1947-07-02, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, Dr. Servatius has four or five or six documents that I think he can put in now in the German language. At the completion of that, Dr. Tipp has two documents that he can put in in the German language. I believe that Dr. Seidl has one; Rudolf Brandt has another, and I think Poppendick one, and Hoven one, and Beiglboeck one. I think those can all be handled now.

DR. HOFFMAN (Counsel for defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, last Friday I finished my submission on behalf of the defendant Pokorny. The Tribunal permitted me to submit another two affidavits, one affidavit by the defendant and one by the witness Dr. Jung. In the record it is expressly stated that I was permitted to submit these affidavits as soon as they are ready. This was the statement made by the President.

Today I have these two affidavits and I tried to submit them to the Translation Department. I was told there that they could not be accepted anymore. In addition, all the documents which have been submitted since Monday were sent back with the notation that they could no longer be translated. I should like the Tribunal to rule in my special case that these two documents be accepted for translation and equally that all the documents that have been submitted this week should also be translated.

In my case I would not have been able even at the best to get these documents ready any faster. I think that originally the Tribunal gave us time until today or even until the 3rd of July to submit the documents to the Translating Division. I feel that we are here concerned with a misunderstanding of the Translating Division.

THE PRESIDENT: I remember the ruling of the Tribunal was that these documents might be offered up through today and possibly tomorrow, but that did not mean that they would be accepted after that. The counsel may present this matter this afternoon. We will now proceed with hearing Dr. Servatius and the documents he has to offer.

MR. HARDY: In regard to Pokorny's case, the Tribunal did grant permission to the defense counsel to submit an affidavit from Pokorny himself.

I think we could, take these two later in German, and in the period of the week's recess and so forth they could eventually get to the Tribunal before you set out to write your judgment.

THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Pokorny having been the last defendant to testify, naturally his documents were delayed. If it is stated by the counsel for the prosecution that he agrees, these may be offered in German this afternoon.

MR. HARDY: Fine, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: We shall hear from Dr. Servatius, counsel for Karl Brandt.

DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for defendant Karl Brandt): Mr. President, I offer now the Document KB-119 as Exhibit 102. This is an official document of the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler, in which Karl Brandt receives a special assignment in his capacity as General Commissioner for the Health and Medical Services. It tends to illustrate his position as it was. The document is not yet translated; it is very short and I shall read it into the record:

Fuehrer Headquarters, 26 October 1942.

The care for the wounded demands an evacuation of the hospital bases. Therefore, the interests of all military and civilian agencies have to withdraw. I commission the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services with the building of these new hospital bases and also the General Quartermaster of the Army. The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services and the General Quartermaster of the Army will receive the necessary authorization in connection with my General Commissioner for Health and Medical Services. /s/ Adolf Hitler

MR. HARDY: Will Dr. Servatius kindly make a statement regarding the authenticity of this document? That is, where the document came from, and so forth, for the record.

DR. SERVATIUS: I received this document from my colleague Dr. Nelte, who in turn has received it from Handloser. I have a photostatic copy before me and I have no doubt as to the authenticity of the signature.

MR. HARDY: Is this the original signature?

DR. SERVATIUS: I have never had the original in my hands.

MR. HARDY: That is supposed to be Adolf Hitler?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, that is supposed to be Adolf Hitler.

MR. HARDY: I recognize the signature as being that of Hitler. I think the document is authentic, and if defense counsel will make the statement that it was received from Professor Handloser and that Handloser had had it in his possession as an official document, that will meet the qualifications of the Court. He can made a certification to this on a later date, just to assure us of the authenticity for the Court record. I won't object.

DR. SERVATIUS: I will submit a statement of that nature.

MR. HARDY: The statement need only be in the English language — just a brief statement as to its authenticity.

THE PRESIDENT: What exhibit number will that bear for Karl Brandt?

DR. SERVATIUS: This will receive the exhibit number 102.

MR. HARDY: It is my understanding that this is in the translation mill and we'll have English copies in due time.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius has stated that it apparently went into the translation two weeks ago.

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, it was submitted for translation.

I now submit Karl Brandt Document 117. It is a compilation of experiments taken from a scientific lecture dated the year 1937, entitled "Infectious Experimentation on Human Beings". The document was submitted to the Translating Division two weeks ago but is not yet available. I should like to ask your permission to submit it in the German language and the translations will arrive later.

It is a summation of a number of experiments to which I shall refer in my final plea. In particular it refers to the question of the voluntary nature of the subjects.

The next document will be KB-131. These are a few pages from a document which was already submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 512. This came from the "Philippine Journal of Science," including the experiments of Strong. I have here the cover and the pages 171 and pages 377 to 379 which have been photostatted by me. It concerns the death cases which arose during the experiments and I submit this document in supplementation of what the Prosecution already offered.

MR. HARDY: May your Honors please, the original document is in the English language.

DR. SERVATIUS: I don't know whether the Tribunal has the entire article before it. I have the original book here from the University of Munich and I should like to hand it to the Tribunal so that it may take official notice of it although they would have to return it at a later date. I consider it important that the Tribunal get a picture about these experiments and will see how such experiments were carried through, how voluntary subjects were obtained, and what circumstances played a part. I ask the Tribunal to accept the original document and hand it back when they are finished.

THE PRESIDENT: We have four pages of photostats. Does that cover the entire document or not?

DR. SERVATIUS: No, the document itself has 130 pages and could not be copied. I merely want to hand it to the Tribunal so that they may gain insight and gain a general opinion about the experiments. Prosecution has presented part, the expert Ivy referred to it, and I think it expedient if the Tribunal would get an insight into the document.

THE PRESIDENT: The volume may be deposited in the office of the Secretary General to be available to the Tribunal.

DR. SERVATIUS: The last document will receive Exhibit 104.

The following document KB 129 is offered as Exhibit 105. It is an affidavit signed by the witness Wesse. This witness had been approved by me for the purpose of cross examination. In agreement with Prosecution and in the presence of a representative of Prosecution, I interrogated this witness and I have laid down his testimony in the form of an affidavit. The documentation division has not translated that document and with the approval of the Tribunal I would read it into the record. The document has about three pages.

THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for Prosecution examined the document?

MR. HARDY: The document is in order, your Honor. It has the affiant's signature on it. And, if I recall the Tribunal gave permission to call the witness for cross examination purposes. Dr. Servatius chose to get an affidavit and did interrogate the witness in the presence of Prosecution and this is his affidavit. I think this should be admitted. As to the translation problem and completing it. I think it could be read into the record but that wouldn't make an available copy for Prosecution, so he could read the pertinent parts, or —

THE PRESIDENT: The document will be translated into the English by the Translation Division.

MR. HARDY: I think that is all that will be necessary.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, then the Translation Division must be told to carry out that translation because they returned the document to me.

THE PRESIDENT: When did you deliver the document to the Translation Department.

DR. SERVATIUS: Two days ago, on Monday, after I had interrogated the witness. I didn't have the witness available before that time.

THE PRESIDENT: The Translation Department will be instructed to translate the document.

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President with reference to the contents of this document I may state that the witness talks about the Reich Committee and about Euthanasia of children. He discusses the procedure which was used there, the type of children used. In particular he speaks about his knowledge of Professor Brandt's activities. He says that he didn't know Brandt, had never seen him nor anything in writing about him — only told that Brandt was the leading personality in that respect.

The next document, your Honor, will be KB 130. I offer this document as Exhibit 106. It is an affidavit signed by a certain Dr. Wilhelm Rosenau. Mr. President, I have interrogated this witness yesterday and he made this affidavit for me. He was a witness before Tribunal III in Case III, the trial of the Judges. He was heard there regarding the question of sterilization. Here he testified as to Euthanasia. I consider him to be a very important witness who unfortunately only appeared toward the end of the proceedings. I did not know him before. He is a Jew in this case of the Nurnberg laws and was the head of the Mental Institute near the Rhine in Sein where all the Jews who were insane had been concentrated for purposes of cure. He states that questionnaires were sent to him but that the questions contained in the questionnaire with reference to Jews and other points were put in there for purposes of camouflage. He further says that Jews concentrated in his mental institution were not transported away and stayed there until the end of the War. Towards the end of the War, the Gestapo sent them away, but they were not sent away within the Euthanasia, procedure. The statement is not very long and perhaps I can be permitted to read it into the record.

THE PRESIDENT: What bearing does that affidavit have upon the case of Karl Brandt?

DR. SERVATIUS: The affidavit concerns the questionnaires. The Prosecution charged Karl Brandt that he knew about the questionnaires and possibly helped in the drafting of these forms. He was charged that Jews were mentioned in the questionnaires with the obvious intention of leading them into Euthanasia, you will remember that the defense of the defendants maintained that a number of points are contained in the questionnaires which have nothing at all to do with Euthanasia, but merely served the purpose of camouflage to conceal the mere matter of the intention. This, of course, was a statement which could be met with certain amount of suspicion, but now here we have a Jew, the head of a Mental Institute, who confirms that fact. Furthermore, it has been charged that the Jews were actually transferred and Karl Brandt, as the head, of the Euthanasia procedure, is held to account. Here this head of the Jewish institute says that they were not actually transferred, except for a few cases. I should like to read this statement into the record.

THE PRESIDENT: When did you turn that document into the Translation Department?

DR. SERVATIUS: I only received it last night. I tried to give it to the Translation Department this morning but they returned it to me. However, I do think that its contents are so essential as to give us a completely different picture about the question of the Jews that what we have already. Mr. President, perhaps you will remember the testimony of the defendant Brack who stated Jews were to be excepted from the Euthanasia because that act of grace it was only to be given to Germans. That was, of course, a strange statement but it must be surprising now if here the head of a Jewish Institute confirms the fact "That was too good for them, they were saved for something worse." Only the Gestapo wanted to deal with them.

Such a noble procedure was too good for them, and here you find the head of a Jewish institute saying that. I think this is of considerable significance for the case of Karl Brandt who had nothing to do with the Gestapo and who, as he maintains, intends to carry through the Euthanasia act in medical practice and orderly fashion.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course, new witnesses might be coming in now for the rest of the month. It must come to an end to the time when new evidence will be introduced. Has counsel for Prosecution examined this record?

MR. HARDY: I have examined if. The document has a jurate on it. As to its admissibility, I can see some merit in Dr. Servatius statement. But it is just an affidavit from the head of one institute and may not have any probative value. It is up to the Tribunal to decide that. I think he is a little late in introducing it.

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, a dead line has been set. I think this is the limit of the dead line and I have still arrived in time. I might add, if the witness only appeared three days later I might have been able to submit it sooner. I still came in time.

MR. HARDY: The solution is to have Dr. Servatius translate it himself. He is capable of doing so and can have it certified and put it in.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that may be done.

DR. SERVATIUS: Would you like me to read it into the record or shall I submit it later?

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may read the document into the record now.

DR. SERVATIUS: I quote:

I, Dr. Wilhelm Rosenau, official physician in Dietz/Kreis Unterlahn, have been told that I shall make myself subject to punishment if I make a false affidavit.

I state in lieu of oath that my statements correspond to the truth and are being made for Military Tribunal I, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg.

From the year 1940 until 1943 I was head of the Mental Institution Sein of the Reich Association of Jews in Germany. And approximately at the end of 1940 all insane Jews who were in need of being cared for in an asylum were transferred. Other institutions were not allowed to accept Jews and keep them there. The Institution Sein had to fill out the questionnaires for the euthanasia procedure, and the sterilization, in the same way as all other institutions. The questionnaire contained a number of questions which we did not feel to be consistent and we agreed that part of these questions served purposes of camouflaging of the original intention of euthanasia. The questions regarding "Jews" we considered to be irrelevant in that connection. On the basis of these questionnaires no Jews at all were called from our asylum. Two or three Jews who were given care from the outside had to be transported to Eglfing-Haar, and we had heard nothing from them after that time. Since it has been told to me that defendant Brack on the witness stand has stated that euthanasia was not to be granted to Jews since it constituted an act of grace from which only the Germans were to benefit, I can state that this was entirely our opinion, too — that is to say, the opinion of the then responsible heads of the Jewish agencies, and also my opinion. I have stated this fact some time ago when testifying before the French Surete [French National Police]. The patients of our asylum, after they had been cured, were transferred from their home place to Poland by the Gestapo, as they were not able, as was the case of a few of them, to get passports and emigrate. The rest of the patients as from the 14 March 1942 were transferred to Poland in general large scale Jewish transports, to Poland, together with the personnel of the institution, where they disappeared. In the case of only the Jews who were in so called privileged mixed marriages, and in the case of Jew of foreign nationality, were not transferred directly to Poland, but stayed there until very late, and were then sent to Berlin, where the Jewish hospital at first had instituted a special department for them. From there they were sent to Theresienstadt. I know that recently three of them were still alive.

I have personally seen this special department in Berlin. Nuernberg, 1 July 1947. /s/ Wilhelm Rosenau

— and following the certification.

MR. HARDY: May I ask a few questions of Dr. Servatius concerning this field, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

MR. HARDY: Was this affiant a Jew himself. Dr. Servatius? Is the affiant a Jewish person?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, he testified before Tribunal No. III in the case of the judges and said he was a Jew, in the sense of the Nuernberg laws. He reiterated that yesterday.

MR. HARDY: He was retained as chief of the asylum in Germany during the war?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, there was a Reich Association of Jews who enjoyed certain rights, among others the administering of this institution. I think it may be expedient to refer to his testimony before Tribunal No. III.

MR. HARDY: Was this Jew, who was a Jew, according to Nuernberg laws, a member of the Nazi party?

DR. SERVATIUS: I asked him yesterday whether he belonged to the SS, SA, or Party and he said "no".

MR. HARDY: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Does this conclude the list of the documents counsel desired to offer in evidence?

DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, this concludes my case on behalf of Karl Brandt.

MR. HARDY: Concerning this affiant, do you mean he was married to a Jew or is half Jewish or some such situation as that? He isn't a full-blooded Jew?

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I haven't asked him about this delicate subject. I am sure the prosecution before Tribunal III has dealt with this question in great detail, and you will be able to look it up.

MR. HARDY: That will not be necessary.

THE PRESIDENT: Is counsel for Rudolf Brandt present?

DR. WEISGERBER: Counsel representing Dr. Kaufmann, representative of defense counsel Brandt.

As counsel on behalf of Rudolf Brandt there are two documents which I wish to submit; one is an affidavit executed by Gustav Schoening, residing in Teltow, who makes a statement regarding Rudolf Brandt's personality. The affiant is an old social democrat and states that is the reason he is thus qualified to make a statement on this question. This document is offered by me as Rudolf Brandt Exhibit 20.

The next document Rudolf Brandt No. 21, which I offer as Rudolf Brandt Exhibit 21, which is an affidavit of Frau Erna Brosig, nee Ladewig This statement also is a statement concerning the defendant Rudolf Brandt personality.

This concludes the submission of evidence on behalf of the defendant Dr. Rudolf Brandt.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel. I will ask counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky how many documents he is proposing to offer?

MR. HARDY: I think Dr. Seidl has one document he could put in quickly.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will hear from Dr. Seidl.

DR. SEIDL: Counsel for defendant Karl Gebhardt.

Mr. President, I ask to submit the document which I was approved to submit at a later date last Saturday. We are concerned with an affidavit executed by Dr. Karl Gebhardt, which is Document No. Karl Gebhardt 47, and I submit it as Exhibit No. 45.

THE PRESIDENT: No copies in English of this document are available to the Tribunal, as far as I know.

DR. SEIDL: Last Monday I handed the copies to the translating division. Apparently they have not yet been translated. I ask for your permission to submit the original now and hand the translations to the Tribunal when and if they are finished.

MR. HARDY: This is the document, Your Honor, in answer to the prosecution affidavit of one Fritz Suhren, which the prosecution offered in rebuttal on Saturday.

It is an affidavit by the defendant Gebhardt himself. I think we discussed that earlier this week one time. I am confused; I forgot the ruling of the Tribunal on this particular document at that time.

THE PRESIDENT: Without the translation or knowing anything about the document the Tribunal cannot determine whether it is admissible under the rules or not.

MR. HARDY: I think Dr. Seidl purports that this affidavit is in answer to the affidavit that the prosecution submitted, which is dated in April 1946 given by Fritz Suhren, the former commandant of concentration camp Ravensbruck, and in this affidavit it is pointed out Fritz Suhren had knowledge concerning the activity of Gebhardt at the camp and the status of the girls. It was my opinion when arguing this once before that the affidavit of Suhren was in rebuttal, attempting to rebuttal Gebhardt's examination. Dr. Seidl wishes now to offer this affidavit of Gebhardt as sur-rebuttal.

THE PRESIDENT: This will be received in evidence.

DR. SEIDL: This will be Gebhardt Exhibit 45. If the Tribunal wishes, I can submit four copies in the German language until such time as the English translations are available.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. You may do so.

MR. HARDY: I think defense counsel for Poppendick has another affidavit, or you may wish to adjourn at this time.

THE PRESIDENT: It may be submitted when the Tribunal reconvenes at 1:30.

I would ask Dr. Flemming, counsel for Poppendick, how many affidavits he proposes to offer, outside of this transcript from Tribunal No. II; all that is necessary to offer with that is a certificate from the Secretary General. Outside of that I understand you have five documents?

DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in addition to the documents which are being certified by the General Secretary, I have another 20 documents.

I would suggest I hand the originals to Mr. Hardy, which would enable him to look at them with the assistance of his German speaking assistants, and that I would be permitted to submit them to the Tribunal after recess.

THE PRESIDENT: We have Document Book III by Mrugowsky.

DR. FLEMMING: These are the excerpts from the Pohl record. The other documents, the other affidavits, which I submit, are in Supplement II.

THE PRESIDENT: I have here a "Table of Contents of Supplement III" by Mrugowsky, evidently what appeared by the statement of the prosecution's witness Kogon.

DR. FLEMMING: Yes, these are the testimonies of Kogon in the Pohl tribunal. Supplemental Volume 2 is also the other one I intend to offer.

MR. HARDY: Supplement 2 is the one Mr. Hodges said we would get today. I think we could hold up on Dr. Flemming and I think we will get the English today.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30.

(Thereupon a recess was taken.)