room 2.
Q: Now, will you go to the next entry in the book, which indicates to you that these are records of deaths which occurred as a result of experiments?
A: Then we go over to page 39, the second line down from above; here we have one gypsy, he is entered in the same way that the other 18 are.
Q: I see — and the next entry?
A: On line No. 5 counting from above, there is another gypsy.
Q: On page 39?
A: Yes, page 39.
Q: Then indicate the next entry.
A: On line 7 you find another gypsy entered.
Q: On page 39?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, the next entry?
A: Page 39, line 11, you find three gypsies.
Q: And the next entry?
A: Now, we go over to page 40, second line from above — one gypsy.
Q: And the next entry?
A: Fourth line from above, 2 gypsies.
Q: And the next?
A: Line 11 from above, one gypsy.
Q: And the next entry?
A: Now we go over to page 43, the 8th line from above, 1 gypsy.
Q: Yes —
A: I repeat line 8, page 43.
Q: And the next?
A: These are deaths caused as a result of typhus experiments.
Q: Now, do you have any further deaths, which are recorded in that death book, which you have knowledge about?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you point those out, please?
Q: As a result of gas poisoning experiments you find on page 74, 7th line from above, the gypsy 6587, name — Fodassy Andreas, presumably a Hungarian, he was born on 12 February 1911.
Q: And how do you know that that name referred to in that entry is one and the same as the man experimented on by Haagen in the poison gas experiments?
A: Because after the name, there is the letter "V" inserted.
Q: And what does "V" mean?
A: I, myself, made that notation for the word "Versuch" for experiment.
Q: Did you see that experimental subject dead?
A: Yes.
Q: Go to the next entry, please.
A: Now, we stay on the same page, the 8th line from above, there you find the gypsy 6516, the name of Rebstock Cirko, born on 28 May 1901.
Q: Now those two gypsies, on page 74 or is it — what page is that?
A: Yes.
Q: Page 74, is that true, page 74?
A: Yes.
Q: Those two gypsies you saw being subjected to poison gas experiments; is that right?
A: No, I saw them already as they were led down.
Q: What do you mean by, you saw them as they were led down?
A: These men who were selected for this last experiment were led to the gas chamber in groups. That was in the concentration camp, Natzweiler.
Q: And then later you saw them dead?
A: Yes, I later saw these people dead.
Q: Will you go to the next entry?
A: Yes, I should like to explain one thing first, however.
Q: Go right ahead.
A: The gypsy, Rebstock, Cirko, I remember very well, I received the order to wash him to cleanse him.
Q: You mean after he was dead?
A: Yes, after he was dead. And then I had to take him down towards the crematory into the autopsy room. He was to be autopsied.
Q: Did you ever wash any of the other experimental subjects after they died?
A: Yes, certainly.
Q: How many, would you say?
A: As a rule, all of them were washed.
Q: Did you wash any of the experimental subjects in the typhus experiments after they died?
A: Certainly.
Q: Go to the next entry, please.
A: Now we go over to page 75, second line from above. Here you have the gypsy, 6545, Adalbert Eckstein; born on the 2nd of February, 1924. This is the second line from above on page 75.
Q: Did you see him dead also?
A: Yes.
Q: To the next entry, please.
A: Now we go to page 81, the second line from below; here is the gypsy, 6564, the name Rheinhardt Mideti, Josef, born on the 27th of August, 1913.
Q: Did you see him dead?
A: Yes.
Q: Go to the next entry, please.
A: At the extreme bottom of page 81 you find the gypsy, 6521, probably a Czech. His name is Rositzka, Josef; born on the 18th of December, 1909.
Q: And you also saw him dead?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any other entries there recording deaths as a result of the experiments?
A: No.
Q: Is that a complete list of those you know died as a result of the experiments you told the Tribunal about this morning?
A: Yes, these are the last cases of which I was speaking.
Q: Witness, that book that you have in your hand, do you certify that that is a true extract of the death book at Natzweiler, taken by yourself and two other inmates?
A: Yes.
Q: What is your home address now?
A: Rotterdam.
Q: What street number, please; so that we can return this book to you in due time, I want your name in the record and your address, so that we can fulfill the promise of returning these things to you after we have had them reproduced.
A: Yes, Nales, Gerrid, Hendrick; born—
Q: We don't need that. Just your street address, where we can mail this to you.
A: Slaghekstraat, 87-A-Rotterdam
Q: And the name of that is Slaghek, is that correct?
A: Slaghekstraat, 87-A.
Q: That is in Rotterdam?
A: Rotterdam.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I would like to introduce this death book as certified by the witness, and give it a Prosecution exhibit number. This will not, of curse, be introduced as an exhibit for identification, but as an exhibit formally, and the procedure in offering an exhibit with number and then having it reproduced, does the Tribunal wish that that duty be discharged by the Prosecution or the Secretary-General?
THE PRESIDENT: That duty should be performed by the SecretaryGeneral, who will be custodian of the volume and will return it to the owner after the usefulness of the book has been served here.
MR. HARDY: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
I will mark that book as Prosecution's Exhibit 560 and entitle the book rather than give it a document number: "Death Book, Natzweiler," which is Exhibit 560.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be received in evidence with the understanding which I referred to a moment ago.
MR. HARDY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I note the presence of Dr. Froeschmann, the attorney for the Defendant Brack.
The Tribunal, Doctor, has approved your application for the attendance of the witness in the Russian Zone, with the understanding, however, that the affidavit which you desire to take from this witness must be taken and presented to the Tribunal prior to the close of the evidence in the case.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination of this witness by defense counsel may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION
DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for defendant Sievers):
Q: Witness, from March 1942 until 4 September 1944 you were in Natzwiler?
A: Yes.
Q: From when were you working as an assistant nurse at the so called department Ahnenerbe?
A: Ever since November 1942.
Q: November 1942? When did the so-called burning experiments start?
A: That was in November 1942.
Q: Very well. The experimental subjects came from outside or had they been selected in Natzweiler?
A: They were selected in the camp itself.
Q: You have already testified that these experimental subjects had volunteered?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know this fact?
A: They were selected at the block and they were told that this would be a simple matter only for which they would receive better nourishment. In view of the need inside the camp these people volunteered.
Q: Who told that to these people?
A: The man who selected them.
Q: That was the camp physician?
A: The SS camp physician of Natzweiler.
Q: The SS camp physician of Natzweiler?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you personally present during that event?
A: No.
Q: From whom did you learn what the camp physician of Natzweiler told them?
A: The persons told me that themselves.
Q: A witness has already testified here, a witness who also came from Natzweiler, that Professor Hirt had held a lecture to these experimental subjects about the purpose of the experiments which he intended.
A: That was only later. That only happened after they had already been selected.
Q: But then Professor Hirt held a lecture?
A: Yes, but then they were already located at that department, that block.
Q: Well, these people had been requested to volunteer for special experiments in the camp at Natzweiler, the camp physician told then that this waste be an experiment, then the people were sent to the station, and here Dr. Hirt once more addressed them?
A: Yes, that is how it was—yes.
Q: You were speaking about the station Ahnenerbe. How did this station get this name "Ahnenerbe."
A: Well, I cannot tell you that. I only know that that was the name. It was no secret.
Q: Well, it needn't be a secret. At any rate, we have established that at the time you went to that station the name "Station Ahnenerbe" already existed?
A: Yes, we had received this information in order to see that the drugs which we received would not be confused with the drugs that the other inmates in the camp had to receive. These drugs, these solutions or ointments were not to be used for the other inmates.
Q: Well, you yourself nursed these experimental subjects?
A: Yes.
Q: You were saying that three of these experimental subjects died?
A: Yes.
Q: When did they die? Can you ascertain that from your notes?
A: Yes. You will find that in my book.
Q: The date can be ascertained?
A: The month can be ascertained.
Q: Very well.
A: I did not have sufficient time to make an entry every day.
Q: Have you already returned the book?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: I shall once more have the book handed to you in order to enable you to ascertain the month or the months during which these three people had died in connection with the burning experiments. Would you please select these three months?
A: December 1942.
Q: That refers to the three cases of the first experiment?
A: Yes, December 1942.
Q: In what manner was the cause of death ascertained?
A: That happened in the dressing room. Once they were dead we immediately reported that fact. Either the professor or the assistant came along and examined these people. That was not our matter and once these corpses were released we transferred them to the crematory.
Q: In that way you cannot say what exactly the cause of death was in connection with these three people.
A: They had high fever and then a severe relapse. They had horrible wounds full of puss. They suffered terribly before they died.
Q: But, witness, I was asking you whether you know exactly what the cause of death was in these cases.
A: That I could not ascertain. I can only tell you what I saw.
Q: Now, Now big was this so-called department Ahnenerbe?
A: How do you mean—how many people?
Q: Well, I am asking you was it one barrack or was it only part of a barrack? How many rooms were in there?
A: We had a room No. 1 and a room No. 2. We had a pathological department and a room for treatments.
Q: Was this a barracks or a stone building?
A: No, it was part of a barracks, when you entered you found it on your left side, the left wing.
Q: Was it a normal wooden barracks?
A: Yes, a normal wooden barracks. That was repaired in the department Ahnenerbe.
Q: Can you give us approximately the size of that barracks, how long it was, how wide it was?
A: I think it was 96 meters.
Q: 96 meters long?
A: Yes, 96 meters long. I believe so. I cannot tell you that with certainty—about 7 meters wide.
Q: You think that this barracks was 96 meters long?
A: Yes, it was just an ordinary concentration camp barracks.
Q: Were there many such barracks in Natzweiler?
A: Certainly, at that time.
Q: I believe that you are in a position to estimate approximately what 96 meters means.
A: Yes.
Q: But you still remain at your opinion that it was 96 meters?
A: Yes, approximately 96 meters, 90 meters, something like that. I really didn't take too much interest in that.
Q: You were in Natzweiler in the years of 1943 and 1944?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this barrack at that time still designated Ahnenerbe?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there any notice attached to this barrack?
A: No.
Q: Well, if I understand you correctly the barrack was designated as the Ahnenerbe barrack among the inmates?
A: That did not apply to all of the inmates, only those who knew.
Q: And how did these few inmates have that knowledge?
A: In every camp there are rumors and rumors pass from one to another.
Q: At any rate you have no exact material which could tell us in what connection this barrack was with the Institute of Ahnenerbe?
A: I didn't quite understand you, counsel.
Q: In Berlin there was an institute called Ahnenerbe; do you know that?
A: That may be. I don't know. I only know that they received their assignments from Berlin. I heard that once.
Q: And who received these assignments you are talking about?
A: Well, Strasbourg, Strasbourg perhaps, the professors of Strasbourg.
Q: But you know nothing authentic about it personally?
A: No.
Q: Witness, this morning you were telling us that the inmates who volunteered for these experiments were promised that they would be pardoned after the experiment. Furthermore, you stated that was never carried out?
A: No.
Q: These inmates who were used for these burning experiments, did they remain in that barracks during the subsequent period?
A: No.
Q: Well, where were they sent?
A: None of them got away. They all were transferred, they all became invalids and as invalid they were sent back to the camp. For some time they were employed in the weaving industry. However, they couldn't work there. They were just sitting around, and so one after the other was sent away on invalid transports and this is how they left.
Q: Did you have an opportunity to observe these inmates during the subsequent period?
A: Yes.
Q: How many inmates were there in Natzweiler?
A: In Natzweiler I think there were twelve hundred inmates, twelve hundred inmates. That is in the mother camp of Natzweiler. The Natzweiler camp had some outside branches. I think in the whole camp there were abut seven thousand inmates, during the last period.
Q: And do you mean to say that you always had an opportunity to observe these twelve inmates who were used for the burning experiments and ascertain how long they remained in the camp?
A: That is not at all difficult. It wasn't at all difficult to observe the people.
Q: Now, one more question. In the case of the experimental subjects used for the experiments of Dr. Haagen, were they also in the department of Ahnenerbe?
A: Yes, we had to vacate this department for that particular purpose because it was filled with other patients.
Q: And for whom was this department to be vacated?
A: For the research of Ahnenerbe.
Q: How do you know this latter fact, that this vacating was to be carried out for the institute of Ahnenerbe?
A: We had received the order that this place was to be vacated because people would come from Auschwitz. That is the official in formation we received.
Q: But that this evacuation was to be carried out on behalf of the institute of Ahnenerbe, how did you know that?
A: I already told you that we received an order that this place was to be vacated since it was to be used for the Ahnenerbe.
Q: Did you ever see a written ordinance to that effect?
A: No.
Q: Who told you that? Who told you that these barracks were needed by the Ahnenerbe?
A: The camp physician of Natzweiler, the SS camp physician.
Q: Did he tell you that personally?
A: No, not me personally, but I was present. I received the order personally.
Q: To whom was the camp physician speaking?
A: He was speaking to the kapo of the hospital.
Q: Now, one more question in connection with the burning experiments. You were saying that Dr. Hirt on frequent occasions went to Natzweiler to this station. Were you present on all these occasions?
A: Whenever the professor came to visit us we were mostly engaged in the changing of dressings. We had to bathe these two people once every two hours and on this occasion he sometimes came in to examine the people. He was accompanied by a man from the Luftwaffe who photographed these people every day. He sometimes photographed them twice a day.
Q: Since you are saying that you were at this station regularly, you probably also have had an opportunity to observe whether visitors from outside came to that station?
A: Certainly.
Q: Did you receive frequent visits?
A: Sometimes, not exactly frequent.
Q: During the time when the typhus experiments were carried on, did you hear the name Sievers—Sievers?
A: I can't remember.
Q: Did you hear this name Sievers mentioned in connection with the burning experiments?
A: No, I cannot remember.
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross examination of this witness by defense counsel?
MR. HARDY: Before further cross examination continues, your Honor, if the cross examination and redirect examination, if any of this witness, are completed and there is still time left this afternoon, Dr. Tipp will be prepared to present his supplemental documents for the case of Becker-Freyseng, so I am telling that to the Tribunal so they may have their supplemental copies available.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for defendant Rose):
Q: Witness, did you know the nurse, male nurse, Holl?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know your countryman, Broers?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you also knew a certain Grandjean?
A: Grandjean, yes.
Q: Were they also at this typhus experimental station?
A: Yes, he worked there but not at the Ahnenerbe department.
Q: Did these three people also knew something about the execution of the experiments as you described them today?.
A: Certainly, they must have known about that but not in such detail, certainly not about typhus because at that time he was already in Baden-Baden. I mean Holl. But he knew about the burning experiments.
Q: And how about the other two, Grandjean and your countryman?
A: Yes, they certainly knew about these things but not to the same degree as I. They were not as often present as I was.
DR. FRITZ: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. TIPP (Counsel for defendants Becker-Freyseng and Schroeder):
Q: Witness, if I understood you correctly, Professor Haagen, as you said, for the first time entered Natzweiler in October 1943; is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: You were furthermore saying that at first a transport of about a hundred gypsies arrived. You further said that Professor Haagen examined this transport and then sent these people away because they were not physically strong enough; is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, would you please tell us when Professor Haagen started with his vaccinations in Natzweiler?
A: That was approximately in November 1943.
Q: Is it possible, witness, that this was only in December of 1943?
A: One moment, please. It must have been at the end of November.
Q: Very well. On how many persons were these vaccinations performed, witness? I am talking about the vaccinations by Mr. Haagen.
A: Do you mean the beginning or the end or what?
Q: I want to put this question to you quite generally. When did Mr. Haagen start to work with these inmates?
A: I think that was in November, during the course of November 1943.
Q: And when were these experiments concluded?
A: A bout April, 1944, the typhus experiments?
Q: Yes, In other words from November 1943 until April of 1944. How many inmates did Mr. Haagen use as experimental subjects?
A: Approximately ninety.
Q: You were saying this morning, if I understood you correctly, witness, that these subjects were divided into two groups?
A: Yes.
Q: How many persons did one such group comprise?
A: Half. They were divided in exactly two groups.
Q: Could you please tell the Tribunal, witness, what exactly Mr. Haagen did with these groups? Tell us what he did with the first group and then what he did with the second.
A: The first group received a protective vaccination.
Q: Let me ask you, witness, if I understood you correctly, you are not a physician?
A: No, I am not.
Q: How then can you tell us exactly that Mr. Haagen vaccinated these people?
A: Well, I am a trained nurse. I have learned the nursing profession in Natzweiler.
Q: And within the framework of this education you gained enough knowledge in order to tell us what Mr. Haagen did with this first group was actually a protective vaccination?
A: Well, we had our physicians there too among the inmates, and they knew it just as well as I did.
Q: Well, who were these innate physicians, witness?
A: For instance, there was a Dutch Physician, Dr. Kredit, who unfortunately died of typhus.
Q: Was there another physician there?
A: No, there wasn't another physician in the typhus station perhaps Dr. Paulsson from Norway.
Q: Paulsson?
A: Yes.
Q: Very well. Well, you were saying that Mr. Haagen was vaccinating the first group against typhus. Can you tell us exactly what vaccine he used?
A: No.
Q: How about the second group?
A: The second group was merely strengthened with food and then worked upon anew.
Q: The first group was vaccinated, and the second group was not. These were the stronger people.
A: The stronger people were used for the second group.
Q: And now you are saying that after some time everybody started to work again. Well, what was the length of time between these two experiments?
A: Only a few days.
Q: Now, witness, it is important to know what the second work of Haagen constituted. The prosecution asked you this morning if Haagen injected into these inmates artificial infectious typhus vaccine, and you said yes. Witness, what do you understand by artificial infectious typhus vaccine?
MR. HARDY: The prosecution did not say vaccine.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q: Pardon me, what I just mentioned was typhus medium, artificial infectious typhus medium, what do you understand that to mean?
A: I can't judge that.
Q: How do you know that it was artificial infectious typhus?
A: Well, we heard that —
Q: One minute, witness. I don't want to hear any conclusions from you. The Tribunal wants to knew what you really know from your knowledge, and now you say that you cannot really judge whether it was really artificial infectious typhus, that is, from what you just —
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the defense put a question to the witness and the witness proceeded to answer it, and he interrupted him. I request that the witness be permitted to answer that question.
THE TRIBUNAL: The witness may answer the question. The interpreter will read the question.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q: I am asking, since you cannot judge it, how do you know that Hr. Haagen was using Artificial infectious typhus?
A: The Professor spoke to the inmate physician in this department and made no secret of it. He told us about his work, and that was when we were all present.
Q: Well, what did he tell you about his work?
A: Well, I can't repeat that to you exactly.
Q: Well, in that case how can you maintain that he used artificial infectious typhus if you cannot judge that from your own knowledge and if you can no longer tell us what Mr. Haagen has told the inmate physician?
A: Well, as far as I can judge it, if one receives typhus normally, one gets it through lice or unclean conditions, but these people were entirely clean. Therefore, they must have bean infected with an artificial medium. Even if you are not a physician you can judge that.
Q: Well, witness, I am repeating that you are merely giving us a conclusion. But that that does not constitute a knowledge. Finally, let me establish that you really do not know whether Haagen actually worked with infectious typhus —
MR. HARDY: May I suggest that defense counsel interrogate the witness, not argue with him?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is proceeding in order. You may proceed, excepting a little more slowly.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q: Very well, witness. Now, another question. What was the success of the introduction of the vaccine, or this artificial infectious typhus; will you please talk a little slower?
A: It occurred just as in the case of normal typhus. There was high fever, collapse, it is ordinary in the case of typhus, one saw all the normal symptoms of a typhus patient. The one group which received vaccinations did not show as severe symptoms as the other group, which did not receive these vaccinations. In other words, they did not experience such high fevers except in the case of a few individuals. I know that from my own knowledge because I measured the fever myself.
Q: In that case you are saying, witness, the patient had high fever?
A: Yes.
Q: I did not quite understand your further statement. What do you mean by "collapse", or "kollapieren"?
A: Collapse, I think, means if the curve goes way up and then suddenly drops down, as far as I can judge that as a nurse.
Q: In other words, you are saying that the inmates had high fever, and that fever dropped abruptly. What other symptoms did you notice in the case of these inmates, witness?
A: I can't tell you any other symptoms.
Q: In other words, the inmates had high fever. Is high fever necessarily a sign of typhus, witness?
A: No, certainly not. But Professor Haagen said publicly that these were typhus experiments.
Q: Unfortunately, I must once more establish, witness, that Mr. Haagen told you that these were typhus experiments. May I perhaps put to you that he may have spoken of typhus vaccine experiments?
A: That I cannot say, I really don't know.
Q: In any case, witness, you can't tell us with certainty from your own knowledge that these inmates contacted typhus?
A: No.
Q: I think that this answers my questions.
A: But I must tell you one thing, the blood tests taken from these inmates were sent to Strasbourg together with tests of all the normal typhus cases.
Q: I beg your pardon, witness, what do you mean by normal typhus cases?
A: I mean those cases which were already in the camp, that is, those who were sent to the camp suffering with typhus; but the typhus cases came from Auschwitz.
Q: You were saying that the blood tests were sent to Strasbourg. Now, witness, you are not a physician. At any rate, you were working long enough at a so-called experimental station, may I perhaps ask you did you at any time hear of the so-called Weil-Felix reaction?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know what is meant by that?
A: Yes, in my opinion this is the blood test according to Weil-Felix. This is a blood examination which was invented by Weil-Felix.
Q: I think we understand each other, witness. You are saying that the Weil-Felix reaction is called after the two men who used this test for the first time by the name of Weil and Felix. What does one establish by this Weil-Felix reaction, do you know that?
A: The state of the blood. I cannot really judge that.
Q: Now, witness, if I were to tell you know that one establishes, by using the Weil-Felix reactions what resistance there is to be found in the blood, would that be something new to you?
A: Yes, I think so, but I forgot it again.
Q: At any rate, you do know that these people who were treated by Dr. Haagen received high fever, blood tests were taken from their bodies, and you also knew that these blood tests were sent to Strasbourg for examination together with blood tests of the normal typhus cases?
A: Yes. But they may have also been sent to other places.
Q: Very well. I don't want to argue with you about that subject.
Witness, you were a nurse at this station, and you asserted you nursed these inmates yourself, is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: When did these feverish symptoms occur?
A: Well, I really can't tell you that exactly. I do not know the exact course of the illness.
Q: Now, witness, if you are so well informed about these matters, you must be in a position to tell the Tribunal approximately when these symptoms occurred after two days, three days, fourteen days?
A: Well, I think they occurred after 10 or 12 days.
Q: And when, witness, did the individual people die? I mean, the persons of whom you were speaking this morning and this afternoon.
A: You mean as of what date they died? I think that it started approximately at the end of December 1943.
Q: Let me clarify my question. I am now speaking of the death cases as they arose from this experimental group?
A: Yes, I understand you.
Q: As you were saying this experimental group was started at the end of November or the beginning of December, and when did the first death cases occur?
A: I think that these occurred towards the middle of December.
Q: Now, witness, can you tell us with certainty what the cause of the death was?
A: No, I cannot tell you.
Q: When did the other death cases occur?
A: During the subsequent periods. Two days later there was a one, a few days later there was another one, and so on.
Q: We have the death book before us, witness, and I shall come back to that later; but couldn't you ascertain by using the death book exactly when these death cases occurred? May I perhaps help you? You were speaking about the 12th line of page 38.
A: I beg your pardon, I make a mistake. I think I got my dates mixed up. I think I made a mistake in giving you some of the dates. If I correct myself, the experiments started approximately at the middle of November. Many years have passed since, and this is my only help. The group of these 18 people was already entered in November.
Q: Now, witness, I must put something to you. At first, you said that the experiments started at the end of November. Now, you say, looking at the book, that there were already death cases in November, and in order to connect these death cases with the experiments you are now saying they actually started in the beginning of November. Isn't this error due to the fact that you want to connect those death cases with what you were telling us before?
A: No.
Q: Now, witness, how do you know that this group of 18 gypsies which is entered here are actually persons who belonged to Haagen's group?
A: These people were not entered with their names and their numbers. I mean, the camp administration book, the camp registry book, where every inmate was entered with name and number.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Well, I do know it. Every inmate who comes to the Natzweiler concentration camp had to pass through the hospital.
Q: How do you know that just this gypsy group was not entered there?
A: because I was present when they arrived. They arrived on a Sunday.
Q: When this experimental group came to the hospital you, yourself, were present, witness?
A: Yes.
Q: And on this occasion you found out that these person were not entered?
A: Certainly, I am quite sure of that.
Q: Why was that, witness?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Was that ordered specifically — was it forbidden specifically that these people be entered?
A: I really can't tell you.
Q: Weren't these names ascertained at the experiment station?
A: Oh yes, I knew that one was called Joseph and one had another name, but of course I can't tell you that with certainty now.
Q: Witness, form the fact that these inmates were not registered in the camp at their arrival, and from the fact that here in the book we find a group of 18 gypsies, without names, you conclude that we are here concerned with the people coming from that group — but that is merely a conclusion on your part?
A: No, that is a fact. These people were not entered.
Q: Now witness, you are saying that is a fact but in that connection I must ask you the following: Who exactly made the entries into the death book?
A: The clerks — the inmate clerks.
Q: Not yourself?
A: No.
Q: Well, in the case you really cannot tell us why this clerk left the names out?
A: Well, the clerk did not know their names.
Q: Witness, when this group arrived in the camp you were accidentally present?
A: That was not an accident. That was quite normal.
Q: Were you always there?
A: Yes, I was always there when they arrived.
Q: In that case, do you mean to say that in the case of every new influx of people into the group, you were present?
A: Of course there were transports when I was not present but every transport had to go through the hospital.
Q: Now let me establish the following thing, witness. Can you state that this group of 90 gypsies was the only group whose names were not entered?
A: There were other gypsies.
Q: You mean other groups whose names were not entered?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, then, how can you tell us that those gypsies who have no names are identical with the experimental subjects?
A: I can tell you that because the other persons in the preceding transport arrived and left again and were not accepted into the camp proper.
Q: But witness, you cannot exclude, if I understand you correctly, that other groups arrived at the camp whose names were not registered?
A: Yes, but that was at an earlier date.
Q: Well, how do you know that?
A: A number of Jews, for instance, arrived at the camp, who left a day later. They were not registered and they were not any death cases.
Q: At any rate, witness, I can establish that you yourself did not register these people into the death book.
A: No, not into the official death book.
Q: Let me furthermore state that your assumption that these 18 gypsies came from Haagen's experiments is only a conclusion on your part. Witness, you have already said that you did not yourself enter these cases into the death book. Now please tell us, witness, how this copy originated which you have submitted to the Tribunal.
A: I was always interested in getting hold of these names because I, as a Dutchman, knew that one day I would be free and I did want to know who found his death from our people in order that I might get back and say that these and these people died at the camp of Natzweiler. All these people were Nacht und Nebel [Night and Fog] prisoners; they were not openly registered; I only did that in the interest of my citizens.
Q: Do not misunderstand me, witness. I do not in any way want to reprimand you because of that. I only want to find out how you got the original death book.
A: Oh, I had access to it every day. I was in the hospital and I could take hold of the original book every day. I could do that for hours, if I wanted to; even if SS physicians were present; it was something quite ordinary.
Q: And by using these entries in the original book you compiled this copy which was submitted by you?
A: Yes, it was copied by me.
Q: Does this copy correspond with the original in all its details?
A: Yes, exactly.
Q: Witness, let me finish this typhus complex. I should like to know how Haagen's work was being carried through. You were present when the first group recrived these protective vaccinations. How were these vaccinations carried out?
A: Professor Haagen did them in collaboration with an assistant.
Q: What I am asking you, witness, is how were they vaccinated — intramuscular, intravenous, or how?
A: I cannot tell you that exactly. I was standing at the entrance and it was my duty to let these people in.
Q: In that case you weren't present during the vaccination itself?
A: Well, I was in the room.
Q: But you didn't see whether Haagen injected or what he did?
A: I really didn't see whether it was intramuscular injection or an intravenous injection.
Q: And the second treatment which you think was an infectious treatment, how was that carried through?
A: It may have been done in the same way. I can't tell you that exactly.
Q: Witness, another question with reference to the death book. A little earlier, in the case of one name, you have stated that you knew exactly that this death came as a result of the experiment, because you added a "V" to that name. What does that "V" mean?
A: The V means Versuch — experiment. I merely indicated that personally. That was not in the death book.
Q: Witness, you are a Dutchman, aren't you? Do you use the German language so often that even in case of such a notation you use a German word?
A: No, I really don't use the German language at all but at that time I certainly did. Sometimes, after I came home, and I can tell you that, some Dutchmen pointed out to me that I have to learn to speak Dutch properly once more. For 5 years I had to speak German and therefore I often made mistakes in Dutch and even today it occurs that I make a mistake.
Q: You were saying that you abbreviated the German word "versuch" with a "V". Now, witness, let me depart from the typhus experiments and go over to the further work of Mr. Haagen. You were telling us that Mr. Haagen, in May of 1944, once more went to Natzweiler, is that true?
A: I have said that either the end of April or the beginning of May.
Q: During this time, witness, was another typhus vaccination or something carried through?
A: I can't tell you that exactly. I only know that Professor Haagen, in the case of normal typhus patients, had ordered blood tests to be carried through and sometimes carried them through himself.
Q: Now, witness, if I understand you correctly, there were normal typhus cases in the camp too?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they very numerous in the summer of 1944 or the spring of 1944?
A: Well, there were about 40 cases. I was not working in that department and I really can't tell you that exactly but I do think there were about 40 or 30 cases.
Q: Isn't it true, witness, that in the spring or summer of 1944 there was a regular typhus epidemic in the camp?
A: No.
Q: Witness, you yourself were not a nurse in the typhus block were you?
A: No.
Q: Do you know the witness Grandjean?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think Grandjean is a reliable and credible person?
A: Yes.
Q: Now if I tell you now that Mr. Grandjean, here as a witness before this Tribunal, has appeared in the same way as you have, and has testified, under oath, that he was a nurse in the typhus block and that the number of typhus cases in the spring and summer of 1944 amounted to 1200, would you say that Mr. Grandjean has lied?
A: Certainly.
Q: But you were just telling us that Mr. Grandjean was a reliable man. Now you say that he has lied. Why?
A: In the whole camp there were only about 1200 people and I am now talking about the Natzweiler Mother Camp. At the most there were 2,000 at the last moment.
Q: Witness, perhaps this apparent contradiction can be cleared up that Grandjean certainly did not say that these 1200 cases occurred at one time but that, one after another, throughout the year, there were 1200 cases.
A: Well, that is possible.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I wish when defense counsel refers to the testimony of Grandjean he quotes the record exactly as Grandjean testified. I think this will deceive the witness here.
DR. TIPP: I haven't the testimony of Grandjean before me but I shall be able to ascertain the exact page number during the recess and will then be able to inform the Tribunal as to when he appeared.
MR. HARDY: There were a number of cases in camps outside the Mother Camp, as Grandjean testified.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess and then the matter may be investigated.
(A recess was taken.)