1947-01-07, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is now in session.

Q: Witness, I had just asked you before the intermission whether or not you know anything about experiments conducted at Buchenwald with the phosphorus content of incendiary bombs.

A: I did not hear the German translation. Will you please repeat the question?

Q: Is it coming through now?

A: As far as I can recall, I was told by Dr. Ding in the Spring of 1944 that he had been given orders by Professor Dr. Mrugowsky in collaboration with the firm Madaus & Co. at Dresden-Ratebeul to carry out experiments on human beings with regards to the effect of a drug against the contents of phosphorus kautchuk incendiary bombs. I had the impression as if the idea for this experiment had come from Dr. Ding and had been given to Dr. Mrugowsky by him, and then he had obtained the approval to carry out this experiment. On the part of the firm Madams, negotiations were led by a certain Dr. Koch. He had a drug which he called R-17 and which was used by the German population after attacks in which incendiary bombs were dropped.

By way of Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Koch and the higher Police leader of the Dresden sector, the contents of phosphor incendiary bombs were sent to Buchenwald, and, four experimental persons from Block 46 who had survived other experiments had this phosphorus liquid applied to their forearms, and the whole mass was then inflamed and then was treated in the various manners. In the case of one experimental subject water was used in order to wipe off the liquid, and in other cases a damp rag was applied and in the last case R-17 was applied. Several experiments were carried out on these four subjects.

In one instance the drug R-17 was applied immediately after the mass had been inflamed, and in another instance after approximately five minutes and in another case yet after thirty minutes. After the mass had burned the arm, serious burns developed which were still observed for two weeks afterwards. The experiment was conducted by the Special Section 5 at Leipzig, and photographs were taken of the wounds. And previously experiments on animals had been carried out in Block 40 on rabbits.

These experiments were conducted in the same manner, and the various results were also photographed, and the photographs were compared with each other, and they were put into an album that was exactly described, and the results were sent to Berlin -- two copies. One was sent to Professor Mrugowsky, and the other was sent to Oberfuehrer Poppendick, but I am not quite sure about that. I believe that Oberfuehrer Poppendick must surely have received a report on this matter because Dr. Ding intended to write an article about this in a German medical journal.

Q: Now, you have mentioned an album report. Did you see this report?

A: I have personally made the report after having it dictated to me by Dr. Ding.

Q: I will ask you if the document which I will now have handed to you, and which is Document NO-579, is the report on these incendiary bomb experiments which you have described.

MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the original of this document be passed up to the Tribunal.

Q: I didn't hear any answer to the question.

A: Yes. It is a carbon copy of the report with the original photographs.

MR. McHANEY: I offer Document No-579 as Prosecution Exhibit 288, and I will ask that the original be passed up to the Tribunal for inspection. I will ask that the Tribunal turn particularly to Page 15 and following of the Exhibit itself. Your honor, the original. I think you would find the pictures more easy to discern in the original document. Page 15 and following are pictures of burns on the arms of humans beings.

Q: Witness, did you see any of the experimental subjects who were burned with this phosphorus?

A: I personally have seen all the experimental subjects because this experiment was carried out in the private room of Dr. Ding in Block 50 and in the library of the Hygienic Institute in Block 50. The reason for this was that the execution in Block 46 amongst the experimental subjects that were located there and who were destined for other purposes would have caused far too much excitement.

Q: Were these burns very severe?

A: as far as I can recall they were very severe in three out of the four cases.

Q: Did the experimental subjects suffer any pain?

A: From Capo Arthur Dietsch it had been suggested that the persons were to be given an anesthetic as soon as they came into Block 50 so such violent scenes could be avoided, and in Block 50 which was completely different from Block 46 it was to be avoided that the persons were handcuffed, as was the common practice in Block 46. The persons were thus, at least, in the first experiment, but I have only seen the persons. I have not personally witnessed the experiments, and I have seen them before as veil as afterwards. It was, at least, during the first experiment the persons were given an anesthetic and after about half an hour they regained consciousness and complained about very severe pains. You could see that they were really suffering very badly. I must confess that I personally after having looked at the photographs, that I personally almost became sick.

Q: Do you knew whether the injuries which they received are permanent?

A: In the case of some of the wounds, it is completely impossible that they will ever become completely healed; very deep scars must have remained because the wounds were big and were as deep as from two or two and a half centimeters.

Q: Do you know whether any of the experimental subjects died?

A: Four persons were returned to Black 46, and I do not knew anything about their future fate which awaited them there. I especially do not know if they were used for further experiment

Q: Do you know the nationality of the experimental persons used?

A: No; however, all four were the green triangle which was to signify hardened criminals and that they were Germans.

Q: And, you state that the purpose of these experiments was to test certain chemical preparations of the Madaus Company in treating the burns?

A: Yes.

Q: Let us move on to the old blood plasma experiments which you mentioned earlier this morning in connection with the Military Medical Academy. What do you know about those experiments?

A: The Military Academy in Berlin? I am not sure -- was the name the Military Medical Academy? I do not know the name exactly, any more at this time. In the year 1944, they made the request by way of Mrugowsky that all blood plasma concerned which was being kept at Berlin should be tested on experimental subject? that is, blood transfusions were to take place, and it was to be determined if this blood plasma could probably be administered not without having any ill effects on the subjects. In particular if there would be any effect of shock in the case of the experiment tal subjects. Persons were selected by Arthur Dietsch, but I cannot say as to what category of prisoners they belonged to.

However, I believe that this was left to his personal decision. And the experiments were carried on for a rather long period of time. If I remember correctly until the first month of the year 1945. And, the report about the feasibility of this blood plasma was regularly sent to Berlin to Dr. Mrugowsky with a carbon copy for the Academy.

Q: Can you say whether any of the persons who were subjected to this old blood plasma transfusions suffered any ill effects?

A: I can recall from the reports which I have read that several cases -- several complaints by Arthur Dietsch were made, and a certain series of numbers of this old blood plasma were afterwards discontinued. The experimental subjects were infected in these cases, and apparently had been used in other experiments in Block 46. So, we in Block 50, discussed the matter that from a scientific point of view and from a practical point of view, the experiments did not have any specific value because persons who showed some effect or who died from these experiments, it could not be clearly certain as to what specific effect the results had been caused.

Q: You state then, witness, that some of the experimental subjects who were subjected both to the typhus experiments and to the old blood plasma experiments eventually died?

A: I believe I can recall -- I am quite certain that same of them died. Only, the specific causes could not be clearly determined because no person died as an immediate result of those transfusions.

Q: In other words, you could not tell whether the cause of death was due to the type of the previous experiment or the old blood plasma experiment; is that right?

A: That is correct.

Q: Do you know approximately how many inmates were subjected to this old bleed plasma test?

A: In any single experiment a group of from 12 to 20 persons were used, and it always varied. As far as I can recall at least five such series were selected.

Q: How, do you recall any experiments with blood taken from typhus convalescence to produce a serum to be used as an anti-toxin?

A: In Block 50 there was a guest laboratory, that is to say, a laboratory which had been placed at the disposal of Sturnbannfuehrer Doctor Ellenbeck. It was not under Doctor Schuler. This Sturmbannfuehrer Doctor Ellenback was directly subordinated to Doctor Mrugrowsky. As I found out from Doctor Ding, he had orders from Mrugrowsky to got typhus serum from the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in order to supply, the Berlin SS hospital and other SS hospitals. Approximately toward the end of the summer of 1944 until the spring of 1945, the typhus convalescence in Block 46 -- blood was taken from them regularly, and I was usually between 250 and 300 centimeters of blood which was changed in to this serum, and which was taken from these patients This was kept in Block 46 and then it was sent to Block 50, and whenever a courier arrived from Berlin it was dispatched from Block 50.

Q: Do you know whether any of these convalescence patients died as a result of taking too much blood for the purpose of making it into a serum?

A: Normally the convalescence serum -- it was made a practice to take it from convalescence patients who were convalescing from typhus. However, in this case, the particular circumstance which were in the concentration camp, and in particular Block 46, must also be considered. Toward the end of 1944 we were almost completely out of drugs, and the typhus convalescence patients in Block 46, around this time, were also really suffering from other diseases, these who had been sent to Buchenwald Concentration Camp in transports.

It became increasingly harder to find any drugs. As a result of this, taking the blood from the convalescence patients, under the circumstances, meant an extraordinary burden on the patients. At this time, a large number of the patients died. However, the same thing applies, that I have already said in regard to the Phosporous-Kantchuk experiments. The specific cause of this could not very easily be ascertained, and it was completely impossible to ascertain it.

Q: The translation came through that in this case where there were causes of death such as in the case of the Phosphorus-Kantchuk experiments you couldn't determine the cause of death. I take it you mean not the Phosphorus-Kantchuk experiments but rather the whole blood plasma experiments?

A: Yes, the experiments which I made. I am referring to the experiments about the transfer of plasma. I have made a mistake.

Q: Now, witness, were there other occasions when blood was taken from inmates of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp for the purpose of making blood plasma?

A: There were quite a large number of cases. In my experience in particular Sturmbannfuehrer Ellenback systematically selected the invalids and old prisoners who were in the so-called small camp under horrible conditions; and he used them to get blood for the SS Hospital and other purposes. In the so-called small camp at Buchenwald, there were seventeen barracks; and they were limited to very narrow space. Around this period of time when Dr. Ellenbeck started taking blood, there were approximately ten thousand people. They were crowded in a very narrow space in barracks. There were as many as fifteen hundred people in the narrow barracks which was hardly enough for four hundred fifty. The people were lying in very small bunks; and they were perche together there. In this small camp where was a special barracks for the invalids which was filled primarily by Frenchmen. Around this time the little camp was almost exclusively occupied by Frenchmen.

The people were told that they would be given special food if they declared themselves ready to offer their blood. In the little camp rigorous starvation was prevailing. Block 50 was directly adjoining to the little camp. We were able to control all other conditions there in all possible respects. A large number of Frenchmen, invalids and old people reported and gave their blood. In this case it was a matter f 150 to 200 cubic centimeters. However, very frequently as much as 400 cubic centimeters were taken away from them.

They were given a piece of sausage. Then it was a piece of liverwurst, which could hardly be described as liverwurst; or they were given Blutwurst, another kind of sausage, which was of a much better quality.

They were also given a lot of bread. I believe they were given throe hundred grams.

This was carried on until April, 1945; and the prisoners were in such condition that there were always a sufficient number of people who volunteered to have their blood taken, in spite of the monstrous conditions in the little camp and in their exhausted condition, just in order to be able to get this piece of bread and this little piece of sausage. The blood was sent by courier from the SS hospital at Berlin; and it was taken there by them.

Q: You would say then that Dr. Ellenoek and his associates were engaged in selling bread and sausage for blood?

A: Well, that is not quite a correct description. They demanded blood; and they told the people to give their blood. So-called grades in the medical service in the hospital at Berlin then went into the little camp and, as they expressed it, they drew the blood from the prisoners. Then Dr. Ellenbeck gave the prisoners who ware working in this laboratory the information that they were to see that the people would be reimbursed in food for their sacrifice. Upon the demand of the prisoners who were working with then, he issued an order to the camp hospital from where the bread and the sausage were then furnished. Three prisoners in his guest laboratory in Block 50 received their rations, from documents which I had, the rations which had been sent for blood donors by the SS; and they submitted these ration allowances to Dr. Ellenbeck, asking him to see that these invalids and old people in the little comp would be given this fixed allowance.

Dr. Ellenbeck did not have the authority to issue orders in the concentration camp Buchenwald. He was a guest there. In Block 50 this order was again forgotten; and the people were given what had became common practice in the concentration camp, which in many instances depended on the temperament of the men who had the authority there.

Q: Do you know under whose orders Dr. Ellenbeck took this blood?

A: It was under the orders of his chief, Mrugowsky.

Q: Can you say whether any of these blood donors in the little camp at Buchenwald did following the taking of the blood from them?

A: The question shews that it is very difficult to gain a real concept of the little camp at Buchenwald. The people died there in masses. During the night the corpses were lying in the blocks naked because they were thrown out of the bunks by the other prisoners so that they would have a little more space. Even the smallest pieces of clothing were torn away from them by those who wanted to survive. It is impossible to determine if directly and immediately as a result of the taking of blood anybody died because many people fell down and died while walking around the little camp.

But it is beyond any doubt to anyone who has known the conditions there that the taking of blood, even if it gave a small measure of strength to these people as far as food was concerned, was a considerable contributing factor in the death of many of these people.

Q: Now, Witness, I think you mentioned at an earlier point in the examination here that a report was sent to Poppendick in connection with certain experiments on the homosexuals by Dr. Varnet in Buchenwald. Will you tell the Tribunal what you know about these experiments?

A: In the late spring or early summer of 1944 Dr. Ding told me that he had been ordered to assist a Danish Sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Varnet, in the execution of such experiments.

Afterwards I saw the exchange of letters; and the order was issued directly by Poppendick. I had seen the whole subsequent correspondence. As far as it was between Dr. Ding and Poppendick, I had either written or read the letters whenever they arrived. This Danish Sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Varnet, came to Block 50 and requested Dr. Ding to furnish him prisoners for his purposes. At this period of time Dr. Ding wanted to have as little as possible to do with things that wore outside his field of competence; and therefore he referred him to the camp physician, Dr. Schidlauski. Then indeed Dr. Varnet selected approximately fifteen experimental subjects through the camp hospital for prisoners.

For what reasons the reports then still were submitted over Dr. Ding to Poppendick I cannot say anymore at this time.

From time to time Varnet came to Buchenwald; and the rest of the time as far as I know he worked with the experimental Section 5 at Leipzig where Poppendick had authority. There the experiments themselves had the aim through the transplantation of glands to cause a change in homosexuals and to cause a complete change in these people. The SS physicians in the camp constantly made the biggest jokes about this sort of operation. Two persons died in the course on the operations which were carried out.

Q: Now witness you stated that you saw sons of the correspondence between Poppendick and Schuler in connection with these hormone experiments.

A: I believe that I can recall that I saw the first letter from Poppendick which contains the order to Schuler to assist Dr. Varnet and that I have also seen the further correspondence. If I aw remembering correctly the first letter stated that contact had been established with Mrugowsky and that Dr. Ding-Schuler could assist Dr. Varnet. It is quite possible that Dr. Ding, in accordance with instructions by Poppendick, on his part he turned to Mrugowsky for this approval.

Q: Witness, I will ask you if you have ever seen before the letter which I am now having handed to you and this is document No. 1300.

A: I have seen this letter.

Q: Did you see it in the concentration camp at Buchenwald?

A: I have seen this letter only in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in Block 50, and I have not seen it since that time.

MR. McHANEY: We offer this document as Prosecution Exhibit No.259.

BY MR. McHANEY:

Q: I will ask you, witness, if you gave this letter to the Office of Chief of Counsel?

A: No, I did not.

MR. McHANEY: If Your Honor, please, we offer this document for admission, not on the identification of this witness, but as a document captured by the Allied Forces and received by this office in the regular course of business. I put the question to the witness to corroborate the testimony which he had previously given with respect to correspondence with he had seen from Poppendick to Ding. This letter was not obtained from the witness and at this time I would like to read into the record Document No. 1300, which is Prosecution Exhibit 289:

This letter is dated 15 July, 1944, from the defendant Poppendick to Dr. Ding. It is on the letterhead of the Reich Physician SS and Police.

Subject: Hormone Research SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Varnet:

To SS Sturnbannfuehrer Dr. Ding, Concentration Camp Weimar Buchenwald:

Dear Comrado Ding:

By request of the Reichsfuehrer SS the Danish doctor SS-Stubef. Dr. Varnet has been given opportunity to continue his hormone research with SS, particularly the development of the artificial gland. The Reichsfuehrer SS anticipates certain results from the treatment of homosexuals with Varnet's artificial gland. The technical preparations have came to such a point that experiments on human beings can be started within a reasonable space of time.

As SS-Standartenfuhrer Dr. Lolling informed me the CC WeimarBuchenwald has been directed to make available 5 prisoners for SS Sturmbannfuehrer Varnet's experiments. Those prisoners will be made available to SS Stubaf. Varnet by the physician at any time.

SS Stubaf. Varnet intends to go to Buchenwald shortly in order to make certain necessary preliminary tests on these prisoners. In case there will be special laboratory tests, you are requested to assist Varnet within the scope of your possibilities.

Particulars on Varnet's research were sent today to the camp physician of the Weimar-Buchenwald for his information.

With cordial regards and Heil Hitler! By orders yours /s/ Poppendick

BY MR. McHANEY:

Q: Now, witness, you have heard this document read and you will recall that it stated that five prisoners were to made available. I think your testimony heretofore has mentioned a somewhat higher figure. In view of this letter do you still think they used more than five persons for the homosexual experiments?

A: Without any doubt there must have been at least fourteen to fifteen people in the course of the time from the summer of 1944 until approximately February, 1945. Then Dr. Varnet did not appear any more at Buchenwald.

Q: And you state that two of these persons operated on died, is that correct?

A: Two persons died.

Q: Was there a report made on the result of these experiments?

A: Between Dr. Ding and Oberfuehrer Poppendick there was as exchange of letters in which Ding outlined his report on the operations of Varnet at Buchenwald, about all of his activities until, and reports wore road quite considerably from the reports which were submitted about experiments in Block 46 regularly to the Chief Hygienist, Dr. Mrugowsky. The previously mentioned reports were provided with all necessary documents and the letters to Poppendick were only generally mentioned and it was left to Varnet himself to submit very much more detailed reports.

Q: And I think you have stated earlier that Poppendick also received a report on the phosphorous burn experiments, is that right?

A: I believe I am quite certain that I can recall it.

Q: Now, Mr. Kogan, can you amplify on the position of Mrugowsky with respect to the experiments carried on in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, and I mean to include experiments other than those of typhus?

A: The relationship between Dr. Ding and Mrugowsky was not the same at all times. Dr. Ding had participated in the French campaign in 1940, and at that time he was the personal adjutant of the SS Divisional Medical Office, Genzken. Genzken had a special weakness form Ding and he was protecting him. Until the spring of 1943 Genzken worked in the Medical Office of the Waffen SS and he was the man in charge there, and Mrugowsky who had the of Sturmbannfuehrer at the time and Ding who was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer, both of whom were subordinated to him. This I could gather from the exchange of letters between Genzken and Ding and from statements by Dr. Ding. There was a certain rivalry between Genzken and Mrugowsky. Mrugowsky kept on advancing in grade and Genzken was pushed aside more and more. The Department, Roman Numeral 16, in Medical Main Office of the Waffen SS was given more and more independence. Finally, Mrugowsky become independent of Genzken and he became the direct man in charge of Dr. Ding.

This happened approximately between April and June, 1942. Dr. Ding still tried for a long time to keep Genzken as his Chief, that is as Chief of The Department. He tried to figure certain assignments and at least in some respects keep him independent from Mrugowsky. It was called the Chief in Charge of a Section of the Department for special assignments and approximately around that time, in the summer of 1943, I had several times the impression that Dr. Ding did not know himself any more to whom he was now exactly subordinate in all details.

A: However; in the late summer of 1943, the situation had become completely clarified. Mrugowsky became the sole chief of Dr. Ding and every experiment which was carried out in Block 46, whatever concerned it, orders were given for it by Dr. Mrugowsky, that is to say, they were ordered by him, or they were suggested by firms or by Ding. They were then officially approved by Dr. Mrugowsky. Dr Ding could not start any series of experiments in Block 46 without first obtaining the approval or the order of Dr. Mrugowsky.

I believe in the beginning of 1944 he also became the Chief Hygienist of the SS Genzkin still wrote private letters to Dr. Ding. This exchange of letters was very cordial. Genzken complained about the conditions with regard to the authority in the main medical office in Berlin. And if I recall correctly, and I am not quite sure in this matter, Genzken, at one time, accepted a private invitation of Dr. Ding-Schuler to come to Buchenwald and to inspect his shop; as Dr. Ding expressed himself. He was referring to Block 46 and 50.

If this visit were suggested by Genzken and it took place, and not by order of the Reichphysician Dr. Grawitz; then it must have taken place toward the end of 1944.

Q: Can you state that Genzken was informed of what was going on in Block 46 in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp prior to August, 1943?

A: That is a conclusion which results in the actual fact. Until approximately April or June, 1943, Genzken was the official chief of Dr. Ding-Schuler. He gave his approval for the establishment of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS at Buchenwald.

Q: And I think you testified that Schuler remained in contact with Genzken after the summer of 1943?

A: Yes. The correspondence lasted until the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945.

Q: So that Genzken continued to be informed of experiments in Block 46?

A: In this correspondence, between Dr. Ding-Schuler and Genzken experiments were almost never mentioned at all. Dr. Ding-Schuler told Genzken about his plans to become a lecturer at some university, and in that connection there were always phrases like, "My typhus experiments have shown this and that." There were never any exact statistics. There were always things that were mentioned. These were not reports. However, Genzken knew that Dr. Ding-Schuler was now Chief of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research and had been where the vaccine was produced

Q: Now, Mr. Kogon, we have mentioned the name of the Defendant Hoven from time to time during the course of this examination. However I wish you would now outline to the Tribunal a more complete picture of Hoven's position in the camp. Tell us exactly what he did and whether or not he was connected in any way with what might be called the Euthanasia program in the Camp. In other words, tell us what you knew about the Defendant Hoven.

It is very difficult to describe it in short. I shall do that in a very few sentences providing that I may make certain corrections which do not concern the matters on hand, but which might make Dr. Hoven appear in a certain light.

Approximately from 1941 on, Dr. Hoven was the Camp Physician at Buchenwald Concentration Camp. There was also a local physician there of the Waffen-SS. Occasionally the two functions were coordinated. The local physician of the Waffen-SS and the Camp Physician, for a certain period of time, as far as I know, worked together. Dr. Hoven was also the local physician of the Waffen-SS. From the very beginning when he arrived at the camp, he did not show any particular interest in the medical matters at the camp, perhaps because he did not feel himself certain in the field. He stated that quite publicly. I discovered later he had made his medical examination at a very late time and under quite peculiar circumstances which did not call for a very deep knowledge of medical matters. For example, if I am informed correctly, or if I am completely informed on this point, he has never personally performed any operations.

Dr. Hoven was a man who wanted to lead as good and as comfortable a life as possible. When he came into the prisoners' hospital, he found the prevailing conditions there. We clearly showed to him that a certain category of prisoners, namely the political prisoners, the prisoners with the red triangle, were giving all the orders practically. These political, prisoners administered the whole dispensary internally. The SS-Physician was not able to take care of all the details and have control of all those things. As a result of this, Dr. Hoven did not even make the attempt at the very beginning to do anything about it. He just appointed certain political prisoners and said everything was to be made available to them. That included food, clothing, pictures, paintings, etc.

Furthermore, Dr. Hoven, without any doubt, had some sympathy for those political prisoners who very quickly realized that in him they had found a useful tool to obtain more power against the SS in running the camp. Within a very brief period of time, Dr. Hoven, without of course being able to see all the reasons for what was going on, found himself caught in a net of intrigue and he became the tool of this category of prisoners.

As a result of this, Dr. Hoven, until the time of his arrest and even afterwards, was one of the most popular people with that category of prisoners. He was one of the most popular SS physicians. He let the prisoners have their own way most of the time.

And when members of the illegal camp administration on the part of the prisoners told them that he was to have this traitor, who was considered a traitor by this category of prisoners, then he had it done as if a similar order or suggestion had been given to him on the part of the SS in this capacity as camp physician.

MR. McHANEY: I think we missed a word or two in the translation. I would like to clear that up. Did you testify that the illegal inmate government, the political prisoners, on occasion used the Defendant Hoven to execute the so-called traitors to the inmate government?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. McHANEY: I do not think this was clear in the translation that came over.

Does the Court wish to adjourn at this time?

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until one-thirty.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)