1946-12-17, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. DANIEL SHILLER: Your Honors, the attorneys for the prosecution are unexpectedly delayed for a few minutes. I am sure they will be here in a moment or two.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, the next document is NO-213, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 171. That is a letter from the defendant Rudolf Brandt to Professor Clauberg. It's dated 10 July 1942.
Dear Professor:
Today the Reichsfuehrer-SS charged me with transmitting on his wish that you go to Ravensbruck after you have had another talk with SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl and the Camp Physician of the women's concentration camp Ravensbruck, in order to perform there the sterilization of the Jewesses according to your method.
Before you start your job, the Reichsfuehrer-SS would be interested to learn from you how long it would take to sterilize a thousand Jewesses. The Jewesses themselves should not know anything about it. As the Reichsfuehrer-SS understands it, you could give the appropriate injections during a general examination.
Thorough experiments should be conducted to investigate the effect of the sterilization largely in a way, that you find out after a certain time, which you would have to fix, perhaps by X-Rays, what kind of changes have taken place. In the one or the other case, a practical experiment might be arranged by locking up a Jewess and a Jew together for a certain period and to see then what results are achieved thereby.
I ask you to let me know your opinion about my letter for the information of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
Heil Hitler!
/s/ Brandt, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer.
The second copy of this letter went to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in Berlin with the request to acknowledge. SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Koggel also got a copy for the information of the Camp Physician. Moreover, the Reich Physician-SS and the Reich Main Security Office got a copy.
The third copy went to SS-Gruppenfuehrer Grawitz, the Reich Physician SS.
A fourth copy, to Koegel in the WVHA; and the Fifth copy to the Reich Main Security Office for again SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Guenther in Office IV B 4, which is noted as the Department for Jews.
And a handwritten note SS-Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, who is also in the Reich Main Security Office, with the initial Dr. which is the defendant Brandt.
This letter again indicates the true purpose of these sterilization experiments, and here the defendant Rudolf Brandt is suggesting that they carry out experiments on a thousand Jewesses to see just how long it would take before the method was applied on a large scale to wipe out the Jewish race. And he even goes further and makes the abominable suggestion that in order to determine the effectiveness of the sterilization upon the unsuspecting Jewess, that she and another Jew be put together in a room to see what effect this sterilization method had upon her.
I turn now to Document NO-215 which is another file note. This is dated 11 July 1942. There is no signature on the document; however, I think without question, that it was written by the defendant Rudolf Brandt, and we see the typed initials under the date in the lower left hand corner, "Bra/Dr," which very likely means Dr. Brandt -- the defendant Rudolf Brandt being called a doctor of law. This document will be Prosecution Exhibit 172.
On 8 July 1942, the Reichsfuehrer-SS, had a conversation with SS Brigadefuehrer Gluecks, SS-Brigadefuehrer Gebhardt and Professor Clauberg.
The subject of this conversation was the sterilization of Jewesses in concentration camps on a large scale. It was agreed that the Auschwitz camp will be put at the disposal of Professor Clauberg as an experimental station. After the initial experiments, the Reichsfuehrer-SS desires to have a report for the practical realization of sterilizations on a larger scale.
Moreover, the eventual consultation of Professor Hohlfelder as an X-Rayspecialist to try sterilization of men by X-Ray treatment was discussed.
Altogether the Reichsfuehrer-SS agrees that all necessary material will be made available to Professor Clauberg, for all experiments he intends to make.
The Court will note that this Prosecution Exhibit 172 is quite similar to the file note which we put in under Prosecution Exhibit 170, the name of Hohlfelder as the X-Ray specialist who will turn up again in the proof on the extermination of the tubercular Pole. The Court should not conclude that because of the kind of X-ray mentioned in some of these documents dealing with the Clauberg method, that this was a sterilization by means of X-Ray. I think the fact is that his method of sterilization was through the injection of some sort of solution into the uterus; and frequently in order to determine how far the solution had penetrated, X-Rays were taken.
The next document is NO-212, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 173, and here the good Dr. Clauberg is finally reporting on how long it takes to sterilize a thousand Jewesses This is a letter by Clauberg to Himmler. It is dated 7 June 1943.
Dear Reichsfuehrer: Today I am fulfilling my obligation to report to you from time to time about the state of my research work. In doing this I am -- as before -- adhering to my procedure to report only if the matter is essential. The fact that -- after my most recent interview in July 1942 -- I could not do so before today, is due to temporary difficulties in detail against which I myself was powerless, and with which I could not bother you, Reichsfuehrer. I mention as an example that only since February 1943 am I in possession of an X-ray installation, which is of great value to my special research. In spite of the short period of actually only 4 months, it is already today possible to report to you, Reichsfuehrer, the following: The method I contrived, to achieve the sterilization of the female organism without any operation, is as good as perfected. It can be performed by a single injection made from the entrance of the uterus in the course of the usual customary gynaecologic examination as known to every physician. If I say that the method is 'as good as perfected', this means: 1.) Still to be worked out are only minor improvements of the method. 2.) Already today it could be put to practical use in the course of our regular eugenic sterilizations and could thus replace the operation. As to the question which you, Reichsfuehrer, asked me almost one year ago, that is to say, how much time would probably be required to sterilize 1000 women by using this method, today I can answer you with regard to the future as follows: If my researches continue to have the same result as up to now -- and there is no reason to doubt that -then the moment is no longer far off when I can say: 'by one adequately trained physician in one adequately equipped place with perhaps 10 assistants (the number of assistants in conformity with the desired acceleration) most likely several hundred -- if not even 1000 per day'. Please permit me to postpone my report about the other part of my researches (positive population policy) because it will take some time until something essential can be said in this field.
Reichsfuehrer! The main reason for my reporting to you just today (that means shortly before the possibility of even more final results) is the following: I know that the settlement of the last part of this particular complex of problems -- in contrast to the external forces which determined the progress so far -depends now almost entirely on me. In this connection, several minor but nevertheless fundamental changes would be necessary which only you, my dear Reichsfuehrer, can personally direct and order. I had hoped that I would be able to give you personally a short description of these requirements in the event of a visit to Oberschlesion. Since I did not have this opportunity until now, I am asking you today for your decision. In addition I should like to make a further request. It was SS-Brigadefuehrer Do. Blumenreuter who finally managed to get me the one suitable X-ray installation. I am in urgent need of another installation of the same kind and he informed me in February that he had such another one stored in Berlin. He was ready to deliver it to me if I would secure your approv** May I ask you, Reichsfuehrer, for this approval?
Heil Hitler
/s/ Clauberg
Here we see, although he has made little or no progress on his positive population policy, which was the study of food and its effect upon propagation, he has made considerable progress in his negative population policy or the policy of genecide, and he is here able to report that from 200 to even a thousand Jewesses could be sterilized in one day by his method.
I turn now to Document NO-210, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 174. This is a letter from Professor Clauberg to the defendant, Rudolf Brandt. It is dated 6 August 1943.
Dear Obersturmbannfuehrer: Enclosed you will find a receipt for your letter to me of 19 June 1943, in response to a reminder referring to it dated 22 July 1943. I have to beg your pardon for the delayed sending in of this receipt; I overlooked the slip, which was attached to the inner side of the envelope, and therefore it remained unnoticed -- a consequence of my lack of experience. With reference to your letter 19 June '43, I want to thank you very much for it. Since the Reichsfuehrer has not yet been here, I should like to remark the following: I really do need the second X-ray installation -- I can give you the explanation only by word of mouth. At any rate, the probability exists that even more of the installations will be needed later on (it depends on the kind of application of my results the moment these are fixed). For I can get the installation without further difficulties, that is, it is 'waiting' for me -- really I have got it already I had the opportunity to acquire one myself and I quickly laid hands on it, and the installation is set up for some weeks. But what I care for is the followings: I urgently need this installation here in Koenigshuette for my contrary (positive) research. But I cannot spare it in Auschwitz until I get a second installation from the Waffen SS. If I may tell you something between ourselves -- the fact is that I will be able to replace this my own existing installation provided the Reichsfuehrer SS will give me his approval for it, and okays it. I would not bother either him or you with this unless it would be really necessary. There is another point: In Auschwitz they got used during my absence to using the original installation for other purposes, too.
Although I don't like this I cannot blame the gentlemen there because the X-ray installation there is in bad condition. I cannot tell you the whole story by writing and I also ask you to regard this letter of mine as purely personal. At any rate, I would be extremely obliged to you -- and you really would further the good cause -- if you would help me to get the permission for the second installation (which, as I mentioned beforehand, already exists). I would be thankful if you would answer soon. I ask you to give my most obedient regards to the Reichsfuehrer SS! The best regards to yourself'. Heil Hitler! Your obedient Professor Clauberg.
It is quite apparent why he doesn't tell the defendant Rudolf Brandt the full story in this letter. In the first place, it is quite apparent that the defendant Rudolf Brandt already knew the whole story and need not have it repeated in this letter. It is quite clear that he was using this X-ray installation in Auschwitz to further the sterilization of Jewesses there and he speaks of wanting the second X-ray installation for his positive research in contrast to the negative research being done at Auschwitz, and he goes to his friend and influential assistant, to Heinrich Himmler, and asks him to arrange for that; that is to say, the defendant Rudolf Brandt.
This, Your Honors, completes the presentation of proof on the sterilization experiments at this time. I think there will be occasion at a later stage in the trial for the Court to either hear testimony from the stand or by way of affidavits dealing with sterilizations conducted on women in the Ravensbruck concentration camp by the Clauberg method, but at this time we would like to call to the stand the witness Heinrich Stoehr, who will testify, among other things, with respect to the phlegmone experiments at Dachau as well as the seawater experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, call the witness Heinrich Atoehr.
HEINRICH STOEHR, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q: Do you answer to the name of Heinrich Wilhelm Stoehr
A: Yes.
Q: You will hold up your right hand and be sworn on oath as a witness. Repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: Be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDING:
Q: Witness, your name is Heinrich Wilhelm Stoehr, is it not?
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: On the 12th of September, 1904 in Weisenburg, Bavaria.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: I am an employee at the General Insurance Company in Middle Franconia.
Q: At the present time are you a member of the legislative body of Bavaria?
A: Yes.
Q: What political party do you represent?
A: I belong to the Social Democratic Party of Germany.
Q: Witness, what is your present address?
A: Weisenburg, Bavaria, Steinlinsfurth, 26.
Q: Witness, when were you first arrested by the Nazis?
A: In the spring of 1934.
Q: Witness, kindly tell the High Tribunal why you were arrested by the Nazis in 1934?
A: Soon after the seizure of power by Hitler I put myself at the disposal of my party in order to carry out the illegal work, and I smuggled illegal newspapers into Germany from Czechoslovakia. After a short time I was arrested by the police.
Q: After being arrested for this illegal activity against the Nazi party, were you sentenced to prison?
A: I was sentenced to five and a half years in the penitentiary by the Penal Court in Munich.
Q: Did you fulfill that prison term of five and a half years?
A: Yes.
Q: Then were you re-arrested by the Nazis?
A: I was not released and immediately after leaving the penitentiary I was transferred into the concentration camp of Dachau.
Q: At the time that you were sent to the concentration camp Dachau, were you told the reason why you were sent there?
A: No.
Q: While in custody at Dachau, were you persecuted as a political prisoner?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first arrive at the concentration camp Dachau?
A: That must have been in April 1940.
Q: When were you released from the Dachau concentration camp?
A: I was liberated by the French and I was at that time situated in a side camp of the main camp of Dachau.
Q: Witness, you have told us that you arrived at Dachau in the spring of 1940. What duties were assigned to you in the concentration camp?
A: For a few weeks I worked at a garage and I was then transferred to the hospital as a male nurse.
Q: You say that you became a male nurse at the Dachau concentration camp hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: What time, what date did you become a male nurse?
A: That probably was in August or September, 1940.
Q: Did you retain this position as male nurse in the camp hospital until the liberation?
A: Until approximately six weeks before the liberation.
Q: Then, is I understand you correctly, you were a nurse in the camp hospital from the summer of 1940 until April of 1945?
A: Until February, 1945 in Dachau and I was then transferred to another camp outside Dachau. In order to escape the fate of my comrades who were there at that time and who were put into SS uniform and sent towards the front, in order to escape that fate I went into another camp.
Q: Did you at one time become the chief nurse in the surgical department of the camp hospital?
A: At the end of 1941 I became the chief station nurse at the surgical station.
Q: Witness, in the course of your duties, did you acquire any knowledge of medical experiments on inmates of Dachau camp?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know about the sea water experiments conducted in Dachau?
A: Yes, I learned about them.
Q: When were these experiments conducted?
A: If I remember correctly, it was in the summer of 1944.
Q: Were these seawater experiments carried out in the same block in which you were working?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you gain your knowledge of the sea-water experiments? That is, witness, through personal observation, from other personnel working on the experiments, or purely from hearsay?
A: I saw the patients who were living there. I saw them daily in the courtyard, and I received knowledge and I was told about them by nurses who were working there.
Q: Witness, will you kindly tell the Tribunal in your own words the details of the sea-water experiments as you know them?
A: I learned that these patients received nothing to eat for many days and I still remember very clearly that these patients -- there were approximate ly 50 who as far as I know came from the concentration camp Auschqitz especially for that purpose -- I remember that one day they attacked the nurse because they could no longer stand their hunger. The nurse who was thus attacked was transferred from the station, and another one was substituted.
Q: How many people or prisoners were used for these experiments?
A: I think there were approximately 50 people who were used.
Q: Were these prisoners Gypsies?
A: Yes.
Q: I understand you to say that these prisoners were not selected from the Dachau inmates but came from Auschwitz. Witness, is that correct?
A: I learned at that time that they were especially sent to Dachau from Auschwitz for that purpose.
Q: Who conducted these sea-water experiments, witness?
A: As far as I remember, they were officers and personnel of the Luftwaffe.
Q: What effect did these sea-water experiments have on the victims used?
A: I do not know that, since I did not work in that room. I think that it was mostly starvation from which these people were suffering.
Q: Did you at any time ever hear what happened to these people used in these experiments?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether or not any of these people were seriously injured as a result of these experiments.
A: I don't know that.
Q: Witness, did you ever hear of the sepsis or phlegmone experiments at Dachau concentration on camps?
A: Yes, these experiments were conducted at my station.
Q: How did you gain your knowledge of these phlegmone experiments? Were you an observer? Were you an assisting nurse, or by what way did you gain the knowledge you have of these phlegmone experiments?
A: I was the nurse at that station. One day -- I think it was in the late summer and fall of 1943 -- a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz came to me and also a Standartenfuehrer with the name of Laue or Lauer; I am not quite sure which -- and inspected the surgical department. He was shown a number patients; that is, we had to take their bandages off, and he examined their wounds. That is, he just looked at them very superficially. After that, the chief physician of the concentration camp Dachau, Dr. *olda, was called and he received the order to see to it that the patients received biochemical treatment for some time.
Q: Witness, will you kindly explain to the Tribunal in what manner these phlegmone experiments were conducted; that is, the details of the experiments? What did they do to the victim?
A: Mainly phlegmone was treated. It was very general in the camp. That is, phlegmone was the typical camp disease. The bio-chemical treatment was carried out in the following manner:
Three similar cases were observed. One of these cases was allopathic; the other one was bio-chemical, and the third one received only ordinary surgical treatment. That is, the third one received no drugs whatsoever, an where the wound was treated ordinarily with bandages and so on. These were the directives of the physicians who were thee. We saw that on many occasions the patient was cured much faster who had received no drugs or injections.
Experiments of that kind were conducted for many weeks, and if I may a layman make a judgment, I must say that the physicians, according to my observations, were not satisfied with these experiments.
In addition, I have to emphasize that not only wounds were treated according to these methods, but internal diseases, too. They tried to find whether bio-chemical treatment was suitable for treating the thirst for water which was so frequent in the camp. We saw that the bio-chemical drugs had no influence whatsoever as to the cause of this illness.
I emphasize that I am speaking as a layman and that all these are my observations.
During the fall, this Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuetz told them camp doctor by the name of Babo to infect a number of people with pus. We as nurses were told nothing about that, and we did not know what it concerned. These experiments were conducted on a group of men, and they extended over a period of approximately six to seven weeks.
Firstly, a group of Germans were infected with pus, and we nurses had no idea about the cause of that illness, and we gave the patients those drugs that were ordered by the physicians. I emphasize again that half of these people received allopathic and the other half bio-chemical treatment. As nurses, we could see the following things:
Every patient who received allopathical treatment were cured much quicker, that is, if they had any power of resistance with reference to their illness but the patient who had to take these pathological tablets, if I remember correctly, died with the exception of one person. There were approximately 20 persons who, at that time, were infected. The second group consisted of 40 clergymen belonging to all nations who were at that time in the group and fraternity brothers. These patients were selected in the block where all clergymen lived. They were selected by the Chief Physician Dr. Walda and were sent to the operational room of the concentration camp Dachau and were operated on by Dr. Schuetz and Dr. Kieselwetter. I think that was his name, and these experiments were conducted on them. A number of nurses and also the personnel of the operating room and I saw how they were injected in that manner. We were standing in the ante-room of the operating room.
Q: Witness, will you explain to the Tribunal what phlegmone means? Will you explain to the Tribunal what the word "phlegmone" means?
A: Phlegmone, as far as a layman can answer that question--phlegmone means an inflammation of the tissues and in the camp of Dachau these phlegmone were very numerous because the people there were mostly sent to the hospital too late. The phlegmones, as far as I know, that the typical camp phlegmone are a consequence of the germs. All such persons received phlegmones who suffered from lack of water.
Q: Witness, did you say that inmates were used for experiments in which they were injected with pus?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see these injections of pus being administered?
A: Yes.
Q: How were the inmates to be used for these experiments selected?
A: I didn't quite understand your question.
Q: In what manner did they select the inmates to be used for these experiments which dealt with the injection of pus? In other words, how did they select? What type of prisoner? What were their nationalities, etc.?
A: They were 40 persons coming from the so-called clergymen block.
Q: Were these inmates used for these experiments with injection of pus healthy inmates?
A: Completely healthy and strong men.
Q: Now, you have told us that they had one group, the first group, of ten Germans. How many died in that group?
A: I believe that the first group consisted of ten people of whom, as far as I remember, seven died.
Q: Now, you have told us of a second group of forty clergymen. How many died in that group?
A: I have seen a list of the survivors and according to that list 12 clergymen or rather fraternity brothers must have died.
Q: Were any prisoners of war used in these experiments? Would you please repeat your answer, witness?
A: I don't know whether they were prisoners of war or not. We could not differentiate in the camp of Dachau and see whether they were prisoners of war or not. At least I couldn't.
Q: Were the victims used in these experiments treated by medical doctor after they had been injected with pus?
A: Yes, they were treated by physicians. Yes, the operative work were made by physicians.
Q: Well, after they had been infected with pus what kind of treatment was given to them?
A: After the injection Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz gave the directive to the nurses instructing them that one half of them should receive allopathical and the other half biological treatment. I emphasize that the group which received allophatical treatment had special drugs, the so-called sulfanilamide trugs as that is called. We had the impression that the physicians wanted to prove that the biological drugs were not suitable to cure such a severe disease.
Q: Then you say, witness, that fifty percent were treated with sulfanilamide and the other fifty percent with biological medicants?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, after these injections with pus did abscesses develope on the inmate?
A: The biggest part of those who were treated biologically, that is, a of them developed abscesses and very deep abscesses. Part of the persons who received allopathical and prophylactical treatment with sulfanilamide h** no abscesses.
Q: Did the inmates who had endured this treatment suffer pain?
A: Yes.
Q: Severe pain?
A: As far as I know I think that the pains were very severe.
Q: Now, witness, who kept the records about the development of the fever and the symptoms of each of these inmates during the course of the experiments?
A: Every patient in the camp of Dachau had his fever chart. The temperature of every patient was measured twice daily. That applied to every patient; those who were in the operational station and others, too.
Q: Were you in a position to know whether or not reports were made out on the results of these experiments?
A: Case histories were written.
Q: Were those --------?
A: Every patient was observed carefully by the nurses and Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz, who visited the patient on frequent occasions and made a short case history and in addition every operation was noted down in that case history. That is, that the operating physician during the operation gave me the data necessary. He dictated the condition of the patient to me and also the manner of the operation. All these matters were noted down in the case history. In addition photos were taken of the abscesses.
Q: Were any of these reports, case histories, photos etc. sent to Berlin?
A: I have no knowledge of that. Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz took all of these fever charts as well as the case histories with him. Besides that, at one time there was a visit of a number of people who allegedly came from Berlin and who visited these patients.
As far as I remember I think it was the Reichsarzt Grawitz or whatever his name is.
Q: Now, witness, in regard to the treatment by biological methods, were there additional experiments conducted on victims who had previously been used on malaria experiments by Prof. Schilling?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell us about those experiments.
A: I have already emphasized that in addition to the phlegmone, internal diseases were treated. Among others 16 people were experimented upon or rather were observed in order to see whether biological treatment was suitable for the cure of malaria. Sixteen men were sent to my station who had been infected with malaria by Prof. Schilling and we observed whether biological treatment would have any success or not. We say that even with reference to the cause of the malaria illness these drugs had no influence whatsoever and these patients after six or seven attacks received the usual drugs, quinine, etc.
Q: Now, Witness, do you have any knowledge about the work of Professor Schilling at the malaria station?
A: I knew Professor Schilling, but I did not work at the malaria station. That is, at one time I had to do night duty there for two or three days and take temperatures. I know that Professor Schilling infected over 1,000 people with malaria. I also know that many of these people had to suffer unspeaktable You must not forget that these experiments were not carried out on people who were physically strong and healthy but they were mostly conducted on undernourished people who, for that very reason alone, had to suffer doubly. With my own eyes I saw a patient lie, who apparently was poisoned with neo-salvasan and was therefore weak under the terrible poison affects. He was practically a living wreck. I think the physician, or who ever it was that gave the inject had some misfortuna and there must have been something wrong with the kind of injection.
Q: Witness, was it commonly known in the Concentration Camp Dachau that Professor Schilling was carrying out such malaria experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you happen to know many victims died as a result of the malaria experiments by Professor Schilling?
A: I cannot give that.
Q: Would you say that some died?
A: I believe that there was some. There were quite a number of them.
Q: Now, witness, was it commonly known in the Dachau Concentration Camp that a certain Dr. Rascher was conducting experiments with ice cold water?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you gain your knowledge of these freezing experiments by Dr. Rascher?
A: I only know that from hearsay, that it was generally known. Everyone knew about these experiments.
Q: Did you know or did you learn that inmates had to stay outside in the cold for numbers of hours?
A: That was spoken of.
Q: In other words, Witness, your knowledge of the freezing experiments is entirely hearsay, it is not?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever hear whether or not people died as a result of these two types of freezing experiments?
A: I must assume that because I often saw that nurses or assistants were carrying dead persons from Rascher's station -- Block 5 -- into the morgue. I certain for that reason since my station was very close to the morgue. Is she like to point out that during the early days we were always told that whenever dead people were carried over the court yards from Rascher's station that all doors of other stations had to be closed so that no one saw what was happening
Q: Witness, was it commonly known in the Dachau Concentration Camp that inmates were being used for high altitude experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you yourself ever see any of the equipment used by Dr. Rascher and his colleagues in the high altitude experiments?
A: It took some time. For some time the so-called low pressure chamber was in Blocks 3 and 5. These were big chambers.
Q: You saw that chamber yourself, Witness?
A: Yes, I saw the chamber there myself.
Q: I know this may strain you a bit, Witness, but can you remember how long that chamber remained in Dachau?
A: It is very hard for me to answer that today. I am quite certain that this chamber was there for over four weeks. It may have been longer.
Q: You really don't know how long the chamber was there then, Witness?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether people died as a result of these high altitude experiments?
A: I know that people died, but I only know that from hearsay.
Q: Now, Witness, in the time that you were an inmate in the Dachau Concentration Camp did you ever hear whether Rascher worked with a drug for the coagulation of blood?
A: Dr. Rascher tried to produce that drug. That is, Dr. Rascher was in charge of the entire matter and introduced it. But, according to my knowledge, during the time he was conducting that work he was arrested.
Q: Do you remember the name of the drug that Dr. Rascher was using?
A: At the beginning this drug was called homthal. Later, when it was produced in a luquid form it was called stypthoral, if I am not mistaken.
Q: Did Dr. Rascher, in order to test this drug, deliberately inflict wounds on inmates of the camp?
A: I have not seen that but I heard about it. As far as I know, experiments were conducted in the crematorium, but I emphasize again that I only heard that
Q: What did you hear took place in the crematorium? What type of wounds did Dr. Rascher inflict upon the inmates of the camp in order to test this drug
A: I only heard that these people were inflicted with wounds. I cannot say what kind of wounds they were.
Q: Did you ever hear whether or not anyone died as a result of these experiments for blood coagulation?
A: If it is true that experiments were conducted in the crematorium, one has to assume that these persons died because nobody came alive from there. Otherwise, I don't know of anyone having died as a result of these experiment
A: In connection with these blood coagulation experiments did you ever hear the name of the drug called polygal?
Q: Yes.
A: To your knowledge did Dr. Rascher also work with the drug polygaliin these blood coagulation experiments?
Q: Yes.
A: Now, Witness, was there also an experimental station in Dachau for tubercular cases? That is, did they experiment on the tubercular inmates?
Q: I don't know whether we are concerned with experiments here, but I know that in approximately 1942, or it may have even been earlier, a so-called experimental station was built in Block 5. A certain Mr. von Weihern who, as far as I know was a homeopathic physician, was in charge of one department and there was also a certain Dr. Brachtel there.
Q: Do you know what went on in this experimental station? Can you tell the Tribunal about the work in this experimental station of Dr. Brachtel and Mr. von Weihern?
A: Well, as far as I heard it was the part of Dr. Brachtel to prove that his method was far more suitable than the method of Mr. von Weihern, that is, to cure tuberculosis diseases. At that time I learned from nurse that these methods of cure were not used correctly. I learned that every one of these gentlemen tried to prove that his method was the right one and I think that I can conclude from what I heard that these gentlemen were cheating one another. I also heard at that time that, mainly at the department of which Dr. Brachtel was in charge, the dead were so-called removed in order to prove that there were no dead. That is, the patients were removed shortly before death occurred and were exchange for other patients who had similar diseases and logically there were not dead at that station. I emphasize that I heard that from nurses. I myself only worked at the surgical department.
Q: Witness, was there an epidemic of jaundice spreading in the Concentration Camp Dachau, sometime in 1942 or 1943?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember whether or not any experiments were conducted in connect with this epidemic jaundice?
A: Yes.
Q: Who conducted these experiments?
A: Dr. Brachtel.
Q: What did he do in the course of these experiments? What means did he use to conduct the experiments? Will you tell the Tribunal what he did at that time
A: I can really say very little about this kind of experiment, but I do know that Dr. Brachtel was conducting the socalled "liver punctures" on a number of patients. I saw, with my own eyes, after having been present in the operating room for many days where my patients were operated on, how Dr. Brachtel was carrying out this liver puncture.
Q: Were these liver punctures made by Dr. Brachtel very painful for the patients?
A: I must assume so; yes. Here we are concerned with an operation which only lasts for a few seconds, but, judging from the demeanor of the patient, we could see that we weren't concerned with any dtrifles. This operation must have been painful.
Q: Now, witness, do you remember the station of Dr. Rascher in Dachau? Do you remember what this station was called? What was the name of the station at Dachau -- Rascher's experimental station?
A: Yes; we nurses knew that this station was part of the so-called Institute of "Ahnenerbe", or something like that.
Q: Do you remember who was the manager of this station at that time?
A: I often heard the name of Sievers mentioned in that connection.
Q: Do you know whether or not Sievers visited Dr. Rascher at this station at Dachau?
A: Certainly. Sievers was in Dachau. Whether he visited Rascher personally, I don't know, but Sievers' visit was announced very frequently.
Q: Did you, yourself, ever see Sievers on one of his frequent visits to Dachau?
A: I think; I don't know Sievers and I never worried about his visit, but there were numerous visits at Block 5. Among others, Himmler, Pohl and others, whatever their names may be. They very frequently came to the Station 5.
Q: Do you remember any other distinguished visitors that came to Dachau, other than Himmler, Pohl and Sievers?
A: On numerous occasions, Dr. Lolling, Grawitz, and I once heard the name of Conti. I don't know whether it was really he. These visits were merely announced and we nurses had to keep the station in order on these days.
Q: In the course of these visits by Dr. Grawitz, Lolling, Pohl, Sievers and Himmler, did they visit the experimental stations of Schilling, Rascher and so forth?
A: Yes; certainly. I emphasize the Schilling station; at least the part when the laboratories were always received high visitors.
Q: Did you, at any time, see Luftwaffe officers visiting Dachau Concentration Camp?
A: Yes.
Q: On what occasions did you happen to see them, other than in connection with the seawater experiments as you have told us previously?
A: That happened during the time when Dr. Rascher was conducting his experiments in the low pressure chamber.
Q: Now, witness, in all of these various experiments that you have just enumerated to the Tribunal, can you tell us whether or not the inmates used for these experiments were volunteers?
A: They couldn't have been volunteers.
Q: Did you ever hear of any prisoner being freed from the concentration camp after having been subjected to one of these medical experiments?
A: I heard that something like that was promised to them, but I think it was never realized.
Q: In what ways were these prisoners chosen for the experiments? Were they chosen out of a line, at random, or were they chosen by Capo's, or would you please explain to us in what manner they were chosen?
A: If I remember correctly, for instance, whenever Dr. Schilling needed some people, they were requested by the command post. The command post, the administration of the camp, then approved the number of people which were needed I don't know much about the further developments of things, since all these matters went over the to the administration and we really had very little to do with them, we nurses. I only know that, mainly with reference to the people selected by Professor Schilling, they were mostly examined by the physicians who were attached to Dr. Schilling as his assistants. I often witnessed the examinations, whenever I was in the x-ray room or in the surgical clinic, since I always had to carry a number of patients.
Q: Then, you would say, witness, that some of these prisoners were criminal prisoners; some were political prisoners; and so forth?
A: They were inmates of all types. In the early days, there were the socalled "A-social" elements; later there were people coming from all nations, people with all different views, including clergymen.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1.30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 13.30 hours.)