1946-12-17, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 13 December 1946.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel desire to cross-examine the witness on the stand?
DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for the defendant Sievers) CROSS-EXAMINATION.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q: You have said this morning that Sievers was in Dachau, and that you knew him personally; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, I am interested to know from what source you learned that Sievers was at the station of Professor Schilling, too?
A: I have not said that Sievers has been with Schilling; but, generally he visited the Dachau Concentration Camp essentially in Station "A" and "B" and they were the cleanest of all and these two stations were open to all of the visitors.
Q: And who took these visitors to these stations?
A: Sometimes the Kamp Kommandant who had protective custody at the Camp, sometimes, the doctor in charge.
Q: Can you say if Sievers was also taken around the Camp in this man***
A: I do not know that.
Q: Can you tell me whether or not Sievers had anything to do with the experiments?
A: That I do not know.
Q: Did you hear anything about Pectine or Pectin used in these experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know who had anything to do with these experiments?
A: I think the term "Pectine" used for these experiments is not correct You mean perhaps "Pextrin" was used?
Q: Pextrin is another type that was tested at Dachau?
A: Yes, in the last six months; a certain Dr. Bloetnerr had to produce such a Gelatine or pectine.
Q: Do you know where Dr. Bloettner worked?
A: He worked there; at first he was an assistant to Dr. Schilling, as far as I know; and after Dr. Rascher left, Dr. Bloettner came to work in Dr. Racher's section.
Q: Do you know whether Dr. Bloettner had anything to do with Pectine experiments?
A: He conducted the experiments with pectine at Dachau, he tried to use pectine.
DR. WEISGERBER: I have no more questions.
DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Prof. Wilhelm Beigelboeck): I have only one little question be put to you.
BY DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER:
Q: Did you ever hear the name Professor Eppinger in the camp?
A: No.
Q: Do you know a nurse named "Pillwein"?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether he was in Dachau at the time the fight between prisoners and nurses that you described, took place?
A: Yes.
Q: Before that?
A: Of course, he was a prisoner. I assume so. Pillwein was a nurse. He must have been in the camp before the experiments.
Q: No. I mean whether he was already a nurse in the hospital when this fight took place?
A: I do not know that. I believe Pillwein only returned before that time.
Q: Do you know a nurse whose first name was "Max"?
A: Yes; he was to take care of the fifty gypsies. He was the man that was beaten up by the gypsies.
DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination by defense counsel?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions of this witness, your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, we would like at this time to call the Court's witness, Walter NEFF, for examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon Walter Neff.
WALTER NEFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Witness, the Tribunal is now about to put certain questions to you before you are sworn as a witness in this case.
Q: Do you answer to the name of Walter Neff?
A: Yes.
Q: Where do you now live?
A: In Dachau, Kufsteinerstrasse, No. 2.
Q: Are you a German National?
A: Yes.
Q: Very well, hold up your right hand and repeat after me the oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may sit down.
Witness, before you were brought to the witness stand, the prosecuting authorities advised this Tribunal that you are now being held in custody by the American authorities, upon suspicion of having actively participated in certain allegedly criminal medical experiments held at Dachau Concentration Camp prior to liberation, for which you may possibly be prosecuted as a war criminal. In view of this statement made by the Prosecution to the Tribunal, the Tribunal now wishes to caution you that although you are now being called as a witness and will be compelled to answer questions under oath, that any statements made by you as a witness can and may be used as evidence against you in the event of such a prosecution; and that, consequently, you may refuse to answer such questions put to you as may, in your honest opinion, tend to incriminate you. Do you understand?
A: Yes.
JUDGE SEBRING: The Prosecution may proceed with the examination.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Your name is Walter Neff?
A: Yes.
Q: You were born on February 22, 1909 at Augsburg, Germany?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you a German citizen?
A: Yes.
Q: You are presently held as a civilian internee at Nurnberg?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, I am going to put a number of questions to you and I want you to tell the complete truth and to give us the full story as you know it. First, I would like to ask you a few questions about your background and how you happened to go to Dachau. Where were you living and what were you doing prior to 1938?
A: In 1934 I was in Brugg-an-der-Mur. There I learned that an attack was planned on an Austrian Gendarmerie Post. I reported this to the Austria Police but before the deed was committed I arrested the two persons responsible myself and turned them over to the police. The two people were condemned to death by the Austrian Courts and I appeared as witness before the Court. In 1937 I came to Germany and I worked in the Animal Breeding Society in Passau. On the 16th of February 1938 I was arrested; I was taken to the Gestapo at Munich, Mittelsbacher Palais, and after 4 weeks I was taken to the Dachau Concentration Camp.
Q: You were taken to Dachau as a political or a criminal prisoner?
A: I was taken to Dachau as a political prisoner.
Q: And was the reason given for taking you there because you had inform on the bomb plotters in 1934 in Austria?
A: Yes.
Q: Were these bomb plotters in Austria, Nazis?
A: These bomb plotters were two SS men.
Q: Witness, have you ever been convicted of a crime?
A: No.
Q: Now you went to Dachau in March 1938, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now will you explain briefly what work you did in Dachau--what duties were assigned to you?
A: When I was taken to the camp, according to the law I had one year protective custody. This was 3 months in the old bunker in chains, 6 months in the bunker and then 3 months in the penal company. After release from the penal company I was in various labor commandos, such as settlement barracks construction and in a plantation. In 1940 I became the night watchman in the hospital. In January 1941 I took sick and after my recovery I was made a nurse in the tuberculosis ward; but I must emphasize I knew nothing about the nursing of tuberculosis.
Q: Now in 1941 then you became a nurse, in the early part of 1941, a nurse in the tuberculosis ward in the hospital at Dachau, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long did you remain in that job?
A: Until 22 February 1942, when the experimental station, when Dr. Rascher's Experimental Station was opened.
Q: And that was February 22, 1942?
A: On 22 February 1942, the experiments on low-pressure chambers were begun.
Q: Now how did it happen, witness, that you were selected to assist Dr. Rascher?
A: I must object to the term "assistant" of Dr. Rascher. I was never Dr. Rascher' s assistant and I was never called that. The term was used only after the Americans had arrived and I was accused of co-responsibility. I was assigned to Dr. Rascher because the Rascher Station was in Block 5 in the tuberculosis section where I was already a nurse.
Q: Now is it not true, witness, that you were pardoned in September 194*
A: The Reichsfuehrer SS ordered that I was to be freed, with the obligation of working in the Entomological Station until the end of the war.
Nevertheless, immediately after my release, I had to work for Dr. Rascher. The Entomological Station was in the camp and, as far as I know, had nothing to do with experiments on human beings.
Q: What was your status after September 1942?
A: After my release my type of activity changed very little. The work as such, was mere or less the same.
Q: Were you, after September 1942, a civilian employee of the Ahnenerbe Institute?
A: Yes, I was a civilian employee of the Institute. But in November 1942 I was drafted into the Police Reserve and I had to appear in the camp in uniform.
Q: This was in November 1942 that you became a reserve in the SS Police
A: In the Police Reserve.
Q: Now you continued to stay in Dachau, however, after you became a member of the Police Reserve, is that not true?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you first leave Dachau?
A: I was sent to the Russian Front for anti-partisan activity in August or September of 1943 and I was called back in January 1944.
Q: Well now, isn't it true that you left Dachau in August, 1943, and to some training in a police camp?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was not until November or so of 1943 that you actually went to the Russian Front?
A: No, it could not have been before November 1943.
Q: And you came back to Dachau in January 1944, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, why is it that you were put in the Police Reserve?
A: I was not allowed to enter the camp in civilian clothes any longer. I was originally to be drafted into the SS but then I was put in the Police Reserve stationed at Dachau.
Q: All right now, after you came back to Dachau in January 1944, how long were you then in Dachau?
A: In April 1944 the experimental station, which was no longer under Dr. Rascher, was moved to Schlachters near Lindau and I went to Schlachters near Lindau with my comrades. I worked partly in Dachau and partly in Schla chters until October 1944. In October 1944, because of aiding the escape of the prisoner, Boris Krentz, Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Bloettner had me excluded from the hospital and I was no longer allowed to enter the camp.
After that I was sent to the Western Front, also in a police unit, and stayed there until the beginning of March 1945. In March 1945 I went back to Dachau Before the Americans arrived about 60 prisoners, --I liberated about 50 prisoners and kept them in the houses that were there for them. About the 28th of April they made an uprising in Dachau. The purpose of the uprising was to prevent the defense of the area of the camp and to prevent evacuation of the camp, and this purpose was fulfilled.
Q: You assisted then in the liberation of the concentration camp at Dachau
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you left Dachau in April 1944 to go to Schlachters, that was for the purpose of engaging in the production of this Blutstillungsmittel, coagulant drug. Now, Witness, let's go back and take up the matters, the things which occurred in Dachau in chronological order; as I recall, in the beginning of 1941 you became a nurse in the ward for tuberculosis patients, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Does Action 14 F 13 or Action 13 mean anything to you, Witness?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you explain to the Tribunal what that action is?
A: In the camp, especially in the hospital, so-called invalid actions were carried out. On the desk of the camp ward I once was able to read a secret letter which said "Subject-F 13." The contents were to the effect that the invalids of the camp were to be gathered together. That is how I remember the expression F 13. The invalid action was introduced in the camp by the announcement that all invalids had to report and they would get easier work and would be put in a different camp. Only when these invalids were taken away did we realize that it could not be a different living detail, because the people had to turn in their crutches and whatever else they had, and they were taken away by the hundreds. We could follow their route only as far as Linz, but the death reports which came in and their clothing which came back told u that the people had been liquidated. This invalid action was followed by a series of periodic other actions. For the hospital it was as follows:
The camp doctor went through the wards and indicated this one, this one, that one, who was to be listed for the invalid action. I remember that whole blocks, for example Block 7, was completely evacuated in one action without any distinction of the state of health of the individual patients. The tuberculosis ward was an exception in that it was an experimental ward, but this affected only those patients who were given the name "experimental patients All other patients with tuberculosis, --there were so many because they were sent to Dachau from all the camps---for the most part were included in this action. This action also included that the x-ray pictures were taken periodi cally of everyone in the camp, and those who had tuberculosis were sooner or later put on the invalid transports. The period between the listing and removal was about six weeks, and everyone who was put on the list was examine once more, not by a doctor this time, but as we know by a Gestapo official. The official usually asked three questions -- were you in the World war? Were you wounded? Why are you in the camp? Then the slip was signed and put in the files. We knew that this signature was a death sentence. For us nurse it was probably difficult for this reason, when there was invalid action and the camp doctor was selecting people, there was danger that the whole block, without consideration for individuals, would be put on the invalid transpor list. I owe it to Dr. Brachtels that I was frequently warned that an invalid action was coming up; in that way it was possible to help very many patient in one way or another by transferring them to the camp during the period of danger and returning them to the hospital later, or placing them under protection of the experimental station. But the terrible thing about it was that one could help part of these people, but had to leave the others to their fate. And then there was another action, that was the so-called "tooth action. All prisoners had to go to the hospital for examination and treatment of their teeth. In reality it was determined whether the prisoner had gold in his mouth or not. If he had gold in his mouth he was registered carefully and after he died he had to pay the gold from his mouth for the last tribute for the fight against National Socialism.
Q: Witness, can you tell us approximately how many people were included a these invalid transports during the period you were in the hospital ward, and I take that to be from 1941, the beginning of 1941 until February 1942?
A: From the hospital I know that in the course of the year of 1941, and the beginning of 1942 a little over 2,400 were sent on invalid transports. I know that so accurately because I always noted down the date and the figures, and the list is in the hands of the Court in Dachau, and also in the Information Center, Dachau, by Klaisheimerstr. 90.
Q: Were people included in these invalid transports other than from the hospital wards from which these 2,000 you have mentioned came?
A: These no doubt include the ones who were released from the hospital to the camp, but at the time of the listing were sick in the hospital. They were also sent on the invalid transport even after they had recovered.
Q: Now, does this figure of 2,000 cover simply the period in 1941 when you kept the files or does it cover the whole period from the beginning of 1941 until February 1942?
A: If I understood the question correctly, whether the invalid action was finished in 1942 or whether there were only the patients who were regist
Q: No, witness, I am trying to find out clearly what this 2,000 figure covers; now, as I understand it, for some five months in 1941 you kept certain files on the hospital, did you not?
A: Yes, I wrote them down four or five months of course, not officially
Q: Now, you can say because of having kept these figures that a certain number of people were sent on these invalid transports?
A: By name?
Q: No, the number; and you have mentioned the number 2,000, now is that 2,000 the number of people who were sent for the period of 4 or 5 months when you have kept the files or does the 2,000 figure cover the whole of 1941?
A: No, not the whole year 1941. As far as I recall I observed and registered this list carefully 5 or 6 months. Later I didn't have the time to do this and I did not continue to write them down.
Q: And can you give us the estimate of what the total figure was for the year 1941?
A: The total figure for the year 1941, the hospital including the camp was a little over 5,000.
Q: Now, do you know whether or not these invalid transports continued after you left the hospital in February 1942?
A: In 1942 I am sure there were invalid transports, but how long they went on I do not know exactly.
Q: Now, witness, were non-German Nationals included in these invalid transports?
A: Among the invalids there was a large percentage of non-Germans. At that time the camp had a much higher percentage of primarily people from the East.
Q: That is you say Russians and Poles?
A: Russians, Poles, Czechs, Yugo Slavs, primarily.
Q: Did you, while you were a male nurse in the tuberculosis ward, have to yourself select some of these tuberculosis patients to be included on some of these transports?
A: The order to select these people was never given to me. It was like this, Dr. Brachtels told me "there is an invalid action, from your tuberculosis ward you will have to report at least 50 patients. If you do not do that the camp doctor will select them. You can imagine how many will be left then". I have always said it was terribly difficult for such nurses to make a decision, to decide whether the selection of 50 was the lesser of two evils, or whether we should leave it to the chief doctor to select the invalids. After the chief surgeon, Dr. Wolter, in one invalid action had put the whole block with the exception of the experimental patients, on the invalid list in the second invalid action I selected and reported the patient who were confined to bed and who could not be transferred to some other block or somewhere else.
Q: Now, you state that you are sure that these people were transported to a place near Linz and then exterminated?
A: The prisoners were of course interested in knowing where there comrades were being sent. We could follow the route only as far as Linz, the return of the clothes and the death announcements of the German prisoners. The announcement we read in the camp papers proved to us and made it known to us. The death announcements always said they had died in Dachau.
Q: Witness, were you ever told what the purpose of these invalid transports was?
A: We read in the paper at the end of 1940 or beginning of 1941 an article by Prof. Buttersack. In this article of Prof. Buttersack of Goppingen it stated that it was necessary to have sick persons, who were useless eaters, eliminated as nature does. As an example, he gave the rat and he continued by saying that it was designated against anti-social people, against people who were enemies of the Third Reich and those who were political criminals and they were to be treated in the same way. We realized then what was being done and what was planned. We also knew that the Bishop of Galen had taken up a stand against this action. That was the only way that I can explain it.
Q: And all of this -- these invalid transports -- were what you knew as Action F-13?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know of any one from Berlin, any important figures, that were interested in this Action F-13? For example was Conti supporting this action, according to your knowledge?
A: I don't know if Conti had anything to do with this action.
Q: Did Conti ever visit Dachau?
A: Yes, Conti was in the Concentration Camp Dachau several times. He visited the tuberculosis ward twice and as far as I know he was in the concentration camp once or twice before.
Q: Now, in the tuberculosis ward did they, in fact, conduct certain experiments on the better methods of treating tubercular patients? For example by Biochemical means?
A: The experimental station for tuberculosis was organized as follows: There was a Homeopathic station and a Medical section. Each section had the same number of patient with about the same case history and they were proving which of the two types of treatment led to quicker cure. The Homeo pathic section was directed by Hanno von Wyhern and the medical section from 1 April 1 1941 by Dr. Brachtel. I am convinced from the facts that the persons received additional rations, milk, etc., in the experimental station and this did the tubercular patients some good.
Q: Let us move on now to February of 1942. When did the high altitude experiments begin in Dachau?
A: The first high altitude experiments were on 22 February 1942. The so-called low pressure cars had been brought in earlier and dismounted. The exact time when the cars came I don't know.
Q: Why do you remember the date when the first experiment were made in the low pressure chambers so well?
A: The 22nd of February is my birthday and the tuberculosis patients made a celebration for me. On that date the experiments started and that is why I remember the date.
Q: Do you remember that the low pressure chamber arrived in Dachau some days before 22 February 1942?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, I am going to have a book brought up to you and if the Tribunal please, this is a book entitled, "Grundriss der Luftfahrtmedizin" by S. Ruf and S. Stutthof, edition of 1944. I am asking the witness to look at a picture on page 29 and tell the Tribunal if the low pressure chamber, which was in Dachau, was similar to the one shown in this picture.
(THE WITNESS IS SHOWN THE BOOK)
A: Yes.
Q: May it please the Tribunal, I do not care to offer the book in evidence, however, I believe you might like to look at the picture and get some idea of the chamber, so that I am asking that it be passed up.
(THE BOOK IS SHOWN TO THE TRIBUNAL)
Q: Witness, was this a moveable low pressure chamber?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, who brought the chamber down to Dachau? Do you know?
A: It was brought into the camp by a coal truck and Dr. Romberg came with it and gave the orders for the assembling and the current.
Q: Witness, do you know Romberg?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you see him in the defendant's box?
A: Yes
Q: Will you tell the court where he is sitting in the defendant's box
A: The fourth man in the second row.
Q: The fourth man from the far end of the box from you, witness?
A: Yes.
Q: I will ask the record to show that the Defendant Romberg was properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record may so show.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Do you know a man by the name of Siegfried Ruff, witness?
A: Siegfried Ruff was present on the first day of the experiments on February 22nd. I believe that I can recognize Ruff.
Q: How many times have you seen Ruff?
A: I can only recall having seen Ruff once, with certainty.
Q: Do you see a man whom you recognize to be Ruff in the defendants' dock
A: I am not quite certain whether it is the second man in the second row.
Q: Of all the people sitting in the defendants' dock, you find that the second man from the far end from you appears to you to be Ruff?
A: Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Ruff has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Witness, do you know a man by the name of Georg August Weltz?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you see him in the Defendants' dock?
A: Yes
Q: Where is he sitting?
A: He is the sixth man in the second row.
MR. Mc HANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Weltz has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. Mc HANEY:
Q: Can you see the full box from where you are sitting, witness?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know a man by the name of Wolfram Sievers?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you see him in the defendants' dock?
A: Yes.
Q: Where is he sitting?
A: The first man in the first row nearest to me.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the defendant Sievers has been properly identified by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Now, witness, I will ask that you carefully look at all of the defen dants in the dock and indicate which of the people there you have seen before
A: I recognize only one man that I saw in the camp.
Q: What man is that, witness?
A: The first man in the first row, the fartherest one from me.
Q: And can you recall when you saw this man in Dachau?
A: No. Possibly in 1941 or '42, but I don't know on what occasion.
Q: How do you remember that you have seen this man? Do you know his name
A: No.
Q: You just recall his face?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember whether on the occasion that you saw him that he was inspecting the experimental stations in Dachau?
A: It must have been on the occasion of a visit, but whether it was an inspection of the experimental station, I don't know.
Q: Witness, I will ask you if Sievers was wearing a beard when you knew him in Dachau?
A: No.
Q: Does the name Kurt Blome mean anything to you, witness?
A: From Dr. Rascher I frequently heard the name Blome in connection with the blood coagulant drug and in connection with Robert Veichs, I once read a document which was a sort of judgment of racial characteristics of Robert Veichs which had been written and signed by Blome.
Q: Why was Blome interested in Robert Veichs?
A: Whether Blome was interested or whether Rascher had asked Blome to an interest in Veichs, I don't know. I assume, however, that Rascher went Blome with Veichs because of the blood coagulating drug or because of racial matters which played a big role in the Veichs affair since Veichs had been brought to the camp as a jew and under difficult circumstances.
Q: Well, did you understand then that Blome was perhaps interested in racial questions in Germany?
A: I heard from Rascher that Blome was working on a section for racial questions.
Q: How many times did you see Blome, if at all?
A: I saw Blome once in Munich on the occasion of a visit of Robert Veichs to Blome, that is, Robert Veichs had to return a radio which Dr. Rascher had rapaired to Blome. On this occasion I saw Dr. Blome.
Q: I will ask you to again look at the defendants' dock and carefully search the face of each man there and see if you can recall having seen and of these men on the occasion of your contact with Blome?
A: No.
Q: Now, let's go back to the high altitude experiments. Will you tell the Tribunal who worked on these experiments?
A: The experiments were conducted by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Rascher and Dr. Roberg. Ten prisoners were selected and were taken to the station as perman experimental subjects; and they were told that nothing would happen to them In the beginning, the first three weeks, the experiments went off without incident. One day, however, Rascher told me the next day he was going to make a serious experiment and that he would need sixteen Russians who had been condemned to death, and he received these Russians. Then I told Rascher that I would not help, and I actually got Rascher to send me away to the tubercular ward. On that day I know for certain that Rascher's SS-M Endres or other SS-Men conducted these experiments. Dr. Romberg was not th that day. The SS-Man-Endres took the Russian prisoners of war to Rascher a in the evening the parties were taken out. On the next day when I returned to the station, Endres was already there and he said that two more, two Jews would be killed. I am quoting what be said. I left the station again, but I watched to see who would be taken for the experiments. I saw the first one getting into the cat. I could only see his profile. It seemed familiar to me I knew that man worked in the hospital as a tailor. I tried to find out if j was really that man. I went to the place where he worked, and I was told the Endres had just taken the man away.
The first person that I informed was Dr. Romberg whom I met in the corridor. I told Romberg that this was not a person who had been condemned to death, that this was a clear case of mu** on the responsibility of Endres. Romberg went with me to see Rascher to cle** the matter up, but it was discovered that Endres had put this man in the experimental car because he had refused to make a civilian suit for the SS man. Rascher sent the man back; Endres went with him, and remarked: "Well, then you will get an injection today." I must' say that Rascher enterfered ce more and put the man in safety into the bunker. In the meantime, Endres had brought a second man up, a Czech, whom I knew very well. Again it was Romberg together with me who talked to Rascher to stop this experiment or inwuire why a man like Enderes was simply taking people who had never been condemned to death. Rascher went to the camp commandant, Pirkowsky, who personally came to the station and Endres was transferred to Lublin immediately.
An now I come to the subject: it was actually the day on which my com** and I reached the decision that under all circumstances, no matter what happ ned, I wouldn't remain at this -
Q: Now, witness, let me interrupt you just a minute. We will come back and you can tell the full story then.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a fifteen-minute recess.
(A recess was taken.)