1947-02-19, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 19 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1. Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
It appears to the Tribunal that Tribunal Number 2, which is now in session trying Case No. 2, desires the presence of the defendant Rudolf Brandt as a witness before that Tribunal this morning. The defendant Rudolf Brandt will be excused this morning at the opening of the morning recess and in view of the certificate filed by the orison physician yesterday defendant Brandt will be excused from further attendance before this Tribunal for the balance of this day.
Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness on the stand.
DR. PAUL WUERFLER — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness on the stand is reminded that he is still under oath.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q: Witness, during your examination yesterday you answered the question in the negative which was to the effect that the agency of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services had authority to give orders with reference to the research system of the individual branches of the Wehrmacht a Waffen SS, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: In supplementation I have to ask you, Did the office of the chief of Wehrmacht Medical Services have any official supervision?
A: No, not in accordance to that.
Q: Now, in this connection I must show you a. document which was submitted by the prosecution here yesterday. This is a letter coming from Robert Koch Institute on the 21st of January 1943. This Document NO 1318. In this letter it says regarding typhus vaccines for armed forces:
The Chief of the Medical Wehrmacht Services, according to the letter of the 11th of January of this year which I am attaching in copy, has approached the cities which are producing typhus vaccines and asked them not to send this vaccine to the individual branches of the Wehrmacht and so on, but only to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services or to his plenipotentiary.
What is your attitude to this letter?
A: The letter that you just quoted from the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services is really a part taken out of a larger frame and it deals with central distribution of products. The material coordination was only possible when all the needs of the Wehrmacht branches were directed to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services. It was necessary that from this agency the necessary distribution had to result. In order to gain a survey about what was available any buying of quantity on the Part of the Wehrmacht branches had to be stopped.
That is why the Ministry of Economics end the Ministry of Armament had to approach the industries which were producing medical equipment and had to issue a decree that such orders were only to be executed when they emanated from the Chief Medical Supply Office, the office which was working on these matters for us. All other orders had to be sent to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services for investigation and they did not have the authority to deliver upon them. In order to distribute the vaccines in a just manner, that is, according to the urgency and the need of the Wehrmacht branches, was really the purpose of the letter that you just mentioned.
Q: It can be seen from that it was one of the tasks of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services to distribute materials. That includes vaccines.
A: Yes.
Q: On the strength of that do you know the cities where productions came from, that is, the factories?
A: Yes, they were known to the Chief Medical Supply Office.
Q: Do you know whether among these suppliers, excepting private industry or army institutes, that is, Cracow, there were any SS institutes?
A: I know nothing of that.
Q: This right of distribution and the relationship of the suppliers to the Chief Medical Supply Office contained the authority to control the suppliers, that is to say, the factories?
A: No, we only had to check on the production, the amount of the production.
Q: I ask whether you, yourself, or representatives of yours were active in this work. For instance, I.G. Farben could send people there in order to control how they went about producing vaccines?
A: No, we had no right of control.
Q: So, I understand you correctly if I say that these measures of gaining the vaccines in order to distribute them justly is one of the typical cases which the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services had; namely, to distribute this vaccine mutually for all Wehrmacht branches?
A: Yes, this concept is quite correct.
Q: Does this manner of your activity relate at all to the research systems?
A: No, this was a measure of supply.
Q: With reference to a question which the prosecutor presented here yesterday during the cross examination, I have to ask you: The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services as such, did he have any authority with reference to the installation of works for typhus vaccines?
A: Basically, no. Here we were also concerned with the question of the release of personnel and the urgency of getting material and these were the things that we were approached about by the firms. Whenever we had any personnel available among other medical personnel, we could, of course, release them and we could sponsor any urgency request on the part of the industries.
Q: Well, then, is it correct to say that you — that is, the Chief of Wehrmacht Medical Services — had no decision over the question when such a factory was to be erected, but that you only had to be listened to since medical service questions were touched upon?
A: He had no right of authority and he did not have to be heard under all circumstances. When the firms wished, they could do these things on their own initiative, but they needed our assistance and they wanted our assistance and we could sponsor their wishes.
Q: Could this procedure extend to institutes in the framework of the Wehrmacht branches?
A: That would have been a circumvention because the Wehrmacht brance were really independent.
They had their own contingent of material.
Q: In a special case the matter seems to have been different. It was laid down in a letter on the part of the Medical Inspectorate of the air for that in the case of an institute which belonged to this branch of the Chief the Wehrmacht Medical Services had to be heard. Did you ever hear of any such procedure?
A: I remember no concrete case.
Q: I am speaking about this special case.
A: No, I do not remember such an application. Of course, when the Wehrmacht needed our assistance, then, of course, they approached us.
Q: You mean, only that?
A: Yes, only that.
Q: Did you attend the meetings of the consulting physicians?
A: Yes, I attended them in 1942, in the spring of 1943, and the spring of 1944.
Q: In May 1943 a lecture was held by Dr. Ding with reference to typhus. Did you listen to this lecture?
A: No, I did not hear it and I do not know his name. I have no imagination about it whatsoever.
Q: During that speech an incident occurred. Professor Rose uttered some misgivings and I am asking you, do you know officially or personally, I mean during the recesses or during the evenings or whenever the participants gathered, that any such protest was made by Professor Rose?
A: Nothing ever became known to me about that protest.
Q: Do you know whether Professor Handloser directly received any report about that?
A: No, I know nothing about it.
Q: During that same meeting did you listen to the lecture of Professor Gebhardt and Fischer? It was a lecture about special experiments with reference to sulfanilamide.
A: I did not listen to that lecture because I was interested in lecture regarding psychiatry.
Q: Did you ever gain any knowledge official or unofficially of this lecture which attracted attention?
A: No, nothing is known to me of that.
Q: Didn't Professor Handloser speak to you after this lecture and discuss this matter with you?
A: No, that was not the case.
Q: Do you know whether from any side complaints were made with your agency about the contents of this lecture?
A: No, according to my knowledge no such complaints were made.
Q: Do you still remember what the situation was in the Medical Inspectorate during the middle of May, that is, shortly before these lectures?
A: Yes, the situation was very tense. In January we had these losses Stalingrad and in April we had severe losses near Tunis. We could — I mean the Medical Service of the entire Wehrmacht considerable physicians were lost. According to my recollection we lost 400 in Stalingrad and about 300-350 in Africa and we had great worry about getting substitutes for then. We had to take physicians away from the civilian sector if we wanted them.
Q: So that was a time of great worry for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services?
A: Yes, no doubt.
Q: And, his time was taken up to a considerable degree in order to car* through measures which would lead to the dealing with these emergency situations. Were the manuscripts of the lectures shown to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services — the manuscripts of the lectures during these meeting?
A: No, that was not the case.
Q: Were they presented to him afterwards?
A: No, they were not presented to him afterwards.
Q: Who worked on these lectures?
A: That belonged to the Department of Science and Health at the Medical Inspectorate and they had to go to great efforts to get all these manuscript after the lectures were held.
Q: Now, one final question. For many years you were a collaborator of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services.
Although you were his subordinate, I think I can put the question to you in this connection and I think I have to put the question to you. What is your judgment of Professor Handloser? That is to say, whether from a medical or ethical point of view, do you think him capable of any bad action?
A: Doctor, you will understand that it is difficult for me to make any judgment in the presence of the public and in the presence of my superior but since it has to be I can only say the following: I know Professor Handloser is a warm person with deep feelings, a man who has great faith in his friend and has a very humane way of thinking. I know him as a faithful Catholic Christian who I think utterly incapable to have committed the crimes of which he is here charged. I know him as an educated, skillfully educated physician who always maintained a high level of sciences and who always had interest in the welfare of his sick and wounded, and also had a high ethical concept of his profession. He is an energetic upright soldier with a high sense of humor and duty. On the whole he is a man who because of his medical and humane values was respected by his medical officers, by civilian physicians, including the scientific representatives, and by all physicians abroad who knew him. His position as a high medical officer he gained because of his efficiency. He gained it during a clean military career and he does not have to thank this position to some political machinations.
DR. NELTE: I thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination of this witness on the part of any defense counsel?
DR. FLEMING (Counsel for the Defendant, Mrugowsky):
BY DR. FLEMING:
Q: Witness, you stated yesterday that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service kept his staff very small, intentionally small. Did the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service in his sphere of work give orders to the Army Medical Inspectorate when his staff had no expert far the questions which may have come up?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Whenever what occurred, to whom was such a representative responsible for the problems with which he had been commissioned? Was he responsible to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service from whom he received the order or was he responsible to his real chief, the Army Medical Inspector?
A: He was responsible to the man who gave him the order, that is, the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, yes.
Q: Such a man would have to make reports. Were these reports sent to his own Chief, the Army Medical Inspector or were they sent to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A: The reports went to the Chief Staff of the Army Medical Inspectorate, to me as Chief of Staff of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.
DR. FLEMING: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination of this witness, on the part of any defense counsel? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, you have testified here on direct examination that the reason for the Fuehrer Decree of 1942 was to preserve personnel, material, and so forth. Now I ask you —
INTERPRETER: The witness hasn't heard your question.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: I said, you have testified here on direct examination that the basis reason for the Fuehrer decree of 1942 was to preserve personnel and material?
A: May I ask you to repeat the question once more?
Q: During the course of your direct examination by defense counsel you have testified that the reason behind the issuance of the Fuehrer decree of 28 July 1942, was to preserve personnel and material by way of proper coordination Now, I ask you, isn't the utilization of material and personnel in the field of medical research a common problem of all branches of the Wehrmacht, which required a coordinated and planned direction?
A: In the decree of 1942, the official regulation of research was not mentioned at all in the tasks for the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Consequently, we could not deal with it.
Q: Isn't it true, doctor, that the Wehrmacht had various research tasks being performed where personnel and material were being used in the course of this research work, whatever it may be, isn't it true, that the problem did exist of coordinating the work so that you would not have a duplication of effort and so that you could carry out the basic purpose of this decree, that is, to preserve personnel and material?
A: The Prosecutor is right in so far as such an aim would have been high desirable, and that is why in the new regulation of 1944, we included this subject in the official regulation.
Q: Now, you stated that the office if the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht was quite small. Perhaps, it could not be concerned with coordinating medical research. Now, didn't Handloser have all facilities of the Army Medical Inspectorate at his disposal for that purpose, and didn't he in fact accomplish coordination of the Medical Research to the last degree through these meetings you referred to, of the consulting physicians at the Military Medical Academy?
A: At the meeting of the Military Medical Academy this was dealt with by the medical senate of the Army and by the scientific senate of the army, and the Inspectors of the other Wehrmacht branches were invited to these meeting but you cannot call it a regulation of the coordination of research.
Q: Well now Handloser did in fact have the facilities of the Army Medical Inspectorate at his disposal, did he not?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Then it would be incorrect to state that the facilities at his disposal as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Services were small?
A: Would your repeat the last part of your question?
Q: I said it would be incorrect to state that the Chief of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht had little or nothing to do with it, in so far as medical research is concerned, in as much as Handloser had all facilities of the Medical Inspectorate at his disposal?
A: He only had the installations of the army in his capacity as army medical inspector.
Q: The Army was the largest branch of the Wehrmacht, was it not?
A: Yes, it was the largest branch of the Wehrmacht.
Q: Now you said, Doctor, that the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht — you have testified here, Doctor, that the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht received research assignments from the branches of the Wehrmacht from 1943 on. Who directed that that procedure be followed? Did you hear my question.
A: I said yesterday that approximately starting from 1943, copies of the reports of the Wehrmacht branches about research assignments were sent to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service for his acknowledgment.
Q: Who directed that these reports be sent to the Office of the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht?
A: This was done voluntarily without being asked for by the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.
Q: Well, now, doctor, what was the purpose of Handloser's office received these reports of research work?
A: I said they were copies. The Luftwaffe, for instance, sent the original to the Department of Science and Research with the Commissioner General, and they probably told themselves that if we are going to report this to the Commissioner General, it maybe advisable that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service receive a copy too.
Q: Who was this Commissioner General you refer to?
A: The Commissioner General for the Medical and Health Service, Professor Brandt.
Q: Did Handloser's office ever receive any reports on medical experiment
A: I don't know about that? I only know about these copies that I mentioned yesterday.
Q: Then you would state that in the course of your official duties you never became aware of any medical experiments on human beings in concentration camps?
A: No, none at all.
Q: Doctor, if I understood you correctly, when Dr. Nelte was interrogation you in connection with your biographical data, weren't you first chief of the staff of the Medical Service to the Luftwaffe, that is, from the 1st of October 1944, until 1 September 1942, isn't that correct?
A: Your figures are not quite right, from the 1st of October 1941, until the 31 of August, 1942, I was Chief of the Staff with the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe.
Q: Who was Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe at that time, doctor?
A: Generaloberstabsarzt Hippke.
Q: Now in your capacity as Chief of Staff to Hippke, I assume your duties were similar to these as Chief of Staff to Handloser in his capacity as Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht, in that anything that Hippke would have had knowledge of, you would have knowledge of, is that true?
A: No, this isn't quite correct, Mr. Prosecutor. There was a great deal of difference in the cooperation between Generaloberarzt Hippke and Professor Handloser, whereas according to my knowledge he was always informed by Professor Handloser about his important decisions, no such information was given by Professor Hippke. He acted very independently and the work was made difficult since he did not inform his collaborators sufficiently.
Q: Now, during the course of your duties as Chief of Staff to Hipke, were you ever cognizant of the fact that experimentation was being conducted on concentration carp inmates?
A: No, never. Up to this trial I didn't know any such experiments were carried through.
Q: You certainly must have known Dr. Rascher, a Luftwaffe doctor, didn't you?
A: I didn't know Dr. Rasher, only from the newspapers did I hear his name once more.
Q: You never met Dr. Rascher personally?
A: Once I met him personally when I was reminded. We were then concerned about the preparation of a conference at the Secretary of State. I forgot the name.
Q: Did you know Dr. Rascher, the defendant here in this case?
A: Yes, I know Dr. Romberg from the newspaper before the War when he was a collaborator of Dr. Ruff.
Q: You also know Dr. Weltz, I presume?
A: Yes, I know Dr. Weltz too from the meetings.
Q: Doctor, did you ever hear of the high attitude experiments?
A: You mean high altitude experiments with human beings in concentration camps?
Q: Precisely.
A: I haven't heard anything of these.
Q: A few moments ago you mentioned that you met Dr. Rasher during the course of planning or preparing such a meeting at the Secretary of State's office; that is Secretary of State Milch, is it not?
A: Yes, Secretary of State Milch.
Q: Do you remember what day or exact date of this meeting between you and Rasher?
A: I was reminded of the date by a question of defense counsel, but I really didn't know the date before, but I remember the incident once more.
Q: Well, now, Doctor, what took place at that meeting?
A: Well, the meeting should have taken place, and I shall picture the event as it was. That was in September 1942. With the 1st of September I was transferred to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Since my successor had to be trained, and since at that time Generaloberarzt Hipke had to go on leave, I was periodically still active in the Luftwaffe Inspectorate. From this time I remember that I was suddenly called away from my work because of a telephone call. I don't know who called me. I was to report to the secretary of State for the purpose of a discussion. This discussion did not emanate from the Medical Inspectorate, but was ordered by the Secretary of State. I went there by car, that is from my agency to the Aviation Ministry, and in the corridor before the Office of the Secretary of the State I met a few of my acquaintances, and some people I didn't know, and among the people I know I think Dr. Romberg was present.
Q: Dr. Rasher was there also?
A: I wanted to say Dr. Romberg.
Q: Dr. Rasher and Dr. Romberg to other?
A: No, I Don't know Dr. Rasher, I don't know. I asked what was this about, and I learned that a certain Dr. Rasher was to make a report. No further details were given to me. The beginning of that meeting was postponed since the State Secretary didn't appear when he was expected. Since I was taken out of my work, my double work, I became very inpatient and I asked Dr. Rasher, whom I hadn't known before, for the information of what this whole thing was about. Dr. Rasher refused to give me any information, and he said that he had a special order by the Secretary of State. Because of the fact a younger medical officer refused to give me that information I was very angry and left this group, and I said something of that nature, "if you have any secrets deal with them yourself." Upon that I returned to my office.
Q: In the course of Rasher's report did you hear it mentioned that a film was to be shown?
A: Yes, a film may have been mentioned.
Q: Did you see that film, Doctor?
A: I don't remember having seen the film, because I left before the entire thing started.
Q: Was Dr. Benzinger there, is that a familiar name to you?
A: Dr. Benzinger, oh, yes, I know him from aviation medicine.
Q: Is the name D-o-r-i-n-g, During familiar to you?
A: No, I don't know him.
Q: Is the name Vorwald, V-o-r-w-a-l-d familiar to you?
A: No, I don't know him.
Q: Is the name Christensen familiar to you?
A: Yes, I know the name.
Q: Doctor, I want you to think, are you sure you didn't see that film in the RLM?
A: I am quite sure, because up to this point I saw no films at all which were made in the concentration camps.
Q: No, Doctor, I have here a document which I shall read to you; I don't have the German, for the benefit of the translators. This is Document, NO 224, which has been previously admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit No. 76. his is a document signed by the defendant, Dr. Romberg. It is a report of the September 11th meeting in 1942, concerning a report which was to be submitted to the Secretary of State Milch on that date. I will read the report, Doctor.
On September 11, 1942—
Do you remember now, were you present while any film was being shown, Doctor? Do I have to dispense with reading the document?
A: I ask you to read the document.
BY MR. HARDY:
On September 11, 1942 at 9:45 o'clock Stabsarzt Dr. Rasher and Dr. Romberg met, according to telephonic and oral agreements, with Col. Pendele, in the ante-chamber of the Secretary of State. We were informed that the Secretary of State had ordered this conference at the present stage, in the course of which a report on experiments concerning "rescue from great heights" was to be made, and the motion picture concerning these experiments was to be shown. The gentlemen waiting in the antechamber of the Secretary of State and in the corridor (most of them from the experimental staff) were informed that previous to the conference a motion picture was to be shown, so that all went to the motion picture room on the 5th floor. Here quite a large number of people were already present, so that 30 to 40 persons were there in all. Among them were — we know some of them personally — some officers, medical at engineer officers, whose presence surprised us in view of the top secret nature of the motion picture and of the experiments. No checking of the persons present was done, nor was there an attendance list.
As after a short time of waiting, the Secretary of State had not come the motion picture was shown, without giving us an opportunity for preliminary or explanatory remarks. During the intermission between the two parts of the motion picture, Dr. Rascher referred once more to the strict obligation of secrecy ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS. After completion of the showing of the motion picture — the Secretary of State had not come, as he had been summoned to the Reich Marshal — the persons present still talked a little while about the motion picture, on which occasion loss interest was shown in the subject itself than in the place of the experiments and the individuals who had been experimented on. After this period of time, during which we were neither called upon to make any statements whatsoever, nor were we, considering the great forum and the absence of the Secretary of State, included to give any reports, the greatest part of these present went back to the development conference while Oberstarzt Wuerfler,—that is a familiar name, isn't it?—"Oberstarzt Prof. Kolk, Stabsarzt Bruehl and Government Councilor Benzinger asked us for a report in a small medical circle. As, however, the Secretary of State had prohibited any report previous to the fixing of distribution experiments. Oberstarzt Kolk stated that he was willing to report to the Secretary of State our wishes concerning the fixing of distribution and the continuation of the experiments. The motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald.
According to the conference with Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers —
I don't think it is necessary to read any further. This is signed by Dr. Romberg. Now, Doctor, do you still say you didn't see this film in the RLM?
A: I don't remember having seen it. What I stated before happened before that time.
Q: Did you, as a matter of fact, after having seen that film join a circle with Dr. Benzinger and several others discussing the merits of the film?
A: No. I left this group in anger, as I said before.
Q: Despite this report here of Dr. Romberg you deny having seen the film, Doctor?
A: I haven't seen the film.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for the Defendant Handloser)
Q: The prosecutor just said that just in the field of research by coordinating various research offices one could save mainly personnel; may I ask you as scientist is there a field where one could not save personnel by way of coordination and I mean the field of research?
A: If something has to result from research, then research has to have freedom and one only has to exchange results.
Q: In order to give you an example, for instance, if five persons are carring on research work about a very important problem, then you Think that it was the expedient task of the leader of such a research system to have one research worker, in place of these five, who would work on this problem himself?
A: The leader could only do that when convinced that the four others are not qualified. Since research workers always think they are the best, it would probably be very difficult to declare objectively who the best one is.
Q: The second question, the Prosecutor believes that Professor Handloser, since he was army inspector, had two offices; the so-called Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and Army Medical Inspectorate in order to deal with his tasks. Is it correct that everyone of the agencies had their own circle of tasks?
A: That is correct.
Q: Is it correct that even if there was the combination of one person doing two jobs, as it was the case here, that the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service could make use of the personnel, material, etc., of the Army Medical Inspectorate for the tasks of the Wehrmacht Medical Service?
A: Both of these activities had to be differentiated.
Q: Where there independent chiefs of staff for both of these agencies?
A: Yes, naturally.
Q: Did not these chiefs of staff see to it that the interests of the two agencies were divided from one another?
A: Yes, they saw that a very clear division was made and the tendency of both up to a certain point were contrary to each agency.
Q: Yes, you said that yesterday. Am I correct if I say there was even tension between these two agencies working in the same building?
A: Yes you can call them official tensions even if they did not have any personal effect.
Q: Now, at the end, I should like to ask you with reference to Mr. Hardy's question; is it true that you went to the meeting at the Aviation Ministry in your capacity as Chief of Staff of Medical Service of the Air Force?
A: Yes, that is where the tension was on power and authority; as I was not the chief any longer.
Q: But, you were still practically the chief and you were not yet working with Professor Handloser since he only came from the Ukraine at the end of September in order to start his office; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct, as for as the person of Professor Handloser is concerned; but I partly already worked at the new office.
Q: For the purpose of training-
A: I also had to train my collaborators and successors.
Q: Did you inform Professor Handloser about this matter of the Aviation Ministry?
A: No, certainly not — not at all. This was just a matter which came up suddenly and then disappeared.
BY DR. KRAUSS (Counsel for the Defendant Rostock):
Q: Witness, you stated that the individual Wehrmacht branches received copies of the research assignments, which they had delivered, or rather sent them to the chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service and that the original of these research assignments was sent to the Department of Science and Research. Witness, I am now asking you is it not a fact that the original of any research assignments went to the research worker concerned and that the Department of Science and Research only received a copy of these assignments; how is it that you have a different knowledge than that?
A: I must correct my statements that I made before; what you say is correct the original was certainly sent to the man concerned, the man to whom the work was assigned; this means that the department itself received a copy and we received another.
A: Thank you, I have no further questions.
BY DR. MARX (Counsel for the Defendant Dr. Becker-Freysing):
Q: Witness, you stated before that during a certain period of time you were Chief of Staff with the Medical Inspector of the Air Force, that was from the first of October, 1941 until the 31st of August in 1942; I will now ask you who was directly subordinate to you in your position?
A: There were two department chiefs; one chief of the Medical Inspectorate Generalarzt Marzius, an the chief of the Organizational Department, Generalstabsarzt Liebermann and then there was an independent group of pharmacists, there was a domestic group and a registration group and I think that is all.
Q: What position did the Defendant Dr. Becker-Freysing hold at that time with the Inspector of the Air Force.
A: Dr. Becker-Freysing was the advisory counsel for aviation medicine.
Q: And who was the real departmental expert for aviation medicine?
A: I think it was Stabsarzt Professor Antoni that was with the Medical Department.
Q: I now come back to this conference of 11 September, 1942; did you speak to Dr. Becker-Freysing about this affair?
A: No, certainly not, since any information was refused to me, I had nothing that I could speak to him about.
Q: You say that you know nothing about high altitude experiments, which were carried out by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg?
A: No, I had no knowledge of that at all.
Q: Didn't Professor Hippke tell you anything about that?
A: No, Professor Hippke told me nothing about it.
Q: Did Dr. Becker-Freysing, in his capacity as advisory counsel for Aviation Medicine, send you any letters for decision or signature, or did he present any reports to you about the execution of any such experiments in Dachau?
A: The question is already answered by my previous answer to your last question, but I will repeat that I never received such reports and such matter were never presented to me by Dr. Becker-Freysing.
Q: Yes, witness, that is correct, but it could be possible that you heard something by way of a report or lecture?
A: No, that is not correct.
Q: Did anything become known to you about cold experiments, which were carried out by Dr. Rascher and Professor Holzloehner in the concentration camp at Dachau?
A: No, I know nothing about that.
Q: But you were present during that meeting in 1942; were you not, in Nurnberg?
A: No, I was not.
Q: You were only present during this meeting of the consulting physicians?
A: But that occurred much later.
Q: But I mean this meeting in Nurnberg. Were you present?
A: No, I was not.
Q: Did you speak to Hippke about this question regarding Holzloehner and Rascher, or did Hippke speak to you?
A: No, never.
Q: Was the name of Rascher ever mentioned between you and your chief after September, 1942?
A: I am just telling you that at first the name was unknown to me. It was not mentioned after that, and, I forget about it entirely until I was asked about it again, and only by reading the press it came back to my memory very slowly.
Q: So this was really a very unimportant affair for you?
A: Yes.
DR. MARX: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions to put to this witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Paul Wuerfler may be excused, there being no further examination of this witness.
Does counsel for defendant Handloser desire that Dr. Bernhard Schmidt be called as a witness?
The marshal will bring in Bernhard Schmidt, a witness for defendant Handloser.
BERNHARD SCHMIDT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SIEBRING: Raise your right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SIEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Handloser):
Q: Witness, would you please state your first and surname?
A: Dr. Bernhard Schmidt.
Q: Would you please pause between my question and your answer and try to speak slowly so as to enable the interpreters to keep up. Where were you born and when?
A: I was born on the 20th of May, 1906, in Magdeburg.
Q: Would you please describe your educational career very shortly?
A: I first went to elementary school in Berlin. Then from 1913 to 1925 I was in Mainz. I was educated at the secondary school there. I made my matriculation in 1925 in Mainz. Then I studied medicine and natural history in Giessen, Kreishaltung in Munich. I made my state examination in medicine in the year 1932 in Munich. Afterwards I made my doctor examination and then in 1928 I entered the Reichswehr at that time as a student. I had more medical education in the army hospital in Stettin in 1932. That was up until 1934.
From 1934 to 1936 I went to Kuestrin. In 1936, that is from 1936 to 1939, I received education as a hygienist at the University of Goettingen. In the meantime I was detailed for half a year to Japan and China as medical officer. In 1939 I was a hygienist at Muenster, Westphalia. From the beginning of the war I was assigned as an army hygienist. That was from 1939 to 1940. In 1940 I was shortly assigned to the army physician for about eight weeks as a hygienist. From 1940 to 1944 I became a hygienist of the Army Medical Inspectorate at Berlin, and from the fall of 1944 I was assigned to the front as hygienist and consulting hygienist. I was assigned to the Balkans for a short period of time.
From December, 1944, I was imprisoned by the Americans. As a prisoner-of-war I was for one year the chief of a general hospital for German P.W.'s in France, and at the end of March I was released from prisoner-of-war activity. Since October of last year I was active at the University of Frankfurt as departmental chief with university and was nominated as a lecturer.
Q: Then you were within the sphere of office of Professor Handloser from 1940 to 1944?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: What positions did you held in the Amy Medical Inspectorate?
A: I was a hygienist in the Army Medical Inspectorate and group lead in the department of Science and Health Guidance.
Q: What was your department?
A: I represented the department of hygiene.
Q: Would you please picture to the Tribunal your sphere of work as a hygienist in that department.
A: I had to deal with all questions which referred to the sphere of hygiene. For instance, nourishment, housing, hygiene accommodations, clothing combat of epidemics; then the equipment of the bacteriological testing station scientific questions in the sphere of bacteriology and serology. I did not have to deal with questions of troop medicine and prisoner-of-war medicine, for which there were special departments.
Q: What was the relationship of your department to the institutes of the Army and the other Wehrmacht branches?
A: We had a few institutes of the army with which we were in connection. For instance, the Military Medical Academy, the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research in Cracow, then the Army Mountain Troop School in St. Johann.
Q: Was there any official relationship to institutes of the SS and Waffen SS?
A: No.
Q: Did you know the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS?
A: I knew that such an institute existed, but I did not know it.
Q: You mean you had no direct official connections to that institution. But you know Professor Mrugowsky?
A: Yes.
Q: When and at what occasion was there any contact between Professor Mrugowsky and your agency?
A: A number of SS formations were subordinated to the army at the front, and therefore questions arose occasionally which concerned these formations which were subordinated to the army, that is, a question of nourishment, combat of epidemics, housing, etc. These were the same questions which concerned us, too, and that was only concerned with units of the SS subordinate to the army.
Q: Do you know the Institute for Military Science with the Ahnenerbe?
A: No, I don't even know the name.
Q: Do you know the Institute for Virus and Typhus Research at Buchenwald?
A: No, I don't know that any such institute existed.
Q: Now what was the situation regarding the question of typhus-typhus which played a particular part in the combat of epidemics? That is one of the concerns that you had. Do you know from the end of 1941 anything which deals with conferences regarding the typhus questions, or did you yourself deal with such conferences?
A: Around that time we generally had great concern regarding the vaccine production. We had our own institute, the Typhus Institute at Cracow, which was producing vaccines for us. But in addition, we had to furnish vaccines to other Wehrmacht branches. We received only relatively small amounts of vaccines from industry, and that was the Bearing Works at Marburg. We received some from the state institute for experimental therapy at Frankfurt-on-Main, but these amounts were not large enough to suffice for all branches of the Wehrmacht. Therefore we were discussing increase of production on frequent occasions.
We only used vaccines which were known to us to be effective. In spite of the emergency situation, we rejected a vaccine which was not recognized to be sufficiently effective on the basis of a state investigation. There was one vaccine which came from the Behring Works.
Q: What was the substance of this vaccine?
A: It was a chicken-egg vaccine. Another procedure was carried out and the entire embryo was used. Because of the use of the entire embryo, there is a larger amount of vaccine available. If his vaccine had been valid, we would have brought about an increased production. Unfortunately, that was not the case.
Q: Do I understand you correctly when you say the Behring Works at Marburg had sent typhus vaccine from chicken eggs to the Army?
A: Yes.
Q: In this case you refused the offer of delivery because the typhus vaccine was not effective?
A: No, not sufficiently effective.
Q: How did you find that out?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is now 11 o'clock. The Tribunal will be in recess for a short time.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 1 is in recess for fifteen minute.
(A short recess was taken)