1946-12-16, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 December 1946, 0930-1630; Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants are present in court this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will so record.
Defendants' counsel will proceed with the cross-examination of the witness.
AUGUST VIEWEG -- Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglbock):
Q: Witness, this is a question directed to your personal data. When exactly were you born; what day and what year?
A: On the 17th of September, 1895.
Q: In Hanover?
A: Yes, in Hanover.
Q: On Friday you told us that you were the Kapo of the Professor Schilling malaria experiments.
A: No, I was never a Kapo acting at the Malaria Station of Dr. Schilling.
Q: Didn't you have a position which was similar to the one of Kapo?
A: We were employed in the laboratory of Dr. Schilling.
Q: You have told us that you were able to watch the proceedings in that sea water station from your barracks. Is that right?
You have told us that people were carried into the courtyard in stretchers. I am now asking you, can you tell us why there people were carried into the courtyard?
A: On various occasions I saw people being carried into the courtyard. Part of these people were sent into the barracks of the hospital because they were exhausted. In two or three cases I saw how these people, who were carried on the stretchers in that manner -
Q: (Interposing) We will talk about that later. We are going to say something about the morgue; we will come to that later.
On that occasion, didn't you see a photographer who was taking pictures?
A: I saw one in the courtyard between the laboratory and the experimental station, and I was able to watch photographs being taken on numerous occasions.
Q: How were the light conditions in these barracks? Were they sufficiently equipped for photographic work?
A: I can hardly judge that; the photographs which I saw were taken in the courtyard.
Q: You told us about a quarrel between a nurse and one experimental subject. I am asking you, was that at the beginning or at the end of the experiment with sea water?
A: I think it was at the beginning of the experiment. I now remember the name of that nurse. The first name was Max. There were some differences of opinion, and they fought it out in the courtyard. After that the nurse would --
Q: (Interposing) Very well. Can you remember the nationality of this Max? Wasn't he an Austrian, coming from Styria?
A: Yes, I think he was an Austrian, and he came from Styria. I think he was even a Gypsy.
Q: Thank you.
Can you not remember, perhaps, whether Max was doling out the rations to the people justly?
A: I can't say that, but I think that the quarrel concerned this distribution of rations.
Q: Were you able to walk freely around the hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had an opportunity daily to speak to the nurses and the experimental subjects, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't they tell you about important happenings there, and not only the details which you have already mentioned to us on Friday?
A: After the early days of the sea water experiments these inmates did not leave their rooms, so that we were unable to talk to them.
Q: But you did have an opportunity to find out something about what was going on there?
A: Yes; we talked about various matters, but I cannot remember any details
Q: Now, the most important thing; did you hear that there were any dead there, people who had died because of the experiments?
A: I only remember from my own observations, that I saw how persons were carried down to the morgue from that station.
Q: But you did not have a positive report that somebody died?
A: I cannot say that under oath. I cannot remember that exactly now.
Q: Do you also remember that medical students were living next door to the barracks who were inmates too?
A: Next to the barracks, as far as I remember, there was this chamber, which I believe was formerly the pathological museum.
Q: Didn't you see any medical students there, walking about in their white robes?
A: Nurses, yes.
Q: Do you know the nurse who was an innate too? The name is Pielweil.
A: Yes, I remember that name. He was a young, strong man, coming from Vienna.
Q: Yes, I think so.
Now let us return to the carrying out of the dead. Did Pielweil ever tell you that any fatalities occurred?
A: I cannot say that now.
Q: Is it possible that the bodies which were carried in the direction of the hospital morgue were perhaps carried to the X-ray station or a laboratory?
A: The road to the morgue went across the courtyard; the way to the X-ray station was in an entirely different direction.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, our headphones are dead. We couldn't hear the last two or three questions very well. I suggest that we discontinue until the phones are put into condition.
THE PRESIDENT: It is reported that some of the earphones are not working. That had better be investigated.
BY DR. MARX (Counsel for the Defendant Becker-Freyseng):
Q: Witness, you spoke about a Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau. I am now asking you did you see some kind of a placard or a letterhead where such a name could be seen?
A: No.
Q: Well, then, how did you find out about that name?
A: This name was mentioned among the inmates because the experiments that were carried out there were allegedly for the benefit of the Luftwaffe.
Q: Did you at that time see anything about Dr. Rascher, and at the time Dr. Beiglboeck came there, was Rascher there when Dr. Beiglboeck came or was he not? Did you know about Dr. Rascher?
A: Yes, I knew about him. I saw him daily.
Q: Did you see any connection between Rascher and Beiglboeck or had Rascher already left when Dr. Beiglboeck arrived in Dachau?
A: I cannot say anything about that.
Q: Well, I thought you had such good powers of observation.
A: The successor of Dr. Rascher was Dr. Kurt Bloetner.
Q: Did you at any time see a Luftwaffe officer talking to Dr. Rascher? Did you ever see them talking to him?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you describe them? Can you tell us something about their rank or how they looked?
A: I remember having seen two gentlemen from the Luftwaffe there. One was tall and slim and the other was somewhat stouter. However, I do not remember their rank.
Q: Were they medical officers?
A: No. They were Luftwaffe officers.
Q: Can you differentiate? Can you differentiate?
A: Yes, according to their uniforms.
Q: Well, did they have this yellow sign? What did the Luftwaffe officer lock like?
A: I cannot tell you that exactly. We had been told that this was Mr. "So-and-so," and the other one had another name, but we were never told what rank they had, and I cannot remember that.
Q: But you are sure that they were officers? You are sure that they were officers of the Luftwaffe and not medical officers?
A: I cannot say that. It had been said that he was a professor or something like that. I am not sure about it.
Q: Did you know that Dr. Rascher was in connection with the Institute for Military Science in connection with Ahnenerbe? And is there any possibility that you interpreted that institution as a Luftwaffe institution? Is that possible?
A: Yes, that is possible.
Q: So at that time there was no name of Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau, but what you wanted to say was that "I was of the opinion that there could be such an institute, but I am not sure about it," and you merely drew a conclusion, is that right, because if such experiments were carried out there? Is that a correct statement?
A: Yes, that is correct, and I did not want to express myself with reference to the Rascher Institute as "Luftwaffe Institute."
Q: Yes. That was me rely your way of thinking that this was a Luftwaffe Institute.
A: Yes.
Q: But if you were to be told that possibly it was not a Luftwaffe Institute, then you would still leave that question open, wouldn't you?
A: Well, I know that the Rascher Institute was called an Institute for Military Science, and functioned as such.
Q: Well, that is what I wanted to know. Can you say when you saw Rascher for the last time? Can you tell us that approximately?
A: I cannot tell you that exactly. However, I assume it was at the end of 1943, at the end of 1943. I think it was in the Fall of 1943. I cannot remember exactly.
Q: You said before that you had discussions with these experimental subjects. In what language did you have these discussions?
A: They were in the German language.
Q: Well, did these gypsies know German?
A: The gypsies that were used in the sea-water experiments could speak German.
Q: So you could speak to them in German, you and the gypsies?
A: Yes. That is correct.
Q: And when did you have these conversations with them, before the experiments or after the experiments?
A: Partly after the experiments and partly during the first days of the experiments when they were still locked out.
Q: So what you want to say is that you spoke to them during the time when they were actually being experimented upon? We have to differentiate between various times here, first, the time when the people received their full ration and then after these eight days there were the real experiments, and I am referring to the time of the real experiments. Could you speak to them, to any of the experimental subjects at that time?
A: No.
Q: But you just said that you spoke to them during the experiments. When was that?
A: That was during the first few days when they received Luftwaffe rations.
Q: Did they complain at all? Didn't anyone complain about this? You said before they were locked out, but you cannot say that they were locked out -- how do you arrive at that expression, "locked out"?
A: Because these people were separated from the other inmates in a special room and could only speak to us partly through the window.
Q: Was there no supervisory personnel there?
A: Not during the first day. At that time when they weren't being experimented upon yet, these things weren't taken so seriously.
Q: I still wanted to ask you how can you state that these experimental subjects at the time they received their full nourishment could make any complaints towards you?
A: Because of the uncertainty as to the purpose they were being used for, and they were afraid on that account, and they merely were afraid because they didn't know what their fate was to be.
Q: Well, if I understood you correctly they feared because they were in uncertainty, and that was why they spoke to you through the window, Mr. Vieweg?
A: Yes.
DR. MARX: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY DR. WILLE (Counsel for the Defendant August Georg Weltz):
A: I have the following questions to you, witness: in connection with the experiments of the Luftwaffe in Dachau, did you ever hear the name of Professor Weltz mentioned? Can you remember that?
A: At the moment, no. I cannot remember.
Q: You, therefore, never saw this gentleman there?
A: I can neither deny nor affirm that.
Q: He has never been pointed out to you by other inmates?
A: I cannot say that at the moment since my recollection is a little weak because of other experiments taking place at that time.
Q: Can you recognize him? Is he here among the defendants?
A: It is very difficult for me since the gentlemen who were there were all in uniform, and I would not like to say anything which I cannot say with certainty.
Q: Well, as a result, I can conclude that you never heard the name of Professor Weltz mentioned?
A: That I would not say.
Q: But at any rate, you cannot say anything to the contrary; you cannot say that you heard the name mentioned?
A: I can neither say that, naturally.
Q: And you can neither say --
DR. WILLE: Well, that is sufficient.
BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for the Defendant Rose):
Q: I have a few questions to the witness. Witness, on Friday you showed good knowledge with reference to certain malaria questions, obviously on the basis of knowledge which you gained with Professor Schilling. I am now asking you to answer the following questions which refer to some very important details. During your examination by the Prosecuting Counsel you spoke of some regrettable incidents during which people during the course of the malaria experiments conducted by Professor Schilling had died. At that time you mentioned about seven cases, but you only spoke about one case in detail, who in addition to malaria had yellow fever and then because of a liver puncture bled to death. I am nor asking you to tell me something about the reasons for the death of the other six persons, the other six patients.
A: The other six patients were the so-called medicament death cases. One patient died as a result of the salvasan drug. The other one died as a result of the so-called Periphere experiment, and the four last onces died as a result of a Pyramidon experiment.
Q: Were the patients who after being released from the station of Schilling and who received relapses after that, were they sent back to Professor Schilling's station?
A: If they reported back to us, they were taken back to the station.
Q: In that case were there any patients -- did any patients die in Professor Schilling's department who later on had malaria or relapses?
A: Patients who were in any condition that caused fear that they may die were transferred to another station.
Q: Do you remember that the malaria tierciania is not on illness which causes death?
A: As far as I know, nobody with us died because of malaria tierciania but as a result of the drugs died of the side diseases which appeared because of the malaria experiments.
Q: Did Professor Schilling say something to you with reference to these death cases who were under his responsibility and under his observation, and if so, how?
A: In the first cases, thinking of the patient who died as a result of the liver puncture and the next patient who died because of the salvasan injection, Dr. Schilling regretted these cases very deeply, and he tried to prevent such matters as much as possible, but the last four cases, referring to the Pyramiden experiment, he was told that these patients were in a very bad condition. In spite of that, he insisted that they continue to receive the Pyramiden drugs -- I think it was three grams per day -- and when these patients came into a condition where they started to have delirium, they were transferred from our station shortly before their death.
Q: And now something else: on Friday you testified that Dachau received Anopheles from Dr. Rose's institute and that there was an exchange of correspondence with reference to the difficulties which you had in the breeding of these eggs. Do you know where Dr. Rose worked, on which institute?
A: I think that these letters were addressed to the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin.
Q: Do you know from this correspondence whether these replies were made by Dr. Rose personally or by his assistant?
A: That I cannot say by memory -- from my memory. I remember that among others, there was a reply from a lady who was in charge of the breeding of these eggs in Berlin.
Q: This is probably an assistant who had worked with Rose for many years
A: Yes, but Professor Schilling, I think, first turned to Professor Rose and the replies probably primarily came from Professor Rose.
Q: Can you remember the name of the lady?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who Dr. Schilling dealt with and had correspondence with in addition to Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Rose?
A: I cannot say that from my memory, and I could only way that he had a correspondence with an institution in Dusseldorf called Graefenrad or something like that, and he asked for the breeding of these eggs there, and we received flies from there, living flies.
Q: Do you remember the name "Rose" from before, or did you only start recalling his name when you were first examined?
A: No. The name "Rose" remained in my recollection because I, myself, was inflicted with malaria which was called "Rose". He had these various immunization groups, the so-called malaria stock which had various different names, and I was with a group which was infected with a so-called Rose Culture
Q: You have testified before that you received eggs from Rome. However, you could not remember the name of this perhaps Professor Vissiroli, Dr. Rosni or Dr. Raphaeli?
A: I think it was Vissiroli.
Q: Did you also receive these eggs from Hamburg?
A: We received no eggs from the Tropical Institute in Hamburg, but Professor Schilling had correspondence with that Institute.
Q: Can you remember in what year you received these eggs from the Robert Koch Institute, rather from Professor Rose?
A: That was in the summer months of the year 1942.
Q: You have told us about a number of eggs -- a number of these flies which you had to breed in the vicinity of Dachau. Were you present?
A: There was one such detail who had to do that, and among them there was an SS man and one or two inmates. That happened in the swamps surrounding Dachau during the summer months. There were various water tests being male, and according to the degree of these swamps by order of Dr. Schilling these waters were infected with a mixture of pig food. During the winter months this detail was sent -- went around the cellars of the Dachau Camp and worked on that matter. These Anapheles flies were then examined by our laboratories and were used by it for breeding purposes.
Q: Can you say anything about the quantities that were caught?
A: It varied in the winter; sometimes they brought ten, sometimes thirty to fifty and sometimes sixty.
Q: Did your department in Dachau deliver any such eggs to other departments?
A: On one occasion we delivered such eggs, but I cannot remember where.
Q: I now come to the question of malaria culture. Where did Prof. Schilling receive his malaria cultures from?
A: I cannot say that exactly. I know that he received malaria culture from Essen, from Berlin. That already happened in February 1942, at the time when I was not at the station yet. I remember that we had 12 different malaria cultures. I know that Prof. Schilling used one; and also another man used one, I think his name was Flugg; in order to give one such culture the name of "Flugg".
Q: Can you remember the names of the other cultures?
A: We had the culture ELMENSEE; the culture MOSKAU; the culture FINNLAND: I cannot remember any others. We had twelve different cultures. I cannot remember their names in detail.
Q: What kind of malaria culture did you work with; was it QUARTIANA or TIERCIANA?
A: It was TIERCIANA.
Q: I want to tell you something about a few more names of cultures to see if you can remember any more: "MADAGASCAR"?
A: No.
Q: Vienna?
A: No.
Q: Horten?
A: No.
Q: "James"?
A: No.
Q: "Rome"
A: No.
Q: Sicily?
A: No.
Q: Sardinia?
A: No.
Q: Ukrania?
A: No.
Q: Dusseldorf?
A: No.
Q: Tropica Paparode?
A: No.
Q: Millens?
A: No.
Q: Charite?
A: No.
Q: Schilling?
A: No.
Q: Did Prof. Schilling say something to you about the peculiarities of the cultures with which he worked in Dachau and that he could recognize them from hid previous experience?
A: Partly, yes.
Q: At the time you were there, were patients infected with flies in hospitals which were outside your department in Dachau?
A: In my time, no.
Q: In order to gain a new culture for the department?
A: No, not at my time.
Q: But you can no doubt remember malaria being used in mental institutions and hospitals for the treatment of various conditions; did Prof. Schilling use infected malaria blood, or did he send out any infected malaria blood?
A: I can't remember that; I do not think so.
Q: You, yourself, suffered from malaria?
A: Yes.
Q: When were you at the station as patient?
A: On the second of April, 1942, I was sent to that station.
Q: And since when were you active in the breeding of the flies?
A: I stayed at the station for approximately 110 days. I was then released, and a few days after, I was recalled into the hospital, and was out to work at that station. But then the chief physician called me to him, on the basis of Dr. Schilling's wish, that I was to be kept at that station as an assistant in the laboratory.
Q: How was it that you received these malaria cultures from the outside since you could have used your flies on patients in Dachau?
A: These various cultures were only received from the outside at the beginning. Later, we used "Anophales" which we had bred ourselves; and we infected our own patients with that.
Q: The last question: How did these malaria cultures get to you from the outside; were they in blood, were they in dry powder, or were they flies?
A: Partly, there was infected blood; partly infected flies.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination of this witness on the part of any of the defense counsel?
(No response)
THE PRESIDENT: Has the Prosecution any Re-direct examination?
MR. HARDY: Yes, your honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, do I understand you to say that Rascher, Dr. Rascher, was not at Dachau at the time of the sea water experiments?
(No response)
MR. HARDY: I will repeat my question:
Q: Witness, do I understand you to say that Dr. Rascher was not at Dachau at the time of the sea water experiments?
A: I don't remember anything. Something isn't functioning right.
(testing of apparatus)
THE WITNESS: Ya wohl.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, during the course of the high altitude experiments, did you see Luftwaffe uniforms at Dachau?
A: If I am not deceived by my recollection, yes.
Q: Witness, during the course of the freezing experiments at Dachau, did you see personnel in Luftwaffe uniforms?
A: I cannot remember that in detail.
Q: Witness, during the course of the sea water experiments, did you see personnel wearing Luftwaffe uniforms at Dachau?
A: The sea water experiments were only conducted by Luftwaffe personnel. I saw a number of uniforms there; and a sergeant who only had admission to this room.
Q: Witness, you kindly tell this High Tribunal, what color the Luftwaffe uniform is?
A: The uniforms I saw there, according to my recollection, were dark blue uniforms; but it is impossible for me now to describe the exact uniform and rank insignia. At that time, it was a matter of course for us to discuss these various experiments, and I don't think my memory is deceiving me when I said that these sea water experiments were only carried out by the Luftwaffe. The SS physicians from the Camp did not participate, nor did any other medical officers.
Q: Witness, you have stated here that Standartenfuehrer Sievers visited Dachau and that Sievers had nothing to do with Malaria research, have you not?
A: I only know of STANDARTENFUEHRER Sievers because of his name and his appearance, during the negotiations about the transfer of our assistants to Dr. Bloetner's Institute of AHNENERBE.
Q: Do you know whether or not STANDARTENFUEHRER Sievers had knowledge of the malaria research work of Prof. Schilling; that is, did you ever see Dr. Sievers visiting Prof. Schilling's laboratory?
A: I saw STANDARTENFUEHRER Sievers in connection with Dr. Bloethner, and I saw him at Professor Schilling's laboratory. But whether questions of malaria research, or questions were discussed with reference to the transfer of personnel of Dr. Bloetner, I don't know, since I was not present during the negotiations.
Q: Now, witness, you have told this Tribunal in great detail about the various experiments at the Dachau camp, and that you had, yourself, been subjected to malaria experiments five times; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness, can you tell this Tribunal, what type of records, that is, case histories, were kept of each victim, at Schilling's malaria station?
AAt Prof. Schilling's station, every victim had a case history and a fever chart. His temperature was being taken every three hours, and his entire condition was noted down on that fever chart.
Prof. Schilling himself had two records. He worked on these fever charts daily; and there were two forms of card indexes where the fever, the treatment of drugs, and various other appearances were noted down in detail. There was no other case history in addition to that; but because of the current fever chart and the card indexes, for instance, we had a red and a yellow card index; and during the first year we had two records. But that is something which would start later on.
Q: Witness, I shall ask you to identify for the Tribunal these two cards.
MR. HARDY: If the Tribunal please, I have put on your bench Document Number NO.-983. This is an English translation of the cards in front of the witness at this time.
A: These cards are the original cards from our red card index system.
Q: This is the case history of your own case, Witness?
A: Yes, this is the case history of my own malaria immunization.
Q: Would you kindly tell the Tribunal how you obtained those two cards?
A: These two cards--I must tell you about that at length. In early April of the year of 1945 the order came from Berlin through Obergruppenfuehrer Gluecks to dissolve the malaria station; and all written and other material which could in any way be identified with the experiments were to be destroyed. Then by order of the chief physician we had to destroy all written material; books, card indexes, fever charts, everything was packed and was partly sent to the crematorium and partly was burned in the box stove of our hospital.
But since we still had a number of patients in the hospital and also about two hundred patients in the entire camp, who had only been infected for a short time, we were able to persuade the chief physician, Dr. Hintermeyer, to continue keeping the records, just removing the placards and signs in front of our doors and removing everything which in any way could be identified with malaria with only the exception of the curing of the patients. We wanted to cure them from the consequences of the disease.
Sturmbannfuehrer Hintermeyer permitted us to do that; and we continued to work. In order to enable us to make some kind of selection of the patients, we were allowed to keep this red card index so as to determine the names of such patients whom we wanted to continue treating.
This treatment continued until shortly before the arrival and also during the arrival of the liberating American troops. We were in that manner able to save this card index from extermination, in addition to a number of other materials.
Q: Witness, will you look at the card again and tell me on the third line where it says in parentheses in German "Subkutan Rose", what that refers to, witness?
A: That means that on the 2nd of April, 1942, there was a patient by the name of Becker, and five cubic centimeters of blood from his veins were injected into my skin underneath my chest.
The name "Rose's culture" means that this blood comes from a patient who was infected with the malaria culture of Rose.
Q: Witness, I realize you are not a medical man; but can you also point out what this card means in total; that is, can you read the dates of the card and explain to the Tribunal what each entry signifies?
A: Yes. On the 2nd of April I was infected with blood for the first time. On the 12th of April, that is, ten days later, for the first time I had this so-called pulmonary fever; and my temperature was 37.4. Since I belonged to a so-called immunization group, Group Number 25, I received a number of drugs; that is, they tried to prevent malaria coming to a head in my case. On the 13th of April, I received 2 grams of quinine. On the 14th of April, I received another 2 grams of quinine in the form of drugs. I had no fever until the 21st of April. On the 21st of April I received another injection of five cubic centimeters of blood from a very ill patient with the name of Zahn. Approximately ten days later I received a quinine injection of one gram.
Q: Witness, I don't think there is any necessity of your continuing on the rest of the entries. In whose handwriting were these entries made on that card? Do you know from your experience of the malaria station?
A: The first entries were made by our clerk. That was an Austrian lawyer 1942, he was released by Dr. Schilling; and then there were various other clerk This one entry, the word, "new infection", was written by Dr. Schilling himself.
From the 19th of December, 1943 onward, the entries were made by our clerk, who was a medical student from Luxembourg, by the name of Eugen Ost; and he, I think, made these entries until the very end.
Q: Witness, turn to the second card, the cack side; and it says on the right-hand side of the card, "Malaria Laboratory, Dachau 3K". Is that the title of Schilling's research laboratory?
A: Yes.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, your Honor. No, pardon me, sir. At this time I should like to introduce these two cards as Prosecution Exhibit Number 127. I might pass them up to your Honor so that you can see the original exhibit. Dr. Servatius informs me that we have given another document as Exhibit Number 127. In order to avoid confusion, will you change that exhibit Number to Exhibit Number 128? I have no further questions on redirect examination, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Prosecution may proceed. The witness is excused. Step down from the stand.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, the prosecution charges in the indictment-
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken).