1947-02-20, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. May it please your Honors, the defendant Oberheuser, having open excused, is absent for the balance of this afternoon.

DR. PRlBILLA: Mr. President, I should like your indulgence; and I should like to call your attention again to Document 1, Exhibit 1. I was so brief in my examination that I should only like to refer once more to what section is coming now. I have finished my questions concerning the activity of Prof. Rostock in the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, to the end of the year 1943; and now I am beginning, with questions concerning the activity indicates by the small arrow in the middle at the bottom.

Q: Prof. Rostock, you have known the defendant Karl Brandt for sometime?

A: I've known him ever since he was assistant at the hospital at Bochum.

Q: Did you have contact with Karl Brandt constantly during the war?

A: We saw each other on very rare occasions. He was located in the Fuehrer's headquarters; and I was at the front with the army and also in Berlin.

Q: Were you informed about what he did during the war up to the end of 1943?

A: No.

Q: What do you know about the decree of the 28th of July, 1942, concerning the medical and health system? This is Document NO-O8O, Exhibit 5, of the prosecution.

A: From this decree I found out that there were difficulties with regard to medical material and also personnel; and of course it interested me to know that Karl Brandt had received an assignment in that respect.

Q: On the basis of the decree of 1942 did you take over any official activity for Karl Brandt?

A: No, I did not take over any official activities.

Q: Did you do any work for him unofficially?

A: Mr. Brandt has already stated here that he worked on the planning for the reconstruction of the Berlin University clinics and the medical institute. He was working on the establishment of special hospital facilities. These were evacuation hospitals for the bombed out cities. Then occasionally with regards to the establishment of these hospitals I was asked about these questions.

Furthermore, the limitations of production began around this period of time with regard to medical instruments, X-ray apparatus, medicines; and I was also asked questions in this respect on various occasions.

Q: But otherwise you did not know what Karl Brandt was doing?

A: No.

Q: How did it happen that on the basis of the decree of the 5th of September 1943, this Document NO-081, Prosecution Exhibit 6, you were given work for Karl Brandt?

A: After the decree had been issued he approached me with a request.

Q: What reasons influenced you in spite of the work which you already had to help him?

A: I had seen the shrinking which constantly grew out of the research possibilities with regard to science and medicine. I had further soon the attempts which could be traced back to Conti, not only to involve the German medical profession in politics but also the entire medical science. I consider this a wrong development. In addition to this there were some especially acute problems. First of all, there were the attempts which also originated with Conti at the time in 1943, the fall, a close all the universities and medical faculties in Germany. We were able to prevent this at the very last minute.

Then I heard that the lecturing facilities for physicians and the research possibilities of the scientists were deteriorating more and more as a result, of the fact that the medical press as well as the production of books with regard to scientific subjects and student training and text books became small and smaller. Finally I knew that lecturing for the German scientists about the experiences collected abroad had came to a complete standstill.

Q: You were already head of the Surgical Clinic, Generalarzt in the Army, Consulting Surgeon, Dean of the Medical Faculty at Berlin. If, in addition, you took over such a job for Commissioner General Brandt, was there not a certain ambition to be still more important in Germany?

A: There was no personal ambition involved as far as the scientific laboratory work was concerned. That did not cause me to occupy this position. I was trying to help German science in a time of emergency as it has rarely be seen, as far as I was able to do that. I was trying to improve the knowledge which was available and to save it until such a time as peace would again in existence. The sacrifice which I made at the time was perhaps greater than can generally be assumed. Afterwards it can perhaps be said that perhaps it would have been better if I had occupied myself with my own scientific work, and there was plenty of it, and which was destroyed in the last few days of the war.

In the many years of my clinical activity I had collected a large amount of experience with regards to the pathology of the joints and this was to be compiled into a greater work. It consisted of an extensive study of literature, of case histories, x-ray charts, microscopic preparation and all this has now been burned and the book will never be written. However even if I did not succeed in everything which I was striving for in my position, I still believe that my activity has done some good because if, during the last few years of the war, the bases for research have not been completely destroyed and if not everything has been described as unimportant and has been destroyed and burned then I believe that I have played a certain part in this respect — namely, in preserving it. However, that I would ever be accused, on account of my activity, or that I would be exposed to such monstrous accusations, I have never even dreamed of that.

Q: At the beginning of your activity did you get a written statement from Brandt, or a notice of appointment, or anything like that?

A: Such a document was in existence. Today I cannot clearly say, under oath, if it was signed. Therefore I cannot answer you with yes or no. It possible that it was not signed. I did not place any special emphasis on such administrative details.

Q: Did you have the impression that by the decree of September 1943 a science and research in Germany was out under you?

A: No, not at all. Mr. Lammers has expressed the fact very clearly. In my opinion, that also in the field of science and research Brandt was only told to solve and to carry out special assignments, as it has also been stated in the decrees which have been mentioned here so often. Minister Lammers be likewise stated that it had not been intended to give Brandt such a leading top position. He further stated that his budget was purposely kept at a very low level and that for this reason alone it was not possible to carry out such an extensive activity.

Perhaps I can explain this in the best way if I tell you how many collaborators I had. I had four medical students, who furthermore worked at the clinic, and I had about two or three clerks. That instituted my whole staff and I believe that this indicates clearly that with these five men, let us say, and three women, I could not exercise with this staff any large activity which was to extend over the whole medical field in Germany.

Q: You spoke of several decrees. I may correct that. At the moment you are dealing only with the decree of September 1942.

A: Yes, that is the one I am referring to.

Q: Now on the basis of this appointment and this decree what was your activity in effect? How did it begin and what did you deal with?

A: Aside from the beginning to where this acute problem of closing the schools of higher learning, I began in the autumn of 1942, in the offices in my clinic with the help of some of my assistants and for the time being who one secretary, I began my work with regard to the whole scientific situation in Germany. This work made relatively little progress because I had a large number of other things to do also and the constancy air raid alarms in Berlin also were not suitable to guarantee a continuity of the work.

In order to carry out my work I obtained a list of personnel and literature of the university clinics and I had them evaluated by my collaborators. In this way obtained a certain insight into the situation at the universities. However it was much more difficult to find out if now the individual people were actually working at their institutes at home or if they had been conscript for military service and they were working abroad.

Therefore, the insight was able to obtain was lacking in many respects. Of course no activity cou te carried out in this field for the time being.

Q: Was anything changed when — I believe it was in February 1944 — you exercised this activity no longer in your clinic but in the office in Belitz near Berlin?

A: The work at Belitz was, of course, carried out much more slowly, the other hand the separation of the clinic and the dean's office was very hampering, especially since the telephone connections failed rather frequently and so I had to drive to Berlin by car almost an hour every day and back.

Q: Please say in a little more detail what you actually did in this time; what your work was.

A: At the time I had the impression that special research was the main interest and that, of course, is understandable in times of war. Everybody was trying, as quickly as possible, to be able to achieve some special success, and they all wanted to be able to submit corresponding reports. This was done in particular by young, inexperienced men who were lacking the supervising eye and the guiding hand of an experienced chief. This development was seen to be very dangerous to me because without a sufficiently broad basis no research can be carried out for the duration. It must then lead to failures eventually. As a result of this, I directed my special attention directly to basic research and I tried to carry it on until the end of the war.

Q: Can you tell us the difference between basic research and special research?

A: This could perhaps be done best by means of an example. First of all from natural science and technic. The construction of an effective atom bomb is Zweckforschung, which is special research, research for the basis and the laws of the spontaneous combustion of the atoms and the arbitrary destruction of atoms, that is basic research. Take an example for medicine, research about the effect of a virus, and the changes which it affects in the body of animal and human beings, that is basic research; and the establishment of an effective vaccine against this virus and effective treatment of a disease, that is special research, Zweckforschung.

Q: And now with your work you tried to promote and maintain basic research.

A: Yes.

Q: How did you do that?

A: The first thing I did was that the individual scientists in certain fields were called to come in conferences, and I have organized these conferences quite systematically. For example, they took place as to the field of penicillin and the microscopic electronic, for example with the occasion of the last conference, which lasted two days, not only medical men gave lectures, but also chemists, physicists, scientists, textile specialists biologicalists and all other specialized people. The purpose of such a conference was not to give special research assignments, but it was to give general ideas in these fields, and similar discussions were under preparation about research on the brain current, on the tissue cultures and Spor element, and ultra sound.

Q: Perhaps I may interrupt for a moment. These difficult words, if I understand you correctly, express certain things which are necessary in very civilized state as a prerequisite and basis if any research work is to be done at all?

A: They were problems which not only in my opinion but also in the opinion of a large number of other people would probably play a rather important part in the future. But that was not the only thing, it was just as the general horizon was to be extended also the tools of the scientists had to he maintained and improved and it succeeded, and I have already stated this previously, before, with regards to preserving medical literature and the production of books.

Of course, at the time no scientific work was practically, possible, and also informing German scientists about the results of research abroad. This was also in the early stages at the end of 1944.

Q: May I interrupt you for a moment, Professor; were all these things which were the prerequisites for research, were they endangered at that time, and would it have been very bad if all these things had been stopped?

A: The danger was very great. That was at a period of time when the literature and books were not printed any more in Germany, and we only succeeded because we were able to prove that the paper which was used for the medical journals — there were still approximately 60 to 70 in Germany — that they used much less paper in the course of one month than the paper used by a single edition of a daily journal or newspaper, and perhaps it would be characteristic to point out that the medical decisions were not so decisive so that time than the War, the scientific termination as to the amount of paper used.

Q: Then that argument helped you better than the scientific argument?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, in the winter of 1943 and 1944 did this activity to preserve basic research take up very much of your time?

A: In this activity much of my time was used, still I could not deal with any specific tasks on the special research. I want to point out once more the number of my collaborators which I have mentioned previously, and my office was kept in such a modest frame and with such a limited budget that I have to limit, myself to the look question which I have mentioned here. I further more know myself that special research was already being furthered and supervised by other agencies, and that furthermore the necessities of the war were limited te a certain number.

Q: In the chart, Exhibit No. 1, you described the proportion of your activity for the Reich Commissioner; you kept it more or less oven. You say here it was about 15 percent of your daily work; was it not so that from time to time the activity was much greater or was it always as you have drawn it here, did your work in the clinic continue fully?

A: Of course the work in the clinic comes to a full extent. Of course, it has happened once in a while that I was unable to come to Berlin for several days, that I had some special work elsewhere. This description is for the average of a week, but you cannot concentrate that on one individual day.

Q: But, on the whole, it was like that?

A: Yes, on the whole it was like that.

Q: And you said that three or four of your assistants worked on these questions; does this chart refer to the activities of your assistants and did they also work at the clinic?

A: They also worked at the clinic, but on weekdays I was in Berlin almost every day and at least two or three of my men stayed in Berlin, but they returned in the evening.

Q: Was the clinic in Berlin?

A: Yes, at the clinic. In the evening we returned to Belitz and then general discussions took place; this was in mostly in the evening.

Q: Now, were there any written official instructions for this activity issued by the Commissioner General?

A: No, I told Brandt of my opinion and he left me alone in the execution. I had drafted for myself such a service regulation on one occasion, but I did not like the wording because for the formulation of such regulations I lacked the administrative juristic experience and so that draft never went beyond it being placed in my desk drawer.

Q: This draft is perhaps not important. I should like to ask you if you know the decree, the decree of September, 1943? This decree mentioned medical science and research and your office was called the Office for Science and Research. At that time, from the time of your appointment on, did you consider yourself as a sort of dictator in the field of science and research?

A: No, I never did that. First of all every legal basis was lacking for this and all orders from Brandt to me were lacking and also, of course, any personal tendency for that was lacking too.

Q: And you did not consider the decree in that sense either?

A: No, I did not understand it to be in this way. In my opinion, only one person can want to be a dictator and that is one who does not have the slightest idea about real science. You cannot tell anybody on that kind of work to reach a certain goal in regard to research. You may stimulate or suggest to him that he do something of that kind and if he complies with the suggestion, then you can further lend a helping hand in a material field, but my motives I have already explained.

I can add in this respect that my work was carried out in the face of quite a number of difficulties. I was not able to give any orders at all. I had to try to gain the confidence of the people step by step. I had to try to gain influence. Even in a state system and with a dictatorship, it is still impossible to become a scientific dictator, because the basis of all scientific progress lies in the critics, also in criticism toward things which one already thinks had been proved. Such an attitude excludes any subordination or mental subordination under a dictator.

A: Could you not at least appear as a promoter of research, did you not have a free hand financially, did you not have large funds at your disposal?

A: No, we did not have one cent for anything of this kind.

Q: Karl Brandt in an interrogation said and a record of this interrogation has been submitted by the prosecution here, it is Document No. 1730, Prosecution Exhibit 441. Karl Brandt said that you had a part in discussions concerning the economic aspects what was that about?

A: This was the limitation of the production of medical equipment and medicine, which I have already previously mentioned, but in this respect I obtained statements by people acquainted with the matter about the complete of questions with which they were dealing. Perhaps this could be explained best by means of an example. If perhaps because of the lack of material, only a part of the Sanisil was still available, then I turned to a number of persons acquainted with the matter and I described the situation to them. I requested them to inform me from the medical point of view what drugs were by all means necessary, which ones were desirable and which ones were not necessary and then the answers which I received were the basis for my negotiations with the pharmaceutical industries, however, it was not so that these clinical requests always had to be filled and complied with. It happened frequently that for example a drug, which we had described as dispensable, that this drug could be produced very easily, because it had accumulated as a by-product of some other product.

In such a case, the clinical interests had to stay behind the interests of production. Of course, this was a compromise, but nothing else could be done in time of war. A similar problem existed with regard to x-ray equipment, surgical instruments, etc.

Q: But your contribution was always from the medical side?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, there was a period of time when, in addition to what you have said, you tried to get a picture of the specialized, the practical research, which was being carried on; when was that and what was the cause of this?

A: That was in the middle of the summer of 1944. At the time the Ministry for Armament and War Production wanted to discontinue the entire scientific research, because they wanted to save personnel and material. I considered this unjustified and at least I tried to prevent this in the most important fields and therefore I turned to the Medical Inspector of the branches of the Wehrmacht, to the Reich Research Council and also to the Reich Office for the Extension of Economy. I requested these agencies to inform me of what research was still being carried out.

Q: Then you went to all agencies, which to your knowledge had research institutions, etc? I mean also the universities belong there too?

A: Self-evident, including, the universities. If in time of war same really wanted to engage seriously in research, then he, not for the reason of scientific research itself, but really for pressing war requirements, he had to receive a research assignment in order to obtain the necessary research material. May I perhaps explain here why a research assignment was always necessary?

Q: Speak a little slower, please.

A: Actually now if a scientist occupied himself with some problem or other, he get together with his students on the matter in his clinic or institute. In time or war, he had to have a certain paper. In Germany, whn he was told by some agency, the Reich Research Council or the Research Office for the Extension of Economy or some ministral agency, that he was occupying himself with this or that special field of researched.

The progress of such a research assignment was that if he wanted to obtain some apparatus or other equipment or test tubes, he went there with his research assignment. For example to obtain test tubes, he had to receive a directive from the competent economic agency so that he was able to obtain this equipment. Furthermore, if one of the agencies who could conscript personnel in Germany and that was not only the Wehrmacht, but that also was the police and some other agencies, desired to conscript personnel, he could say that he had the research assignment and further that the people could not be conscripted as these people were needed because they had one, two or three research assignments to carry out. That is why these research assignments were requested in time of war.

Q: And you knew the agencies which could issue such research assignments?

A: Well, today I must say that I did not know all of them.

Q: But at that time you went to such agencies?

A: Yes.

Q: And your own office was not one of such agencies?

A: No, we were unable to do that.

Q: Did you approach these offices in writing?

A: Yes.

Q: How did such a letter at that time read?

A: I cannot remember the exact wording.

Q: Did you issue an order?

A: No.

Q: Did you get answers?

A: Yes, of course, answers arrived.

Q: What did they write?

A: We were informed — it would be best for me to give an example of how these answers were given. I shall give you an example as it is contained in a document in the files here. It was called Research Assignment of such-and-such a number, Schemilski, Innsbruck, Galvanic Narcosis. That is an example which is contained in the documents. Then a certain priority; sometimes also the evaluation of the assignment. Well, perhaps it was states he received 1,000 or 4,000 marks for expenses incurred.

Q: You say that the priority, the degree of urgency, was also indicated? Would you please explain briefly what that is?

A: The word "Dringlichkeitsstufe" (priority) must be given two meanings. At one time it was a technical term on the war economic field, which stated that the person in question, as I have already stated, was given material assistance. This priority was determined by the war economic agency by Dr. Grau, but I did not have anything to do with that. However, the were "Dringlichkeitsstufe" (priority) —

Q: May I interrupt you a moment? You said very precisely, "Indications of the priority."

Then it said something there — Priority One, Two, Three, Four. The numbers were given; I know that. All I want to find out if that the assignments themselves issued by the various institutions in themselves hid a different value, a different urgency. If I am correctly inform this was indicated by a number, and if you say here that the priority was indicated then you mean this number, is that right?

A: Yes, that is correct, because this formerly economic number was also given a certain number.

Q: I was of the opinion that this number, this priority number, was assigned by the agency which gave the assignment, but from what you have just said, I am beginning to doubt. It seems that the assignment was given by an institution and that this priority, this preference, was given by another agency.

A: The priority was determined by the war economic agency. If other agencies were also able to determine such a priority, that I do not know. However, I have only seen these priority ratings but it is also possible the the Reich Office for the Extension of the Economy was able to do that, but I am not exactly informed on the subject.

Q: What did you do with the information about research assignments which you received from the various institutions?

A: The answers which I received were compiled into a research card index and then one of my collaborators, Dr. Christensen, took care of it. This card index was to help me to give information to questions which might arise and, furthermore, I wanted to be able to give documentary evidence to the armament industry that I would is able under certain circumstances to recognize if any dual work was being done at two different places.

Q: Was it so that from this time on everyone doing research work in Germany first had to inquire of you or report to you?

A: No, nobody had to consult us and nobody had to submit any reports to us. Practically, I have only received reports about the results of research. I received them semi-annually from the Reich Research Council cause it issued a printed booklet which contained short reports — about so long reports — and this booklet did not only contain information about medicine but also about the other fields of physics and technique and whatever existed, and I have never turned for such requests to the individual scientists because I would have considered this an unproductive extension of what we used to call in a derogatory manner "paper warfare".

Q: Then you did not issue any such order to these agencies?

A: No.

Q: On the basis of this knowledge did you interfere in any research. For example, did you stop any research assignment?

A: No, I did not do that. I did not have any authority to do that. To the agencies which were interested I gave the information that the Ministry for Armament wanted to intervene, and we discussed what fields we would classify as necessary or which were urgent in some way. And in this sense I had something to do with the priority or the urgency. It was so that we classified a dozen fields or there may have been three or four more which, in spite of the situation, we still considered necessary for research. And these one dozen subjects I submitted to the Ministry for Armament and also the other agencies which were interested.

Q: This subject is somewhat difficult. You have stated that for judging an assignment from the joint of view of war economy it was decisive to determine the priority which was set by a number?

A: Yes.

Q: A number was placed on the assignment?

A: Yes.

Q: You have said that only other agencies could issue this priority?

A: Yes.

Q: And if you say now that you advocated — that you supported an assignment because of its urgency, then, if I understand you correctly, this was only done by exerting influence on the competent agencies?

A: Yes, that is the correct way to express it. And perhaps another example would be appropriate. In this list of the 12, 14, or 15 urgent fields it was not explicitly stated that the research of Mr. Mueller on some subject was urgent and several hundreds of assignments may have been given in this field.

What I described as urgent was not limited to an assignment for one person which was laid down on paper but only to a larger field which merit with science.

Q: I believe I have understood you how. This was a natter of general influence which you exercised as a scientist. You have just said that certain fields were more important than others but the decisions as to which individual assignment was important was made by others?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: This priority number was issued by other agencies?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: And, the person working in a certain field, he needed this priority number in order to accomplish anything?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Do you remember whether Lost experiments were ever mentioned?

A: I cannot answer this question clearly under oath here with yes or no but since during the war we always had to count on the use of chemical warfare agents my belief is that this field was listed under perhaps a dozen subjects.

Q: But if I understand you correctly, this was done in the same form as you have just said, as a general subject?

A: Only as a general subject.

THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of defendant Oberheuser, excused since the afternoon recess on account of her illness. The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)