1946-12-16, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
Prosecution: saltwater experiments
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, the prosecution charges in the indictment that the defendants Karl Brandt, Handloser, Rostock, Schroeder, Gebhardt, Rudolf Brandt, Mrugowsky, Seivers, Schaefer, BeckerFreyseng and Beiglbock are charged with special responsibility for and participation in the sea-water experiments set forth in Count 2, Paragraph 6, sub-paragraph G and Count 3, Paragraph 11. These experiments were also conducted at the Dachau Concentration Camp during the Summer and Fall of 1944. I shall turn now to Document No.442, which is on page one of your Honor's Document Book, which has been previously offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 33. Pardon me a moment, sirs. Change that exhibit number, your Honor, to Exhibit No.129. This is an affidavit of the defendant Rodolf Brandt. I shall read the affidavit:
I, Rudolf Emil Brandt, being duly sworn, depose and state:
1) I am the same Rudolf Brandt who already on 30 August 1946 swore to an affidavit concerning the low-pressure experiments which have been conducted on human beings at the Dachau concentration camp. Furthermore, I swore certain other affidavits referring to medical experiments on human subjects.
2) I am able for the same reasons set forth in paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of my affidavit of the 30 August 1946 to state the following with reference to experiments conducted on human beings.
Experiments to Render Sea-water Drinkable "3) The experiments with sea-water were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe during the summer of 1944 at the Dachau concentration camp.
German flyers were sometimes forced down at sea and were then without drinking water for considerable periods of time. The Luftwaffe had at its disposal two methods to make sea-water drinkable, one of them was extremely dangerous. Consequently General Schroeder, Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, requested Himmler to place experimental subjects at the disposal of the Luftwaffe at Dachau.
4) Himmler approved Schroeder's request and the experiments were carried out. It was expected that some of the prisoners would die as a result of the experiments, but I do not remember whether deaths occurred. Schroeder and his colleague in the Luftwaffe, from Milch down must have known -- according to my opinion -- that these experiments as well as the low-pressure and freezing experiments, have not been conducted on volunteers only.
MR. HARDY: And now I respectfully request the Tribunal to turn to page 3 of your Document Book. This is Document No.449, offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.150. This is an affidavit of the defendant, Schroeder:
I, Oskar Schroeder, being duly sworn, depose and state:
1. I was born in Hannover on 6 February 1891. In 1910 I entered the Kaiser-Wilhelm Academy in Berlin to prepare for an army career in the Medical Corps. At the outbreak of the first world war, I was a non-commissioned medical officer and in 1916 after passing the state medical examination, I became second Lieutenant in the medical corps. During the first world war I worked as a medical officer in the infantry and after getting wounded I became adjutant to the corps medical officer. I continued to serve in the army after the war. During the years 1920 to 1925, I received specialized training in Koenigsberg and Wuerzburg. On 1 January, 1931, I was transferred to the office of the medical inspector of the army and worked as a physician. I also worked on military hospital and administrative matters. In May, 1935, my old friend and fellow student Hippke asked me to become his Chief of Staff in the newly established medical department of the Reich Ministry for Aviation. I remained as Chief of Staff to Hippke; who in 1937 became known under the title of Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. In February 1940, I was appointed physician for Air Fleet II. In this position I had the rank of a Major General in the Medical Services. On 1 January 1944, I was appointed Hippke's successor and thus became Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. Simultaneously I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General in the Medical Service.
2. The office of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe was continuously occupied with various kinds of scientific experiments. This scientific research included high altitude, freezing and seawater experiments which were conducted at the Dachau Concentration Camp. To this category belong the experiments that Dr. Haagen conducted with typhus and other vaccines.
3. Experiments to make seawater drinkable were conducted in Dachau during the summer of 1944. The Luftwaffe was interested in developing a method of making seawater drinkable since fliers had to make forced landings on the high seas. The navy was also interested in this problem. We had two methods of making seawater drinkable; one had been developed by Konrad Schaefer, the other was an invention of Berka.
I might add parenthetically, Your Honors, the Berka method was one which camuoflaged the taste of seawater but not its toxicity, in which sugar and a food extract was added, and in the Schaefer method a chemical process was used, which separated the salycilates from the water.
Schaefer's method had several disadvantages which resulted from the bulk of the necessary equipment and from the lack of needed chemicals. Therefore the Inspectorate of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe as well as the Technical Bureau of the Reich Ministry for Aviation discussed the possibility of employing the Berka method.
4. Dr. Von Sirany, a Luftwaffe physician in Vienna had conducted certain experiments on human beings with seawater which had been processed according to the Berka method. These experiments indicated that the use of Berkatin caused Diarrhea. The consulting expert on Aviation Medicine, Becker-Freysing, who had been my subordinate since January, 1944, (prior to this time Becker-Freyseng had been assistant to Anthony who was chief under Hippke) took the position that the experiments conducted by Sirany were not conclusive since the conditions were not as difficult as as the so on the high seas.
Professor Eppinger as well as Professor Houbner insisted that the Berka method be developed until it could be used.
5. Therefore, a meeting was called in May 1944, in order to discuss what further stops should be taken. BeckerFreyseng and Schaeffer attended the meeting as representative of my office. As a result of the meeting it was decided to conduct further experiments on human beings supplied by the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler. Becker-Freseng drew up a letter which was sent to Himmler. In this letter, which I signed, I asked Himmler for test subjects. The latter consented to the execution of these experiments, and they were then conducted in Dachau under the direction of Eppinger's assistant, Dr. Beigelbeeck, who supervised the experiments for the Luftwaffe. If I remember correctly, gypsies who had been sentenced to death were used as test subjects.
6. Dr. Eugen Haagen from the University of Strassburg conducted certain scientific investigations which included the development of typhus vaccines. Luftwaffe o Sanitarian, Brigadier General, Med. Corps, Gerhard Rose supervised Haagen's research work. Rose worked on all hygienic problems on order of the Luftwaffe, as well as on his own initiative. Rose had to be informed of all research work which consultant Hygienists, such as Haagen, conducted by order of the Luftwaffe. Becker-Freyseng was also familiar with these experiments. The above mentioned consulting hygienists of the Luftwaffe were paid on a war-time basis by the Luftwaffe.
7. Haagen was a member of the Reich Office for Public Health prior to his appointment as professor to the University of Strassburg. His assistant was Dr. Dohmen. Dr. Heinz Kalk was consulting physician of the Luftwaffe for internal medicine. Dr. Kalk was Hilch's attending physician. Dr. Buechner is professor of pathology and was director of the Pathological Institute of the Luftwaffe in Freiburg, and was senior physician for practical pathological research of the Luftwaffe. Dr. Zuchschwert was professor of surgery at Stressburg and consulting surgeon of of Air Fleet III. Dr. Egbert Kahnt was my Chief of Staff. His predecessor was Wullen.
8. Karl Brandt, Handloser and Rostock were informed of the medical research work conductod by the Luftwaffe. Handloser was Chief of the Medical Service of the Armed Forces, and my superior in medical matters. Restock was Chief of the Office for Science and Research under Karl Brandt who first was Commissioner General of the Health Service and later Reich Commissioner. It was Restock's duty to avoid duplication in the distribution of assignments in the sphere of medical research. Therefore, all distribution of assignments had to pass through Restock's office. If, for instance, I assigned Koch or Haagen some research work, a copy would go to Restock to inform him of the nature of the work. Then Restock could tell whether that particular job had already been worked on by someone else or whether it could lead to worthwhile results. Copies of orders for research work also went to Handloser.
I now continue to page 6 of Your Honors' Document Book, which is Document No.474, and will be offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.131. I shall read the affidavits:
I, Konrad Schaefer, being duly sworn, depose and states:
1. I was born on 7 January 1911 at Huehlhausen, Alsace. I studied at the Universities of Munich, Heidelberg, Berlin and Innsbruck. I took my state medical examination in December 1935, at Heidelberg.
2. In November 1941 I was drafted into the Luftwaffe, and ultimately obtained the rank of Assistenzarzt (2nd Lieuten ant Medical Service.)
The following year I was assigned to the Reich Institute for Aviation Medicine in Berlin. My principal work was medical research on sea emergencies, which included research for a method to make seawater potable. I worked out the theory of a process to make seawater potable, which was chemically developed by I. G. Farben. There was, however, another process under consideration by the Luftwaffe, called the Berka method.
3. In May 1944 I was ordered by the Office of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe to attend a meeting called for the purpose of considering further research on making seawater potable. Present were Becker-Freyseng, research advisor to Schroeder, Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, Christensen of the Technical bureau of the Reich ministry of Aviation, and a number of other persons, including representatives of the Navy. It was decided at this meeting to conduct experiments on concentration camp inmates with the Berka process, although it was generally admitted that the Berkatit seawater process seriously impairs the health after 7 days, and causes death after 12 days at the latest. It was further decided that the human experimental subjects were to be fed only seawater, processed by the Berka method, for a period of twelve days, k committee composed of Professor Eppinger" who, by the way, recently committed suicide," Dr. Becker-Freysend, a representative of the Technical Bureau and a representative of the Navy, was appointed for the purpose of deciding the conditions under which the experiments would be carried out.
4. Seawater processed by the Berka method had already been tested on human beings by Dr. von Sirany at Vienna in the Spring of 1944. On orders of the office of the Chief of the Medical Services I looked over Sirany's experiments with Berkatit, and pointed out that the persons upon whom Sirqny experimented showed diarrhea symptoms.
I personally gave Becker-Freyseng a copy of my report which was meant for Schroedor, and therefore Becker-Freyseng and Schroeder must have known that the Berka Method was very dangerous. BeckerFreyseng and I were of the opinion that Sirany's experiments were not consummated since they did not simulate actual conditions of a sea emergency.
5. Before the experiments were started at Dachau, another conference took place in which among others, Prof. Huebner, Prof. Eppinger, Becker-Freyseng, Borka and I took part. This conference was held in June, 1944. Heubner and Eppinger were of the opinion that it was impossible to judge the value of the Berka method in advance, and that experimentation was necessary.
6. The experiments were carried out at the Dachau concentration camp by Dr. Beiglbeck, in the summer of 1944. In October 1944, Beiglbeck reported on these experiments at a meeting which took place in a bunker near the Zoological Gardens in Berlin. Schroeder, Becker-Freyseng and I were present. It is possible that Dr. Schuster, an air Force physician who worked at the Luftwaffe Medical Academy in Prague, was also present. Beiglbeck showed those present at the meeting numerous charts of analyses of the urine and blood of the experimental objects who were given only Berkatit to drink. Photographs and films were also presented and various groups of experiments were discussed. On the basis of this report I estimated that 20 to 40 persons were used for those experiments, which were carried out during a period of seven to twelve days. Dr. BEIGLBECK also reported that the experiments had resulted in swelling of the liver and nervous symptoms. Delirium and mental disturbances also appeared. As a result of this meeting, it was decided that the Berka process was absolutely of no use to the Luftwaffe.
7. It was an open secret in the highest medical circles that the Berks method was used on inmates of concentration camps. It was also known that seawater processed by the Berka method was substantially the same as seawater and was, therefore, exceedingly dangerous. I was always of this opinion, and personally advised Schrooder, Becker-Freyseng, Anthony, Christensen, Berka and Schickler of this, my opinion.
This affidavit obviously, Your Honors, shows the complete knowledge of the Defendant Schaefer in connection with the seawater experiments and indicates that he participated in the conferences prior to the actual experimentation; that at that time he contributed his little bit to each part of the conferences and later still, after the experimentation had been completed, he listened to the report and the results by the Defendant Beiglbeeck. The documentary evidence which I will present in a moment shall well establish the arrangements and conferences which took place in order to formulate the necessary plans for the subsequent experiments on the inmates at Dachau concentration camp.
I now ask the Honorable Tribunal to turn to page 9 of the seawater document book. This is Document No. NO-184 and is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.133. This is a letter -- pardon me, Your Honors, that is Prosecution Exhibit No.132. This is a letter from the Technical Bureau of the RIM to Himmler through Rudolf Brandt. I will read the document. This document is stamped "Secret" and has on the top "Mail Receipt Stamp of Personnel Staff of Reichsfuehrer SS"; on the letterhead of Reich Minister of Aviation and Supreme Commander of the Luftwaffe", from the Terminal Office. Another note "Please give in your answer to the above reference, date and short summary." The subject: "Rendering seawater potable".
Addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police, Personal Staff, Berlin. with reference to the interoffice conference between Colonel Engineer Christensen and Hauptsturmfuehrer Engineer Dohle, regarding the above mentioned matter, it is announced that two processes have been worked out by the office to render seawater potable: 1.) The I.G. method, using mainly silver nitrate. For this process quite a large plant needs to be set up, which would require about 200 tens of iron and cost about 250,000 RM. The amount of the product needed by the Luftwaffe and Navy, requires 2.3 to 3 tons of pure silver a month. Besides, the water which is rendered potable by this preparation has to be sucked through a filter, in order to avoid absorbtion of precipitated chemicals. These facts make the application of this process practically impossible.
2) The second process which was worked out is the so-called Berka Method. According to this method the salts present in the seawater are not precipitated, but are so treated that in drinking, they are not disagreeable to the taste. They pass through the body without eversaturating it with salts and without causing an undue thirst. No special plants are necessary for producing preparations needed for this process; nor do the preparations themselves consist of scarce materials. It can be presumed that this method will be introduced in the Luftwaffe and the Navy in a short time. Now that German technical science has actually succeeded in rendering seawater potable for people in distress at sea, in accordance with the above, the knowledge as to how foreign countries intend to solve this problem is no longer of prime importance. Naturally the office is very much interested in ascertaining how above all the United States has solved this problem, and it is requested that this information be sought, without, however compromising any person or any office too much. Should the office there be interested in the Berka-Method, lot us know. Samples can then be delivered The cube dispensed is not a preparation to render seawater potable, but a mill cube such as is already familiar to the offices." The signature of this letter is illegible for translation purposes.
The next document, Document No. NO-177, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 133, is a document which contains the reports on two meetings to plan the seawater research. This document is dated 23 May 1944, Technical Office, and there appears on the front page of the document a handwritten note: "Just received for reading given to Reichsfuehrer", and then the initials R. Br., meaning Rudolf Brandt; then an arrow in a point referring to the Reichsarzt SS -- that is the office of Grawits. This document is the minutes of the conference in regard to methods for making seawater drinkable, conference on 20 May 1944.
"Present:
1.) Ministerial Councillor Riecke, High Command of the Navy;
2.) Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Liesche, High Command of the Navy;
3.) Squadron Physician Dr. Helpap, High Command of the Navy;
4.) Captain-Navy Dr. Laurens, Admiral of the Submarines;
5.) Lieutenant Commander Schoffland, High Command of the Navy;
6.) Lieutenant Schoenfeld, High Command of the Navy;
7.) Councilor Schulz, High Command of the Navy;
8.) Commander Kugelmann, High Command of the Navy;
9.) Councilor Haustein, High Command of the Navy;
10.) Colonel Eng. Christenson, German Air Ministry;
11). Captain Dr. Schickler, RLM;
12.) Captain Berka, E-Tra, of Vienna;
13.) Captain Dr. Becker-Freising, Chief Medical Service, Luftwaffe;
14.) MCO Dr. Schefer, Medical Research Institute for Aviation.
On 19 May 1944 a preliminary discussion was hold at the German Air Ministry. Present were the following persons: Colonel Christensen, Captain Dr. Schickler, Captain Berka, Major Jewerrex, Chief of the Medical Service, Captain Dr. Becker-Freising, Dr. Schaefer and a Mr. Pahl.
At this meeting Captain Dr. Becker-Freising reported on the clinical experiments conducted by Colonel Dr. von Sirany, and came to the final conclusion that he did not consider them as being unobjectionable and conclusive enough for a final decision. The Chief of the Medical Service at this time, Defendant Schroeder, is convinced that, if the Berka method is used, damage to health has to be expected not later than 6 days after taking Berkatit, which damage will result in permanent injuries to health and -- according to the opinion of N.C.O, Dr. Schaefer -- will finally result in death after not later than 12 days.
I may insert here that Defendant Schroeder and Defendant Schaefer had expressed an opinion, prior to the time that such experiments were carried cut that such experiments would be danger us to the health of the subjects used. Schaefer went so far as to say "will finally result in death after not later than 12 days". I will continue to read the document.
External symptoms are to be expected such as drainage, diarrhea, convulsions, hallucinations, and finally death. As a result of the preliminary discussion it was agreed to arrange new series of experiments of short duration.
A commission was to be set up for the arrangement of these series of experiments. This commission should be set up together with the High Command of the Navy at the conference on 20 May 1944.
1.) a) Persons, to be given sea water processed with the Berka method
b) Persons, to be given ordinary drinking water
c) Persons, without any drinking water at all
d) Persons, given to drink according to the present method (0.71 of drinking water for 4 persons and 4 days) During the duration of the experiments all persons receive only an emergency sea diet such as provided for persons in distress at sea.
Duration of experiments: Maximum 6 days.
In addition to these experiments a further experiment should be conducted as follows: Persons nourished with sea water and Berkatit, and as diet also the emergency sea rations.
Duration of experiments: 12 days Since in the opinion of the Chief of the Medical Service permanent injuries to health, that is, the death of the experimental subjects has to be expected, as experimental subjects such persons should be used as will be put at the disposal by Reichsfuehrer SS.
Mr. Pahl reports that due to the latest improvements in the I.G. (Farben concern) method smaller quantities of iron needed for the construction of the manufacturing equipment, than were originally provided and estimated by I.G.. Mr. Pahl reports further that if the Wefatit equipment which has to be constructed could not be used later for the manufacturing of the sea water preparation another use would be quite possible.
I will turn to page 15, a continuation of the same document. This is Professor Eppinger of Vienna, representative of the Chief of the medical Service of the Air Force, representative of the German Air Ministry, Representative of the High Command of the Navy.
Captain Dr. Becker -Freising is being contemplated as representative of the Chief of the Medical Service. Captain Dr. Schickler and. Captain Berka as representatives of G.L. and Professor Orzichowski as representative of the High Command of the Navy. It was decided that Berlin, German Air Ministry should be the meeting place of the commission. (The originally proposed meeting place was changed from Munich to Berlin after a telephone call of Dr. Becker-Freising's); and that the of the meeting should be 25 May 1944, 10:00 AM. It was decided that Dachau was to be the place where the experiment were conducted.
Captain Dr. Becker-Freising would invite Professor Eppinger and would get in touch with the Reichsfuehrer SS. The High Command of the Navy would invite Professor Orzichewski.
Distribution: High Command of the Navy-Medical Department. High Command of the Navy-Department for Research, Inventions and Patents. Research Operation of the Reich Minister for Aviation and Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe.
then we have here "For Information of: "--I didn't notice this, Your Honor, until just now. I obviously have had Page 15 of this Document Book and Page 16 are in the wrong order. Page 15 should follow Page 16 where I have just read, "The commission which has to determine the conditions for the series of experiments still to be conducted is composed as follows: "--And on the top of Page 15 it starts with the Commission.
Page 4 of the original German Document, which is Page 17 of Your Honors' Document Book, gives the distribution list of the reports of these meetings. It's quite interesting, Your Honors.
"Medical Experimentation and Instruction Division of the Air Force Jueterbog." This Your Honors will remember was the same Schaefer who was listed in Document NO-402 which was offered as Prosecution Exhibit 93 the other day by Mr. McHaney as the place from which the defendant Schaefer came; also, the defendant Schaefer is listed in this report, and now on the distribution list is his organization, which by the way was also the same organization that Holzloehner of the freezing experiments came. This right indicate the reason for Schaefer being present at the freezing experiments converence at Nuernberg.
We also turn to the next on the distribution list, "Institute for Aviation Medicine, D.V.L., Berlin-Adlershof." That is Ruff's Institute--defendant Ruff's Institute.
We turn also--it goes down to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and the Technical Academy in Vienna, which was the organization of Professor Eppinger. You will note this document was signed by C. Christensen, and immediately under that is a handwritten note, which isn't quite clear. It, however, indicates that the defendant Gebhardt comes into our picture in the sea water experiments. It shows the note "A-" and then the "RSHA," which is the Reich Main Security Office. And then a note, "Through asocial gypsies," and the name "Gebhardt." And the name Gebhardt underlined.
We now turn to Document No. NO-185 of Your Honors' Document Book, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.134. This is a letter from the defendant Schroeder to Heinrich Himmler requesting experimental subjects.
This letter is dated 7 June 1944. As you noted in the defendant Schroeder's affidavit, he said that this letter was prepared also by Becker-Freyseng and signed by himself.
To the Reich Minister of the Interior and Reichsfuehrer-SS. Through the Reichsarzt-SS and Police.
Highly respected Reich Minister:
Earlier already, you made it possible for the Luftwaffe to settle urgent medical matters through experiments on human beings. Today I again stand before a decision, which, after numerous experiments on animals and also on voluntary human subjects, demands final resolution:
--I might call to the attention of the Tribunal the words "voluntary human subjects," which indicate that they have completed their work as far as possible on volunteers and now must resort to concentration camp inmates.--
The Luftwaffe has simultaneously developed two methods for making sea water potable. The one method, developed by a medical Officer, removes the salt from the sea water and transforms it into real drinking water; the second method, suggested by an engineer, leaves the salt content unchanged, and only removes the unpleasant taste from the sea water. The latter method, in contrast to the first, requires no critical raw material. From the medical point of view, this method must be viewed critically, as the administration of concentrated salt solutions can produce severe symptoms of poisoning.
As the experiments on human beings could thus far only be carried out for a period of four days
--obviously because they were working on volunteers at that time--
and as practical demands require a remedy for those who are in distress at sea up to 12 days, appropriate experiments are necessary.
Required are 40 healthy test subjects, who must be available for 4 whole weeks. As it is known from previous experiments, that necessary laboratories exist in the concentration camp Dachau, this camp would be very suitable.
Direction of the experiments shall be taken over by Stabsarzt lecturer Dr. Beiglbock, civilian profession: Chief Physician of the Medical University Clinic in Vienna (Professor Dr. Eppinger). After receipt of the basic approval, I shall list by name the other physicians who are to participate in the experiments. 484 "Due to the enormous importance which a solution of this problem has for soldiers of the Luftwaffe and Navy who have become shipwrecked, I would be greatly obliged to you, my dear Reich Minister, if you would decide to comply with my request.
/s/ Schroeder
This letter obviously indicates the position and stand of the defendant Schroeder who at this time was the Chief of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe. Here he is asking Himmler for experimental subjects and obviously realizes that the ultimate result is death.
I turn now to Page 20 of Your Honors' Document Book which is NO-179 offered as Prosecution Exhibit 135. This is a letter from the Reichsarzt-SS, Dr. Ernst Grawitz, to Heinrich Himmler, dated 28 June 1944, concerning experiments in the concentration camp instigated by the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, addressed to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, Field Command Post. Obviously, the Reichsfuehrer-SS was on a trip at this time.
"Top Secret (Military) "Reichsfuehrer:
The Chief of the medical Service of the Luftwaffe requests in the top secret (military) letter, enclosed herewith, that experiments be performed on prisoners in order to test two simple methods which seem to promise success for sea water potable.
In accordance with your order of 15 May 1944, Reichsfuehrer, I have requested the opinion of SS-Gruppenfuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks and SS-Gruppenfuehrer Nebe. They read as follows:
--You may turn back, Your Honors, at this time where Gebhardt was Chief Surgeion under the Reichsarzt-SS and there was an order existing that before any programs of experimentation took place, they must get the opinion of Professor Dr. Gebhardt. SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was in the WVHA. under Oswald Pohl and SS-Gruppenfuehrer Nebe was Chief of the Reich Criminal Police.
1.) SS-Gruppenfuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt:
'I deem it absolutely right to support the Luftwaffe in every way and to place a general physician of the Waffen-SS at disposal to supervise the experiments.' 485 "2.) SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks:
'Referring to the above letter, we report that we have no objections whatsoever to the experiments requested by the Chief of the medical Service of the Luftwaffe to be conducted at the experimental station Rascher in the concentration camp Dachau. If possible, Jews or prisoners held in quarantine are to be used.'
3. SS-Gruppenfuehrer Nebe:
'I agree with the proposal to conduct experiments on prisoners of concentration camps in order to evolve a method for making sea water potable. I propose taking for this purpose the asocial gypsy half breeds. There are people among them, who, although healthy, are out of the question as regards labor committment. Regarding these gypsies, I shall shortly make a special proposal to the Reichsfuehrer, but I think it right to select from among these people the necessary number of that subjects.
Should the Reichsfuehrer agree to this, I shall list by name the persons to be used.
To the proposal of the SS-Gruppenfuehrer Nebe to use gypsies for the experiment, I beg to raise an objection; to wit, that the gypsies being of somewhat different racial composition might possibly provide experimental results, which might not apply entirely to our men. It would, therefore be desirable, if such prisoners could be used for those experiments, as are racially comparable to European peoples.
I request most humbly being granted your approval in order to start with the experiments.
Heil Hitler. /s/ Grawitz.
And there is a handwritten note: "Gypsies and for control three others," Initialed: "HH"--initials of Heinrich Himmler.
You will note here the opinion of Grawitz when he states that "the gypsies being of somewhat different racial composition might possibly provide experimental results, which might not apply entirely to our men." It's interesting to note that they feel that experimentation on gypsies right not be the same as experimentation on the healthy European peoples, which might be comparable to the Nordic race.
MR. HARDY: We now turn to Document No. NO-183 which is Prosecution exhibit 136 -- a letter from the defendant Rudolf Brandt to Dr. Grawitz.
To the Reichsarzt - SS and Police SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Grawitz, Berlin
Subject: Experiments by the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.
Reference: Your Letter of June 28th 1944.
Obergruppenfuehrer!
The Reichsfuehrer-SS decided, that according to suggestion of SS-Gruppenfuehrer Nebe gypsies should be used for the experiments. In addition three other prisoners shall be made available.
Heil Hitler!
/s/ Brandt SS-Standartenfuehrer
So now the Luftwaffe have experimental subjects available to continued their research on seawater.
This next document, your Honors, page 23 of your Document Book, is NO-182 and is offered as Prosecution exhibit 137. Just the first slant of the defendant Sievers entering this picture - this is a letter from the defendant Sievers to Grawitz. Also a copy to 33-Standartenfuehrer Dr.Brandt for information. Addressed:
To the SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Reich-Arzt-SS and Police Dr. Grawitz
Subject: Experiments on the salubrity of seawater.
Refer: Your letter of July 11th 44.
Dear Obergruppenfuehrer!
I want to inform you about my talks with SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr.Ploetner and Chief Physician Dr. Beiglboeck in Dachau on 20 July. There will be employed: 1 person in charge, 3 medical chemists, 1 female assistant, 3 ranks for supervision. Prospective time: 3 weeks. In our research station only the 40 experimental persons can be accommodated, otherwise there is absolutely insufficient room since the section Ploetner is fully occupied and work can't be interrupted.
Our laboratory is insufficiently equipped, since some essential equipment is wanting. In spite of serious difficulties the following agreement was arrived at:
1.) in the section Ploetner a desk will be reserved (in the laboratory).
2.) the remaining rooms will be placed at our disposal in our Entomological Institute for the time of three weeks. Wanting equipment must be provided by the Luftwaffe. Thus it will be assured that the female assistants can work in Dachau too, because the Entomological Institute is located outside the concentration camp.
3.) Billets must be arranged between the Chief Physician Dr. Beiglboeck and the Kommandantura, since we have no billets at our disposal.
4.) SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ploetner will give his assistance, help and advice He was, however, not selected for internistic guidance, because that is being done by the Luftwaffe Physicians themselves.
The experiments are to begin on July 23rd, if until then experimental persons are available and the camp commander is in possession of the order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, he needs. Dr. Beiglboeck himself wanted to get in touch with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Frowein, Adjutant of the Reich-Arzt-SS on this subject I hope that this arrangement may permit a successful conduct of the experiments.
When the results are reported at the proper time, please arrange to point out the participation resp. assistance of the Reichsfuehrer SS.
With best regards and Heil Hitler! /s/ Sievers SS-Standartenfuehrer
This letter indicates that the defendant Sievers is here now making all arrangements for equipment, desks, everything to make it as easy as possible to conduct these experiments at Dachau.
This morning it was noted the witness Viewag said that he thought the Luftwaffe had an institute there. This is obviously the explanation for it.
The Military Institute which was at Dachau was under the control of Sievers. Here Sievers is setting apart a portion of that institute for use by the Luftwaffe to conduct those seawater experiments.
I now turn to Document no. NO-910 which is Prosecution exhibit 138. The next three exhibits, your Honor, are affidavits. These affidavits were obtained by our Document Chief from the Police Files in Vienna, Austria. They were sent to us as part of the Police Files and have been duly authenticated by our Document Chief. We have anticipated due to the fact that no certificate appears they would be questioned by defense counsel. They were received in due course of business and we offer them as true extracts of the Vienna Police files.
DR. STENBAUER: I objected strongly to the reading of document 910. In order to save time object at the same time to the reading of documents 911 and 912. Article 10, of the 7 -- even though Order 7, Article 10, establishes that the Tribunal is not bound any specific order of evidence, nevertheless the same article gives contain directions for the evidence. Such documents as this can be accepted in evidence including affidavits. If you look at the index of contents of Document Book 7 you will see that all three documents are listed as a affidavits. Then if you look at the documents themselves you will see that neither 910 or 911 indicates for whom these affidavits were given. One was taken down in Vienna and the other in Klagenfurt at different times. The least one could ask would be that there should be some mention of the authority or some warning to tell the truth to the person who is testifying here. This is not the case in any of these three documents. The last document, 912, is headed "Police Main Office, Vienna, State Police Department 3". It is true that in Article 7 or Order 7 records of interrogations can be accepted as evidence if they are given before an authority of one of the United Nations. My country, Austria, unfortunately does not belong to the United Nations. I am an Austrian lawyer and know Austrian laws. Evidence cannot be accepted taken before an administrative authority but only evidence taken before judicial authorities. Therefore, there is no obligation for these persons to tell the truth and not even any request to tell the truth. The witness Pillwein who wast the last one who was tested interests no especially.
If the Tribunal would only read these so-called affidavits I, as defense counsel, would not have the right to cross examine on the most important points. I have applied for Pillwein as a witness before this Court. I, therefore, ask that all three of these so-called affidavits not be admitted in evidence.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Secretary General, will you pass out the original documents.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, it appears that each time the Prosecution wishes to introduce an affidavit we will be faced with this same question. I would like to say a few words generally first on that subject before getting down to the three affidavits now in question.
We are making every effort to bring before this Tribunal witnesses to testify with respect to facts that they know of their own knowledge. However, Tie cannot bring before this Tribunal all the witnesses whom we have available to us. We have now examined, as I recall, two witnesses before this Tribunal. The witness Viewag consumed approximately four to six hours of the Tribunal's time, as I recall, and was cross examined by six or eight of the Defense Counsel. We propose to bring before this Tribunal between 15 and 20 witnesses. We also propose to ask this Tribunal to admit in evidence a substantial number of affidavits that have been taken from persons who were in a position to know the facts stated in the affidavits.
As to these three particular affidavits, you have heard the witness Viewag testify concerning the sea-water experiments. He also had hoped to present at the conclusion of this portion of the case another witness, Heinrich Stor, who will testify about the sea-water experiments. We will, therefore, have had two witnesses before the Tribunal regarding the seawater experiments. At the same time, we ask admission of three affidavits which are, in effect, cumulative evidence as to what the witnesses Vieweg and Stor have already testified or will testify to before this Court.
Obviously we cannot call into this Tribunal every person who has given an affidavit, and I submit that when the evidence given in the affidavit is cumulative, there is no reason whatsoever to refuse admission of the affidavit.
Now, as to the three particularly in question here, I think that it would be advantageous for us to look at them and see precisely what the objection is.
Now, Defense Counsel is apparently objecting that these affidavits are not sworn to; that is, that there is no notarization on the affidavits. Now, that is quite true. There is no notarization on them. Whether that is customary under Austrian law, I do not know. In our own country, affidavits, are, of course, generally excluded because they are hearsay. They are excluded because, firstly, it deprives the opponent of the right of cross-examination, and, secondly, because they are extra-judicial statements not given under oath.
Now, unfortunately, we here have an affidavit which is subject to both of those objections. Normally our affidavits are under oath. The reason these are not is because they were obtained, as Mr. Hardy explained, from the police files of the Austrian police, and the reason for that is because the defendant Beiglboeck was, as I understand it, at one time in the custody of the Austrian police. They conducted a very extensive investigation of this man, in the course of which they took the three statements which we now submit to the Court for admission.
Now, the only questions is whether these affidavits are admissible before this Court. The probitive value of them is something for Your Honors to decide, but I respectfully submit that they are certainly admissible under Ordinance Number 7, irrespective of the fact that they are not notarized or sworn to, an extra-judicial statement not under oath. The defendant will not have the right to cross-examine that man, but Article No. 7 clearly states that affidavits are admissible. I take it that it does not make any difference that both of the normal objections to hearsay are present in this case, while normally only one objection, the lack of the right of cross-examination, is present.
We got these affidavits only seven days ago, after considerable difficulty. We had no opportunity to any further into this matter, and so far as I can see we do not wish to call these three people here to testify because of the lack of time, and we do not think that it is necessary in view of the fact that we will have two witnesses testify to the sea-water experiments.
JUDGE SEBRING: What preliminary proof has been offered to this Tribunal that Document 910, purportedly signed by I. Bauer, is in truth and in fact the statement of I. Bauer?
MR. McHANEY: Well, Your Honor, there is no proof of that at all, and I submit that there would be very little more proof of it if we add an attestation to the bottom of them. It would normally be given by a Notary public in Austria, about which, of course, this Tribunal and myself would have no knowledge at all, so unless he attached some certificate of some sort proving who he was, I would assume that we would be no further along even if there were an attestation on it.
JUDGE SEEDING: What preliminary proof is there that this in face was a statement taken by the police of Vienna?
MR. McHANEY: The only thing that we would call proof on that would be the certificate that is attached to the original document now before the Court, certifying that it was taken from the file of the police department in Vienna; through the CIC detachment in Austria, in Vienna, we secured two files from the Austrian police force. We have the complete files. From those we removed these three statements.
JUDGE SEEDING: Do you state now that you have those files in your possession officially?
MR. McHANEY: Indeed we do. They were sent to us by the CIC in Vienna.
JUDGE SEBRING: They are now in the possession of the Prosecution?
MR. McHANEY: Sir?
JUDGE SEBRING: They are now in the possession of the Prosecution?
MR. McHANEY: They are. I understand that the Vienna police have requested that they be returned. I do not think they have been returned.
JUDGE SEBRING: Could you produce them before the Tribunal?
MR. McHANEY: I think we could, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will reserve its ruling until any such record has been produced before the Tribunal.
MR. McHANEY: It is now just a few minutes before the noon adjournment, and I would like to raise only one other point that the Tribunal may wish to rule upon. We now have in the Nurnberg jail a man by the name of Walter Neff, and the Tribunal probably has heard mention of his name in connection with some of the documents, particularly in connection with the high altitude and freezing experiments.
Walter Neff was first a prison assistant to Dr. Rascher and was in September 1942 pardoned by Heinrich Himmler and eventually put in a police reserve unit. We think that it would be desirable for the Tribunal to hear the testimony of Walter Neff in connection with the experiments of which he has knowledge in Dachau.
The Prosecution has duly served notice of the calling of Walter Neff on the Defense Counsel on last Saturday, about 12 o'clock. The Prosecution, however, is reluctant to call Walter Neff as its own witness. The reason we feel that way is because Neff may very well be indicted and tried in this courthouse for his participation in the experiments at Dachau, and we would not wish to be bound by what he might testify to in this Court, particularly with respect to what he might have to say about his own participation in those experiments.
On the other hand, he has more knowledge about what went on in Dachau, I think, than any other living man, and I think it might be very desirable for the Tribunal to hear what he has to say. I request, therefore, that Neff be called as a Court witness; that is, the witness of the Tribunal, and in that way the Prosecution would be free to examine him to any extent that might be necessary and also, if necessary, to impeach him? but, even more important, if he is later tried, we would not be in the position of having relied on his testimony before this Tribunal and then proceed to try him and perhaps submit proof at variance with what he had to say here, especially with respect to himself. I would ask the Tribunal to make a ruling on that.
I do not know when it would be convenient for us to call Neff--possibly late today or sometime this week. In any event, we have four Polish witnesses in Nurnberg now. We have two witnesses from Strassbourg. I would like for them to be able to testify this week so they would not have to stay in Nurnberg over the recess.
It might be that we would delay Neff's testimony, possibly until even after Christmas.
JUDGE SEBRING: Would it be your purpose, Mr. McHaney, in the event this witness was called to the stand and was required to testify, to use such testimony as might be elicited from the witness stand against the witness Neff in a subsequent prosecution?
MR. McHANEY: Well, that does not concern me quite so much as the possibility that he will take a defensive attitude as to his own participation in these experiments. I think that at that point his testimony may come into doubt. I think it would be fair if he were warned before he testified that anything he might say here could be used against him. It is just difficult to foresee what we might want to do with respect to his testimony at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 13:30 hours.)