1947-02-19, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please Your Honor, the defendant Rudolf Brandt, having been excused by the Tribunal, is absent for the balance of the day.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of the defendant Rudolf Brandt, pursuant to excuse in order that he may testify before Tribunal 2. The counsel may proceed.
BY DR. SCHMIDT:
Q: Witness, before the recess you said that the typhus danger at the end of 1941 led to the consideration of increasing the production of typhus vaccine. Do you know what Professor Handloser, as Army Medical Inspector, did at this time on this matter?
A: Yes, Professor Handloser said that industry should produce more vaccine. He wanted to incite industry to produce more.
Q: Was this the industry which was already producing typhus vaccine?
A: First it was the industry which was already producing vaccine, and in addition other factories, if possible, were to produce vaccine.
Q: Do you know whether this attitude of Professor Handloser resulted in anything concrete?
A: Yes. The Behring Works had the intention of establishing a new factory in Lwov and they approached the Army, Professor Handloser, for that purpose and wanted to have the Polish Professor Weigl placed at their disposal, who was a specialist on the production of vaccine from lice.
Q: Now, was a factory built by the Behring Works?
A: A new production factory was built in Lwov.
Q: Did this factory have any official connection with the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A: No, it was purely an industrial works. It was not under the Army Medical Inspectorate and it did not have any connections with it.
Q: Did this institute later deliver to the army?
A: I do not know exactly. They were probably only small quantities. As far as I know this factory was essentially to supply the civilian sector.
Q: Was there any other connection that Lwov Institute produced typhus vaccines mentioned, and the name Dr. Haas?
Do you know Dr. Haas?
A: I do not know him personally but I know that he worked at this institute of the Behring Works in Lwov.
Q: Then this institute and Dr. Haas had no relationship to the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A: No relations, no.
Q: Shipments of lice from Lwov have been mentioned here to the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. The prosecution expressed the suspicion that these shipments of lice could have come from the institute of OKH in Cracow. Do you know anything about that?
A: No, if that had been the case I certainly would have learned of it. The Institute would have had to ask the Medical Inspector for approvals.
Q: Do you consider that from the institute in which Professor Eyer worked, that he sent this on his own initiative? Do you consider that possible.
A: That would have been quite impossible.
Q: Now again, back to the question of the vaccine situation at the end of 1941, do you know whether at this time discussions between the various agencies, the various interested agencies took place?
A: At the end of 1941 there were talks, discussions about the vaccine situation.
Q: I have here a document, No. 1315, Exhibit No. 454. It was submitted by the Prosecution yesterday in cross examination of Handloser. I will have this document shown to you ask you when you have looked at it to answer a few questions. Did you know that this discussion took place?
A: Yes, Dr. Scholz told me about it. I myself did not participate in the discussion since I was on leave.
Q: Where was Dr. Scholz?
A: Dr. Scholz was one of the gentlemen of my group and in this case he represented me.
Q: That is if you had not been on leave you would have been there?
A: Yes, I would have been there.
Q: Now will you please look at "B" on page 2? Will you please read it? I do not have a copy here. Will you read it aloud under section "B"?
A: The vaccine now produced by the Behring Works, which is produced from chicken eggs, is to be tested for its effectiveness. For that purpose Dr. Domnitz will get in touch with the SS Ober sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Mrugowsky."
Q: Who was Dr. Domnitz?
A: Dr. Domnitz was a man from the Behring Works in Marburg. As far as I know he was in charge of production.
Q: If you had been shown this file note earlier, would you have noticed anything in this point "B'?
A: No.
Q: What would you have thought it meant, that Dr. Domnitz was to get in touch with Dr. Mrugowsky about an experiment?
A: Dr. Mrugowsky had a hygiene institute and apparently this Behring vaccine was to be tested in this institute.
Q: Was that anything that would have astonished you?
A: No, one can conduct a test at any hygiene institute.
Q: Don't you think that this could have given rise to any suspicion that these might have been experiments on human beings?
A: No, not at all.
Q: Will you please see whether the letter which you have there is marked "secret?"
A: No, it is an open letter, and if any such suspicion had arisen the letter would certainly have been marked secret.
Q: Would you, therefore, consider it impossible for any one who knows nothing at all about Buchenwald, for him to met the idea that there might have been some connection with Buchenwald there?
A: That is quite impossible. There is no reason for any suspicion.
A: Now I must ask you something else about this document. You see it is a discussion in which apparently important people took part, Professor Gildemeister, and Hudicke, and in any case not, I may say, little people, more or less important people, now do you consider it likely that on the same day in which this discussion took place in the Reich Ministry of the Interior that there was already or still a discussion on the same question at which Professor Handloser, Professor Reiter, State Secretary Conti, and so forth and so forth, important personalities participated?
A: That is very unlikely. Such a discussion or discussions would have been prepared for us a matter of course, and invitations are issued a few days before hand. Then there would never be two important discussions of important people who had a great deal of work at this time. There would never be two such discussions on the same day.
Q: It would have been possible that two weeks or one week before there was some discussion of a different group of people?
A: That is quite possible, yes.
Q: But it would probably have been impossible on the same day?
A: Yes, I consider that impossible.
Q: Do you know that Professor Handloser took part in a different discussion and with a larger number of people on the typhus question during this time?
A: No.
Q: I mean a conference, — that there were discussions with individuals, yes, but a conference?
A: No.
Q: Would you have had occasion to know had Professor Handloser participated in such a discussion or conference?
A: I would certainly have learned of it.
Q: May I say either before or afterwards about the results, your Department probably had to be informed of the results?
A: I would at least have learned of it afterwards and have exploited the results.
Q: Does the name Buchenwald mean anything to you, did you ever hear the name Buchenwald in connection with typhus research, or the typhus question at all?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether between the OKH Institute in Cracow and the Concentration Camp Buchenwald, the experimental station for typhus research, there was any connection?
A: There was no connection.
Q: Now, it has been stated that in Buchenwald in Block 46, that the Weigl vaccine in 1943 was frequently issued for vaccinations; here did Buchenwald get this vaccine?
A: Buchenwald can have obtained this vaccine only from the SS medical store. The vaccine distributed was as follows: It was distributed to the individual medical depots, the branches of the Wehrmacht, which distributed them to the groups.
The Army Medical Inspectorate did not know, for example, which troops received the Navy type of vaccine. That was up to the individual branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q: Were you ever in Buchenwald for any other reason?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell what the occasion was, and what happened?
A: At the beginning of 1943, I think, one day my Section Chief told me, that was Professor Schreiber, that there was a special big action being planned in Africa for an area under the threat of yellow fever. For this purpose a large amount of yellow fever vaccine had to be produced immediately, and Professor Eyer in Cracow had been asked to do this, but there were a number of difficulties. The vaccine so far produced was not properly soluble, and was not stable. It was too easily destroyed by changes in temperature. Therefore Commissions of doctors were to be set up to vaccinate the troops on the spot against yellow fever. They and the vaccine were to be sent by plane to Africa. Professor Eyer had solved the difficulties about the solubility of the vaccine by devising a different method of packing. Now, Professor Eyer was to be in a Medical Commission of the SS. He was to show the Medical Commission of the SS how to carry out this method of packing.
Q: Did the SS have a special part in this action?
A: Yes, it was expected that special divisions of the SS would participate, the Leibstandarte and the Reich were mentioned, for example. Well, then Professor Eyer was to go to an SS group near Weimar, and I was to obtain information on this subject and accompany him. We went and members of the SS received us at the Railroad station and took us to the concentration Camp Buchenwald, and we were taken to Ante Room of a barracks where a table was set up, and we met a few SS medical officers where a table was set up, and we met a few SS medical officers to whom Professor Eyer demonstrated his vaccine packing.
So his packing, —he had brought the vaccine with him, a few ampules and he showed how it was to be dissolved. It was a dry product.
Q: The impression is given that this was cardboard box. Will you please describe what this was?
A: The vaccine was formerly packed in a test tube, a glass tube. At the bottom of this glass was the dry vaccine. The glass had to be especially fixed, because the vaccine was kept in a vacuum. It was very difficult to open this ampule without infecting the vaccine and destroying the ampule. Now, Professor Eyer had developed a new type of glass container in the shape of a duck. If I may make, — use the metaphor, the Vaccine was in the body of the duck. In the neck of the duck the glass was under special tension. If one filed this place upon the ampule opened immediately without breaking. Sterile water could be put into it and the vaccine was dissolved by sharing with the pieces of glass which were in the container, and the difficulties which had existed were thus solved. Only the vaccine still had to be kept and transported under refrigeration. Therefore, it had to be flown to Africa.
Q: Then the purpose of the visit was not to test the vaccine, but to demonstrate these ampules?
A: The purpose of the visit was to demonstrate these ampules and the technique of opening them and dissolving the vaccine. This technic was shown to members of the SS and the Medical Corps of the SS, and all of them repeated it in order to guarantee the results. Then as far as I know Dr. Ding vaccinated a few people with this vaccine, five or six men came in and they were vaccinated in the arm with this vaccine. This corresponds to the well known smallpox vaccination, a scratch on the upper arm.
Q: Would one call this vaccination an experiment in the medical sense?
A: No, this was an international known vaccine which is produced in all civilized countries, and has proved its value for many years. It is even less dangerous than smallpox vaccine. Smallpox vaccine can lead to complications, but not yellow fever vaccine. The effects of the vaccine were well known and we had tested it by the usual bacteriological and chemical means, that is we had tested it for sterility and phenol content.
Q: Now, tell us what else you saw in Buchenwald?
A: Our stay in Buchenwald was relatively short, about an hour and a half.
Q: Did you know that Buchenwald was a concentration camp?
A: Before this visit I did not know it.
Q: Did you see the concentration camp inmates?
A: The camp was practically empty. We saw only a few people doing cleaning up work, working on the roads, and so forth, and on inquiry we learned that the inmates were being used for work. Since we were looking at it from the point of view of hygiene, we looked at the kitchens, two or three of the shelters, the sewage system, and that was the end of the visit. When we left we saw a large group of concentration camp inmates marching in. They were singing and were accompanied by mouth organs.
Q: Then what was the impression you got there in Buchenwald?
A: I had the impression that it was a big barracks and from the point of view of the hygienists it was extremely clean, and made a very clear impression.
Q: Now, you went home, that is to Berlin?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you report?
A: I reported to my section chief, Professor Schreiber what I have reported here.
Q: In the talk with Dr. Ding, I assume that you talked with him?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you not discuss what else was done in these rooms in which you demonstrated the ampules?
A: No, that was the entrance of the barracks. I don't know what was the building itself.
Q: Dr. Ding could have told you, for example, that he was conducting typhus research on concentration camp inmates?
A: No, we did not talk about that, and I knew nothing about it.
Q: Was that because the time was short, or was there no opportunity because usually colleagues discuss their work with each other.
A: We had very little time, it is true. I inquired about the condition in the camp because I had seen many other barracks, and he showed me these things as I have reported.
Q: Now, in the Ding Diary which has been submitted to the Tribunal, there is an entry about this visit which you and Dr. Eyer made to Buchenwald on February 8, 1943, but it says something else too, namely, a number of vaccinations with yellow fever were performed beginning with the 9th of February and lasting for several months, and the yellow fever vaccine used for came from the OKH Institute in Cracow; did Professor Eyer or the Medical Inspectorate ever get an assignment to test the vaccine?
A: No, and that would have been quite superfluous, because the effect of the vaccine were known.
Q: But it was done; how did it happen that the Concentration Camp Buchenwald got this vaccine?
A: It could not have come from us, because we did not issue any yellow fever vaccine at all. The vaccine was locked in a special refrigerator and was not used. It might have been possible that in the camp the ampule, which we had opened at that time, was used for vaccinations. Of course, we did not take it along with us when we left, it was useless for us and it had been opened. That is the only explanation that I can think of.
Q: How many doses does such an ampule contain?
A: From such an ampule one can vaccinate fifty to sixty people.
Q: Now, if you left some of the open ampules there when you left, it would have been possible to issue them for vaccinations?
A: I do not know how many people were mentioned in the Document.
Q: There were about sixty. But do you see any sense in the vaccinations?
A: No, there was no reason for it.
Q: Now, witness, is it not true that this vaccine was completely harmless and vaccinations with it had no effects whatsoever, especially in Germany?
A: As I have already said, this vaccine was absolutely harmless, even less harmful than small pox vaccines.
Q: Then no one could die from that?
A: That is quite impossible.
Q: Now, after you returned to Berlin, did you see Professor Handloser?
A: I cannot remember.
Q: Did you report to him about this matter in Buchenwald?
A: No, I certainly did not report to him. I reported to the Section Chief and that was the usual procedure.
Q: But, do you believe that this affair, which you have described, was something which Schreiber would have had to report to Professor Handloser?
A: No, that was quite a subordinate matter, which he took care of through his section chief.
Q: In conclusion, I should like to ask you about a Mr. Klieve; did you know Professor Klieve?
A: Yes, I knew him.
Q: Where did Professor Klieve work?
A: Professor Klieve worked at the Ordnance Office and he also had a certain contact with the Medical Inspectorate.
Q: What did he work on?
A: He worked in the field of counter measures against the so-called bacteriological warfare.
Q: How do you know that they were counter measures?
A: He told me about it and he always said that they were working only on counter measures. For example, there was a Fuehrer order that only defense measures were to be worked on.
Q: You, say a negative order that only defense measures were to be worked on?
A: No work could be done to use bacteriological warfare offensively, there was prohibition against active bacteriological warfare.
Q: Do you have the conviction that that was right; that they were working only on defense measures?
A: Yes, I am convinced of that and it was necessary.
Q: Do you knew that from your own personal knowledge?
A: Professor Klieve told me that our Intelligence had reported that the Russians were planning the use of bacteria and for that reason it was necessary for us to take precautionary measures.
Q: I have no further questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness?
BY DR. FLEMING (Counsel for the Defendant Mrugowsky):
Q: Witness, is it true that at the beginning of the campaign in the East in 1941 a typhus protection for the German troops by protective vaccination was not provided for?
A: There were great difficulties, the medical personnel and the doctors were vaccinated.
Q: And the troops; it was not possible to vaccinate the troops for what reason?
A: There was no vaccine available.
Q: Is it true that at the beginning of the campaign in the East, the German troops had no protection against lice?
A: There was no effective protection. We had a number of delousing establishments, which were not big enough; the chemicals were not adequate and had not been developed far enough.
Q: Then an effective delousing method could be developed only during the war?
A: Yes, the really effective chemical was developed only toward the end of the war; that was called Lauseto and it contained the same substance as the American DDT powder.
Q: Under these circumstances, at the beginning of the war, was the typhus danger in the East very great?
A: It was a great danger.
Q: Then, you say, under these circumstances, from the medical and military point of view, it was extremely important to have an effective protection against typhus?
A: Yes, I must say so.
Q: Now, I come to another subject. Do you know that after large quantities of gangrene serum had been administered, there were deaths and shock among the patients due to the phenol contents?
A: Yes, the so-called phenol contents was mentioned as phenol-shock.
Q: Do you know whether for this reason there was an effort to have industries remove the phenol contents from the gangrene serum?
A: Yes, I know about that, especially since French firms produced this serum without phenol, but industry ostensibly could not work without phenol since they did not have enough trained personnel during the war and there was therefore danger of contamination by bacteria.
Q: Was gangrene a frequent complication in wounds?
A: Yes, it was quite frequent in the field.
Q: Must one therefore say that the problem of preventing gangrene, from the medical, as well as from the military point of view, can be called extremely important?
A: Yes, one must say so.
Q: Regarding the ampules with yellow fever serum, you said before that the ampules which had been opened were left behind in Buchenwald; you said before your greatest difficulties there were in storing and keeping this serum. Would you tell the Tribunal how long, in your opinion, the serum could be kept in the ampule?
A: That depends on how they were handled; and if they were immediately closed and put in freezing temperature they might be kept one day.
Q: I am thinking of the ampules which you left behind in Buchenwald; were they closed immediately after they were opened or were they laid to one side?
A: They were lying on the table.
Q: And about how long were they lying there?
A: I cannot say. I was in the room a half an hour at the most.
Q: Well, witness, you spoke of passive defense measures against bacteriological warfare and you said that our agents had reported that Russia was preparing for an active warfare with poison?
A: No, I did not hear that.
Q: Now, finally something about vaccinations; was it customary in the army before the general introduction of a new vaccine first to test the effect of the vaccine on a small group of persons and above all the reactions in order to know what the compatibility of the vaccine was?
A: If it was actually a new type of vaccine this was done on volunteers, members of the Army and members of the Military Medical Academy, that is students.
Q: Would you considered it careless or irresponsible if such a new vaccine were used, relying on the statements made by the producing firm about compatibility, without testing the new vaccine in any Arm on a small group?
A: That would depend on who produced it. If it was a well known firm whose reliability had been proved, I would not consider such a test necessary. In other cases, yes.
DR. FLEMING: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination of this witness by any defense counsel? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q: Witness, let's get a bit better idea of your position in the medical service of the army. To whom were you directly subordinated?
A: I was directly subordinate to Professor Schreiber.
Q: And who did you have working under you?
A: Under me, Dr. Scholz, who was mentioned before, and Later after Dr. Scholz went into the field there was Dr. Keller, Dr. Peetschke, and a pharmacist, Dr. Lehmann, the latter only to a limited extent.
Q: What problems — medical problems —were you particularly concerned with between the years '40 and '44?
A: I was only there until the year '44 in the medical inspectorate, 1940 to 1944. The main problem was the production of typhus vaccines and methods of combatting lice.
Q: What sort of contact did you have with Handloser? Was it frequent and of a personal character?
A: No. Professor Handloser was my supreme superior, I made no direct reports to him, only later when Professor Schreiber was changed as section chief, and the new section chief was not a hygienist. Then I reported directly to Professor Handloser after reporting to the chief of staff.
Q: When did this changed occur? When did you start reporting directly to Handloser?
A: Unfortunately I do not know the date when Professor Schreiber left the Army Medical Inspectorate, and I don't think I can find it here. But that can probably be found in the records.
Q: Do you remember when Schreiber left the Army Medical Inspectorate?
A: No, I do not remember the year.
A: Why did he leave? Do you know?
A: Professor Schreiber became commanding officer of Instruction Group "C" of the Military Medical Academy, and at the same time he became a member of the Reich Research Council.
Q: That doesn't mean that he left the Army Medical Inspectorate, if he became instructor of the Military Medical Academy, does it?
A: Yes, these are two quite separate agencies. The Military Medical Academy was an agency under the Army Medical Inspectorate. In order to become commanding officer of the instruction group he had to resign from the Medical Inspectorate.
Q: But the Military Medical Academy was subordinated to the Army Medical Inspectorate, was it not?
A: Yes, that is true, but Professor Schreiber was not directly under the Army Medical Inspectorate. But he was under the commander of the academy and he was under the Medical Inspectorate.
Q: Isn't it true that certain hygienists in Germany hold the opinion that animal experimentation with typhus is not efficacious because of the fact that 40%, roughly of the experimental animals have resistance to the disease?
A: I know nothing of this opinion. The vaccines were tested in the state institute for experimental therapy in Frankfurt. We had nothing to be with the methods used.
Q: Witness, are you swearing to this Tribunal that you have never read in any medical journal published in Germany, or have never heard from any report, that the opinion was held by certain hygienists that animal experimentation with typhus was not too good, not too reliable, because a good percentage of the animals had resistance to the disease? Are you swearing that you have never heard of that opinion, read any reports about it, or read any articles in medical journals?
A: In this form, in my opinion, that is not true. The method of testing in the state institute was questioned by various agencies, but not the fact that such tests can be conducted on animals at all.
Q: Witness, I don't think you have answered the question. Is there any scientific opinion that animal experimentation with typhus is not reliable? Now answer yes or no.
A: I do not know of this opinion.
Q: Then if the Defendant Karl Brant expressed such an pinion to this Tribunal, he didn't know what he was talking about? He advised the Tribunal that he thought it was probably was necessary to experiment on human beings with typhus as it is with malaria. That is not your opinion?
A: It is not my opinion that typhus experiments must be conducted on human beings.
Q: Do you know whether certain experimental animals have resistance typhus? Is it customary that often they do?
A: In guinea pigs—and these are the animals concerned—there are certain difficulties, since in series of experiments the guinea gigs sometimes without being infected with typhus, have increased temperatures, but for this purpose a large number are taken to eliminate such inaccuracies.
Q: Criticisms were leveled at the experimental methods of the institute at Frankfurt that you have already mentioned?
A: Industry sometimes questioned these testing methods, since industry itself called the vaccine good while the state institute said that it was less effective, and we therefore rejected it. This was the vaccine that I mentioned before.
Q: Well, you mentioned something about this Bearing Works, the vaccine produced by their institute at Marburg being made from the embryo in a chicken egg. You weren't speaking about their total production, were you? They did produce vaccines developed from the egg yolk, didn't they?
A: Yes, there are two methods of reduction. In the first place the embryo is used. Then a much larger quantity of vaccine is obtained. In the second place the embryo is not used. In our opinion this produced a more effective but a smaller quantity. We used only this latter type without the use of the embryo on the basis of the recommendation of the state institute.
Q: Well, I don't think you want to leave the impression with the Tribunal that the Army Medical Inspectorate was rejecting all of the typhus vaccine produced by the Bearing Works. That is not true, is it?
A: No, I did not say that. I say only that there were two vaccines from the Bearing Works. One vaccine was quite good, and another using the embryo, which we rejected on the basis of this opinion, which was considered less effective, and we did not use it.
Q: Do you know a man named Eugen Hagen?
A: Yes.
Q: He held, the same opinion that you did about this typhus vaccine produced from the chicken embryo. He went so far as to write a letter objecting to it. Do you knew anything about that?
A: No.
Q: What contacts did you have with Hagen?
A: I had no contacts with him at all. I met him on some occasion since I was a hygienist. I know that he was a professor at Strassburg.
Q: You knew he was working on typhus vaccines, didn't you?
A: When he was at the Robert Koch Institute he was working on the virus field.
Q: Didn't you know that he continued his vaccine experiments, typhus vaccine experiments, after he left the Robert Koch Institute at Strassburg?
A: No.
Q: You have never been to Strassburg to see him?
A: No.
Q: Did you usually attend the meetings of the consulting physicians of the army?
A: I attended a few meetings, but not all of them.
Q: Which ones did you attend?
A: I cannot say for certain. I don't know any mere which specific meetings I attended.
Q: There were about five, witness. Can't you remember which ones you attended?
A: I remember that I did not attend a meeting at Hohen-Luechen.
Q: Well, did you attend all of them at the Military Medical Academy where you were working?
A: No, not all of them. The whole personnel of the Inspectorate couldn't leave for days. I did not attend the whole meetings. I attended parts of the
THE PRESIDENT: It is now 12:30 o'clock. The Tribunal will recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)