1947-02-18, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: General, when was the typhus and virus institute of the OKH at Lemberg activated?
A: I cannot tell you that exactly. I only know that in the year of 1941, I think it was in June, I attended the institute during an inspection in Lemberg and that, at that time, it was fully activated.
Q: Now, General, I listened to your testimony concerning typhus and the possibility of your having been present at a conference on typhus on 29 December 1941, and I'm a bit confused by that testimony. Do you deny having been present at a conference with Conti, Reiter, Gildemeister, Mrugowsky or any one of them on 29 December 1941 concerning typhus vaccines and the testing thereof?
A: Already in Oberursel in September, 1945, I said that regarding the date, day, time and place and participants of such a conference I knew nothing because of the length of time which preceded it. I know nothing clearly in my recollection. I only know that at some time when typhus started to expand with us, that is the winter of 1941 or 1942, I drew attention to the civilian sector, and I think it was Conti, of the large losses of material regarding eggs and I remember the number of fifty or more per cent in that connection. At that time I already stated in Oberursel at the time when I didn't know everything that I know now I didn't know what it was really all about — that I had nothing to do with a conference in any way in connection with concentration camps or the use of inmates or the use of any methods which deviated from the ones employed so far, and I can only repeat that here.
Q: Well, General, since you mentioned this statement at Oberursel let's put it before the Tribunal. This is Document NO.732 which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit 451 for identification. General, this is a copy of that statement you made in Oberursel, isn't it?
A: Yes, in Oberursel I made many such statements.
Q: Let's turn to paragraph 4 of this statement where it says:
According to the statement of the interrogating American officer, I was supposed to have attended a meeting in 1941, at which Reiter, Conti and Mrugowsky were present, and to have suggested the carrying out of typhus research on human beings. I cannot recollect the date, place and participants, nor the course of such a meeting because of the many years that have passed and the numerous incidents that have occurred.
Paragraph 5:
As far as the typhus problem is concerned, it may have been the following: Production of the known, very effective typhus vaccine, according to the method of Prof. Weigel of Lemberg, which was derived from lice, dragged far behind the actual demands, despite an increase. Typhus vaccine was also produced in the Robert Koch Institute, through cultures in chicken eggs; its dependable efficiency, however, was not sufficiently proved. To provide adequate protection for the combat areas, as well as for the zone of the interior against typhus, it became necessary to clarify the value of this vaccine at the earliest moment. It is therefore quite possible that in the course of a conference Dr. Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry on studies about parallel tests, about dosage, compatibility and efficiency of this typhus vaccine on the human being.
The purpose was to arrive at a final conclusion whether the vaccine produced by the Robert Koch Institute was adequately efficient and could be used in the Wehrmacht and in typhus areas on the Eastern Front with a considerable prospect of success.
Now, General, you can't deny that you participated in such a meeting on 29 December 1941, can You? There is that possibility, isn't there?
A: I said that I can say nothing about the time it took place and I have already testified here that, naturally, conferences took place about the typhus and vaccine question. When the interrogator at Oberursel asked me directly whether it couldn't be possible that I had spoken to Mrugowsky and that such a conference had taken place I told him that I was quite sure that many such conferences took place. What I was concerned with — I spoke about it before — was the testing of the chicken egg vaccine on a sufficient number of persons in a certain vicinity; that is, within an area where spotted typhus had already occurred or there was an imminent danger existing.
Q: Now, General, lets don't confuse the issue by interjecting disputed matters like concentration camps and the method of testing, etc. We are now trying to establish whether this meeting took place and I understand that your attorney is vigorously attaching this entry in the Ding Diary; also Dr. Mrugowsky's attorney is asserting that this is a forgery. I am very much interested in your asserting that there is a possibility that you attended such a meeting. With whom were you working on this typhus problem? When did you first meet Mrugowsky?
A: I do not know how to understand you when you ask me where I worked. We in the army were concerned with the question the minute the first occurrences of typhus became known and this question was with us until we came to the conclusion that in addition to the increase of production of drugs we would have to resort to delousing with the most certain methods available. You have to imagine that from the moment the reports came from the front our concern with this question did not stop at all and I am quite sure that the front physician as well as the home physician had many conferences of that nature.
Q: When did you first meet Mrugowsky?
A: In my opinion I met him at the beginning of the Eastern Campaign. For the first time I heard the name Mrugowsky mentioned by Schreiber, who drew my attention to the fact that Mrugowsky was a very well educated hygienist, that he had much practical knowledge and that he would have to be concerned with that problem anyway in order to care for the troops who were committed at the front, and thereby got into contract with the Wehrmacht. I assure that this occurred during the summer of 1941—yes, I think it was the summer of 1941.
Q: Well, do you remember the occasion of your first con tact with him?
Did you call him to talk to you about the typhus problem?
A: I cannot tell you that. I think contact took place perhaps in Berlin but I think it was more probable that it was at the Headquarters.
Q: How many times did you have contact with Mrugowsky?
A: I only got into personal contact with him during 2 larger conferences which took place in the latter years where the question was general vaccine measures for the Wehrmacht; beyond that I think we may have met on two or three occasions. I don't think we met any more than that.
Q: What was the occasion of this conference that you are talking about? What problems were you discussing there? What was decided? When was it held?
A: I cannot give you any exact dates. We were concerns with the combined vaccinations against diarrhea, against typhus exanthematicus in connection with typhoid and cholera and, in addition, general hygienic measures at the front; delousing was mentioned and played a part at that time and I think cold may have played a part then. I can't tell you exactly.
Q: Could that have been some time in the early part of 1943?
A: It is very hard for me to tell you that.
Q: Well, the reason I put that to you, General, is because I find an entry in the Ding Diary on 24 March 1943 to 20 April 1943 where it says "carrying out of a large scale experiment on 45 persons by a process of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS by SS-Standartenfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky, vaccinations were made on 8 different days within 4 weeks against smallpox, typhus, typhoid a and b, cholera, spotted fever and diphtheria." Now you have just mentioned here that this conference was concerned with vaccinations of various types, some of which I have just mentioned here.
I am just suggesting to you that maybe Mrugowsky left this conference and went to Buchenwald and carried out this mass vaccination test that is entered here on the 23rd of March 1943. Is that a possibility too?
A: I can only say that the problem was so wide and open one could not possibly create a precise date of the spring of 1943 on something that played a part during every conference. This was born of the principle not to give too many vaccinations to the soldier but copy foreign countries and combine a number of vaccines, 2, 3, or 4 in one injection. That is nothing new—foreign countries had practiced that for some time, whereas in Germany there were still some inhibitions about that procedure. This was a point which was quite openly discussed during scientific senates, conferences, and even smaller discussions. Perhaps I should add that I am not quite sure when this combination of vaccinations was introduced but it had already played a part before 1943.
Q: But what was the subject of your conference at which Mrugowsky was in attendance that you have mentioned?
A: I cannot tell you that. I must repeat that so many conferences took place in the front and at home about various things that it is quite impossible for me that I could precisely tell you the date of any one such conference if I am not given some material, which would be now a printed report, which would refresh my memory as to the exact date.
Q: What other meeting do you remember that you had with Mrugowsky?
A: I have just told you these were general meetings. I assume that he attended the general malaria conference in the year of 1944, which was intended to set up certain dates and to establish geographically exactly in what territories of Italy, the Balkans and Russia malaria prophylactics were to be carried out.
I think he attended there; if not he himself, a representative of his must have been there.
Q: And there is a possibility that you were at a meeting with him in December 1941 concerning this typhus problem, isn't there?
A: I can neither say yes nor can I say no. At that time of the year we had serious concerns regarding typhus.
Q: What was your association with Reiter in connection with typhus?
A: None at all.
Q: Did you ever have any contact with Reiter?
A: I had contacts with Reiter because he was a member of the Scientific Senate but I have already told you that this Senate met only on very rare occasions during the war and not at all after 1942. Otherwise I have very rarely met Reiter. I had no conference with Reiter except for the Scientific Senate. At least I do not recollect a simple one.
Q: Well, what was Reiter's principle job?
A: Reiter was President of the Reich Public Health Office. I think that such matters which required mutual settlement in Germany, for instance in the field of drugs, in the field of health welfare, in the field of directives regarding the control of some vaccines or other drugs—these were all matters that came within the Reich public Health Office. But as I said before, my contacts with that office were so rare that I could not give you any detailed examples of their activities.
Q: Well, the Reich Public Health Office, was that a part of the Ministry of the Interior?
A: I only remember the following. The Reich Public Health Office came within the sphere of the Reich Ministry of Interior.
I remember that this was not an exactly successful marriage. How far the Reich Public Health Office acted independently and how far it was dependent on the Ministry of the interior, I can't tell you.
Q: Well he was probably subordinated to Conti as Secretary of State for Health, wasn't he?
A: Yes, to the Reich Minister of the Interior, and since this was a medical agency, the Reich Health Office and, I should think, that he was subordinated to the entire State Secretary of the Minister of the Interior.
Q: How often did you have contact with Gildemeister?
A: For the last time I met Gildemeister during a conference where my successor, the Army Medical Inspector, was present too, in November 1944. At that time we held a conference about the necessity of doing something against eventual occurrences of influenza which threatened to attack us during that coming winter and if I am not deceived, Mr. Gildemeister was present during that conference. Whether he attended the malaria conference I cannot tell you for certain. It is possible, however, Whether he attended the dysentery conference, that is something I should think was probable. Whether I had any discussions with him at any time during that winter regarding a spotted fever or chicken-egg vaccine can be seen from the fact that I remember these amounts of eggs. Otherwise I had no contact at all with Gildemeister.
Q: Well but you did have contacts with Gildemeister on typhus vaccines, didn't you?
A: Certainly there was some discussion regarding the typhus vaccine and other certain vaccines from the Robert Koch Institute with reference to chicken eggs.
Q: Gildemeister was President of the Robert Koch Institute, wasn't he?
A: Yes, Gildemeister was President of the Robert Koch Institute.
Q: And the Robert Koch Institute was subordinated to the Ministry of Interior, was it not?
A: Yes, I believe to know that when it became a Reich institute it must have been subordinated to the Reich Ministry of the Interior. I don't know what the situation was before that with certainty. I always imagined that the Robert Koch Institute was the agency of which the Reich Ministry of the Interior made use when it needed any counsel on any matter. I think that is how I always understood it.
Q: And as a practical matter Conti was the man in charge of the Robert Koch Institute in the Ministry of Interior?
A: Yes, I would say that with certainty when it was a Reich institution. I don't know what the situation was before that with certain. I can tell you nothing for certain. This is merely a supposition on my part.
Q: Now, didn't you have contacts with Conti on the problem of typhus, production of typhus vaccines, the efficiency of typhus vaccines?
A: Here again I have to say that the contact with Conti was made in order to present the dangerous situation of the winter of 1941 and 1942, and when beyond that any vaccine was discussed, it could only have been a question of the Otto vaccine. I myself has heard of this vaccine. I had often discussed this vaccine with Schreiber whereas the other vaccines which came into appearance later and are being mentioned here were of no conception to me at that time.
Q: Now, while your memory may be hazy about whether this or that person was present at a conference on this or that date, there is no dispute, is there, that you did in fact attend a conference where the whole question of the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine was discussed and where it was decided that the experiments would have to be made on human beings; isn't that true?
A: Not, that is not true in this form. Never and at no time have I said that I attended a large scale conference in a large circle with these precise details. I only said at all times that we were concerned with information passed on to the civilian sector. What, after that, took place in the way of conference I don't know. But as for a conference as it contained in the Ding Diary in this form and in the decisions as they were reached there, I did not take part.
Q: Do you know under whose jurisdiction the production of typhus vaccine came?
A: That is hard to say. For instance, the production of vaccine in Krakow and Lemberg was ordered by the Army Medical Inspector. The procedure was known. The directive originates from my predecessor and was maintained by me. Who gave their directives to the Robert Koch Institute or the Behring Works I cannot say. I would assume that such institutes, such as the Institute of Geheimrat Otto in Frankfurt, are here for the purpose of concerning themselves with such production without receiving a direct order to that effect.
For instance, there is a state directive regarding testing of typhus vaccines which was only given out in the year of 1942; that is to say, until that period of time such institutions who were naturally under some sort of general control could concern themselves with such vaccine questions as they thought fit to do. That is how I look at it. As I said, only from a certain period of time vaccine control was introduced. That was 1942 and I mean typhus vaccine control
Q: Well, who emphasized the typhus vaccine control? General, I get the picture that typhus was a very big problem in 1941, '42, '43. Vaccine was a very critical problem. Now, I should think it is rather elemental that there would have been one person or one agency which concerned itself with the production of typhus vaccine, who saw that it was produced, and who saw that it was collected to the proper places.
Now, I get some confused picture from you about two institutes of the OKH at Krakow and Lemberg under the jurisdiction of you in the Army. Then you know nothing about the Behring Works at Marburg and Lemberg; you know nothing about the Robert Koch Institute and their production, and of course, I need not ask you about the production at Buchenwald.
Now, didn't somebody know about these production matters? Now, you know, tell us. If you don't, say I don't know and we will go on. Was there no control agency which was charge —
A: I can only say that we were so busy with our own affairs that if you ask me that way, who was responsible for the civilian sector I can only say Conti, for that is the reason why we had a state secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, and just as we consider the Wehrmacht as a state institution where the medical inspector was competent in his field, then Conti must have been competent in the civilian sector. That is the only way I can imagine it — no other way.
Q: General, were you relying on your institutes at Krakow and Lemberg to supply all the typhus vaccine for the Wehrmacht?
A: Now, for years —- and I only remind you of tetanus serum-
Q: I don't care anything about the tetanus serum now. You said you weren't relying simply on those two concerns.
Now, where else did you go to try to get vaccine production, typhus vaccine production?
A: Well, we received something from the Behring works. Probably Geheimrat Otto delivered something for the home territory as far as he produced them. It may be that the Robert Koch Institute delivered. These are the best known agencies. There were the Saechsische Serum Works. They are here in order to produce vaccines -
Q: Don't you know whether you got vaccines from then or not? You said there is a possibility. Now, you don't want this Tribunal to believe that the highest medical officer in the Wehrmacht didn't know where he was getting his vaccines, do you?
A: I just named these agencies from where the Wehrmacht may have received their vaccines — Behring Works, maybe the Robert Koch Institute — I cannot say that with certainty because I don't know its extent and its capacity of production, I don't think it was too large. Then the Institute for Experimental Therapy in Frankfurt on the Main, and we received our dysentery vaccine at the Hygiene Institute of the University of Berlin which was Professor Zeiss; in addition, at the Acid Works and at the Behring Works, and other vaccines came from the Saechsische Serum Works, and I don't think I forgot anything. These were the agencies which were obliged to deliver these things to the Wehrmacht, and that, in fact, did deliver.
Very well. Did you receive production reports from those concerns?
A: I didn't see them. By my office, the expert worker must have seen there or he must have made out the order and he must have carried on some correspondence in order to see whether deliveries could be made to the needed extent. These weren't my affairs. For that purpose I had my collaborators and my experts.
A: Well now, it has taken us a rather long time to get here but the?? is that you, or at least your office, very well knew exactly what the typhus production situation was, isn't that right?
A: Yes, in the Wehrmacht sector; probably in the civilian sector too.
Q: Now, what about the allocation of typhus vaccines? Did anybody control that?
A: It was at first from Krakow — at first Oberstabsarzt Eier. This was made by him for a short time; that is, when he received certain requests from certain parts of the front he allocated them according to the need. That, however, led to difficulties and then the Army Medical Inspectorate took over and I don't think I am wrong if I say that from the period of time of September, or rather, fall 1944, I took this authority away from the Army Medical Inspectorate and transferred it to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services. That's where we received reports about production and allocation. Until that period of time, that is, from 1942 up until 1944, the Army Medical Inspectorate was in charge of that work.
Q: Well, that was you in both instances. You were the Army Medical Inspectorate from '42 up until '44, and you were also Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Now, isn't it true that you or agencies under your control had the power to control the allocation of typhus vaccine in Germany?
A: What we allocated was mostly our own produced vaccine from Krakow and Lemberg. I think we probably received reports from the other offices, namely, what can be produced or what was ready, and then a comparison was made with the need and then it was allocated according to that need.
We didn't only have to care for the front army but also for the home army. I cannot give you any figures of typhus at home but sporadically such incidents occurred and that is why vaccinations had to be made, which perhaps extended to a large proportion. I cannot tell you that.
Q: General, I don't think you answered the question. I asked you if is not a fact that you or agencies under your control had complete authority and power over the allocation of typhus vaccines by whomever manufactured Robert Koch Institute, Institute of the OKH at Krakow, the Behring Works, anybody else-didn't you or one of your agencies have the power to allocate that typhus vaccine production? Yes or no.
A: No, no. You mustn't forget that we had nothing to do with the civilian sector and that the civilian sector did not only have to care for home but also for the eastern territories. Not the Wehrmacht was competent for that but the civilian sector, where they had a sufficient amount of leading health personnel in the eastern territories, in the Ukraine, in the south and in France, and that in itself excludes the possibility that the Wehrmacht was the agency which had to care or had to order anything about the entire allocation of vaccine production.
That is the same as with the delousing means why the civilian sector was relied upon for eastern territories, for home country and for what we needed. I must say that the civilian sector, the question whether I had vaccine production in my hand, must be clearly denied by me.
Q: All right, let's split it up. Did you have complete control over the allocation as between the various branches of the Wehrmacht?
A: Yes. Whoever worked on that had a list where stock and demand could be compared, and according to the size of the branch of the Wehrmacht or, mainly, according to the urgency of the demand, he allocated however he could, if it was possible, to the larger extent of the demand, if not, a little less. I think that Oberstabsarzt Schmidt could tell you more about it than I could, who was actually working in that office.
Q: General, the production and allocation of typhus vaccines as between the military and civilian sectors was a problem which fell squarely within the Fuehrer Decree of July, 1942, wasn't it?
A: I only had to care for my own needs. I had no authority to watch the civilian sector, no duties of allocation. All I had to do was coordinate the Wehrmacht. Dr. Conti was active in the civilian sector.
Q: That's right, and Dr. Brandt was standing between you and Dr. Conti to see that both of you got what you needed insofar as that was possible, wasn't he?
A: Yes. For the personnel and material question, yes. I don't know how the special question of vaccines was treated. I never had any discussions with him about vaccines.
Q: Is it not true that certain German hygienists held the view that the effectiveness of typhus vaccines could not be established in advance through animal experiments because about forty percent of the animals have the power of resistance and will not get sick although artificially infected?
A: I am not informed about that. I cannot tell you that. I don't know from where you get this utterance, but it is something so special that that I couldn't defy in my attitude towards it. I am not aware of the comparison in the number of animals and persons.
Q: Well, you heard Karl Brandt testify from the stand that an his opinion human experiments were necessary in typhus just as in malaria.
Do you remember that?
A: No. I cannot remember that.
Q: Well, what is your opinion in the matter, or do you have one? Do you believe that it is necessary to experiment on human beings as distinguished from animals to determine the effectiveness of typhus vaccines?
A: I can only say the following in that connection: my concern was the practical commitment of an available but not tested vaccine with human beings and with human beings to a large extent. They were to be inoculated with a vaccine, the effect of which was tested to a sufficient extent that we could well say that no harm would be done. With reference to vaccine experiments on human beings which went beyond that, with reference to the necessity of that with reference to the limitation regarding animals in a special case, these are such outspoken technical concepts which as a prerequisite demand a lot of knowledge and which cannot be done away with general phrases where the general medical man could not possibly judge, and I should have to ask you to hear an expert on that question because I am not in a position to give any judgment on that.
Q: Now, General, you admit that an extreme necessity existed to determine the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine in the winter 1941-'42. You further admit in your own statement here that this chicken egg vaccine was not sufficiently proved.
You go on to say that to provide adequate protection for the combat areas as well as for the Zone of Interior against typhus, it became necessary to clarify the value of this vaccine at the earliest moment, and then you say that it is quite possible that Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry out these studies.
Q: Now just what did you do to establish the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine? And I don't want to hear you tell me about compatibility tests. I want to hear about the tests that were carried one to determine the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine.
A: I have already said that for some — and I cannot tell you for how long — and I believe I said that in Oberursel, too, the report came along that this vaccine had been committed and had proved itself to be good and was being produced to a large extent. That was one report. The other fact was that we had decided to free ourselves from vaccines as such and as a substitute resort and concentrate on delousing means.
Q: Now let's forget the delousing, General. Let's forget that. The delousing is not in issue here. You haven't yet told me about any experiments that were carried out to determine the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine. That experiments were carried out? What did they do? How did they determine that the egg yolk vaccine was or was not effective?
A: I didn't establish any effectiveness at all. I merely said that it should be used practically, and this is not an experiment, but it is merely a use as in the case of a drug from which in practice can be seen whether it is effective or whether it is not effective. Beyond that I had no interest at all. I never initiated any experiments nor was I informed about any experiments. Dr. Eyer progressed so much in his production that this in itself was a very positive side of the affair. As for experiments, I knew nothing about them, and this wasn't a question I dealt with.
Q: General, you say here that the purpose —. You say first that it is, therefore, quite possible that in the course of a conference Dr. Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry on studios about parallel tests, about dosage compatibility and efficiency of this typhus vaccine on human beings.
The purpose was to arrive at a find conclusion whether the vaccine produced by the Robert Koch Institute was adequately efficient and could be used in the Wehrmacht and in the typhus areas of the Eastern Front with a considerable prospect of success.
I am asking you whether or not is was ever determined whether the egg yolk vaccine was suitable for use by the Wehrmacht. Did you ever arrive at any conclusion on that?
A: I would assume from the start that typhus vaccine from chicken eggs was used to a smaller extent. From figures of production from Frankfurt, for instance, it can be seen that they already delivered to to military and civilian sides. There was no large commitment of that vaccine, and I think it actually has happened at sometime and some where.
Something was published about that in the press, and I think some extensive article appeared at a later date about it. I am quite sure that I and Schreiber, too, had the impression that the question of the effectiveness of the egg yolk vaccine could be assumed as having been confirmed. Whether and how far we were calmed because of that and we were satisfied, I don't know, because it is remarkable that all research work in foreign countries as in the case of France, Russia and Germany always searched for a different vaccine.
That is the reason why the question couldn't have been yet finally concluded but for me it was concluded insofar as within the framework of what was available this vaccine could be used and I didn't want to know anything more than that.
Q: And how again was it determined that this vaccine could be used? How did you arrive at that judgment?
A: Schreiber must have received some kind of material on that or the Army Medical Inspectorate. I only remember that I was told that this vaccine was all right.
Q: And when were you told that?
A: I cannot give you any exact date. Maybe Mr. Schmidt would know that who worked on that question.
Q: Well, it must have been sometime after the first part of 1942, or your statement here about Mrugowsky and the necessity of testing this vaccine is just a lot of gibberish. Don't you have any idea when you decided that it was okay to go ahead with egg yolk vaccine use?
A: Well, I mention it was produced. I mention it was used to an increasing measure. I mention reports came about it from eastern territories where it was used probably. What the extent was I don't know because Otto still writes in 1943 that it hasn't yet been proved to a large scale, but I must again mention delousing, and you can't push me away from that because therein was the new decision to get away from this other procedure. Our institutes, perhaps, could have been bombed and destroyed in Krakow and Lemberg Then we would have been left with nothing. That is why we concentrated on delousing with all our powers because it was more certain than vaccines.
Q: General, wasn't there a commission formed later in 1941 to study this whole typhus vaccine problem?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: You don't know that Conti and Gildemeister. Reiter, Rose, Schreiber and Mrugowsky were on this commission?
A: No.
Q: Who was Bieber, B-i-e-b-e-r?
A: That is a gentleman from the Ministry of the Interior.
Q: What was he doing in the Ministry of the Interior?
A: He was a man — he was a collaborator of Conti.
Q: Did he ever do anything on typhus?
A: I cannot tell you that. I personally never got into contact with Bieber. At the moment I couldn't tell you when I saw him or when I spoke to him. I only know Bieber because of his name which does not exclude the possibility that I met him or spoke to him, but I had no personal or official relations with him.
Q: And you can't tell this Tribunal of any specific instance in which you received a report on the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine? You know of no special instance where experiments were made or in which this egg yolk vaccine was tested, is that right?
A: I couldn't tell you anything of that nature at the moment.
Q: All you know is that it was a very important problem at the end of 1941 but somehow the problem seemed to evaporate and you don't know how it was resolved, is that right?
A: No. The problem didn't evaporate. In my opinion, the production of this vaccine was increased. That is why we didn't have to give anything away of the vaccine that belonged to us which in itself helped us essentially. In addition, there was the question of delousing so it certainly didn't evaporate. It progressed systematically and I should like to repeat once more that it is a misunderstanding of my position and my tasks and a misunderstanding of the tasks of my collaborators if you think that I could give you such detailed information. I hope that if, for instance, you put these questions to the expert, Schmidt, who is a hygienist and who worked on these questions, he would be able to help you over this vacuum of evaporation. I only repeat what I have already stated.
Q: Well, so far as you yourself know, you cannot tell this Tribunal wether the problem of the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine was solved other than by your explanation about delousing?
A: No doubt by the use.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)