1947-02-18, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court Room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FLEMMING: Attorney Flemming for Dr. Kaufmann and the defendant Rudolf Brandt. May it please the Tribunal, the defendant Rudolf Brandt requests that he be excused from the Court Room after the recess in due consideration of his physical condition.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the physical condition of defendant Brandt today, Counsel?
DR. FLEMMING: The defendant Rudolf Brandt has recently requested that he be examined by the prison medical officer. The prison medical officer has determined that Rudolf Brandt is in a bad general physical condition; and among other things he has ordered that he be given additional food and also has ordered that he rest. Rudolf Brandt feels very much exhausted by this morning's session and therefore requests that he be excused immediately following the afternoon recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has before it no basis upon which to excuse the defendant Rudolf Brandt. The Tribunal will request the prison physician to make another examination of the defendant Brandt after the session today and report to the Tribunal his findings on the matter; but at this time the Tribunal has no justification upon which to excuse the defendant Brandt from attendance. Will the Secretary General request the prison physician to make another examination of defendant Brandt after the close of the session today? The prison physician should report to this Court concerning his findings as to the physical condition of defendant Brandt and give his opinion as to whether or not the defendant Brandt's physical condition is such that he should be excused from attendance upon the trial tomorrow or at any subsequent period.
SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER — Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: General, do you remember any specific steps which you took in the latter part of 1941 with respect to the typhus problem?
A: In the latter half of 1941? I have already said that the latter half of 1941 would have been the period of time when the cases of typhus began to spread.
Q: Did you ever suggest placing the production of typhus vaccines in the hands of the pharmaceutical industry?
A: If this was at the very beginning, I cannot say. However, I am of the opinion that, for example, the foundation of the Behring Institute at Lemberg was caused by the necessity of producing more typhus vaccine. I cannot remember exactly; but I can still remember that the question was discussed with regard to the industry. I was thinking first of all of the Behring Works at Marburg and that we should request them to increase their production. That is the only thing I can say on the subject.
Q: Well, let's put Document NO-1323 to you, Doctor. This is the letter you wrote to Conti, isn't it, on 6 October, rather than on 10 November 1941?
A: Yes, that is quite possible.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution offers this as Prosecution Exhibit 452 for identification.
Q: Will you please read this letter aloud, General?
A: To the Reich Health Leader, for information of the Reich Minister of the Interior, Berlin, the Government of the Government General, at Krakow, the Reich Health Office. Institute for Typhus and Virus Research, Krakow.
Several offices, particularly in the Government General, have apparently experienced an increasing demand for typhus vaccine during the past few months. At any rate the OKH has repeatedly been asked for typhus vaccine. On account of the requirements of the OKH itself, this request could be met only in part. As far as it is possible to judge the development of the epidemic, it is to be expected that the demand will continue to exist in the future. It is therefore suggested to place production of the typhus vaccine in the hands of the large-scale pharmaceutical industry. The army, too, although probably on a smaller scale, would be considered a customer.
Q: You'll notice from the attachment that this letter was passed along by Conti to the Robert Koch Institute, wasn't it?
A: The Reich Minister of the Interior requested it to be returned by the Robert Koch Institute.
Q: That means that it undoubtedly came to the attention of Gildemeister, didn't it?
A: Yes, Gildemeister was the president of the Robert Koch Institute.
Q: Did this letter in any way refresh your recollection about any meeting in December of '41 with Gildemeister and Reiter concerning typhus vaccines?
A: No. That only refreshes my memory to the extent that before I knew of the document I had answered in reply to your question that I could faintly remember — and I was thinking of the Behring Works first of all — that the question had arisen that the civilian industry was to be included; and this fact has been confirmed by this document. What Conti did afterwards with this letter was not within my sphere of influence. If it has been assumed that the Robert Koch Institute was the institute and Prof. Gildemeister was the person subordinated to Conti who advised him, then this would be quite an ordinary procedure and then the state secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior should pass on such a letter from the OKH to such a subordinate or consulting agency.
Q: You don't know what was done concerning your suggestion that the pharmaceutical industry be in the production of a vaccine, typhus vaccine?
A: Well, I only meant to say that either the production was increased or that the Institute of the Civilian Sector at Lemberg, or of the industry which has already been mentioned, that this was the effect of it. And, as far as I am able to remember, this institute at Lemberg has produced vaccine from the intestines of lice and also the vaccine from chicken egg yolks. Therefore, this is the effect of the request by the OKH.
Q: Where did they get their experience at the Behring Works in Lemberg in the production of Weigl vaccine?
A: I cannot tell you that at the present time. Maybe I am mistaken. Perhaps they have only produced this vaccine from chicken eggs but I stated I thought they were producing both; that in the very beginning produced Weigl vaccine. I cannot say for certain, that is only an assumption on my part. I can only say this on my recollection.
Q: Was Weigl working under Eier at Krakow in the OKH Institute at Lemberg?
A: On the occasion of my visit in the summer of 1941 I have seen him at that institute and I have talked to him and knew that he had been working there for quite a long period of time.
Q: I want to put another document to you, General, NO-1321. This is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 453 for identification. General, this is nothing but a simple little cover letter which makes mention of a meeting conference on the 29 December 1941 concerning typhus. We just have two pages of it — the second and third page. It says up at the top:
To the State Institute for Experimental Therapy Frankfurt / Main
That was the institute under Geheimrat Otto?
A: That was the institute under Geheimrat Otto.
This does not have a letter head, as we call it.
Q: Now, let's wait just a minute, General, we'll find out what the document is first.
Inclosed fine copy of notes of a conference which took place here on 29 December 1941. I request you report what quantities of typhus serum can be produced in your institute per month, and will be available for the civilian population. Furthermore, is this vaccine free of charge, or will it be charge and at how much?
In addition, I would appreciate your cooperation with the Institute for Contagious diseases "Robert Koch' Berlin for the purpose of establishing a test method for typhus vaccine, and submit same to me.
Then we see that a copy of these minutes of this meeting were sent also to the Robert Koch Institute, to the Government General in Krakow, to first the Army Medical Inspectorate, which would be to your office, to the Behring Works of the I. G. Farben, and to Dr. Conti. Now, does this little document by any chance refresh your recollection about the meeting of 29 December 1941?
A: No.
Q: You can see that there apparently was a meeting?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know a man by the name of Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholtz?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell the Tribunal who Scholtz was.
A: Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholtz was a collaborator in the Army Medical Inspectorate.
Q: Collaborator on what?
A: He was in the Department for Scientific Health Leadership or he also may have worked in the Organizational Department. However, I cannot say that any more. However, he was dealing with medical matters. I, therefore, assumed that he may have been with the Department for Health Leadership.
Q: Did he have anything to do with typhus, for example?
A: Not expressively. He handled everything connected with health measures and health guidance. He was a medical officer who had received previous training but not in the field of hygiene and he was not a bacteriologist.
Q: I don't suppose you ever had any contact with him?
A: I had the same contact with him as I had to the other fifty medical officers who belonged to the Staff of the Medical Inspectorate.
Q: 50 or 15, I didn't understand you.
A: 50.
Q: Do you know a man by the name of Professor Dr. Kudicke?
A: "Kuleger" — he was professor for surgery at the University of Jena.
Q: K-u-d-i-c-k-e?
A: No, the man I refer to is called. "Kuleger". At the moment I cannot remember the name of Kudicke.
Q: You know a man by the name of Dr. Buurmann, B-u-u-r-m-a-n-n?
A: Buermann, with "E". No. I don't know that — Buermann.
Q: Do you know anyone by the name of Z-a-h-n?
A: No.
Q: Neumann?
A: I know a man by the name of Neumann. He was a high staff physician who later on worked on personnel matters in the Army Medical Inspectorate. He only handled personnel affairs. He had nothing to do with medical matters.
Q: Know anyone by the name of Demnitz?
A: Not within my field. No. Demnitz as a physician may have played a part in literature but not within my field of competence.
Q: You ought to have the defendant Mrugowsky tell you about Demnitz some day. But, in the meantime I am perhaps going to relieve you a little bit and put to you this report of 29 December 1941 because it appears there were two conferences on typhus that day. I have got the minutes of one of them here. I think you will find it interesting if not refresh your memory, about the meeting you took part in. I would like to put to you Document NO-1315. This will be —
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, just a moment. Attached to Document NO-1321, consisting of two pages, was another document of one page, Document NO-1316, was that intended to be attached?
MR. McHANEY: No, sir, it was not. I don't know what 1316 is.
THE PRESIDENT: We will return it to the Secretary General.
MR. McHANEY: Thank you. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 454 for identification. General, I would like to read this aloud so the Tribunal will have it before it.
Dated Berlin, 4 January 1942. Memorandum originating from the Reich Ministry of the Interior signed by Dr. Bieber, you told us about this morning, reads as follows:
On 29 December 1941 a conference took place at the Reich Ministry of the Interior concerning the development of a typhus vaccine in which, aside from the undersigned, the following took part:
From the Institute of Infectious Diseases 'Robert Koch': Vice President Dr. Gildemeister.
From the Governing Body of the Government General: Dr. Kudicke Med. Rat. Dr. Buurmann.
From the Army Medical Service: Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholz
From the I. G. Farben Industry, Behring Works Department: Director Zahn Neumann Dr. Demnitz
The conference had the following results:
a) A production center is to be erected in the Government General, specifically at Lemberg, which is to develop an anti-typhus vaccine according to the Weigl method. The production center is to be erected and activated by the Behring Works. The Wehrmacht has been asked, and has indicated its willingness, to place Professor Weigl at disposal for training of personnel, equipping of rooms, etc. The governors of the Government General will furnish the necessary buildings and rooms. The Behring Works will secure the necessary equipment and place the required orders for this with the Reich Office for economic Development with a priority certification from the Governor general. Production shall be built up in the shortest possible time so that its capacity will be the equivalent of that of the existing Wehrmacht Institute (Krakau and Lemberg). The vaccine developed is to be primarily at the disposal of the Reich and the Government General.
b) The vaccine which is presently being produced by the Behring Works from chicken eggs, shall be tested for its effectiveness in an experiment. For this purpose Dr. Demnitz will contact Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky.
c) If this Behring Works vaccine is proved to be effective the production capacity of the Behring Works in Marburg shall be essentially increased. The Behring Works will address an application to the Reich Ministry of the Interior for a priority certificate for the securing of the required contingents, and place the necessary orders with the Reich Office for Economic Development with this priority certificate.
d) The production of typhus vaccine at the 'Robert Koch' Institute shall be increased.
e) Methods for testing typhus vaccine shall be developed which will make state control possible.
The Behring Works are sending a representative to the Government General on 6 January 1942 so that preparations can be initiated immediately for the production of typhus vaccine according to the Weigl Method.
/s/ Bieber Ministerialrat Berlin, 29 December 1941.
General, does this refresh your recollection in any way about a meeting which you attended on the same date.
A: No.
Q: Did your subordinate, Scholz, report to you about this meeting?
A: About this meeting?
Q: Yes.
A: I cannot tell you that any more at this time. After all, the whole procedure was very normal and it does not contain anything in any respect which would have caused my intervention or which would have offered anything in particular aside from the fact that an in crease in the production of vaccine was to be attempted here.
Q: Well, I'd like to point out to you that it shows one very important thing, particularly in Paragraph b and that is that Dr. Mrugowsky, who was not at this meeting, was to be contacted so that he could carry out experiments to determine the effectiveness of the egg yolk vaccine, a problem which you have already admitted to the Tribunal was very important and one in which you were interested. So we see immediately that Gildemeister, for one, a representative from your office and people from the Behring Works agreed that tests would be carried out by Mrugowsky.
A: Gildemeister was not a representative from my office. That is a mistake. Gildemeister was expressly a member of the civilian sector and he may have been the adviser and collaborator of Conti but not of myself.
Q: General, we don't need a long statement on that. You misunderstood what I said. "Gildemeister and a representative of your office" who was Scholz-Oberstabsarzt Scholz. He was there, you remember?
A: At this conference, yes.
Q: So we see something in the nature of backing other than the SS for the experiments to be carried out by Mrugowsky which, as you now know, were carried out at Buchenwald. You didn't know anything about that?
A: No.
Q: Let me remind you of a few of the earlier entries in the Ding Diary. As early as 6 January 1942 the Diary shows that an experimental series was begun during which 31 persons were immunized with the Weigl vaccine from your institute at Krakow; 35 persons with vaccine made by the Process Cox, Gildemeister and Haagen; 35 persons with the vaccine "Behring Normal" made of course by the Behring Works at Marburg; and 34 other persons with another Behring vaccine. How do you explain that Ding by 6 January has Weigl vaccine from your institute at Krakow, the egg vaccine produced by the Behring Works and a similar vaccine and an infection material from the Robert Koch Institute unless that meeting between you, Conti, Gildemeister and Mrugowsky took place?
A: That can be explained very simply. With regard to the Weigl vaccine, I can only repeat once more that the Weigl vaccine was distributed to a large number of places as soon as the institute Krakow was established in 1939; that, for example, the Main Medical Depot of the SS was furnished with it; that, in my opinion, it was also stated in this letter that it has been previously furnished to various places and, as a result of this, it was not very difficult to obtain this Weigl vaccine.
Q: Do you know anything about a decree of 5 January 1942 concerning typhus?
A: No, it is impossible for me to know that although I would like to tell you very much. I cannot state that to you.
Q: Did there come a time when you issued instructions that typhus vaccine was no longer to be issued to the various individual branches of the Wehrmacht but only to you as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service or to your main medical supply office?
A: I believe that I have already previously mentioned that distribution was with the Army Medical Inspectorate and that afterwards I took over the distribution as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.
Q: Well, just for the record, let's put in Document NO.1318. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 455 for identification.
This is a letter from — the signature is noted as illegible. It's from Robert Koch Institute to the Reich Minister of the Interior. It's dated 21 January 1943:
Re: Typhus vaccine for the Wehrmacht Decree of 31 December 1942.
The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, approached with a letter of 11 January 1945 — copy enclosed — to the Government and industrial factories for typhus vaccine, with the request in future no longer to supply this vaccine to the various individual branches of the Wehrmacht, etc., but only to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service or his deputy, the Main Medical Supply Office. There are no objections to this order as far as the Robert Koch Institute is concerned.
Furthermore, information is requested as to the possible maximum output if typhus vaccine, what increase of production can be achieved by what date, and what quantities can be made available to the Wehrmacht and affiliated formations. A copy of the reply which I sent to the chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service to his request is also attached. The estimate, for 1943 anticipated, of the output of typhus vaccine has been made along very conservative lines; the stated quantity of 24 liters per months may be exceeded considerably.
Now, General, didn't you also exercise some control over the production of typhus vaccine as distinguished from the allocation of typhus vaccine?
A: It may be that such a question was asked by me or one of the people on my staff in order to be informed as to the extent. That is quite possible and I cannot say anything more about it at the moment.
Q: Well, you will recall that in Document No.1031, Prosecution Exhibit 308 — it was a memorandum concerning a spotted fever research order by Kent to Dr. Haagen and it stated "also a copy to the Science and Research Group of the Military Medical Academy". No, that is of the Luftwaffe. Paragraph 2 reads:
A decision as to the establishment of a vaccine manufacturing plant cannot yet be made because the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht, who alone is competent to decide about the procurement of vaccines, has not yet take a stand in the matter.
Doesn't that rather indicate that you had some control over production of typhus vaccines?
A: Something else is involved with regard to this document. This is a request to establish a new place of production and to obtain a large amount of personnel and material in order to establish new production facilities. I can only say with regard to this, that such a request has never reached my hands and I assume that somebody from the Luftwaffe, or perhaps Professor Rose, could give you more information about it because you have also seen from the document that no reply was ever received by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. We were never so impolite that we did not give any answer for months to letters which were received. One can only say that this request referring to the establishment of such an institute or the extension of such an institute never reached my hands and that is why I never gave any reply.
Q: Well but the point is they had to get your permission to establish new facilities, didn't they?
A: It may only be in this case that all new constructions and all new facilities required the approval of the OKW and that I, in my capacity as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, was also included. In connection with this I want to state that I could not give any approval of that kind because I did not have any funds. I had to submit them to the OKW and obtain their approval.
Q: What about the production facilities at Buchenwald—they didn't start until 1943 — I don't suppose you know anything about the production of vaccine there, do you?
A: No.
Q: Never heard of any vaccine produced by the Waffen-SS?
A: I have heard for the first time of a typhus vaccine produced by the Waffen-SS in the year 1945, when I was vaccinated in the prison camp at Bad Eibling with this vaccine.
Q: How do you explain your alleged ignorance of the Buchenwald experiments and vaccine production in the face of your critical interest with typhus problems and your personal control over typhus vaccine allocation?
A: I can only explain it to the fact that I did not know the name of Buchenwald at all, and if any vaccine by the Waffen-SS had reached my hands, or if I had ever heard of such a vaccine of the Waffen-SS, which is not impossible, then I would immediately have brought it into connection with the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS. I have never entered this institute but in any case I knew of its existence.
Q: But General, in January 1943, the Robert Koch Institute recognizes an order from you that they are to quit allocating vaccines to any of the branches of the Wehrmacht and have to channel everything through you. Now do you mean to tell the Tribunal that the typhus vaccine production station of the Waffen-SS at Buchenwald could do what they wanted to do with their production — you had no control over that and never heard of it — is that right?
A: I can only say that if such an order, because of the delivery, was issued by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, then this was only sent to a certain distribution and the Waffen-SS was also included in it. That probably was directed by the Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS, Jr. Genzken, because his letters were always kept very generally; if, and how long this vaccine was produced with the Waffen-SS, I cannot tell you. Perhaps Dr. Schmidt can give you more information about that because he was with the Medical Inspectorate. I myself have only discovered it for the first time in 1945.
Q: General, what possible interest could, the SS have in testing these egg-yolk vaccines on its own initiative in Buchenwald without your support as the Army Medical Inspector and the support of Conti as Secretary of State for Health?
A: The SS maintained its own field, as I have already previously described. The fact could not have remained hidden here that this sector worked completely by itself. Several documents give proof of the fact that requests were made for the establishment of a whole series of scientific research institutes and a whole number of approvals by agencies for that purpose. I have never found out anything about them. I have repeatedly stated that it was not possible for me to gain any insight into the character and the system and the intentions of the SS and therefore it is not surprising that this was also the case in that field.
I cannot say what the purpose of the SS was but I assume that one of the reasons was that they wanted to be independent and they wanted to be independent of any allocation through me so that I would not be able to say "You will get very little now, or nothing." That is one explanation. I cannot state anything further on the subject.
Q: Any SS troops using the Behring egg-yolk vaccine would be in the field under the jurisdiction of the Army Medical Inspectorate in medical natters, would they not?
A: The SS units at the front with regards to the medical service and, in this connection, which concerns the care for the men in combat, so the SS units were also vaccinated, and I am quite certain that at the beginning they were inoculated with the Weigl vaccine. I believe they were subsequently inoculated with the egg yolk vaccine but I cannot state that with certainty.
Q: How do you explain your alleged ignorance of the typhus experiments at Buchenwald in the face of the fact that Eier made a visit there, Schmidt made a visit there, there has been some testimony that lice were sent from the institute at Krakow, in the face of the fact that Ding made a report at the meeting of the Consulting Physicians in May 1943—how do you explain your ignorance of these matters? Did these men just fail to report all this to you?
A: With regard to Ding, I must repeat that I have not listened to his report and what I have heard of it, and what I have read, does not give me any information about where and how his experiments or his tests were carried out. With regard to the visits of Schmidt and Eier, I was completely surprised to see this entry and I cannot give you any information about it. However, I assume that it will be given by somebody else. Nobody talked to me about it and nobody received any orders from me.
Insofar as Buchenwald is concerned, I can say that I have heard the name mentioned for the first time after the capitulation.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any re-direct examination of this witness by defense counsel?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE:
Q: Professor, Mr. McHaney has asked you about the report and the lecture which Dr. Holzloehner gave at the meeting of the Consulting Physicians in December 1942. It was one of numerous lectures in this field. Now I want to ask you once more if you know with certainty that you have heard this lecture by Dr. Holzloehner?
A: According to the entire situation I must answer this question in the affirmative because the lecture of Holzloehner took place amongst a whole series of lectures about freezing and this meeting took place already in winter. It was from the 30th of November until the 3rd of December, and for me it was the important or one of the most important problems, and therefore in my opening speech and also in the discussions, I have directed and appealed to them and have warned them that they were to do everything in order to avoid, in the course of the winter, that we should again get into such a situation as in the winter of 1941 or 42. For this reason, and because of the importance of the problem, I consider it certain that I have attended the lecture.
Q: Could it also be seen from the lecture that experiments were carried out on human beings?
A: I cannot remember the lecture exactly anymore, but when I look at the report then it shows what I have already previously stated, that research was being carried out on animals and on human beings, and to the participants who are informed to a certain extent there cannot have been any doubt, and perhaps this has been mentioned in the detailed lecture that Holzloehner has collected his experience in actual sea emergencies and that was at the Atlantic Coast.
Q: Therefore you say that the lecture had to convey the impression to the listener who knew Holzloehner that he had made his experiments on pilots who had fallen into the sea and who had been turned over to him f or treatment—-
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I don't think it is necessary to lead the witness quite that much. Now, he asked the witness a direct question and he gave him an answer which I think was understandable by all of us, and I think this is quite improper for him then to restate the matter the way he has done it and put words in the mouth of this witness that he didn't utter.
DR. NELTE: May it please the Tribunal, I had the impression that in the course of the interrogation by Hr. McHaney that this problem had not been explained as clearly as I would like to have it clarified for the understanding of the Tribunal -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal overrules the objection to the question. You may proceed.
Q: Mr. McHaney has shown you port of the testimony of the former Generaloberstabsarzt Hippe, which the latter gave in the course of the Milch trial. I do not have the record of its presentation nor the record of the testimony. As far as I can remember Generaloberstabsarzt Hippke stated that you had been his superior when he was medical inspector of the Luftwaffe; that is the time prior to the 1st of January 1944. In the decree of 1942 or the service regulation which was issued in connection with it, is the word "superior" contained with record to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A: Neither the word "superior" not any authority to issue orders is mentioned.
Q: In the time when you were Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and when Hippke was Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, was there any cause to awaken the impression with Dr. Hippke that he was your subordinate?
A: No, and I believe that if Hippke had been asked at the time, or if somebody had told him that I was his superior, then he would have refuted this loudly and clearly.
Q: The prosecution has handed to you Document 1490 — may it please the Tribunal, I do not know the exact exhibit number. It is a letter which the Chief of the Army armament and Chief if the Reserve Army addressed to Reich Marshal Coering. It deals with a question of your entry into the council of the Reich Research Council, and the suggestion to admit Dr. Schreiber into the Reich Research Council. May it please the Tribunal, this document NO-1490is exhibit 450. The prosecution believes that the farmer Oberstabsarzt Dr. Schreiber had in a certain way been the liaison officer of the Army Medical Inspectorate to the Reich Research Council and that he had been suggested by you for this position; is that correct?
A: At this time I cannot exactly describe the incident anymore as it occurred at that time. In any case this was in accordance with a wish of the Commander-in-Chief of the Reserve Army, that the Wehrmacht should be represented in this Reich Research Council.
Q: What I want to know is, if the requests which are contained in the letter of 9 December 1942 were both disapproved?
A: Yes, both of them were disapproved.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, this is is shown by the letter of 21 October 1942 which was a also presented by the prosecution but which, however, has not been read.
Q: In the letter of the Chief of the General Wehrmacht Office to Professor Handloser, of 21 October 1942, the following is stated, and I quote a sentence:
The Reich Marshal told me he has disapproved a further extension of the Reich Research Council.
And now I am asking you — Dr. Schreiber, who, as is known was the Commissioner of the Reich Research Council for the combating of epidemics, was he suggested by you after this disapproval?
A: No, Schreiber came to me spontaneously and informed me that the offer had been made to him.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I don't think this is the proper time to argue the interpretation of documents, but I just want to state that the excerpt from the letter which has just been read by Dr. Nelte certainly constitutes no rejection on the part of the Reich Research Council to the nomination of Schreiber by the Army Medical Inspectorate. The letter which I didn't read concerns itself only with the appointment of Handloser. It is a personal letter to Handloser stating that he has not been appointed to the presiding council of the Research Council as he wanted to be, and that's all it says. It makes no reference to Schreiber and it can't be tortured in the meaning that Schreiber and the other recommendations made by Froehm were turned down by Goring.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I believe that I am in agreement with Mr. McHaney that I can leave the interpretation and judging of this letter to you. It is stated clearly and explicitly that the Reich Marshal fundamentally disapproved a further extension of the Reich Research Council.
Q: Witness, the prosecution, has asked you the following question: Is not the collection of human beings and material for research purposes a task which was common to all branches of the Wehrmacht? In the decree of 1942, personnel and material coordination is mentioned, and I am now asking you, did this personnel and material assignment of coordination also refer to the medical officers which were to be assigned research jobs?
A: That is not specifically mentioned at any place and there has never been any special discussion on that subject.
Q: I now want to ask you if, as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, you might have wanted to, or if you were ordered to, engage in research, would it have been necessary for you that in our capacity as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service you should have had a department like with the Wehrmacht Medical Inspector? Did you have such a department, for science and research?
A: No, I had a man there who took care of the medical, scientific and research matters. I had such a man, but he had nothing whatsoever to do with research.
Q: That is a question which I specifically wanted to know of you. After all, money is needed for research purposes. As chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service did you have any funds allotted for research?
A: I did not have any money at all. Whenever something of that kind came up I had to turn to the GUI. I did not have any funds available for research at all, but the money was for the branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q: With regard to the lecture of professor Dr. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer the prosecution has stated the following — I beg your pardon — you have stated in connection with this, all the people who attended did not object specifically to the statements which were made by Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer, at least nothing came to your knowledge about that subject.
Mr. McHaney has stated this fact can be interpreted in several ways, either as you want it, that those statements did not cause any specific interest, or as the prosecution has stated, that all the persons who were present did not object to them because they already accepted that fact as natural; that concentration camp inmates should be used for medical experiments.
Now, I am asking you the following question; is there not yet another possibility which shows your actual nonintervention and your failure to take any action?
A: Well, this could only be in my own person. That I did not understand in that way.
Q: Well, not only you but also the others. I now want to ask you in the formulation of the lecture or what Professor Gebhardt stated, could there be anything contained in it as far as the manner of the execution was concerned, which might show that you and the others -
A: That is what I have repeatedly stated here, that in my opinion the formulation and the description and the explanations were presented in such a manner that no reasons for objections existed.
Q: Therefore, there is the third possibility that something which might have diverted from the ordinary might have been presented, but that the manner in which it was presented conveyed the impression with the listeners that this was not irregular.
A: That is quite possible, yes.
Q: The Prosecutor has now mentioned bacteriological warfare once more, and he has reported a question which was also presented to Professor Brandt, the question of an order by Keitel. Now I want to state expressively the reference to Document1309 which in itself was not presented to you leaves the necessity for a question open, namely, a question how the following sentence is to be interpreted. On page 1 the file mark states, and I quotes: "The Wehrmacht by request of General Field Marshal Keitel is not to participate in a responsible manner in the experiments because experiments would also be carried out on human beings."
Does this formulation at all show that an order was issued in that direction by Keitel?
A: No.
Q: Where did Kliewe work?
A: At Berlin at the Military Medical Academy.
Q: And where was his agency as the Blitzableiter specialist?
A: In the Armament Department 9.
Q: Therefore, what did he have to do with the Medical Inspectorate?
A: As medical officer, he, first of all, belonged to the Medical Inspectorate organizationally, and then he was a good general hygienist.
He was the head of an investigating office in Germany, and he was not fully occupied there, and he was also occupied with other matters.
Q: I only want to determine here who was his superior with regards to the work.
A: That was Weapons Office 9, the Armament Office 9.
Q: In the cross-examination the Document NO-155 has been handed to you. It was not presented to you, but it was used as a basis for your examination. The Prosecutor has mentioned the name of Professor Wirth, and he has stated that Dr. Wirth had suggested that experiments should be carried out on concentration camp inmates at Neuengammem, that you must have had knowledge of them.
I would like to read you the sentence which has given the reason for this question in Document 154: "A third series of experiments was discussed with the representative of the "lost" group according to the suggestion which Oberstarzt Dr. Loeb made on the occasion of the discussion with the Reich Commissioner on the 4th December, 1944." This is a sentence suitable to give course to the conclusion that Wirth said that this experimental series should be carried out at Neuengammem or at any other concentration camp.
A: No, he did not say that with any other word.
Q: Therefore, it is only a conclusion from the measures which President Konrich drew from the discussion on the fourth of December, 1944.
DR. NELTE: May it please the Tribunal, I shall have the Professor, Wirth, who is located in the prison here — I shall give him an affidavit, and if the Prosecution wants to know more about the affidavit, then he can be available as a witness at any time.
Q: Now in conclusion I want to come to the typhus question which has occupied so much time in the interrogation by the Prosecution. I believe that we can be grateful that the Prosecution has presented the last four documents because they really give a certain clarification with regard to the question of the typhus vaccine production and distribution.
Is it correct for me to say that the big interest in the typhus question — and I want to say generally — consisted in the fact how can typhus be combatted effectively?
A: Yes, by all means.
Q: What is the most natural and the most important means of combatting them?
A: Delousing, that is, combatting the lice.
Q: When towards the end of 1941 the danger existed, did you also have typhus vaccines available?
A: There was the Eyer Vaccine, the Weigl Vaccine and also the chicken egg yolk vaccine.
Q: Wasn't there also a Giroud Vaccine?
A: I do not know if it existed at that time, but I assume that it may have existed then.
Q: Was egg yolk vaccine already produced at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Now if you have effective vaccines in various types, will it be wrong to discuss the research problem for the time being instead of devoting time to the production of vaccines?
A: That is correct with one exception. In the case of the Weigl Vaccine which was excellent, the production could not be raised over a certain amount, and with the egg yolk vaccine we had difficulty in obtaining the eggs because we would have needed hundreds of thousands of eggs. Already we had to look for something which could be produced more easily.
Q: Does it vary from the urgent problem of trying to raise the production of vaccines?
A: No, that is the same thing.
Q: I assume that the documents which the Prosecution has presented confirm your statement. You have stated in the course of my direct examination: "I had to warn the people at home; I had to tell them that I could not furnish them any vaccine from Cracow."
A: That is stated there.
Q: And this shews what is also contained in these documents, that is, if you recognize the danger clearly, then you must produce more and then you intend to do this through the industry. I, therefore, see in these documents which have been submitted and which I assume you confirm completely -
A: Yes.
Q: — and which you also recognize as correct today, that I have to ask you the questions now: your worry and your urging for an increase in the production of vaccine, does this mean the necessity of the knowledge now several or individual scientists actually occupied themselves in solving this problem?
A: It has nothing to do with each other.
Q: Now was it shown by your letter and also from the document about the discussion of 29 December 1941 that on this day the typhus research problem was discussed?
A: No, the vaccines were discussed. That is the vaccine situation.
Q: You even claim at this time that a second conference took place on the 29th of December, 1941, in which you did not discuss anything with the circle of the people mentioned in the Ding diary?
A: Yes, I have stated that clearly.
DR. NELTE: Well, I do not have any additional questions. May it please the Tribunal, the witness, Wuerfler, can be called at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received a certificate from Captain C. J. Russell, Medical Corps, United States Army, stating that in his opinion it would be advisable that the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt, be excused from attendance in Court during the balance of this afternoon.
Defendant Rudolf Brandt will, therefore, be excused from attendance in Court for the balance of this afternoon. The Secretary-General will file the certificate received from Dr. Russell.
The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minutes.
(A recess was taken.)